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Omnipotent_One
2011-12-04, 08:24 PM
Since when can non-intelligent magic items have alignments? I don't think the creator's alignment makes any difference at all.

Don't understand why Elan is so opposed to free items.

Draconi Redfir
2011-12-04, 08:27 PM
If they are made by sacrificing the souls of angels to the demons of the underworld and drinking the blood of newborn babies, i think that constitutes as evil.


The item itself may not be evil, but the process that went into making it was, so that counts.

Mutant Sheep
2011-12-04, 08:28 PM
Because it was probably made with a ritual where the acts involved WOULD make the ritual-er have an evil alignment (if they didn't already)? If I gave you a XBox 720, but I got it by slaughtering a million puppies, would you go "oh sure, thanks!" or be totally disgusted by the fact I just killed a million cute, fluffy puppies?:smalltongue::smallamused:

Hiesatai
2011-12-04, 09:07 PM
If they are made by sacrificing the souls of angels to the demons of the underworld and drinking the blood of newborn babies, i think that constitutes as evil.


The item itself may not be evil, but the process that went into making it was, so that counts.

Right, just like vegetarians and meat. I'm sure that if there were a way of obtaining it without death being involved, they'd have no problem.

So it's a lot like Tarquin offering a vegetarian a turkey sandwich and them denying it, opting for tofurkey instead. Tastes the same, but one was made without killing someone

NerfTW
2011-12-04, 09:27 PM
Since when can non-intelligent magic items have alignments? I don't think the creator's alignment makes any difference at all.

Don't understand why Elan is so opposed to free items.

He's referencing this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0762.html), as in an item created through evil means. Not to mention taking an item that was gained through an evil act. Not that the item itself has an alignment.

Kish
2011-12-04, 09:28 PM
Since when can non-intelligent magic items have alignments?

Check the eleventh panel, and Tarquin's implicit concession that yes, that actually is how he made the Ring of Regeneration he's offering.

For that matter, check how he actually got the carpet he's giving Elan.


Don't understand why Elan is so opposed to free items.
Elan is not Haley. Would Haley take a Ring of Regeneration made by torturing someone to death? I don't know, but at least she's established as greedy. Elan? Isn't.

RndmNumGen
2011-12-04, 09:49 PM
Holy and Unholy Water(Or heck, Holy and Unholy weapon enhancements) are obviously Good or Evil, but they're not intelligent. Skeletons and zombie are evil, but not intelligent. Something doesn't need to be intelligent to have an alignment.

It's not unreasonable, then, to have a Ring of Regeneration be Evil if it was created through Evil means. The act of regenerating may not be evil, but the method of creating it was.

denthor
2011-12-04, 10:20 PM
The above is all true. Accepting an item that was created by an evil ritual or torture or created by an evil person makes you at least somewhat tolerant of there evil ways.

The million puppy question was very enlightening

Oh mutant sheep do I have to pay shipping on that X-box? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0081.html)

with an e
2011-12-04, 10:23 PM
I think Elan is referring more to the method of making rather than the alignment of the item (or the associated energy type of the item), though we do know that items in the OotS can acquire alignment based properties through Xykon's crown (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0202.html).

Dracarot
2011-12-04, 10:30 PM
THat's also not to say if the ring of regeneration was possibly intelligent, any magic item could theoretically have intelligence if it's maker so desired. While we can't confirm or deny it there is every possibility that the particular ring of regeneration Tarquin offered Elan was sentient, and evilly alighned. Again can't confirm or deny if the ring was unintelligent so we'll probably never know.

NerfTW
2011-12-04, 10:31 PM
I think Elan is referring more to the method of making rather than the alignment of the item (or the associated energy type of the item), though we do know that items in the OotS can acquire alignment based properties through Xykon's crown (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0202.html).

We don't know that for sure. That's just Durkon's assumption. And while Xykon did say it was a completely non magical item, there's still the fact that he bothered to steal just that out of a magical museum, and Rich made a point of having him take it back from Roy.

So far, I'm thinking it's not just a crown, despite Xykon's statements. The evil aura makes it even more likely.

But still, the strip was referring to the method used to make the item, NOT it's alignment or any sort of aura.


THat's also not to say if the ring of regeneration was possibly intelligent, any magic item could theoretically have intelligence if it's maker so desired. While we can't confirm or deny it there is every possibility that the particular ring of regeneration Tarquin offered Elan was sentient, and evilly alighned. Again can't confirm or deny if the ring was unintelligent so we'll probably never know.

As Elan states in the strip, he very definitely was not referring to some possible intelligence, simply the method (torturing someone to death) used to create it.

Ancalagon
2011-12-05, 01:35 AM
Don't understand why Elan is so opposed to free items.

It's an ethical question.

But discussing that comes down to "Is it morally justified to take and use a magic ring for good that was made with evil means and selfish motivations?" and those discussions are forbidden.

To cut it short and do without that discussion: Elan (whatever the reasons!) thinks it's plainly wrong to use such an item and as thus refuses it.

You could say that his refusal of the ring was actually the refusal of his father's ways (and if the first says something symbolic about the latter is something we could actually discuss). I think it is, so it's not actually as much about the thing itself but more about the concepts behind its creator.

derfenrirwolv
2011-12-05, 03:19 AM
Transference. We often attribute qualities to inanimate objects based on their origins and usages, for example people will oo and ahh over George Washingtons sword or express sadness in places where great tragedies took place. In our world this is a psychological process, in D&D its often a very real phenomenon.

How would you feel about using a computer powered by the heart of a forsaken child? Sure you can tear up the battlegrounds with it but it screams when you overclock it..

Manga Shoggoth
2011-12-05, 05:22 AM
So far, I'm thinking it's not just a crown, despite Xykon's statements. The evil aura makes it even more likely.

If I remember the rules correctly, an item in the possession of a strongly evil character for a long period of time will develop an evil aura. This is what happened with the crown.

Now, as to any powers, Roy assumed it has some sort of powers since Xykon went to the trouble of stealing it. However, Xykon doesn't think so. He just stole it because ot "looked Badass".

hewhosaysfish
2011-12-05, 07:54 AM
It's an ethical question.

But discussing that comes down to "Is it morally justified to take and use a magic ring for good that was made with evil means and selfish motivations?" and those discussions are forbidden.

Really?
I know we can't bring real-life historical examples or religious beliefs into it but we can still debate ethics and morality (at least insofar as it pertains to the characters in the strip). Otherwise we'd have to get rid of all the "Is Belkar Still Evil?" and "Was Roy Morally Justified In Attacking Miko?" threads and this forum would be cut down to half the size.

Conuly
2011-12-05, 09:46 AM
Don't understand why Elan is so opposed to free items.

Because his conscience outweighs his pragmatism. Really, it's Elan, of course his conscience outweighs his pragmatism! Everything outweighs his pragmatism, including his puppet!


Otherwise we'd have to get rid of all the "Is Belkar Still Evil?" and "Was Roy Morally Justified In Attacking Miko?" threads and this forum would be cut down to half the size.

I'm pretty sure we already DID get rid of all the 'Was Roy Morally Justified In Attacking Miko" threads. And if we haven't gotten rid of the "Belkar - Still Evil?" threads, well, darn, I wish we would already!

Sethis
2011-12-05, 09:53 AM
Also, in the Book of Vile Darkness, there are rules for crafting magical items and bypassing exp and gold costs by using the souls of sacrificial victims which are irrevocably annihilated by the process.

It's about as evil as you can get in D&D. Not just killing a person, but annihilating their immortal soul, preventing both ressurection and the rightful afterlife. The items created radiate evil for a reason.

rbetieh
2011-12-05, 09:57 AM
Many people believe that if you buy a product that was researched using animal cruelty, you support animal cruelty. Thats elans belief, he want to be good, like Roy and Haley, but he wants to be good in the "right" way.... a personality trait he shares with another character in the strip (although that one wants to be "evil")

Valyrian
2011-12-05, 10:55 AM
Does it really matter if the ring (or any other item) has a D&D alignment? Not every aspect of the world can be expressed in game terms. What counts is that Tarquin obtained his item(s) by making people suffer, and Elan wants no part in that.

Seems pretty logical and exactly what a well played Good character would do (arguing that the rules don't say the item is evil so it's okay to use it is something the paladin from Durkon's previous party in OotPCs would do, and we know how the Giant thinks about that).

For Haley, I don't know. She's greedy, and also pretty pragmatic. Also, only "good-ish".

Chronos
2011-12-05, 01:15 PM
Because his conscience outweighs his pragmatism. Really, it's Elan, of course his conscience outweighs his pragmatism! Everything outweighs his pragmatism, including his puppet!And, for Elan, his conscience outweighs pretty much everything else. Remember, this is the same guy who refused to kill Nale because he's the good twin, not the neutral twin.

rbetieh
2011-12-05, 01:17 PM
And, for Elan, his conscience outweighs pretty much everything else. Remember, this is the same guy who refused to kill Nale because he's the good twin, not the neutral twin.

You know, Elan would have made an excellent Paladin, if his Alignment restrictions and serial un-seriousness didnt allow it. His most evil act has been trying to smite Roy with the power of Banjo the Clown. :smallsmile:

Ancalagon
2011-12-05, 01:23 PM
Really?

As I got it, anything that goes beyond D&D's alignment system is a question of morals and as such forbidden. Therefore, discussing if Belkar was evil is ok, discussing if that is ok in general is not as soon as you go beyond what the characters of the comic think.

Ask a mod for further clarification if you think you need it, I really do not want one jumping from the shadows calling this "Vigilante Moderating" or whatever.

Dr.Epic
2011-12-05, 01:39 PM
Since when can non-intelligent magic items have alignments? I don't think the creator's alignment makes any difference at all.

Don't understand why Elan is so opposed to free items.

Yeah, how dare Elan turn down magical items offered by someone who is evil and said magical items may or may not carry an alignment stigma. He should just totally be a munchkin and not have any principles or morals.

hamishspence
2011-12-05, 02:14 PM
Some items have an alignment despite not having sentience:


Nine Lives Stealer
This longsword always performs as a +2 longsword, but it also has the power to draw the life force from an opponent. It can do this nine times before the ability is lost. At that point, the sword becomes a simple +2 longsword (with a hint of evil about it). A critical hit must be dealt for the sword’s death-dealing ability to function, and this weapon has no effect on creatures not subject to critical hits. The victim is entitled to a DC 20 Fortitude save to avoid death. If the save is successful, the sword’s death-dealing ability does not function, no use of the ability is expended, and normal critical damage is determined. This sword is evil, and any good character attempting to wield it gains two negative levels. These negative levels remain as long as the sword is in hand and disappear when the sword is no longer wielded. These negative levels never result in actual level loss, but they cannot be overcome in any way (including restoration spells) while the sword is wielded.

Andorax
2011-12-06, 02:31 PM
You know, Elan would have made an excellent Paladin, if his Alignment restrictions and serial un-seriousness didnt allow it. His most evil act has been trying to smite Roy with the power of Banjo the Clown. :smallsmile:

Chaotic acts are against the Paladin code too...in some interpretations, they're equally reprehensible.

rbetieh
2011-12-06, 02:58 PM
Chaotic acts are against the Paladin code too...in some interpretations, they're equally reprehensible.

I agree, thats the "serial unseriousness" part.

hamishspence
2011-12-06, 03:01 PM
in 2nd ed, both Chaotic acts, and Evil acts, made you fall.

But, only Evil acts made you fall permanently- it was possible to atone for Chaotic ones.

So- they were not quite equal.

In 3.0-3.5 ed, Chaotic acts aren't specified as causing a Fall- though "gross violations of the paladin's code" as well as Evil acts, are- as is changing alignment.

Kish
2011-12-06, 04:01 PM
And, in 2ed, a paladin could associate freely with Chaotic characters, but not with Evil ones--just like in 3.xed.

Good takes precedence over Law for paladins. Has since 2ed at the latest.

Bulldog Psion
2011-12-06, 04:21 PM
The item itself doesn't need to have an alignment if it was acquired or created under horrifying circumstances.

Consider, if someone was willing to give you a free car -- but they revealed, at the same time, that they had gained it by torturing the previous owner grotesquely over the course of three days and finally running them over with the vehicle. You probably wouldn't be quite as willing to accept it as you would, say, a car that you won in a raffle. :smalleek: The car itself isn't evil, but it sure comes with a monolithic weight of guilt attached to it.

Occasional Sage
2011-12-06, 04:50 PM
The best model for an intrinsically-aligned item that I can think of is the cursed item (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/cursedItems.htm#drawback) rules, and specifically the minor drawbacks that don't impede the item functioning, just... flavor it.

Lynn
2011-12-06, 05:49 PM
I don't remember anybody asking why he didn't eat the evil supper. Food can't have an alignment (as far as I know) yet they all were disgust at the idea of eating sapient critters.
Now, this is a bit different because he would have used the ring of regeneration and whatever else T was willing to give him for a greater good, and the harm was already done anyway. Maybe that would have been good enough for Haley or even Roy provided that the evil way the items were crafted did not have any effect at all.
But 1- Elan is the goodest goody of the entire comic, probably even more than Celia. If he had to use such an item he would be so conflicted about it that he would get a circumstantial penalty to about any check .

2-This is Tarquin. Almost anything he does is more evil than you could imagine. Better refuse now than realize later that an item contains trapped souls that suffer an agony every time you use it.

3-Elan is a main character and Tarquin is a villain he will have to take down someday. Any help he accepts from him may come bite him in the back.