Scout/Ranger "Swift Hunter" dip help?

[Yutiko]

Hi there, new to the forums and actually made an account to ask you guys this since whenever I search a question about d&d this forum pops up. Sorry in advance for the long post. Also should mention this is only my second character so I'm sorry if I come off as a total idiot.

I am going for an archer type class with mulit-attacks and skirmishes. For terms of being better in combat when should I dip into scout/ranger levels? I was thinking 1 scout/2 ranger -> 4 scout/2 ranger -> Level ranger the rest of the way. The reason I was thinking this is so that I can quickly get the Ranger feat while having a Skirmish die off the bat. Then go to 4 Scout for the bonus feat.

However I have seen some people say that getting 3 Scout and THEN getting 2 Ranger is the better option, but I am not sure why.

Also are there any tips you would suggest? (A dip into another class for something, feats, etc.?)

At level one my stats are 11, 17, 13, 15, 13, 11. Would you rearrange those stats? Also I took Noncombatant as a flaw so I could start with Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot, and WF: Longbow.

[Gavinfoxx]

Have you read this?

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=103.0

[Yutiko]

I have read over that, but I am still lost as to why he has going to level 3 in Scout before dipping into Ranger. He doesn't state a reason as far as I know, and getting the that first Ranger feat sooner seems better to me.

[Gavinfoxx]

Well you want to get Swift Hunter at level 5. One example has it done by Scout 3/Ranger1/Scout+1, another does it by Scout1/Ranger1/Scout+3, but getting the feat Swift Hunter as early as possible is ideal.

[Yutiko]

Okay, so really it doesn't matter much when I dip into those classes as long as I get Swift Hunter by level 5. That means the way I was planning on going wouldn't work =/. (Somehow I missed the 1d6/+1 part on the feat requirement.)

Any other class dips you would suggest? I hear dipping into 1Cleric for some sort of Travel is very useful, but I haven't looked into that.

[Gavinfoxx]

Yea, dipping Cloistered Cleric for Travel Devotion is great...

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2773.0

People go Travel Devotion, the Time or Celerity domain, and Knowledge Devotion.

[Yutiko]

How would I get around the xp penalty/when should I dip into Cloistered Cleric that the xp penalty wouldn't matter? I'm assuming right after I get Swift Hunter at 5 would be a good dip.

[Thespianus]

If you take 1 level of Cloistered Cleric and 3 or more of Scout, and even more of Ranger, you can't avoid the XP penalties for multiclassing, as far as I know. Many DMs skip the rules for XP penalties, as it limits character development in ways that seem unnecessary, but if your DM runs by them, the XP penalty might be reason enough to skip the CC dip.

[Gavinfoxx]

"Extra Favored Class" feat, if necessary. Cloistered Cleric is for the non XP penalty using games, mostly...

[Darrin]

Okay, so really it doesn't matter much when I dip into those classes as long as I get Swift Hunter by level 5.


The crux of the matter is you generally want to get Swift Hunter out of the way and then get move + full attack working as quickly as possible (usually with Greater Manyshot). There's a bottleneck for most of the important archery feats at BAB +6, but since Scout isn't a full-BAB class, this may delay things like Greater Manyshot and Improved Rapid Shot until at least 9th level. The Scout 4 bonus feat or some of the Ranger ACFs can help you pick up an important feat between 6th-9th. Ideally, to get Greater Multishot online as quickly as possible, you'll want to start with:

1) Scout 1. Feat: PB Shot. Human Feat: Travel Devotion
2) Ranger 1. Bonus: Track
3) Ranger 2. Bonus: Rapid Shot. Feat: Precise Shot
4) Scout 2.
5) Scout 3.
6) Ranger 3. Feat: Swift Hunter. Bonus: Endurance.
7) Ranger 4.
8) Ranger 5.
9) Ranger 6. Bonus: Manyshot. Feat: Greater Manyshot.
10) Scout 4. Bonus: Improved Skirmish.

(Finish off with Ranger +10 or Ranger +8/Highland Stalker 2)



Any other class dips you would suggest? I hear dipping into 1Cleric for some sort of Travel is very useful, but I haven't looked into that.


Dipping Cloistered Cleric (particularly as an elf, worshipping Sehanine Moonbow) can get you the Travel Devotion and the Turn Undead attempts to fuel it along with two bonus feats: PB Shot (Elf domain) and the Knowledge Devotion (Knowledge check as a free action to get bonus hit/damage). This delays getting Greater Manyshot until 12th level, but you don't need it quite so much because you can use Travel Devotion multiple times per day.

To avoid multiclass penalties... start with a Wood Elf (favored class: Ranger), and maybe slip Extra Favored Class in there somewhere:

1) Cloistered Cleric 1. Elf Domain (PB Shot), Travel Devotion, Knowledge Devotion, Feat: Precise Shot
2) Scout 1.
3) Ranger 1. Feat: Extra Favored Class. Bonus: Track.
4) Ranger 2. Bonus: Rapid Shot
5) Scout 2.
6) Scout 3. Feat: Swift Hunter.
7) Scout 4. Bonus: Improved Skirmish.
8) Ranger 3. Bonus. Endurance.
9) Ranger 4. Feat: Improved Rapid Shot.
10) Ranger 5.
11) Ranger 6. Bonus: Manyshot.
12) Ranger 7. Feat: Greater Manyshot.

Consider dipping Highland Stalker for 2 levels (you qualify pretty much by just being a Ranger), particularly after you just got an additional Skirmish die. Normally you'd have to wait for another 4 levels to get another Skirmish die, but Highland Stalker gets +1d6 after only 2 levels.

As far as other dips... that can be difficult to do since anything that isn't a Ranger or Scout level will delay your Skirmish progression. However, there are at least two classes that can advance Skirmish damage *quicker* than more levels of Scout/Ranger/Highland Stalker: Dragon Devotee and Unseen Seer. Since you aren't getting as many bonus feats, it gets pretty tight feat-wise... but you can get up to 8d6 Skirmish damage (or 10d6 with Improved Skirmish):

Race: Human, Azurin, Strongheart Halfling
1) Ranger 1. Feat: Travel Devotion, Bonus: PB Shot, Bonus: Track
2) Ranger 2. Bonus: Rapid Shot
3) Scout 1. Feat: Precise Shot. Skirmish 1d6
4) Scout 2. Skirmish 1d6.
5) Scout 3. Skirmish 1d6 +1
6) Scout 4. Feat: Swift Hunter. Bonus: Improved Skirmish. Skirmish 2d6 +1/4d6 +3.
7) Dragon Devotee 1.
8) Dragon Devotee 2. Skirmish 3d6 +1/5d6 +3
9) Dragon Devotee 3. Feat: Manyshot. 1st level Sorcerer casting (get at least 2 divination spells)
10) Dragon Devotee 4. Skirmish 4d6 +1/6d6 +3
11) Unseen Seer 1. Skirmish 5d6 +1/7d6 +3
12) Unseen Seer 2. Feat: Greater Manyshot. Advanced Learning: Hunter's Eye
13) Unseen Seer 3.
14) Unseen Seer 4. Skirmish 6d6 +1/8d6 +3
15) Highland Stalker 1. Feat: Improved Rapid Shot.
16) Highland Stalker 2. Skirmish 7d6 +1/9d6 +3
17) Ranger 3. Bonus: Endurance. Skirmish 7d6 +2/9d6 +4
18) Ranger 4. Feat: Travel Devotion.
19) Ranger 5. Skirmish 8d6 +2/10d6 +4
20) Spellsword 1.

You can also get Swift Hunter *without* any Scout levels and with full BAB via Simple (Sneak Attack) Fighter 1 and Highland Stalker 4:

Race: Human, Azurin, Strongheart Halfing, Frostblood Orc/Half-Orc
1) Ranger 1. Feat: Travel devotion, Bonus: PB Shot, Bonus: Track
2) Ranger 2. Bonus: Rapid Shot
3) Ranger 3. Feat: Precise Shot. Bonus: Endurance
4) Ranger 4.
5) Simple Fighter. Sneak Attack 1d6
6) H.Stalker 1. Feat: Imp. Rapid Shot
7) H.Stalker 2. Skirmish 1d6
8) H.Stalker 3.
9) H.Stalker 4. Feat: Swift Hunter. Skirmish 2d6 +2.
10) Ranger 5. Skirmish 3d6 +2.
11) Ranger 6. Bonus: Manyshot
12) Ranger 7. Feat: Greater Manyshot. Skirmish 3d6 +3.
13) H.Stalker 5.
14) H.Stalker 6. Skirmish 4d6 +3
15) Ranger 8. Feat: Imp. Skirmish. Skirmish 4d6 +3/6d6 +5
16) Ranger 9. Skirmish 5d6 +3/7d6 +5
17) Ranger 10.
18) Ranger 11. Feat: Travel Devotion, Bonus: Imp. Precise Shot. Skirmish 5d6 +4/7d6 +6
19) Ranger 12.
20) Ranger 13. Skirmish 6d6 +4/8d6 +6

To get the most out of Swift Hunter, remember that in addition to stacking Ranger/Scout levels for Skirmish damage, it also allows you to apply skirmish damage to favored enemies that would normally be immune. This includes: constructs, elementals, oozes, plants, and undead. Since you're not going full ranger, you'll probably get three favored enemies. Take undead first, since it's the most common/dangerous, followed by constructs and then elementals. Oozes are generally easy to deal with so long as they don't surprise you: max out your Spot ranks and walk around 'em. Plants tend to be immobile and highly flammable (ask your DM if a wand of vine strike allows you to deal Skirmish damage to them).

There are several Ranger ACFs to consider as well:

Arcane Hunter (Complete Mage, Ranger 1). Fantastic ACF, particularly at higher levels where anything really dangerous also tends to cast arcane spells. However, you only get a limited number of Favored Enemies, so it's probably more important to get Skirmish damage against undead and constructs than it is to get favored enemy (arcanists).

Trap Expert (Dungeonscape, Ranger 1). Swap Track for Trapfinding and Disable Device as a class skill. Not necessary, since Scout gets Trapfinding. If you didn't pick up Trapfinding from Scout, then consider picking it up via ACF, unless you're going into Highland Stalker, which needs Track as a prereq.

Champion of the Wild (Complete Champion, Ranger 1). Swap your spellcasting for bonus feats at 4th, 8th, 11th and 14th levels. I recommend against this ACF, because Ranger spells add quite a bit of utility to the class, particularly if you have access to the Spell Compendium and PHBII. Even in Core, someone who can top off the party's HPs with a wand of CLW can be quite handy. The other problem with this ACF is most of the bonus feats available completely *suck* and other than one or two exceptions, you wouldn't want to take them anyway... although it can be a handy way to pick up Manyshot at Ranger 4 if you're not going to take any more Ranger levels. If your DM opens up the bonus feat list to more archery-related or Fighter bonus feats, then it might be more worthwhile, but losing your Ranger spells is still a bad trade-off. There's another ACF in Complete Warrior where you can trade your spellcasting ability for some other class features, but they don't become available early enough to be useful.

Spiritual Connection (Complete Champion, Ranger 1). Swap Animal Empathy for speak with animals or plants 3/day. Maybe we were playing it wrong, but whenever my group tried to use Animal Empathy, it only told us two things: the animal was angry (roll for initiative) or the animal was hungry (roll for initiative). It's supposed to work like diplomacy for animals, but it never seemed to work that way for us... at low levels, it's not likely to improve the animal's mood and thus not worth wasting an action, and at mid- to higher levels, animals don't tend to be much of a threat that you'd have to bother. Being able to talk with plants/animals and ask for specific information, however, can be pretty darned useful.

Spiritual Guide (Complete Champion, Ranger 4). The ranger's animal companion is usually too weak to be anything other than a potential bloodsmear you have to devote resources to just keeping it alive. So while I recommend trading it away for an ACF, I usually prefer to pick up Distracting Attack (see below) rather than this one. Besides, I find feats/abilities that give skill bonuses to be completely boring... if I wanted to be better at Spot, that's what I have skill ranks for! Also, since you're not going straight Ranger 20, you don't get the full benefit of this ACF, which annoys me. However, being able to cast commune with nature 1/day may actually be worth it, since this is a great spell get information out of the DM that he's been sitting on because some idiot traded his Track feat for Trapfinding, or you can prompt the DM for "Clue-By-Fours" when the party gets completely stuck.

Distracting Attack (PHBII, Ranger 4). Turn your bloodsmear-waiting-to-happen into extra damage for the party rogue or even yourself (you can get some sneak attack damage from the hunter's eye spell in the same book). I generally prefer this over Spiritual Companion, but the flanking bonus can be situational and won't work on certain creature types (mostly elementals, oozes, and swarms).

And finally... check and see if Mystic Ranger (Dragon #336) is available. This delays your Combat Style by a level, but the accelerated spellcasting is a fantastic boost to your utility, particulary if you can squeeze Sword of the Arcane Order in there somewhere to pick up 1st-5th wizard spells.

[skycycle blues]

To avoid multiclass penalties... start with a Wood Elf (favored class: Ranger), and maybe slip Extra Favored Class in there somewhere:

1) Cloistered Cleric 1. Elf Domain (PB Shot), Travel Devotion, Knowledge Devotion, Feat: Precise Shot
2) Scout 1.
3) Ranger 1. Feat: Extra Favored Class. Bonus: Track.
4) Ranger 2. Bonus: Rapid Shot
5) Scout 2.
6) Scout 3. Feat: Swift Hunter.
7) Scout 4. Bonus: Improved Skirmish.
8) Ranger 3. Bonus. Endurance.
9) Ranger 4. Feat: Improved Rapid Shot.
10) Ranger 5.
11) Ranger 6. Bonus: Manyshot.
12) Ranger 7. Feat: Greater Manyshot.

Consider dipping Highland Stalker for 2 levels (you qualify pretty much by just being a Ranger), particularly after you just got an additional Skirmish die. Normally you'd have to wait for another 4 levels to get another Skirmish die, but Highland Stalker gets +1d6 after only 2 levels.


How is this build starting with Travel Devotion and Knowledge Devotion without flaws?

[Greenish]

How is this build starting with Travel Devotion and Knowledge Devotion without flaws?Switching out domains.

[skycycle blues]

Switching out domains.

And you can do that even when you wouldn't normally be able to choose a feat? That's not a reading I'm familiar with.

Edit: I just looked at Complete Champion, and it does seem to indicate that you could do that at any level, which seems weird to me. As a DM, I probably wouldn't allow it because of that, but I'm not the OP's DM.

But anyway, to the OP, Knowledge Devotion has Knowledge: Any(5 ranks) as a prerequisite, so you still wouldn't be able to have it first level. And don't forget that even though Cloistered Cleric has all Knowledges as class skills, those are gained through Knowledge Domain. Whether or not you lose Arcana, History, Religion and Planes (the ones regular Clerics get) by trading in Knowledge Devotion is debatable (and you should figure out how your DM would rule on it before choosing the build), but you also gain a Knowledge as a class skill when you get Knowledge Devotion.

[Quietus]

Also worth noting that unless your deity offers the Knowledge (or inquisition/mind) domain, you can't actually trade out the cloistered cleric's Knowledge domain for Knowledge Devotion. Clerics are limited to taking devotion feats which match those their deity offers, as described on page 53 on Complete Champion. You could go the "worship a cause" route, but then you need to convince the DM that the domains fit thematically. To compare to the Sehanine Moonbow example earlier, taking Elf, Travel, and Knowledge is a very odd mix.

[Darrin]

But anyway, to the OP, Knowledge Devotion has Knowledge: Any(5 ranks) as a prerequisite, so you still wouldn't be able to have it first level.


Good catch. Never noticed that before. So... take Scout 1 or Ranger 1 first, then take Cloistered Cleric 1 next and make sure you buy 5 ranks of Knowledge (something). (By RAW, I don't see anywhere that cloistered clerics lose any class skills.)


To compare to the Sehanine Moonbow example earlier, taking Elf, Travel, and Knowledge is a very odd mix.

I'm not sure that I agree that it's an odd mix (otherwise Fodors would be in some very deep kimshee), but Travel and Knowledge are indeed both part of her domain portfolio. Elf Domain is probably more difficult to support, since that domain only appears in online sources and Forgotten Realms sourcebooks.

[skycycle blues]

Good catch. Never noticed that before. So... take Scout 1 or Ranger 1 first, then take Cloistered Cleric 1 next and make sure you buy 5 ranks of Knowledge (something). (By RAW, I don't see anywhere that cloistered clerics lose any class skills.)

The list of class skills for Cloistered Cleric says "all Knowledge skills (from the Knowledge domain)," so if you trade away Knowledge Domain, you lose at least all Knowledge skills that Clerics don't normally have. RAW seems to indicate you would lose all Knowledge Skills as Cloistered Cleric class skills because you only have them in virtue of Knowledge Domain.

[Gavinfoxx]

I think you can take Knowledge devotion if you have the domain and saacri, or if you follow a god that grants the knowledge domain AND have the feat prerequisites (5 ranks, etc.)...

[Darrin]

RAW seems to indicate you would lose all Knowledge Skills as Cloistered Cleric class skills because you only have them in virtue of Knowledge Domain.

RAW says absolutely nothing about losing or removing class skills from the cleric's existing skill list. Otherwise, by RAW, cloistered cleric wouldn't have Concentration, Craft, Diplomacy, Heal, Profession, or Spellcraft, because those aren't included in the cloistered cleric's "Class Skills" description.