[PF] Qinggong Monk as a Blaster?

[Doorhandle]

Yeah, I know. You're all going WHAT, HE'S A MONK. HE PUNCHES THINGS. HOW THIS WORK, but bear with me.

If you look at the Qinggong monk herein, (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateMagic/spellcastingClassOptions/monk.html)you will notice that along with the redundant feats and the former class features, this flavor of monk also gets quite a few Spell-like abilities, which include the likes of Scorching ray, Dragon's breath, discordant blast, and Ki shout. Now, this got me thinking: Would is be possible to used these abilities to make the monk into an archetypal blaster? Certainly, the monk's mobility and move-speed would make him good at this, and those nice saves/ flurry-of-blows/unarmed strike don't hurt, especially as the latter-most has synergies with many of my S.L.A.

So, is it possible to do this in such a way as to be effective, if not competitive? What will I need? Obviously, a high wisdom score and lots of juicy vows for that much-needed Ki, but is there anything else I can do?

[Krazzman]

Afaik the most easiest thing would be:

+1 Guided Kurki
Hungry Ghost mixed with Qui-gon Monk.

Hungry Ghost gives +KI for every crit and for every kill.

I think Curious had a proper build for this one.

Hope this helps.

[Curious]

Needs moar hungry ghost and dimensional dervish.
I do actually have a build rather like this, but more focused on melee than blasting. I'll post that when I have the time, although searching for a pf monk thread will probably lead you too it.

[Frosty]

So...he can teleport behind you, and then blast you with a big beam of energy, and he revels int he killing of other strong opponents?

What is this, Akuma? :smallbiggrin:

[Novawurmson]

I think the list is a little lacking to make a full on kamehameha character :smallwink:

Edit: Could be an excellent bossfight though XD

[Krazzman]

I'm actually thinking about making a Hungry Ghost/Quingong Monk. (Fighting with Scimitar-Katara) but can't come up with good spells to emulate the special attacks I would like to have.

But if you take weaponlike spells (i.e. shocking grasp) you have at least a 5% chance to get ki back for that spell assuming Hungry Ghost/Quingong.

@Curious

The last times you posted your build I quite couldn't keep track when you changed what ability. Would you mind posting it a bit more detailed this time?

[ericgrau]

The spells function as spell like abilities so you could grab empower spell like ability and quicken spell like ability to let you keep up at higher levels. Medium BAB instead of poor BAB for your touch attack rolls is nice too. Otherwise the higher level abilities fall behind a bit. Those feats applied to the lower level abilities could fix that.



I think the list is a little lacking to make a full on kamehameha character :smallwink:
Edit: Could be an excellent bossfight though XD
Abundant flash step behind foe, quickened triple scorching ray empowered triple scorching ray kamehameha? About 105 fire damage on average, available at level 12.

Using an SLA ki power every time you're forced to move could be an efficient use of your time, then you full attack the next round. I mean your standard action attack probably does much less than that and depending on your foe's AC your full attack might do a little more.

[Curious]

@Curious

The last times you posted your build I quite couldn't keep track when you changed what ability. Would you mind posting it a bit more detailed this time?

Yeah, give me a few more hours, I still don't have much free time for searching it up and clarifying.

EDIT: Original list, gonna update in a little while.

Hungry Ghost (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo---monk-archetypes/hungry-ghost-monk), Qinggong (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo---monk-archetypes/qinggong-monk) monk. Trade Tongue of the Sun and Moon (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk#TOC-Tongue-of-the-Sun-and-Moon-Ex-) for Cold Ice Strike (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/c/cold-ice-strike), trade High Jump (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk#TOC-High-Jump-Ex-) for Gaseous Form (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/g/gaseous-form), take the Dimensional feats on the PFSRD up to Dimensional Dervish (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/dimensional-dervish), grab the Spider Step (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/spider-step) and Cloud Step (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/cloud-step) feats, get a keen guided (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/magic-weapons-non-core/weapon-property---guided) weapon. Pick up a few style feats, such as Dragon (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/dragon-style-combat) or Crane (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/crane-wing-combat) style.

Guided adds Wis to damage and to hit in place of Str, Dimensional Dervish allows you to move + full attack, Spider Step allows you to run across water or up walls, cloud Step allows you to run across the air, Gaseous Form lets you go through walls, Restoration is always useful, Cold Ice Strike is a swift action 15d6 attack, Hungry Ghost allows you to regain ki on a crit or kill. Be human.

[Doorhandle]

Yeah, the dragon Style chain is a given because it gives me a (weak) blast that doesn't eat precious ki, and dosn't allow a save for half damage. Also, I could just use ki leech, but I have to remember it pre-battle.

Edit: In before FUS-ROH-DAH!

Also, ki shout looks good. Sonic damage dice equal to my caster/monk level.
Seeing as blast'n usually only requires a standard a round, could I do this and still abuse m.o.m.s cheese?

Also, assuming 2 ki per s.l.a, how many could I get off in a day, compared to another blaster?

[Khantin]

If you take all the monk vows that wont cripple you (ie everything but peace and poverty) and use fractional ki they will add ~1.25 ki points per level. So at level 20 you'd be looking at a ki pool of about 25 (vows) +10 (for levels) +13 (13 at 36 wisdom) = 48 ki points as a maximum.

I included vow of silence in this, as it doesnt explicitly call out casting spells or using SLAs, just talking. Non-fractional ki would get you 24 extra ki at level 20.

[Doorhandle]

If you take all the monk vows that wont cripple you (ie everything but peace and poverty) and use fractional ki they will add ~1.25 ki points per level. So at level 20 you'd be looking at a ki pool of about 25 (vows) +10 (for levels) +13 (13 at 36 wisdom) = 48 ki points as a maximum.

I included vow of silence in this, as it doesnt explicitly call out casting spells or using SLAs, just talking. Non-fractional ki would get you 24 extra ki at level 20.

Hand seals, and Kiai.:smallwink:

Also, I could add that he took up the Qinggong in order to attack things without being within reach of their dirty, dirty hands. :smallbiggrin:

Also, might not take vow of silence: Think I would be lawful evil but cooperative with this build, and it's fun to be blunt and insulting.:smallamused:

[Golkiwu]

I am pretty sure that Archtypes cannot be mixed in levels taken. You are a monk of one type or another, but cannot be both.

I may be mistaken, but I do not believe that to be the case.

A DM may house rule this regardless.

[Doorhandle]

You can mix archetypes, but only if the Class features that each archetypes replaces don't cross.

For instance, you can almost any kind of monk and take Master Of Many Styles, but you can't do it as a Flowing, Sohei, or Tetori monk because they replace their monk bonus feats , and that is one of the things Master of Many styles replaces. You can't do it with any monk variant that changes flurry of blows either, as it removes that ability, or with the martial artist: because he lacks a Ki pool.

In theory, you can replace almost any class feature with a Qinggong monk, because they pick and choose what Class Features they replace.

Relevant quote:


Alternate Class Features
The primary way in which archetypes modify their corresponding base classes is via the use of alternate class features. When a character selects a class, he must normally choose to use the standard class features found in the class's original source—the exception is if he chooses to adopt an archetype. Each alternate class feature presented in an archetype replaces a specific class feature from its parent class. For example, the flowing monk archetype's redirection class feature replaces the Stunning Fist feature of the standard monk class.

When an archetype includes multiple alternate class features, a character must take them all—often blocking the character from ever gaining certain standard class features, but replacing them with other options. All other class features of the base class that aren't mentioned among the alternate class features remain unchanged and are acquired normally when the character reaches the appropriate level, unless noted otherwise. A character who takes an alternate class feature does not count as having the class feature that was replaced for the purposes of meeting any requirements or prerequisites.

A character can take more than one archetype and garner additional alternate class features, but none of the alternate class features can replace or alter the same class feature from the base class as another alternate class feature. For example, a fighter could not be both an armor master and a brawler, since both archetypes replace the weapon training 1 class feature with something different.

If an archetype replaces a class feature that is part of a series of improvements or additions to a base ability (such as a fighter's weapon training or a ranger's favored enemy), the next time the character would gain that ability, it counts as the lower-level ability that was replaced by the archetype. In effect, all abilities in that series are delayed until the next time the class improves that ability. For example, if an archetype replaces a rogue's +2d6 sneak attack bonus at 3rd level, when she reaches 5th level and gains a sneak attack bonus, her sneak attack doesn't jump from +1d6 to +3d6—it improves to +2d6, just as if she had finally gained the increase at 3rd level. This adjustment continues for every level at which her sneak attack would improve, until at 19th level she has +9d6 instead of the +10d6 of a standard rogue


On a different topic, is there any way I can increase my Ki without Vows, wisdom bonus, or Extra Ki?

[Krazzman]

Can't check the srd right now, but I think there are some magic items, like pearl of power (KI-Beads or something like that). And of course things that would increase your monk level.

[Khantin]

The only thing I can think of is this necklace (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/m-p/necklace-of-ki-serenity), but in all honesty you would probably be better off with the amulet of mighty fists (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/a-b/amulet-of-mighty-fists) with a guided (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/magic-weapons-non-core/weapon-property---guided)enhancement...

[ericgrau]

Would that necklace also give him a +4 caster level to his qinggong SLA ki powers? That could be handy.

I did a search and the only other item I found was the 10,000 gp ki mat which lets you restore up to 1 ki per hour of meditation. I also noticed that humans can use their favored class bonus to get 1/4 ki per level.

And am I the only one tired of an item from adventure path 10 being taken seriously as a major common build option? In this particular case your attack bonus is often based off your dex so it's less useful anyway.

[CTrees]

And am I the only one tired of an item from adventure path 10 being taken seriously as a major common build option?

It's first party and on the SRD, making it both easy to find and common to have allowed. Given the nature of the SRD, very little put out by Paizo is going to be obscure. In 3.5, I could see getting annoyed by an option from Dragon Magazine being brought up repeatedly as a common build option, but the equivalent in PF (which Guided is)... not so much, as it's really not obscure.

Just my thought on it, anyway.

[Khantin]

Would that necklace also give him a +4 caster level to his qinggong SLA ki powers? That could be handy.

I think it does work that way, although the wording is a little dubious.



I did a search and the only other item I found was the 10,000 gp ki mat which lets you restore up to 1 ki per hour of meditation. I also noticed that humans can use their favored class bonus to get 1/4 ki per level.

I saw the mat and it strikes me as fairly useless, good catch on the favored class bonus though. Seems like humans always get the good favored class bonuses.



And am I the only one tired of an item from adventure path 10 being taken seriously as a major common build option? In this particular case your attack bonus is often based off your dex so it's less useful anyway.

I find it less ludicrous to use things from different adventure paths in PF, as they all presumably exist somewhere in golarion, than things from different settings in 3.5 (eberron or faerun or what have you)

[ericgrau]

I saw the mat and it strikes me as fairly useless, good catch on the favored class bonus though. Seems like humans always get the good favored class bonuses.
True, how often do you have a second encounter in the same day and yet also have an hour or more of peaceful rest available?

In 3.5, I could see getting annoyed by an option from Dragon Magazine being brought up repeatedly as a common build option, but the equivalent in PF (which Guided is)... not so much, as it's really not obscure.
Perhaps it's better than Dragon Magazine, but still not in a major book, less reviewed and more open to error. And it's rather powerful, as indicated by its popularity. Heck, even taking only a single obviously extra powerful item out of one of the more minor books and ditching the rest is a bit irksome.

[Doorhandle]

Would that necklace also give him a +4 caster level to his qinggong SLA ki powers? That could be handy.

I did a search and the only other item I found was the 10,000 gp ki mat which lets you restore up to 1 ki per hour of meditation. I also noticed that humans can use their favored class bonus to get 1/4 ki per level.

And am I the only one tired of an item from adventure path 10 being taken seriously as a major common build option? In this particular case your attack bonus is often based off your dex so it's less useful anyway.

And I would be happy to have the Ki mat anyway, because I'll be glad to have it for these rare opportunities when the barbarian grapples the abloeth, and we have to wait 3 hours for him sot be able to breath air again.


Probably not. the Qinggong monk uses his monk level as his caster level for his SLA. Which makes me wounder how it works with Monk's robes....

TO PAZIO!


And I would be happy to have the Ki mat anyway, for those rare opportunities when the barbarian grapples the abloeth, and we have to wait 3 hours for him to be able to breath air again.

[Khantin]

Perhaps it's better than Dragon Magazine, but still not in a major book, less reviewed and more open to error. And it's rather powerful, as indicated by its popularity. Heck, even taking only a single obviously extra powerful item out of one of the more minor books and ditching the rest is a bit irksome.

True, but monks are pretty UP compared to almost everyone else, I feel less bad about it :P now if I were a cleric or a sorcerer I wouldn't have to try these shenanigans now would I?

[Cieyrin]

As an alternative to Hungry Ghost, Drunken Master could be a hilarious way to get away with your supernatural powers in combination with Qinggong. Temp Ki lasts an hour after drinking up and there are feats that allow for drinking as a swift for 2 Temp Ki a tankard.

Not to mention that Drunken Master's Fire Breath is actually not bad at all.

[Blisstake]

Keep in mind, even though Guided is on the SRD, it was made in an adventure path that precedes the Pathfinder Core Rules, which basically means you're using a 3rd party 3.5 weapon property. That 3rd party just happens to be Paizo. I can imagine many DMs would be hesitant to add it to their games as a result.