optimization of a champion

[leegi0n]

Playgrounders,

In a homebrew world (all books allowed) I'm wanting to build a champion of a god who is essentially akin to nerull/vecna. The god's favored weapon is a scythe. I would like to create this champion to be a necromantic flavored warlord, I suppose with the following attributes:

1. Someone who can create/summon a legion of undead and command them, effectively.

2. Someone who can use nasty, crippling, spells including (but not limited to) death effect(s), etc.

3. Someone who can wade into the thick of a battle and wreck some serious shop.

I would like it if they could wear armor. Weapons would be a scythe with an improved crit range, and vorpal. I'm also thinking a dire flail.

Kind of like the Witch King, mixed with the Reaper.

This will be an NPC and I'm thinking level 25-27.


Thanks for your input, in advance.

[Darth_Versity]

I think cleric ticks all the boxes. Let me just check...

Yep, Cleric.

[Jheska]

Ruby Knight Vindicator, using dread necromancer as the Chasis?

So say, 4 levels of dread necromancer followed by one of crusader, from there we take 10 levels of RKV and end up at level 15 with 11 levels of crusader manuevers and 12 levels of necromancer casting.

We have 10 levels left to work with at that point, I would suggest working out an epic advancement for the RKV for levels 21-25 which continuing the casting progression would net us 4 more levels of casting and 5 of crusader.

This means in our remaining 5 levels before epic to get full dread necromancer casting we'll need 3 of them to be dread necromancer or another casting class. The remaining two may want to go to crusader for more melee umph, as then the character will have effective 18 levels of crusader, and likely several 9th level manuevers to pair with your 9th level spells.

Crusader provides melee killing power and some defences, dread necromancer casting gives you all kinds of horrible debuffing and even some battlfield control. Dread also is Cha focussed which gives your more turn attempts for your RKV abilities and it can provide your legion of the dead.

White Raven Manuevers and stances will allow him to make the undead he marches to war with even more powerful.

[leegi0n]

Ruby Knight Vindicator, using dread necromancer as the Chasis?

So say, 4 levels of dread necromancer followed by one of crusader, from there we take 10 levels of RKV and end up at level 15 with 11 levels of crusader manuevers and 12 levels of necromancer casting.

We have 10 levels left to work with at that point, I would suggest working out an epic advancement for the RKV for levels 21-25 which continuing the casting progression would net us 4 more levels of casting and 5 of crusader.

This means in our remaining 5 levels before epic to get full dread necromancer casting we'll need 3 of them to be dread necromancer or another casting class. The remaining two may want to go to crusader for more melee umph, as then the character will have effective 18 levels of crusader, and likely several 9th level manuevers to pair with your 9th level spells.

Crusader provides melee killing power and some defences, dread necromancer casting gives you all kinds of horrible debuffing and even some battlfield control. Dread also is Cha focussed which gives your more turn attempts for your RKV abilities and it can provide your legion of the dead.

White Raven Manuevers and stances will allow him to make the undead he marches to war with even more powerful.


What about putting a necropolitan template on him, or making him a monster of legend? Not necessary? I think it would be flavorful....

ooooo, a death knight!?

[Jheska]

Necropolitan aint such a great choice due to lack of con score. Perhaps if you let him spend an epic feat to get the unholy toughness ability to add Cha to hit points due to lack of con then that would actually become a decent option.

[leegi0n]

would it be better than a death knight template, you think?

[kardar233]

Doesn't Dread Necromancer cast arcane spells, and thus doesn't work for Ruby Knight Vindicator?

[Jheska]

Traditionally, level adjustment is a bad thing for you as they are rarely more powerful than class levels would have been and often much less powerful.

If you were to try building him like I suggested earlier the following would work alright.

Race: Human (Necropolitan)

Dread Necromancer 4/Crusader 1/Ruby Knight Vindicator 10/Dread Necromancer 4/Crusader 1/Epic Ruby Knight Vindicator 5

Getting to 8 in dread necromancer amongst other benefits will change your controlled undead pool from 4*caster level to (4+ cha mad)*caster level, letting your witch king lead a terrifyingly large horde of undead. With this set up you also get 21 levels of dread necromancer casting (practised spellcaster will take your caster level to the full 25). With a charisma focused caster you will have a bucketload of turn attempts to fuel Ruby Knight Vindicator's ability to gain swift actions or refresh manuevers, speaking of which you should be able to gain 9th level manuevers in all 3 available disciplines should you want to. Your saves should be excellent in fort and will, and you are immune to most fort effects by dint of being undead as well as getting to add your Cha mod to will saves. Your final BaB should be 18 so you are comfortably into your full itteratives and necropolitan ensures a d12 hit dice throughout (and with the right feat you can add Cha to Hit points)

Feats:
1: Southern Magician
H: Corpsecrafter
3: Nimble Bones
6: Mother Cyst
9: Destruction Retribution
12: Arcane Disciple (Spell)
15: Power Attack
18: [Open]
21: Unholy Toughness (to give the cha to hp ability of the same name)
24: [Open]

Southern Magician is used to cast arcane spells as divine, qualifying you for RKV.

From those feats we add yet more power to any and all undead they create, adding hitpoints, speed and a negative energy burst on destruction (see if you can orchestrate your own necropolitan ritual to gain corpsecrafter benefits). Arcane disciple will add that domain to your spells known if you have the wisdom score to cast them, the spell domain will get you added versatility through anyspell and greater anyspell (wraithstrike works amazingly with power attack). Mother cyst adds yet more spells and versatility to your character pulling off dominates and other useful abilities. Most of these feats can be swapped around but these are some flavourful suggestions.

[leegi0n]

Traditionally, level adjustment is a bad thing for you as they are rarely more powerful than class levels would have been and often much less powerful.

If you were to try building him like I suggested earlier the following would work alright.

Race: Human (Necropolitan)

Dread Necromancer 4/Crusader 1/Ruby Knight Vindicator 10/Dread Necromancer 4/Crusader 1/Epic Ruby Knight Vindicator 5

Getting to 8 in dread necromancer amongst other benefits will change your controlled undead pool from 4*caster level to (4+ cha mad)*caster level, letting your witch king lead a terrifyingly large horde of undead. With this set up you also get 21 levels of dread necromancer casting (practised spellcaster will take your caster level to the full 25). With a charisma focused caster you will have a bucketload of turn attempts to fuel Ruby Knight Vindicator's ability to gain swift actions or refresh manuevers, speaking of which you should be able to gain 9th level manuevers in all 3 available disciplines should you want to. Your saves should be excellent in fort and will, and you are immune to most fort effects by dint of being undead as well as getting to add your Cha mod to will saves. Your final BaB should be 18 so you are comfortably into your full itteratives and necropolitan ensures a d12 hit dice throughout (and with the right feat you can add Cha to Hit points)

Feats:
1: Southern Magician
H: Corpsecrafter
3: Nimble Bones
6: Mother Cyst
9: Destruction Retribution
12: Arcane Disciple (Spell)
15: Power Attack
18: [Open]
21: Unholy Toughness (to give the cha to hp ability of the same name)
24: [Open]

Southern Magician is used to cast arcane spells as divine, qualifying you for RKV.

From those feats we add yet more power to any and all undead they create, adding hitpoints, speed and a negative energy burst on destruction (see if you can orchestrate your own necropolitan ritual to gain corpsecrafter benefits). Arcane disciple will add that domain to your spells known if you have the wisdom score to cast them, the spell domain will get you added versatility through anyspell and greater anyspell (wraithstrike works amazingly with power attack). Mother cyst adds yet more spells and versatility to your character pulling off dominates and other useful abilities. Most of these feats can be swapped around but these are some flavourful suggestions.

Indeed they are flavourful. Never heard of the southern magician feat. Sounds necessary. What book is that in?

[Aegis013]

Traditionally, level adjustment is a bad thing for you as they are rarely more powerful than class levels would have been and often much less powerful.

If you were to try building him like I suggested earlier the following would work alright.

Race: Human (Necropolitan)

...

If you're going Necropolitan, Spellstitched from Complete Arcane is a great addition. Some SLAs, and more turn resistance and some other benefits. +0 LA (+1 CR), it may have been intended to have LA, but I'm not sure. Just as a thought.

[Jheska]

As Aegis points out getting someone to spellstitch yourself can be very useful, one spell you likely want turned into a few times a day SLA is animate dead. Then he can expand his horde without having to carry a mountain of black onyx.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Doesn't Dread Necromancer cast arcane spells, and thus doesn't work for Ruby Knight Vindicator?

Yes. You need divine casting to get into RKV and Dread Neccromancer is Arcane.

Just Cleric, even without PrC can do you need. Bone Knight might be useful.

[docnessuno]

Seconding Jheska suggestion, but the "spell" domain may not be avaiable/appropriate for the intended deity.
As for feat, i personally dislike mother cyst

1: Southern Magician
H: Corpsecrafter
3: Nimble Bones
6: Destruction Retribution
9: Quicken spell
12: Rapid metamagic
15: Power Attack
18: Divine metamagic (Quicken)
21: Unholy Toughness (to give the cha to hp ability of the same name)
24: Undead mastery
Also epic RKV should grant at leat 1 epic feat during 5 levels, so i'd go for: Extra domain (that, for an arcane spellcaster, adds the full domain to the spells known)

[Jheska]

While the spell domain was previously used to fuel power attacks, I highly support this mans choice of feats. Nuke their various stats into oblivion with multiple swift action debuffs, though I fear your varient is a little bit starved for turn attempts without nightstick stacking.

You're loosing 5 turn attempts to each divine-metamagic-quickened spell, another if you plan on using divine impetus to do so. Whilst this is fine be aware you will swiftly (no pun intended) run out.

Mother cyst is mainly to add a bunch of spells that are very different from what he could already achieve with the Dread Necromancer casting.

[docnessuno]

While the spell domain was previously used to fuel power attacks, I highly support this mans choice of feats. Nuke their various stats into oblivion with multiple swift action debuffs, though I fear your varient is a little bit starved for turn attempts without nightstick stacking.

You're loosing 5 turn attempts to each divine-metamagic-quickened spell, another if you plan on using divine impetus to do so. Whilst this is fine be aware you will swiftly (no pun intended) run out.

Mother cyst is mainly to add a bunch of spells that are very different from what he could already achieve with the Dread Necromancer casting.

Consider that with 9th level spell slots a good bunch of the spells can be quickened spending a minimal amount of turn attempts (or none at all).

[JaronK]

What about a Cleric X/PrC Paladin of Tyranny 2/Bone Knight 10 as a basic idea (feel free to add levels). With the Holy Mount feat he's got an even better mount than a normal Paladin... but he's got plenty of Cleric casting and can wade into the battle with the best of them. Plus, he can have undeath like abilities without being undead (which has some handy uses).

Note that there's no sense being a Bone Knight if you're already undead (most of the abilities it gives wouldn't matter).

JaronK

[leegi0n]

though I fear your varient is a little bit starved for turn attempts without nightstick stacking.

Yeah, I was thinking that.... I want to breed the walking dead, not turn 'em away.

...or am I misinterpreting the whole "turn" thing?

Also, by "Crusader", you're referring to Divine Crusader (Complete Divine) correct?

[Flickerdart]

Yeah, I was thinking that.... I want to breed the walking dead, not turn 'em away.
That's why you use the Turn Undeads on DMM.

[leegi0n]

DMM = divine metamagic?

[Flickerdart]

The very same. Nobody actually uses TU for turning undead. Rebuking's a bit better, but you don't get enough HD per critter to make it worth it, really.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Yeah, I was thinking that.... I want to breed the walking dead, not turn 'em away.

...or am I misinterpreting the whole "turn" thing?

Also, by "Crusader", you're referring to Divine Crusader (Complete Divine) correct?

Crusader is the base class from Tome of Battle: Book of the Nine Swords. A late issue book that makes melee actually worth it. They are all solid tier 3 classes. They get what is colloquially called "weapon-magic." They get things called maneuvers which are similar to the power and scope as Invocations but are not magic (for the most part) and don't replicate spells (for the most part). If you don't have the book, I highly suggest you find a copy, even if not for this character but for future ues.

[leegi0n]

Dread Necro7/Crusader3/Ruby Knight Vindicator10

RKV only goes to 10, as I'm sure you know. I'd like to top him out at around lvl 25, epic status. What would that progression look like as far as BAB, and save modifications? I don't have the epic level handbook (if that's what I need), though I plan to get it.

Should I just add more levels to Dread Necro and/or Crusader and let the 10 levels of RKV end at 25?

[MesiDoomstalker]

Dread Necro7/Crusader3/Ruby Knight Vindicator10

RKV only goes to 10, as I'm sure you know. I'd like to top him out at around lvl 25, epic status. What would that progression look like as far as BAB, and save modifications? I don't have the epic level handbook (if that's what I need), though I plan to get it.

Should I just add more levels to Dread Necro and/or Crusader and let the 10 levels of RKV end at 25?

Dread Necro is arcane. RKV needs divine. How many times do I have to point this out before people realize this isn't a legal build for that reason.

[docnessuno]

Dread Necro is arcane. RKV needs divine. How many times do I have to point this out before people realize this isn't a legal build for that reason.

Please, go and read the southern magician feat.


Dread Necro7/Crusader3/Ruby Knight Vindicator10

RKV only goes to 10, as I'm sure you know. I'd like to top him out at around lvl 25, epic status. What would that progression look like as far as BAB, and save modifications? I don't have the epic level handbook (if that's what I need), though I plan to get it.

Should I just add more levels to Dread Necro and/or Crusader and let the 10 levels of RKV end at 25?

Before creating epic level characters, you should at least know the epic level rules. Any 10 level PRC may progress over the base 10 levels in epic play.
Also you really want the 8th dread necromancer level, and the crusader levels should be taken at the suggested points to be able to grab the right stances.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Please, go and read the southern magician feat.



Before creating epic level characters, you should at least know the epic level rules. Any 10 level PRC may progress over the base 10 levels in epic play.
Also you really want the 8th dread necromancer level, and the crusader levels should be taken at the suggested points to be able to grab the right stances.

If I had the book I would. I hear its something to the effect of limited ability to cast arcane as divine but without having read it my self I don't use it as all my knowledge is heresay. And the build I was responding too did not mention is so I can't assume it was taken to qualify for RKV.

On the epic note, I'd advise against taking RKV into epic levels. You'll lose a CL every 5 levels (levels 11, 16, 21 etc.) and you gain nothing more besides epic feats. Your probably better off taking levels in a regular, combat-focused or undead focused PrC that you qualify for.

[docnessuno]

If I had the book I would. I hear its something to the effect of limited ability to cast arcane as divine but without having read it my self I don't use it as all my knowledge is heresay. And the build I was responding too did not mention is so I can't assume it was taken to qualify for RKV.

On the epic note, I'd advise against taking RKV into epic levels. You'll lose a CL every 5 levels (levels 11, 16, 21 etc.) and you gain nothing more besides epic feats. Your probably better off taking levels in a regular, combat-focused or undead focused PrC that you qualify for.

And you continue both CL and initiator level progression, allowing you to pick up 9th level manouvers (instead of max 8th level ones at level 20) AND to reach 9th level spells (instead of max 8th level ones at level 20)

[MesiDoomstalker]

And you continue both CL and initiator level progression, allowing you to pick up 9th level manouvers (instead of max 8th level ones at level 20) AND to reach 9th level spells (instead of max 8th level ones at level 20)

There are no rules for continueing Maneuvers into epic so thats up to leegi0n to decide if they continue and if so how they do. At a certain point, a character would know and ready all maneuvers if they progressed into epic (barring taking non-epic levels of a martial adept of course). And if he takes a regular PrC, even at epic levels, could still get him to 9th casting as long as the PrC advances casting. What I'm saying is new abilities are better than 4/5ths casting progression as that is the only thing we can for sure say about epic RKV. Abjurant Champion would serve well for his purposes over epic RKV. Possibly at the last level taking another level of Crusader for high level manuvers and stances. Unyielding Fortitude is quite epic in my opinion.

I still hold firm that Cleric entry into RKV would do better than Dread Necro, debate about legality of such entry aside.

[Jheska]

And I agree that cleric is indeed more powerful than dread necromancer, however he stated he wanted

1. Someone who can create/summon a legion of undead and command them, effectively.

2. Someone who can use nasty, crippling, spells including (but not limited to) death effect(s), etc.

3. Someone who can wade into the thick of a battle and wreck some serious shop.

On points one and two dread necromancer wins hands down. On point three cleric's big advantages fade somewhat when backed up by crusader maneuvers. Cleric is no doubt more powerful, but Dread Necromancer better fits his requirements.

[leegi0n]

I agree, and that's the way I'm gonna construct this monster.

Something like this:

Dread Necro8/Crusader7/Ruby Knight Vindicator10

is there any 'general' modifications that I will need to make when I cross the lvl. 20 line? ...considering I will still be in the preset class?

[MesiDoomstalker]

I agree, and that's the way I'm gonna construct this monster.

Something like this:

Dread Necro8/Crusader7/Ruby Knight Vindicator10

is there any 'general' modifications that I will need to make when I cross the lvl. 20 line? ...considering I will still be in the preset class?

I would try the build like this:

Dread Necro 8/Crusader 1/RKV 10/Abjurant Champion 5/Crusader +1

For the life of me I can't remember where Dread Necro is so I can't comment on the selection of Abjuration spells they have access to. If it its subpar, Abjurant Champion may not be the best bet. But whatever you do, don't go back to Crusader after RKV is over. Getting 9th spells is better than 9th maneuvers. A single Crusader level at ECL 25 will nab you 9th level maneuvers for minimal loss of casting ability. Can Crusader enter Jade Pheonix Mage? If so, that might be better than Abjurant Champion but I wouldn't go out of the way to enter Jade Phoenix Mage.

EDIT: Crusader can enter Jade Phoenix Mage but it requires Nonevil and this guy sounds like BBEG material. You could always wave the pre-req though. It is a pretty good Gish class and this guy is somewhat gishy so it can benefit from it. By 6th you can burn a slot to give a bonus to hit and damage, burn a slot for Dr/evil equal to 2x spell level, and burn a slot to give yourself a fire aura. A few other things too but they are less note worthy. If you do JFM, I would choose primarily non-devoted spirit maneuvers for Crusader and RKV as JPM has only access to Devoted Spirit and Desert Wind. If you can stomach having this character being ECL 26, I'd swap out some RKV levels for JPM.

Dread Necro 8/Crusader 1/RKV 7/JPM 10 would snag you the best of RKV plus the capstone of JPM which is just gravy. You'll also cast as a 21th level Dread Necromancer (-1 from Crusader, -2 from RKV and -2 from JPM).

[leegi0n]

For the life of me I can't remember where Dread Necro is

It's in Heroes of Horror, for future reference.

[MesiDoomstalker]

It's in Heroes of Horror, for future reference.

Thanks! Quick look at their spell list shows you may not even qualify for Abjurant Champion. So JPM is probably your best bet.

[kardar233]

The other problem is that even with Southern Magician, I don't think Dread Necro qualifies for the spellcasting progression of RKV. We'd have to call in some RAW heavyweights to know for sure.

Time to activate the Curmudgeon-signal!

[leegi0n]

Someone should make this a Playground Iron Chef Challenge.

[DoctorGlock]

Divine casters are far better at the necromancy thing and with the right domain picks can easily pull even the better arcane tricks (negative level beam spam), decay domain I think gets the enervation line...

Clerics do tend to make better gishes as well. Consider bone knight from eberron for a death knight feel without even needing the template.

If there is any reason for a melee build with a scythe to use cleric however it's surge of fortune+vorpal scythe. let the reaping begin.

[DonutBoy12321]

Dread Necromancer has, if I remember correctly, exactly zero Abjuration spells. Its spell list is Necromancy based.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Dread Necromancer has, if I remember correctly, exactly zero Abjuration spells. Its spell list is Necromancy based.

Oh, it does have a couple of Abjuration spells, enough to qualify for AbChamp, however since the vast majority of the spell list is not Abjuration, and you don't get the most commonly used ones (shield, dispel magic), it isn't very worth it to you.

Southern Magician allows your spells to be considered to be either arcane or divine, whichever you prefer. So it would, in fact, qualify for RKV.

RKV is definitely a good way to go about doing this. For an alternate, look up the Scarecrow build in my Dread Necro Reanimated guide. Basically, ends up grabbing the Pride domain which has Divine Power in it, then DMM:Persist'ing it. Also DMM:Persist Aura of Terror + Dread Witch = good times.

Basically, even if they are immune to fear, they're still affected by the fear effect, which is Will save or Frightened. Tack on a way for it to deal damage (snowcasting/piercing cold) and you can add in Fell Frighten for a total of Panicked. Or you can just use Kelgore's Grave Mist + Fell Frighten to soften up opponents with Shaken, no save and no SR, then have it bump up to panicked once they get in your aura.

It's good action economy, because you don't expend actions for your aura of fear. They get close, and are affected. Which might even ruin their actions, since they were probably trying to Ubercharge you, and had to interrupt that to perform a Piddle Self/Run combo.

It's not quite as beefy as the RKV option, mostly due to not having Crusader and not having unlimited swift/standard actions available to yourself (WRT... my friend, my foe), but the fear aura thing is pretty damn cool. He exudes badass in a way which is palpable... he makes even the most hardened of grizzly veterans turn tail and run just because they get too close to his fearful visage.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Dread Necromancer has, if I remember correctly, exactly zero Abjuration spells. Its spell list is Necromancy based.

Yes I figured that out. I was working without the book and warned against it if it lacked many abjurations. I even said to forget Abjurant Champion once I found its spell list.

@Shneeky: They do get Dispel Magic [/nitpcik]