Extra Attacks in Epic Levels (and other Epic Questions)

[Yorae]

I was reading through the ELH as our group is nearing epic levels and I was taken somewhat aback by how BAB progression works after 20. Namely, that every class / PrC has their attack bonus progression changed to +0.5/lvl, and that the extra points of bonus do not give you additional attacks.

The situation I'm in is this:

At level 20 I have a BAB of 18. I also have not finished one of my PrCs (namely, Abjurant Champion, of which I only have 4 levels). If I take Abjurant Champion 5 at level 21, is my base attack bonus +18 or +19, since Abjurant Champion 5 is a level in a non-epic PrC that is taken at level 21?

Does this mean that if I have not achieved my fifth attack by level 20, then I can never get that attack? I understand not letting it progress beyond five attacks, but getting cut off like that sounds counterintuitive. I would have expected that the progression would stop at BAB +20, at which point your additional epic attack bonus would accumulate (which does not grant additional attacks).

What if I start a new non-epic PrC after I'm into epic levels (like, say, I wanted to start taking levels in Spellsword or Knight Phantom)? I'd be taking Spellsword 1, not Spellsword 11. What happens then?

[Kantolin]

Nobody can get a fifth attack. If you haven't recieved your fourth attack by level 20, you will never get it.

This hurts some classes like psychic warriors, but meh - it gives an advantage to having at least 16BAB by level 20.

....by 'nobody can get a fifth attack', I of course mean purely due to BAB, as you can obviously use feats or spells or sommat to get extra attacks. :P

Edit: Also, whatever class you take after level 20 accrues in epic attack bonus. So if you went spellsword, you'd gain .5 per level just like anything else.

[Hirax]

Divine power (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/divinePower.htm) can get you additional iteratives. You don't lose out on additional iteratives because it's forbidden to have more than 4, you lose out on them because your BAB stops increasing. Increase your BAB with divine power, get more iteratives.

[Yorae]

Nobody can get a fifth attack. If you haven't recieved your fourth attack by level 20, you will never get it.

This hurts some classes like psychic warriors, but meh - it gives an advantage to having at least 16BAB by level 20.

....by 'nobody can get a fifth attack', I of course mean purely due to BAB, as you can obviously use feats or spells or sommat to get extra attacks. :P

Edit: Also, whatever class you take after level 20 accrues in epic attack bonus. So if you went spellsword, you'd gain .5 per level just like anything else.

Wow.. that's really lame. And breaks Martial Arcanist to uselessness.
And in what way do you not get a 5th attack?

You have 1. You get another at +6. You get another at +11. You get another at +16, and you get another at... ....

*rereads attack chart*

... oh.
So you get your last iterative at +16. Why did I have it in my head that fighters got another attack at 20? Sorry, I must be losing my mind.

How about spell progressions?

Say you have the casting potential of a level 16 wizard at level 20.
If you take a PrC that increases wizard casting at level 21, do you get 9ths as per usual, or do epic progression rules make you lose out?


Divine power can get you additional iteratives. You don't lose out on additional iteratives because it's forbidden to have more than 4, you lose out on them because your BAB stops increasing. Increase your BAB with divine power, get more iteratives.

Haha, wow... One more reason fighters are giving clerics dirty looks.

[Hirax]

Spell progressions do increase, so if you're a wizard19/fighter1, and take mindbender1, wizard20, etc, you'd finish off your wizard casting progression

[Rubik]

There are only two ways of which I'm aware to get to epic levels and continue accruing regular attack bonuses (as well as regular saving throw progressions).

The first is through magical effects such as Divine Power.

The second is through racial hit dice.

That is all.

[Yorae]

Awesome, that clears things up quite a lot.

I am a little confused about the "Any class features that increase or accumulate as part of a repeated pattern" clause of extending 10-level prestige classes.

If one were to apply this to Jade Phoenix Mage, what would happen?

For instance, its spellcasting entry says " At each level except 1st and 6th, you gain new spells per day and an increase in caster level...."

Does this mean you advance your casting at every level, since those levels are not 1st or 6th? Or does it mean that you lose a caster level every 5th level, since that is the 'pattern'?

Likewise, it says "At 3rd level, 6th level, and 9th level, you gain an additional maneuver readied per day." Would you never again gain an additional readied maneuver, or would you gain them at 12th, 15th, 18th, and so on?

[Hirax]

There is no text of any sort on epic maneuver progressions, but spells increase at the same pattern. So for a terrible example, a wizard10/JPM20 would have a CL of 26, and hit 20th level spells per day at level 23.

[Yorae]

There is no text of any sort on epic maneuver progressions, but spells increase at the same pattern. So for a terrible example, a wizard10/JPM20 would have a CL of 26, and hit 20th level spells per day at level 23.

So the correct reading is to look at the class/table and check to see if there is a consistent pattern, rather than using the literal text of the abilities?

Abilities that say "increases by X every Y levels" or "at every even/odd level..." are easy, but ones that say "increases on every level except X, Y, and Z" are more confusing.

Edit: This seems to be correct, based on examinations from other classes - e.g., the Dwarven Defender's DR reads:


Damage Reduction (Ex): At 6th level, a dwarven defender gains damage reduction. Subtract 3 points from the damage the dwarven defender takes each time he is dealt damage. At 10th level, this damage reduction rises to 6/–. Damage reduction can reduce damage to 0 but not below 0.

And the Epic progression for Dwarven Defender explicitly gets additional DR every 4 levels (likewise with the trap sense ability).

[Douglas]

Yeah, the literal text of each class is generally written with only the pre-epic levels in mind, so it requires interpretation and extrapolation when going into epic. If you look at the text and it calls out a set of specific levels that have an obvious pattern, especially "once every X levels", then that pattern is what you should base an epic progression on.

[Hirax]

Actually, in looking for something else, I spotted something else in the ELH on page 7. Relevant snippet: "A high base attack bonus never grants a creature more than four attacks with any given weapon using the full attack action." Divine power still puts your BAB at 30, but it seems that you only get 4 attacks. And if it matters at all, racial hit dice can also get you above 20 BAB, it's specifically pointed out on the same page.

[KillianHawkeye]

Actually, in looking for something else, I spotted something else in the ELH on page 7. Relevant snippet: "A high base attack bonus never grants a creature more than four attacks with any given weapon using the full attack action." Divine power still puts your BAB at 30, but it seems that you only get 4 attacks. And if it matters at all, racial hit dice can also get you above 20 BAB, it's specifically pointed out on the same page.

That's correct. For example, the Elder Titan (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/titanElder.htm) has a BAB of +70 and he still only gets 4 attacks with his warhammer or javelins.

[Viktyr Gehrig]

For instance, its spellcasting entry says " At each level except 1st and 6th, you gain new spells per day and an increase in caster level...."

Does this mean you advance your casting at every level, since those levels are not 1st or 6th? Or does it mean that you lose a caster level every 5th level, since that is the 'pattern'?

I'd say you keep losing them.

The one that breaks my teeth is Wyrm Wizard. It loses a caster level at 2nd, 4th, and 6th.

[Jarveiyan]

Actually Divine Power caps at +20(it was errata'd in the PHB special edition - $80). And as stated there is BAB and Epic BAB(both of which are seperate). Creatures like outsiders, dragons, giants, etc. have a set progression for racial hit die that doesn't conform to epic rules.

[Rubik]

Actually Divine Power caps at +20(it was errata'd in the PHB special edition - $80). And as stated there is BAB and Epic BAB(both of which are seperate). Creatures like outsiders, dragons, giants, etc. have a set progression for racial hit die that doesn't conform to epic rules.I'm not about to pay $80 for errata that isn't available anywhere else.

[Hirax]

Actually Divine Power caps at +20(it was errata'd in the PHB special edition - $80). And as stated there is BAB and Epic BAB(both of which are seperate). Creatures like outsiders, dragons, giants, etc. have a set progression for racial hit die that doesn't conform to epic rules.

I don't believe that. The special edition PHB came out in 2004, and the PHB errata on WotC's website is dated in 2006 and contains no divine power errata. If it had been changed at all, it would be very strange for it to not be there. Though I'll keep an eye out and hope a special edition pops up in Powell's, and check for that change if one ever pops in.

[Geigan]

I don't believe that. The special edition PHB came out in 2004, and the PHB errata on WotC's website is dated in 2006 and contains no divine power errata. If it had been changed at all, it would be very strange for it to not be there. Though I'll keep an eye out and hope a special edition pops up in Powell's, and check for that change if one ever pops in.

I actually asked this in the RAW thread, and looked for this argument in other threads where that very thing came up. And then I facepalmed for forgetting to look at my own PHB instead of the SRD, which happens to have been printed in 2004 although it wasn't special edition. I can confirm after looking at it that it is indeed capped at +20. They didn't include it in the official errata though for some reason.

[Hirax]

Huh. Still not as strange as the ToB errata. :smallbiggrin:

[Geigan]

Huh. Still not as strange as the ToB errata. :smallbiggrin:

Indeed:smallsigh::smallwink:

[Runestar]

Greater manyshot (the epic feat) can be used to grant you more than 4 attacks if your bab is 21+. :smallsmile:

[Feralventas]

Greater manyshot (the epic feat) can be used to grant you more than 4 attacks if your bab is 21+. :smallsmile:

As do the two-weapon and multi-weapon fighting iterations.

[Rubik]

And Haste, and dancing weapons, etc etc etc.