D&D 3.5: "Simple" Tank build?

[ShadowAegis]

Hey everyone! My group and I are starting a new, relatively short, campaign in which I'm looking to do what I love: combat control/tank. To put it simply, I'm looking on how to make an optimized Crusader/Knight build (with an emphasis on combat control as my group isn't very fond of the idea, or even the term, 'tank') under a decent amount of restrictions, which are as follows:

*Sorry if my format/post is difficult to deal with.

Restrictions:

Race: Elf (Note: +2 DEX, -2 CON)
Play Levels: 3-8 (START-END)
Starting Class: Crusader or Knight (with a desire to have a combination of both in later levels)
Alignment: Lawful Good
Multi-class Options: Crusader or Knight (so, more of a question of what level to multi-class)
Ability Scores (before adjustments): 15, 14, 12, 11, 8, 8 (I think I rolled the worst in the group; don't forget about Elf adjustments orz)
Weapons: sword and shield, great sword, ranseur/halberd, composite longbow
Sources Available: Complete series, Tome of Battle. Exceptions may be made by a case-to-case examination (ex: Stand Still has been allowed).
Objective: Tanky, pseudo-lockdown build incorporating Stand Still (as opposed to Improved Trip) and Thicket of Blades
Things to Avoid: flaws, dips, multi-classing aside from Crusader/Knight, some other things that I fail to remember

Current Build
* Reminder: Beginning campaign at level 3

Lv. 1) Crusader 1: Feat: Combat Reflexes
Lv. 2) Knight 1:
Lv. 3) Knight 2: Feat: Stand Still
Lv. 4) Knight 3: +1 ability point into either Charisma or Constitution
Lv. 5) Knight 4:
Lv. 6) Knight 5: Feat: Extra Granted Maneuver or Power Attack
Lv. 7) Knight 6:
Lv. 8) Crusader 2: +1 ability point into whichever ability score I did not apply the increase to at Lv. 4

Ability scores:
Strength: 12
Dexterity: 16 (14; +2 elf bonus)
Constitution: 13 (15; -2 elf penalty)
Wisdom: 8
Intelligence: 8
Charisma: 11

Sorry if this post is too long or offensive/incorrect in some way, I am grossly inexperienced with making forum posts in general, haha. If I'm missing some essential bit of information I'll be sure to edit it in. Thanks in advance!

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Needs more Improved Trip/Spiked Chain for battlefield control.

[Little Brother]

Needs less Knight. Knight is horrible. Only anything resembling decent as a 3 level dip.

[ShadowAegis]

Shmucks, all right. I'm kinda stuck with this as my DM is uh, a bit on the poor side and doesn't like us to really... think, as bad as that sounds (i.e. planning feats is frowned upon). He's also had a bad experience with someone power-gaming an earlier campaign of his; I believe they decimated enemies by using a whip and tripping.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Um, why do you have a weapon restriction? Glaive and Guisarme are your best options. Also, does it have to be straight core Elf, and not one of the numerous subspecies?

Honestly I'd just go straight Crusader for better maneuver progression, keeping the same feats. I would also rearrange your stats to give yourself better strength. Tanking with Stand Still/Thicket is ultimately based on (1) actually hitting your enemy and (2) doing enough damage to stop them.

[Gavinfoxx]

Right, you want to go 100% Crusader, no Knight, and use a Guisarme / Spiked Armor / Gauntlet / Spiked Gauntlet. Get Improved Trip, Stand Still, and Thicket of Blades.

[ShadowAegis]

The weapon restriction is a sort of pseudo counter to tripping; and when I said ranseur, I meant guisarme, haha, sorry. For races, yeah, stuck with uh the default elf - normally non-human races wouldn't even be allowed.

Its sounding like Stand Still isn't gonna be able to cut it and I should at least cut down my Knight levels - so I won't be able to get Thicket of Blades until level 8 barring a different feat selection. If I do manage to convince the DM to allow a more natural lockdown build (i.e. Improved Tripping) what should my ability scores look like (assuming a single-classed Crusader)? Strength versus constitution/dexterity, and the worry of meeting Expertise's intelligence requirement***.

[Fax Celestis]

Needs less Knight. Knight is horrible. Only anything resembling decent as a 3 level dip.

4-level dip, actually. And the rest of it isn't "atrocious", it's just "not a wizard".

I would say, personally, something like Knight 4/Crusader 6/Eternal Blade 10 is straightforward and can do what it needs to do. Just use a reach trip weapon (spiked chain, or a guisarme with spiked gauntlets), use your knight abilities to pull aggro, trip people who try to escape, and then crush them with your crusader maneuvers. Stand Still (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#standStill) and Hold the Line (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#holdTheLine) are also nice, particularly in conjunction with Thicket of Blades. Eternal Blade is interesting without being broken. Too bad you're an elf, otherwise I would've said you could go dwarf and go into Deepstone Sentinel, which makes for a good second half of a knight/crusader build.

Other things to consider: Deflect Arrows can be semi-useful against a certain kind of DM, but you probably have better things to spend feats on. Evasive Reflexes (ToB), however, is probably worth the feat slot: being able to 5' step out of turn can be very helpful. And Stone Power might be a better investment than Power Attack, if you have other damage-dealers in your party: your role is to make your opponents hold still for your other party members to make mincemeat of them, and Stone Power gives you a stack of temporary HP to soak incoming hits. I recommend grabbing counterstrike bracers from MIC as well.

[Little Brother]

4-level dip, actually. And the rest of it isn't "atrocious", it's just "not a wizard".No, it's not "Not wizard," it's more "Why didn't I take levels of Fighter, or even Monk?"

By the way, he said the game is going 3-8. Personally, I'd just go Warblade, with Armor Spikes and a reach trip weapon. Or not at all. The "no planning" thing sounds like really bad news.

[Gavinfoxx]

Why are you locked into elf? What about the variant elves? Can you at least get Lesser Celadrin?

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19546874/Master_Player_Race_List_Version_2.0
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=6992.0

And you want Thicket of Blades ASAP...

Have you read this?

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4227

Do you have access to flaws?

[ShadowAegis]

I'll look into Warblade. Yeah, the no planning thing is a bit awkward. We're to "adapt" to the campaign.

We're stuck with core races/whatever is in PHB, so I'm guessing no Lesser Celadrin - Warforged wasn't allowed. Hmmm, wondering how I'm gonna pull this off, haha. No access to flaws or things similar to it.

And thank you very much for that link to the Ultimate Tank guide.

[Flickerdart]

For 8 levels, going Knight 4/Crusader 4 instead of Crusader 8 loses all two levels of maneuvers, while granting four levels of another class's features. Not that bad of a deal, especially considering that the DC of the Knight abilities won't fall too far behind.

[mint]

I'd go knight 6 or not at all.
You get the taunt at 4,, but why not use Goad instead if that's all you want? Sure its a move action but you can use it an unlimited amount of times and the save isn't based on your levels in Knight.
At level 6 you'll at least get shield ally as well and a fair number of uses of your challenge.

Or skip Knight entirely and use some variation of the Crusader5/Incarnate1/Hellreaver5/X
Like Crusader 5 and your choice of way to gain K: the planes as a class skill for those 4 entry ranks. Follow with at least 2 levels of HR.
The main draw is being able to heal 10 hp as a swift action to yourself or an ally in range every round. It's called divine succour.
Hellreaver does give you a whole bunch of other pretty good stuff as well though.
The healing suite on the crusader along with divine succour means killing you becomes a bit of a priority.
And that's before whatever you do with your other feats and stuff.

Hellreaver is from fiendish codex II, pg92

[Gwendol]

Goad (the feat) isn't even close to Test of Mettle (the Knight 4 ability). It's a Move action, and it affects one (1) opponent compared with ToM which affects all intelligent opponents with a language that can see or hear you (within 100 feet).

Knight 4 grants you ToM, knight's challenge +1, medium armor mastery (move full speed in medium armor, great for jump, tumble, etc), Bulwark of Defence (poor man's Thicket of Blades), Mounted Combat, Shield Block +1 (useful with or without an actual shield).

Knight 6 grants you +1 to your Test of Mettle save DC, a bonus feat, Vigilant defender (Tumblers get an additional +6 DC to get past/over), and shield ally.

Not sure that is worthwhile, compared with Crusader 4.

Little brother: are you saying the Knight is worse off than the monk? In what way?

[marcielle]

Look, you have access to Crusader, Improved Trip, and a Guisarme. You don't really need much more. You could go human and get Jotunbrud. Another +4 to your trip but I think that the idea would set off bells in your DMs head. Drop the Knight. The class itself notwithstanding, you really need a big payoff to delay getting higher level maneuvers, since you have access to the 2 best schools. Look into Ruby Knight Vindicator and adaption. You can have a RKV for other gods since the only real mechanical limitation is Know:Religion and stealth.
If your DM doesn't like the idea of a Tier 1, Dread Necros get you the turning and Knowledge and probably set off less alarms than a Cleric dip. Worse casting but still better than Knight or Paladin.

[Gwendol]

Marcielle, please look at the restrictions of the build. It somewhat limits the scope.

[marcielle]

Nothing besides Knight or Crusader? That is pretty darn specific. In that case, all I can say is drop all Knight levels. Realy, as far as meelee goes, it's hard to do better than 20 levels of initiator( without PRCs and such).
Surprised noone has linked a handbook yet.
:smallbiggrin: (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4227.0)
p.s. Did you know you can put links into smilies? I just found this out lol.

[Gavinfoxx]

all I can say is drop all Knight levels.

AGREE WITH THIS!!! Significantly, agree with this... all these people thinking Knight doesn't suck confuses me greatly...

[Lateral]

AGREE WITH THIS!!! Significantly, agree with this... all these people thinking Knight doesn't suck confuses me greatly...

As a four-level dip for a Crusader? It doesn't. Bulwark of Defense is an incredible ability, and so is Test of Mettle. (Personally, I prefer just straight Crusader with Martial Stance at 6th level for timely getting of Thicket of Blades, as Thicket of Blades is harder to bypass and applies to more methods of movement, but Knight dips are certainly viable options, especially on a Crusader where you lose only 2 IL.

[Fax Celestis]

AGREE WITH THIS!!! Significantly, agree with this... all these people thinking Knight doesn't suck confuses me greatly...

The first four levels pretty much don't suck, considering they're one of the few ways to decently pull aggro and remain sticky--even ToB doesn't have an aggro-pull, and Goad is not spectacular in the slightest. As a defender, pulling aggro and being sticky is what you're supposed to do. "Killan doodz" is for the people you're protecting.


As a four-level dip for a Crusader? It doesn't. Bulwark of Defense is an incredible ability, and so is Test of Mettle. (Personally, I prefer just straight Crusader with Martial Stance at 6th level for timely getting of Thicket of Blades, as Thicket of Blades is harder to bypass and applies to more methods of movement, but Knight dips are certainly viable options, especially on a Crusader where you lose only 2 IL.

More than that, Bulwark of Defense and Thicket of Blades work together amazingly.


When you reach 3rd level, an opponent that begins its turn in your threatened area treats all the squares that you threaten as difficult terrain. Your strict vigilance and active defensive maneuvers force your opponents to move with care.


While you are in this stance, any opponent you threaten that takes any son of movement, including a 5-foot step, provokes an attack of opportunity from you. Your foes provoke this attack before leaving the area you threaten. Your opponents also cannot use the withdraw action (PH 143) to treat the square they start in as no longer threatened by you.


Difficult terrain, obstacles, or poor visibility can hamper movement. When movement is hampered, each square moved into usually counts as two squares, effectively reducing the distance that a character can cover in a move.

If more than one condition applies, multiply together all additional costs that apply. (This is a specific exception to the normal rule for doubling)

In some situations, your movement may be so hampered that you don’t have sufficient speed even to move 5 feet (1 square). In such a case, you may use a full-round action to move 5 feet (1 square) in any direction, even diagonally. Even though this looks like a 5-foot step, it’s not, and thus it provokes attacks of opportunity normally. (You can’t take advantage of this rule to move through impassable terrain or to move when all movement is prohibited to you.)

You can't run or charge through any square that would hamper your movement.

{table=head]Condition | Additional Movement Cost
Difficult terrain | ×2
Obstacle | ×2
Poor visibility | ×2[/table]


You can move 5 feet in any round when you don’t perform any other kind of movement. Taking this 5-foot step never provokes an attack of opportunity. You can’t take more than one 5-foot step in a round, and you can’t take a 5-foot step in the same round when you move any distance.

You can take a 5-foot step before, during, or after your other actions in the round.

You can only take a 5-foot step if your movement isn’t hampered by difficult terrain or darkness. Any creature with a speed of 5 feet or less can’t take a 5-foot step, since moving even 5 feet requires a move action for such a slow creature.

You may not take a 5-foot step using a form of movement for which you do not have a listed speed.

If someone is threatened by you, their movement speeds are effectively halved, they can't five-foot step (which means AoOs from anyone who threatens them, effectively giving Thicket of Blades to your entire party), and if they want to get free they can't charge, withdraw, or run out of it. Further, since it's not actual difficult terrain but the result of a class feature, abilities like the Elocater's Scorn Earth, fly, and levitate don't negate the difficult terrain.

[Gavinfoxx]

But an Enlarged Person Crusader in Thicket of Blades with a Guisarme and Improved Trip and Combat Expertise and Stand Still is quite good at 'pulling aggro' by hitting people and tripping them or making them not move, right??

[Fax Celestis]

But an Enlarged Person Crusader in Thicket of Blades with a Guisarme and Improved Trip and Combat Expertise and Stand Still is quite good at 'pulling aggro' by hitting people and tripping them or making them not move, right??

No, he's not. I can go around. He's sticky, but there's nothing to force me to him in the first place other than his own movement. Knight 4 solves that by forcing them to save or attack you. Also, like I said above, Bulwark of Defense basically gives Thicket of Blades to your entire party, since any movement by someone you threaten provokes (as you can't 5' in difficult terrain and they can't withdraw). Plus, their speeds are effectively halved.

[Person_Man]

Knight Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=109429)

I would avoid Power Attack, because it doesn't really kick in until ECL 6ish and requires the addition of Shock Trooper and/or Leap Attack and other multipliers to be useful. Stone Power is a superior alternative at this ECL, especially when combined with the Crusader abilities.

Don't underestimate the value of mundane nets (www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Net). With a trailing rope, enemies must beat you on an opposed Str check in order to move away from you, and escaping from a new provokes an AoO.

Finally, I would say that a key tactic for any Knight is the ability to pull off "hit and run" tactics" via Ride-By-Attack and/or things that grant free movement (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103358). While Combat Reflexes + Stand Still + reach weapon + Thicket of Blades will prevent some enemies from attacking you, it won't stop all of them. Some enemies don't rely on melee attacks, some enemies can overwhealm you with a mook rush, and some enemies can just avoid AoO all together with various special abilities. You won't use this tactic all of the time, but having it as an option can be hugely important.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Tack on Dragonborn of Bahamut (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20060105b) (which can be added to an Elf), get the Heart aspect, and take the feat Entangling Exhalation in Races of the Dragon. Preferably switch to Snow Elf from Frostburn, which gets Cha -2 instead of Con -2. You can also probably skip Knight with this, since Combat Reflexes and Entangling breaths as often as possible should be sufficient to hold opponents' attention. Just a single-class Crusader with Entangling Exhalation is more than sufficient for tanking in this game. I'm-ruining-your-day-attack-me makes a lot more sense than trying to integrate MMO tanking mechanics into a tabletop RPG anyway.

[marcielle]

Wait, didn't the OP say he was stuck with default elf?

[Little Brother]

Why not go Crusader 4/Cloistered Cleric 1/RKV X, or CC 4/Crusader 1/RKV X, depending? Take the Planar Banishment ACF thingy from UA, and the Sun Domain from DLCS, I believe, that gives you TU, so you effectively have two pools. For the other one, why not take the Spell Domain for Anyspell? In fact, if you want, you might want to drop the Knowledge Domain for Divine Magician. I see no RAW reason why you couldn't.

For a 20 level build, you might want to go CC 4/Crusader 1/RKV 10/Contemplative or Sovereign Speaker 1(Magic Domain)/Dweomerkeeper 4? A free SU Limited Wish 1/day, or a full on wish if you take the Envy Domain instead.

[JadePhoenix]

I think our friend has been quite clear in that he doesn't want to use any class other than Knight or Crusader.

[Slipperychicken]

Yeah, the no planning thing is a bit awkward. We're to "adapt" to the campaign.


Write down your build of choice, and keep it where no one can see. If you level up outside of sessions, you're golden. If you level up mid-session, glance at the next level of your build beforehand, so you take the classes/feats you need to. If they're the type to bother you to justify things, contrive some RP-reason to be good at tanking (army service, guard duty, really devoted to ideal, masochism, death-wish, etc).

[marcielle]

You said no multiclassing but what about Prestige classes? That opens up a ton of options.

[Endarire]

I prefer Crusader all the way. (More healing, yo!) Crusaders are typically Human due to the extra feat.

And if your GM is asking you to play dumb, that feels very awkward. And controlling. And newbish. But it's your game.