God ability damage is soo overpowered!

[Devronq]

Anyone else raging about this? Im playing in a group and the cleric has moon bolt and the psion has ego whip.Basically this means that a single target will be taken down in 1-2 rounds no matter what as both spells are save for half. Moon bolt deals str damage like 5d4 at max level and ego whip deals cha damage like 4d4 at max and seeing as there both save for half it seems like there way way to good for there level as anything that isnt immune to ability damage even if they have like +5000all saves will be taken down NO MATTER WHAT!
They both have assay spell resistance so that means SR doesnt really matter in this case. Any idea how i can protect my "boss creatures" from being taken down so pathetically easy? What are easy ways to get Mettle or ability damage immunity? I could make them all undead or elementals but that seems cheesy, i have every single book and i found zero items and zero spells that grant immunity to ability damage and that just plain doesn't seem right, what as i missing and what can i do?

[The-Mage-King]

...What?


...If I'm parsing this rant correctly, you are annoyed by your players using ability damage to kill things.


There's a pair of solutions to that.


First, there's Magic of Incarnum. A little soulmeld called "Strongheart vest" will help out- it reduces any ability damage taken by 1. Adding more Essentia increases the amount of reduction.


Second, there's Tome of Magic, specifically, the only real part of the book. There's a Vestige called Naberius, I believe, that gives the character with him bound Fast Ability Healing.


There are a few other solutions, but I can't recall them off the top of my head. I'll let the forum work its magic.

[Gavinfoxx]

Why not just have one of the various spells up that renders you immune to ability damage?

[Shadowleaf]

Moon Bolts affect Undeads just fine, doesn't it? :smallconfused:

But yea, Ability Damage can be pretty brutal if optimized. 4d4 or better Charisma damage per turn wrecks most monsters, since most monsters have terrible Charisma scores.

There are a ton of monsters immune to mind-affecting effects though, and most of them usually have massive Strength scores. Either this, or use multiple enemies - Using 2 rounds to Ego Whip a guy to a comatose state isn't very effecient when has 9 buddies with him.

Edit: Or just Ego Whip Moon Bolt them right back. The spell/power is fairly cheesy, and if my players cheese, I'd cheese right back.

[Devronq]

i dont know how to quote what some one else says, but someone just said why not use one of the many spells that protect against it? ya what ones i cant find any?

[Gavinfoxx]

Body Ward, Sheltered Vitality, maybe Death Ward... there are some other relevant buffing spells that incidentally protect from ability damage, don't they?

[The-Mage-King]

...You quote by clicking that little button that says "QUOTE" on the bottom right of the person you want to quote's post.


As for what spells, I believe the "Heart of" spells protect from it, and Mind Blank protects against Ego Whip, at the very least. There are plenty more, too.

[Shadowleaf]

Body Ward, Sheltered Vitality, maybe Death Ward... there are some other relevant buffing spells that incidentally protect from ability damage, don't they?Death Ward doesn't work.

Sheltered Vitality works, Iron Body works, being a construct works, Talisman of Undying Fortitude works, and probably tons of stuff I forget.

Edit: This is what 2 minutes of searching time got me on these forums. I suggest using the 'Search' function for similiar subjects.

[Calanon]

Anyone else raging about this? Im playing in a group and the cleric has moon bolt and the psion has ego whip.Basically this means that a single target will be taken down in 1-2 rounds no matter what as both spells are save for half. Moon bolt deals str damage like 5d4 at max level and ego whip deals cha damage like 4d4 at max and seeing as there both save for half it seems like there way way to good for there level as anything that isnt immune to ability damage even if they have like +5000all saves will be taken down NO MATTER WHAT!
They both have assay spell resistance so that means SR doesnt really matter in this case. Any idea how i can protect my "boss creatures" from being taken down so pathetically easy? What are easy ways to get Mettle or ability damage immunity? I could make them all undead or elementals but that seems cheesy, i have every single book and i found zero items and zero spells that grant immunity to ability damage and that just plain doesn't seem right, what as i missing and what can i do?

Attack them with a Lich... :smallannoyed: There are few problems a little Undeath can't solve :)


(Undead are) Not subject to critical hits, nonlethal damage, ability drain, or energy drain. Immune to damage to its physical ability scores (Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution), as well as to fatigue and exhaustion effects.


Psychic Turmoil
Abjuration
Level: Cleric 5, sorcerer/wizard 5
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Area: 40-ft.-radius emanation centered on a point in space
Duration: 1 round/level
Saving Throw: Will partial; see text
Spell Resistance: Yes
With this spell, you create an invisible field that leeches away the power points of psionic characters standing within the emanation. Nonpsionic characters are unaffected.

When the spell is cast and at the beginning of each of your subsequent turns, psionic creatures within the area of the psychic turmoil lose 1 power point per manifester level they have. Characters who succeed on a Will save when they first come into contact with the emanation lose only half as many power points (round down) each round. Characters get only one save attempt against any particular psychic turmoil effect, even if they leave the spell’s area and later return.

Material Component
Five playing cards, which are torn in half when the spell is cast.


SHELTERED VITALITY
Abjuration
Level: Cleric 3, druid 4
Components: V, S, DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: Living creature touched
Duration: 1 min./level
Saving Throw: Fortitude negates
(harmless)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)
The subject gains immunity to fatigue,
exhaustion, and ability damage or drain
(regardless of the source).
TELL YOUR PLAYERS I SAID "COME AT ME, BRO(s)!"
I recommend the ever classic Lich Cleric of Orcus :smallannoyed:
You have now effectively made the two trouble makers useless (Please don't forget to equip your Lich with a ring of Positive Energy protection (36,000gp but so worth it)). The level of optimization on these two might make this entire plan moot of course.

[Garwain]

Or just Ego Whip Moon Bolt them right back. The spell/power is fairly cheesy, and if my players cheese, I'd cheese right back.Don't engage in a cheese battle, it will only mess up your style. Counter them with more mooks, more immunities. And don't give them meta-information. Let them burn a few Moon Bolts before they realise it's ineffective against your immunity.

[Killer Angel]

Moon bolt? have fun with Spell Turning.

(edit: not familiar with psionic, so cannot tell anything on that)

[Cespenar]

Mental Resistance feat from Expanded Psionics Handbook will reduce ability damage from psionic powers by 3.

Mental Juggernaut from Complete Psionic will completely nullify the Ego Whip as long as you have psionic focus to expend.

Combining this with Psicrystal Containment will let you ignore the first two Ego Whips without costing you any actions. Funnily, from the way I read it, Mental Juggernaut only nullifies the consequences of a failed save. It doesn't do anything for the consequences of a success, so if you plan to use it, don't get your will save too high. :smallbiggrin:

[Psyren]

Attack them with a Lich... :smallannoyed: There are few problems a little Undeath can't solve :)

Nitpick: undead are only immune to ability damage to their physical scores. If you have a non-mind-affecting/non-disease/non-poison way to damage their mental stats, you certainly can do so.


Moon bolt? have fun with Spell Turning.

(edit: not familiar with psionic, so cannot tell anything on that)

It's mind-affecting, so it's not too hard to protect against.

[Big Fau]

Nitpick: undead are only immune to ability damage to their physical scores. If you have a non-mind-affecting/non-disease/non-poison way to damage their mental stats, you certainly can do so.


I think you missed something:


Ego Whip
Telepathy [Mind-Affecting]

[Aegis013]

... Talisman of Undying Fortitude works...

What my bosses and major encounters have all of the time. If I think they'll survive more than 3 rounds, they have two. That thing is quite nice.

[Psyren]

I think you missed something:

No, I didn't miss that. I wasn't referring to Ego Whip in particular. The person I quoted stated that undead was the solution to all ability damage woes.

I flat-out said "non-mind-affecting" in my post. Cripes, at least read it.

[Big Fau]

I flat-out said "non-mind-affecting" in my post. Cripes, at least read it.

And that teaches me not to skim...

[ericgrau]

moon bolt... ego whip....assay spell resistance
There are 2 solutions to this:
1. Spend hours on forums finding counters, D&D becomes boring and annoying anyway because somebody WILL find that one hole that still exists. Entire fights are instantly won or lost based on this hole, which is boring and dumb. For some reason this is a common solution with vehement supporters. Why, I don't know. Maybe DMs are masochists or players love their toys and expect DMs to just deal with it or be "good enough" to out-trick their tricks, or want to claim "it's not so bad" even when the game falls apart from them... again and again. A secondary related problem is that you must remove entire categories of monsters from your monster manuals that do not have access to this defense. The lack of variety detracts from an interesting game.

2. There are only a small handful of these oversights. Don't feel bad for banning them. However in the case of poorly made ability drain/damage spells you can use the same fix that was used on ray of enfeeblement and touch of idiocy: Change it to an ability score penalty and state that it can't let an ability go below 1. Assay spell resistance, OTOH, is a common ban target. A spell that removes a major spell balancing mechanic is simply "lol no way". Likewise since there are only a few oversights if it becomes a common problem (beyond these 3) then tell your players to play nice instead of hunting them down so much.

[jiriku]

Simple solution: recognize that high-level D&D doesn't really support solo boss fights, at least not in 3.5. There are just too many quick-kill effects to try to run D&D like it's a Final Fantasy video game. Instead, give your boss about 4-6 slightly-less-powerful allies, such that dropping any one enemy on the first round doesn't clinch the fight.

More complex solution: Create a little checklist of various effects that shut down boss fights. Add to it as you learn more about the game. Every time you build a boss fight, consult your little checklist and make sure you've provided your boss with a defense for each one (not necessarily a perfect defense, but something that's reasonably likely to keep him in the fight).

Answer to your question: Several people have provided examples of how to become immune to ability damage. Immunities are nice, but as ericgrau pointed out, it's very difficult to anticipate every avenue of attack and slap a band-aid on each one. There's another method that you can use to supplement immunities.

Both moon bolt and ego whip are targeted effects. As such, they require line of sight. This is true for almost all other instant-kill type effects. Thus, anything that provides total concealment or total cover grants 100% immunity from a vast array of attacks. So, consider greater invisibility, superior invisibility, lurking behind walls and corners, or using the Hide skill (especially in conjunction with Hide in Plain Sight). Offensively, consider effects that disallow line of sight, like blindness, glitterdust, blacklight, or fog spells (and give your bosses blindsight where possible, so they can "see" through their own fog spells).

In practice, I rely on a combination of all three techniques. Bosses carry protections from specific threats, fight with henchmen and bodyguards at their sides, and use offensive and defensive abilities to make it difficult for players to target them at all. The combination creates varied, interesting combats that are very difficult to shut down with one or two quick strikes.

[MukkTB]

You have some options.
1 Arms race the players. What you seem to be doing. It works if you're willing to continue the commitment to keep arms racing ad infinitum.
Quality: OK

2 Sunder the annoying item and counterspell the spell. Have the player pissed that you're shutting him down with meta knowledge.
Quality: Bad

3 Kill the guy for being obnoxious. Lay on the mooks. Tell him that if he's gonna cheese it gets it the hard way.
Quality: Bad

4 Cheese the party mercilessly until he stops. Find the cheese. Use the cheese. Cover them in stinky cheese. Drogonwrought Kobolds. Ability score damage. High DC save or dies. Bite them with wererats and chaos beasts so they have to save all day long. If they complain point out how cheesy they got.
Quality: Funny, more or less an arms race, but more vindictive

5 Houserule away the cheese. BUT this is a big thing. You have to be careful what you house rule away. Don't go nerfing the fighter cause he's a annoying tripper. Teir 5 doesn't need to be nerfed. Keep the nerfbat for teir 1 and 2 mostly, maybe 3 if they get annoying.
Quality: OK

For your own sanity I recommend #5. If you don't want to do that goto #4. Make the encounters harder with cheese that doesn't raise the DC.

[Dorcrae]

Another option is to pull out the older 3e Psionic combat rules and make him play by those. In that case, non psionic characters/monsters aren't affected by the ability damage, your boss would only be stunned at most if i recall.

Slight improvement to the situation without completely houseruling it away, you're just invoking older rules.

[gkathellar]

Another option is to pull out the older 3e Psionic combat rules and make him play by those. In that case, non psionic characters/monsters aren't affected by the ability damage, your boss would only be stunned at most if i recall.

Slight improvement to the situation without completely houseruling it away, you're just invoking older rules.

Those awful, awful rules that were the closest thing you could find to the crappy old 2E rules? Why would you do that to yourself?

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Depending on the ability damage delivery system used (poisons and diseases vs spells et al.), your best bets are countering their high ability damage "nukes" are either creature types that are straight up immune to ability score damage, as other posters have mentioned or use things that are just immune to poisons and disease.



First, there's Magic of Incarnum. A little soulmeld called "Strongheart vest" will help out- it reduces any ability damage taken by 1. Adding more Essentia increases the amount of reduction.


Second, there's Tome of Magic, specifically, the only real part of the book. There's a Vestige called Naberius, I believe, that gives the character with him bound Fast Ability Healing.

While Naberious is always a solution, Tome of Magic is still a damned solid book.

The-Mage-King hit most of the good ones. When it doubt, also just crank the monster's fort saves up through the roof.

[erikun]

4d4 Ego Whip is only doable with a 15th level Psion or higher. At 15th level, everything dies that quickly. Just take a look at the mass of Wizard spells available by then that can render a creature dead or otherwise out of combat by that level. Heck, dealing 10 CHA damage at that level is actually pretty pathetic.

And your Psion would need to be 19th level to maximize a 4d4 Ego Whip, so no auto-16 CHA damage.

You might also want to throw in some immune or highly resistant opponents at your party every once in awhile. Both undead and constructs are immune to ability damage. A Paladin of anything will likely save against Ego Whip, and have a mass of CHA to survive it if hit. You'd want to use such options sparingly, but they are available for you to use occasionally.


However, probably the best advise with a high-level party it just to throw more stuff at them. Perhaps Moon Bolt and Ego Whip can take down a single target in two rounds, but against 20 opponents, that's not very impressive. If you are worried about a single character dominating an encounter with their ability to take out a single target, then do not provide only a single target.

[Tvtyrant]

The other alternative is to make a minion-mancer.
Something along the lines of a DFA Bard/White Raven Tactics Warblade using the feat that lets you continue to advance your music as a warblade. Then give it leadership and some nice minions (like a Malconvoker side kick!) and have the minions doing stupid amounts of damage/shattering the action economy through their leaders buffs.

[BRC]

I personally hate Ability damage, but for the opposite reason. As a DM, I don't like hitting my PC's with big, long-term penalties. At lower levels, a couple points of ability damage/drain(or a few negative levels) can cripple a character. I hate the idea that a single bad role can make a character less fun to play the rest of the adventure (And multiple adventures, if the story dosn't let the players sit for a couple days to recover). People can spend a significant part of their WBL to get a +4 bonus to a stat, which can be lost forever by two failed saves.
Maybe it's just a side-effect of me frequently DMing groups without clerics or druids, I don't know.


Also, it can be a paperwork nightmare, as every time they take ability damage you need to recalculate things like attack bonuses and damage. Maybe I'm just lazy and don't like dealing with the hassle. That's probably it.

[Lateral]

While Naberious is always a solution, Tome of Magic is still a damned solid book.

I think he meant the whole Binding section, not just Naberius. And it is not a solid book; it gave us soulbinding, shadowcasting, and truenaming. One out of three isn't solid, especially if one of them is goddamn TRUENAMING.

Sure, binding is awesome, but it's the only decent part of the book and it's only 1/3 of the book.

[Dragonsoul]

I think he meant the whole Binding section, not just Naberius. And it is not a solid book; it gave us soulbinding, shadowcasting, and truenaming. One out of three isn't solid, especially if one of them is goddamn TRUENAMING.

Sure, binding is awesome, but it's the only decent part of the book and it's only 1/3 of the book.

Hey I liked Shadowcasting, Child of Night is a pretty cool PRC.

anyhoo, Your main problem is that you seem to think that dropping a dood with a load of hitpoints of the party is a Boss fight- Its not, Step up the tactics, Have suprise attacks- The Psion is squishy and one decent charge should fell him, hell even just having a large number of creatures nerfs them, Throw like 50 Skeleton at them, with a boss behind them that has a decent ranged attack, want to stay to hit the Boss? Gonna have to stay in range of those archers (Sure even if they only hit on a twenty but that a crit threat and when your rolling 20 D20's (Which is Loads of fun, your pretty sure go get some ))

[The-Mage-King]

While Naberious is always a solution, Tome of Magic is still a damned solid book.


I meant-

I think he meant the whole Binding section, not just Naberius. And it is not a solid book; it gave us soulbinding, shadowcasting, and truenaming. One out of three isn't solid, especially if one of them is goddamn TRUENAMING.

Sure, binding is awesome, but it's the only decent part of the book and it's only 1/3 of the book.

Yeah. That. The only decent part of ToM is Binding.

[DoctorGlock]

Yeah. That. The only decent part of ToM is Binding.

Shadow Creature Template?

@OP: Have you spoken to the players? A simple "I am not comfortable with this style of play, I am unable plan accordingly and it is causing the game to suffer as a result" might work better than any form of nerf.

In the grand scheme of things, it really isn't that much though. All out damage at mid/high levels will chunky salsa anything on the first round. Save or die will do it before the first round. 2+ rounds of ability damage... well, not so much.

Also, you may have heard the term "action economy" thrown around, and it applies here. Any tactice the party uses again a single boss monster will off it in a maximum of 2 rounds. They get 4 turns to its every one.

D&D is not made for huge mountains of HP vs enough damage to make a fight last 15 rounds. The variables involved would make that take forever. If that's what you are looking for then 3.5 is definitely not the system for you. I can't speak much for 4e having limited experience with it, but from what I did see it does act more like that.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Some people don't find high-op play boring. There are numerous counters to any trick, and there are counters to those counters. (You also can sit down and have some food on a tall table-like structure, or have someone measure how many of something there is.) "Fight cheese with cheese" is only boring if you make it boring.

Ego Whip is a targeted spell. Greater Mirror Image (PHBII) makes it unlikely to succeed. Better yet, Moon Bolt is a ranged touch attack. Friendly Fire (EoE) becomes a better version of spell turning. You don't need to restrict yourself to enemies who are immune to a particular tactic. Just make sure you have some enemies who can deny various swaths of actions. Heck, let them ego whip a dinosaur into nightmare land every once in a while for the fun of it... but the real encounters chew up that sort of nonsense.

[Dragonsoul]

Yeah. That. The only decent part of ToM is Binding.

From a strict Op-Fu point of view yeah, but you got to admit the Fluff of Shadowmancy and Truenaming is awesome. Taking magic from the Gaps in the weave is an awesome concept, not to mention the beautiful idea of Wielding the power of the mighty THESAURUS!

[Blisstake]

"Fight cheese with cheese" is only boring if you make it boring.

For some people it's going to be boring or frustrating no matter what. Especially those who have limited knowledge of the game, including some of the more obscure sourcebooks out there. Finding the counters to everything can also be incredibly time-consuming, which for some people is the fun and for others is what's incredibly frustrating. It also can cause some annoying rules debates as well as having a the majority of combat situations, regardless of who ends up winning, to last only 1 or 2 rounds.

For some people this is fine, and there's nothing wrong with that. But "fight cheese with cheese" isn't the solution for everyone.

[The-Mage-King]

From a strict Op-Fu point of view yeah, but you got to admit the Fluff of Shadowmancy and Truenaming is awesome. Taking magic from the Gaps in the weave is an awesome concept, not to mention the beautiful idea of Wielding the power of the mighty THESAURUS!

Of course.


But for a "halp my players are pwning mai monstars w/ ability damage" thread, the crunch matters more.

[Endarire]

HP is traditionally the way people live and die.

It isn't the only way.

People have numerous defenses to attack: HP, AC (normal/flat/touch/ghost), saves, ability scores, and beloved friends/objects.

Rather than just saying, "No!" consider how you can let your PCs have their trick, but want to use more than that trick. Sure, they can use ego whip to down a creature, but ego whip is a targeted [Mind-Affecting] ability with a Will save where power resistance applies. Targeted effects require line of effect but not line of sight. (If you can't see your target, there's an auto-miss chance.) Go with that.

You also seem new to 3.5 based on your reaction. To reinforce an already-stated notion: Bosses go down just like any other creature. They don't have plot immunity. They don't have an extra-special [Boss] subtype which makes them negate everything you don't like.

In 3.X and Pathfinder, things die. Quickly. A level-appropriate combat lasts 3 rounds at most at virtually all levels!

Why do things die so quickly? Because Gary Gygax made this game based off real world combat rules where people do die in one hit. Often. And based on what I've heard of his group, Gygax was so kill-happy his player characters had to be paranoid to survive.

[Silva Stormrage]

Shadow Creature Template?



Wasn't shadow creature in Complete Mage? Or was that dark? I always mix them up.

On topic, as pointed out there are MULTITUDE of spells and effects that counter those. They are probably less op'ed than force cage to be honest. You really have two options.

#1
Banning ability damage. Personally I don't like this option because it has a tendency of making any option other than HP damage seem overpowered.

#2
Have the creatures respond appropriately. Most bosses should have spell protections on them anyway. Redopsi is painful to deal with especially paired with dispelling buffer, though mindblank is hard enough to get around and he should have it up 24/7 (Scrying protection ftw). Spell turning works on both if you are using transparency. I believe there is also a spell that turns them undead for a time (immunity to ability damage). You could homebrew a ring of mettle at the same price as a ring of evasion if you want them to make their saves. Finally make sure he has dispelling protection such as ring of enduring arcana and caster level buffs to withstand dispells.

[Lateral]

Dark is in Tome of Magic, yes. (Shadow is in... Lords of Madness, I believe.)

It's also the only decent thing to come out of the Shadowcaster section of the book.

[Devronq]

Shadow Creature Template?

@OP: Have you spoken to the players? A simple "I am not comfortable with this style of play, I am unable plan accordingly and it is causing the game to suffer as a result" might work better than any form of nerf.

In the grand scheme of things, it really isn't that much though. All out damage at mid/high levels will chunky salsa anything on the first round. Save or die will do it before the first round. 2+ rounds of ability damage... well, not so much.

Also, you may have heard the term "action economy" thrown around, and it applies here. Any tactice the party uses again a single boss monster will off it in a maximum of 2 rounds. They get 4 turns to its every one.

D&D is not made for huge mountains of HP vs enough damage to make a fight last 15 rounds. The variables involved would make that take forever. If that's what you are looking for then 3.5 is definitely not the system for you. I can't speak much for 4e having limited experience with it, but from what I did see it does act more like that.

In reference to if i have spoken to the players, i should mention we went from zero optimization to very high optimization in the last year and we've been playing for more than 10 with the same group. 4 of the players are like if we go down it the slightest we will stop playing and 2 of the players say the game has lost all of its fun because there completely lost with this level of optimization and barely wanna play anymore. I absolutely despise "extra action ability's" i put a strict limit to 2 full round actions per turn or one spell that increases your actions meaning you cant use time stop or celerity or belt of battle in the same turn and i banned all devotion feats and all combos because there in very bad taste and that's about all there ok with.

Any btw the psion is doing a max, empower ego whip at lv.11 i wont go into detail as to how but its legit and he can do like 16cha damage with it. The cleric did 25str damage one turn with a twin quick moonbolt then a twin moon bolt (DMM) but that was all his turning attempts from a full rest.

[Devronq]

HP is traditionally the way people live and die.

It isn't the only way.

People have numerous defenses to attack: HP, AC (normal/flat/touch/ghost), saves, ability scores, and beloved friends/objects.

Rather than just saying, "No!" consider how you can let your PCs have their trick, but want to use more than that trick. Sure, they can use ego whip to down a creature, but ego whip is a targeted [Mind-Affecting] ability with a Will save where power resistance applies. Targeted effects require line of effect but not line of sight. (If you can't see your target, there's an auto-miss chance.) Go with that.

You also seem new to 3.5 based on your reaction. To reinforce an already-stated notion: Bosses go down just like any other creature. They don't have plot immunity. They don't have an extra-special [Boss] subtype which makes them negate everything you don't like.

In 3.X and Pathfinder, things die. Quickly. A level-appropriate combat lasts 3 rounds at most at virtually all levels!

Why do things die so quickly? Because Gary Gygax made this game based off real world combat rules where people do die in one hit. Often. And based on what I've heard of his group, Gygax was so kill-happy his player characters had to be paranoid to survive.

Been playing since the day 3.0 came out so like 15-16 years or something? just saying we've never had balance issues since one of my players found this site just saying and that was a year ago and we've that many other years of fine play until now

[Dsurion]

I personally hate Ability damage, but for the opposite reason. As a DM, I don't like hitting my PC's with big, long-term penalties. At lower levels, a couple points of ability damage/drain(or a few negative levels) can cripple a character. I hate the idea that a single bad role can make a character less fun to play the rest of the adventure (And multiple adventures, if the story dosn't let the players sit for a couple days to recover). People can spend a significant part of their WBL to get a +4 bonus to a stat, which can be lost forever by two failed saves.
Maybe it's just a side-effect of me frequently DMing groups without clerics or druids, I don't know.

Also, it can be a paperwork nightmare, as every time they take ability damage you need to recalculate things like attack bonuses and damage. Maybe I'm just lazy and don't like dealing with the hassle. That's probably it.I'm with you there :smallsigh:


Simple solution: recognize that high-level D&D doesn't really support solo boss fights, at least not in 3.5. There are just too many quick-kill effects to try to run D&D like it's a Final Fantasy video game. Instead, give your boss about 4-6 slightly-less-powerful allies, such that dropping any one enemy on the first round doesn't clinch the fight.Alternatively, treat it exactly like Final Fantasy with a "boss" template that grants tons of immunities...


From a strict Op-Fu point of view yeah, but you got to admit the Fluff of Shadowmancy and Truenaming is awesome. Taking magic from the Gaps in the weave is an awesome concept, not to mention the beautiful idea of Wielding the power of the mighty THESAURUS!I've always liked both of them for the flavor as well. I mostly liked the Truenamer for the concept of skills-based magic, though.

[Terazul]

I'm with you there :smallsigh:

Alternatively, treat it exactly like Final Fantasy with a "boss" template that grants tons of immunities...


Ehhh. I would advise against that. Every time I've seen this approach it's been met with disdain by whatever group I'm in. "Ugh, there's only one guy, guess he's immune to all my cool stuff.", cue the blasting. You want them to consider their options, not be shoehorned into one. There's a difference between a resilient or tricky boss (mirror images! terrain effects!), than a wall of HP (since nothing else works on it).

[Tyndmyr]

Ehhh. I would advise against that. Every time I've seen this approach it's been met with disdain by whatever group I'm in. "Ugh, there's only one guy, guess he's immune to all my cool stuff.", cue the blasting. You want them to consider their options, not be shoehorned into one. There's a difference between a resilient or tricky boss (mirror images! terrain effects!), than a wall of HP (since nothing else works on it).

Yeah, this exactly. There's nothing wrong with ability damage as a form of attack...it just isn't interesting when it's the ONLY form of attack.

And feel free to splash some around on them.

Make sure to mix in a wide variety of creature types. The occasional undead or construct is fun times, and provides diversity in other ways as well. Note that not every one of these is automatically identifiable as one immediately.

In short...you want to eventually encourage your optimizers to try to get LOTS of valid attacks instead of relying entirely on one uber one. That's lazy optimization.

[Little Brother]

In short...you want to eventually encourage your optimizers to try to get LOTS of valid attacks instead of relying entirely on one uber one. That's lazy optimization.It's not optimizing if you can get spanked by a lich of your level because your tactics only work against things that aren't immune to a very common immunity. It's like focusing on lots of attacks under 20 damage, or bajillions of fire spells. You need to design stuff with knowledge of the vulnerabilities and weaknesses of strong stuff.

[Dsurion]

Ehhh. I would advise against that. Every time I've seen this approach it's been met with disdain by whatever group I'm in. "Ugh, there's only one guy, guess he's immune to all my cool stuff.", cue the blasting. You want them to consider their options, not be shoehorned into one. There's a difference between a resilient or tricky boss (mirror images! terrain effects!), than a wall of HP (since nothing else works on it).Hey, I never said it was a particularly good idea :smalltongue:

[Elboxo]

I think the idea of multiple enemies is a good idea. Better yet multiple immune enemies :D That'll get them running, or perhaps a small group of vulnerable enemies, and then one large enemy who's immune, what's the rest of the party?

[tyckspoon]

Any btw the psion is doing a max, empower ego whip at lv.11 i wont go into detail as to how but its legit and he can do like 16cha damage with it.

..Would you mind going into detail? Because I can't figure out how you would do that, which means either your player has figured out a trick that I would like to know about, he's misusing some rules, or you're exaggerating the amount of actual damage he's doing.

Here's what I know he can do, baseline:
He can't spend more than his Manifester Level of points on the power. Maximize requires 4, and Empower takes 2. That means he has at most 5 points remaining to spend on manifesting Ego Whip itself. That gives him.. 1d4, because he doesn't even have enough ML left to pay for 1 augment. Maximized is 4 damage, Empowered is half of 1d4 extra.. so 1, 2, or possibly none if he rolls a 1 (fractions round down.)

He also requires 2 Psychic Focuses to use. That means he has to have a Psicrystal and Psicrystal Containment to hold the second one. Soo..
4 feats, enough PP to manifest the equivalent of a 6th level power, and 2 Psychic Focuses spent to do 4-6 Cha damage.. so.. he's a good 8 or so points worth of cost reduction/ML improvement shy of doing that much ability damage.

[ericgrau]

Best I could do was quickened empowered ego whip = 1d4x1.5, maximized augmented = 8, total = ~11-12. You still take out anything that dumped cha, and in 3 rounds most other BBEGs (maybe 2 rounds, but he'll save against most)... by only 1 of the 4 PCs who's supposed to be weaker than the BBEG. One PC. Heaven forbid the party have 2 psions and take out the main villain that the campaign's been leading up to in round 1, perhaps even if he saves for half against most of the whips. What does the DM do now, make BBEGs that one shot the PCs to keep it fair? All BBEGs must now be undead only?

Entire groups of monsters such as animals and to a lesser extent dire animals, dinosaurs, magical beasts, etc. are taken out sooner. So shoot, the DM can't throw those at the PCs anymore.

[Tvtyrant]

Assuming Overchannel and a psi-crystal empowering and maximizing shouldn't be hard. So 9 points so far (2 emp, 4 max, 3 the power itself) out of 13 available with overchannel. Add in 4 for an extra dice and you get... around 10 points of charisma damage. That is well short of 16, but not bad.

[ericgrau]

I hit 11-12 without overchannel, so it should be possible to go higher with it. Augment twice + empower is already 11 without a quicken. Quicken augmented for another 5 and bam that's 16.

[Tvtyrant]

I hit 11-12 without overchannel, so it should be possible to go higher with it. Augment twice + empower is already 11 without a quicken. Quicken augmented for another 5 and bam 16.

Unless I am off my rocker that is 13 PP for the augment twice and empower.

Casting: 3
Augment: 4 each
Empower: 2
So 3+2+8=13

[tyckspoon]

Still using 3 psychic focuses in one round there, and the most I would expect to have on hand is 2 (and since you're Quickening, you can't use the normal workaround of using your Swift to Hustle and refocus with that extra move action.) Empower isn't very useful for an unaugmented Ego Whip anyway; save the PP/focus and use it to get your Maximized Whip in (still a level shy of actually being able to manifest the necessary 12 PP, but I won't quibble with that too much- 1 ML boost/1 point of PP cost reduction is not hard to come by.)

For the BBEG- Protection from Mind-Affecting. Immunity or resistance to ability damage. A Contingent Restoration set to trigger on suffering something it can fix. Mettle + a good Will save (especially handy because devoting your PP to metapowering the ability requires letting the save DC suffer). There are quite a few ways to deal with Ego Whip that a mid to high level BBEG can reasonably have access to.

For the other monster types: You're talking about a party that contains at least 1 (and in the OP's case, 2) full casters. Big dumb melee brutes just aren't a concern past level 5ish; you can destroy, dominate, or bypass them easily. How you do it is basically a stylistic matter at that point.

[Tenno Seremel]

There is also Psychic Bastion feat (Hyperconscious) that gives you ability depletion resistance 3 while focused.

[ericgrau]

Maybe I'm not familiar enough with psionics but I don't see the requirement in overchannel (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#overchannel) to blow your psionic focus. This is where the ML 13 from above came from.

I thought I'd pull up a dire tiger and found that it has cha 10 but a will save that is 3 points above average. There is a "little" (ok, ok ridiculously huge) difference between save for half cha damage and save with a +4 bonus or be more friendly to the party as long as the party doesn't attack his allies. Or save and have a 50% chance of being out of the fight, a 30% chance of hurting someone who may or may not be a foe and a 20% chance of still being trouble anyway. Low to mid level enchantments aren't usually the best option.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

The Dire Tiger has 11 touch AC and 2 INT. Ray of Stupidity is a 2nd level spell from the enchantment school (aka: a low level enchantment) with minimum 2 INT damage, no save. Also, split ray is fun.

[Human Paragon 3]

Ray of Stupidity is a penalty, not damage, and so can't bring a score below 1.

[Tenno Seremel]

(somewhat related?) At level 13 Soulknife becomes the animal killer, all day every day :}

[dextercorvia]

Ray of Stupidity is a penalty, not damage, and so can't bring a score below 1.

And won't stack with itself.

Regarding the how -- can we bring Dominant Ideal Ardent into the discussion? I know he mentioned Psion, but why not right...

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

A subject struck by the ray takes 1d4+1 points of Intelligence damage.Is there errata of which I am unaware?

[dextercorvia]

I'm not sure what I was thinking of -- if it was a penalty, it wouldn't stack, but that is pretty clear.

[herrhauptmann]

Maybe you could give the boss miss chances?
Great, you moonbolt him into a coma, so long as you don't hit his mirror images.
You ego whip him into a coma, but he's actually on the ethereal plane right now, so you miss.

[Devronq]

..Would you mind going into detail? Because I can't figure out how you would do that, which means either your player has figured out a trick that I would like to know about, he's misusing some rules, or you're exaggerating the amount of actual damage he's doing.

Here's what I know he can do, baseline:
He can't spend more than his Manifester Level of points on the power. Maximize requires 4, and Empower takes 2. That means he has at most 5 points remaining to spend on manifesting Ego Whip itself. That gives him.. 1d4, because he doesn't even have enough ML left to pay for 1 augment. Maximized is 4 damage, Empowered is half of 1d4 extra.. so 1, 2, or possibly none if he rolls a 1 (fractions round down.)

He also requires 2 Psychic Focuses to use. That means he has to have a Psicrystal and Psicrystal Containment to hold the second one. Soo..
4 feats, enough PP to manifest the equivalent of a 6th level power, and 2 Psychic Focuses spent to do 4-6 Cha damage.. so.. he's a good 8 or so points worth of cost reduction/ML improvement shy of doing that much ability damage.

Well he could just not use max and empower and do 12 cha (3d4) potentially if he rolled max, as well as there's lots of feats that reduce the pp cost so max and empower are both cast for free to he could do 18 actually, so actually i did miss quote i think he just cast it without those empower and max and did 11 with lucky rolls. I didn't put the same limit on meta magic (cant reduce a cost to less than +1) as i did meta powers because im only allowing him to have 2 focuses on at once and im not stupid enough to allow my pcs anything that allows too many extra actions so ya do you want me to look up the feats for you? or does that make sense now?

[tyckspoon]

so ya do you want me to look up the feats for you? or does that make sense now?

I'd appreciate it, if you don't mind, because I don't actually remember any feats that can reduce metapower costs (there are a number for metamagics, but feats are not covered by standard transparency, so they don't apply to metapower costs by standard RAW.) There's Earth Power, but it requires maintaining Focus so it's incompatible with metapower usage and it's only good for a 1 point reduction anyway.. closest thing to significant metapower cost reduction I can recall is the Dominant Ideal ACF for Ardents, and that's, well, an Ardent ACF.

[Venger]

Body Ward, Sheltered Vitality, maybe Death Ward... there are some other relevant buffing spells that incidentally protect from ability damage, don't they?

don't forget about veil of undeath, that also renders one immune to ability damage for a little while (rd/lvl) (if you especially hate your players, the NPC can be a DMM persister)

as far as this ego whip business, I'd be quite interested to know how your psion is cranking his damage that high as well (out of academic curiosity for TO more than to steal, t2s are shooting fish in a barrel to someone who's familiar with the ins and outs of the game)

as with all problems in the game, talking to your players about how you feel is a great plan A. after all, this is a game you play to have fun with your friends, and if everyone's not doing that, then something's amiss.

that said, as far as mechanics go, ego whip isn't exactly the end-all be-all (although it is damn hard to deal with for most characters) and moon bolt is easier to counter.

as with many things in this game, ability damage is seldom used for its intended purpose (damaging abilities) you don't sap a creature's strength to lower his strength (where'd you get a crazy idea like that?) but for the nice secondary effect of rendering him helpless, likewise for charisma. charisma is rather infamous for not doing anything unless you cast off it, making it the favoured dump stat for anyone who doesn't cast off it. since you said "monsters" I assume you're using stuff from the MMs instead of NPCs with character levels, which goes through the same problem but worse as as mentioned earlier, most monsters have crappy cha.

str's less of a problem as far as moon bolt's concerned. since moon bolt caps at cleric lvl 15 and your guys are lvl 11, he's dealing 3d6 str (base) even with his metamagic use (twinning, etc) the amount of str damage he can deal is finite, and being a cleric, he only prepares a finite number of metamagiced to hell moonbolts/day, especially since it's a 4th lvl spell, so even with a lot of DMM for his pool, he can't do it forever. if you can get a creature (maybe give him class levels!) with a high enough strength to withstand the initial hit (and be left at some positive strength score) then he's survived since the str is still there albeit diminished.

this is assuming that the monster can do other things than just smash with its fists/tusks/whatever. at lvl 11, most monsters can, whether it's acid breath or blood locusts from its herpes sores or death stare or what have you, a monster should never just have "hit it with lots of strength" as its only option. your players don't play stereotypical fighters, so to challenge them, you shouldn't play your monsters that way.

a suggestion is giving your monsters (since you seem to like them big and meaty) such as a troll or ogre or what have you, a bunch of levels in war hulk to up its ECR, since your players, a T1 and a T2 must operate well above their suggested CR. every lvl of war hulk raises the character's str by 2. 10 lvls =20 str. give that to a skullcrusher ogre (+14 str) and you're operating with 34 str out of the box before you even think about his root ability score (which oughta be high) or items (which you can use so your players can sell them or wear them depending on whether your cleric has a soft spot for melee. if they're not at str 0 (and have options) moon bolt has been neutralised. I somehow doubt your cleric uses all of his slots on metamagiced versions of it.

since ego whip is capped at some finite point (even with your psion going nova and dealing I think the highest number mentioned was 16 cha when he blows all his points and expends his focus thrice over somehow) I think that what you're saying (correct me if I'm wrong) is that your guy will ego whip once and the rest is more or less cleanup. if an enemy can survive the initial cha hit, then they're still conscious, and as a result, really don't care about the hit to cha (since in-combat it doesn't do anything barring casting, wintimidators aside)

so the trick is to use enemies with ungodly charisma

the key word here is "ungodly"

fiends (demons/devils) usually have really high cha (especially for monsters) since they're so charming. even a lowly succubus has a cha of 26, which is more damage than a nova blast of ego whip can deal.

while levels in war chief (also from the minis handbook) can boost cha, as can items, obviously, (that sorta goes without saying) you must once more remember the name of the game is options. if a succubus (just an example, I know you wouldn't send a pair of lvl 11s against any number of those in a fightan encounter, they suck in combat, energy drain notwithstanding, but I figure your cleric's smart enough to have a pair of death wards handy)

if all your succubus can do is not get ego whipped to death (make your own joke) then she's not providing much of a challenge. could levels of fiend of corruption/possession add challenge to the encounter? if bodyjacked, how well does the cleric hold up to having his ego supermegatwinempowerwhipped? how does the squishy psion feel about getting moon bolted for more strength than he has?

[Cwymbran-San]

I am not sure if anyone has already mentioned it: i regularly use the terrain to drive my players nuts, even spells and psionics usually need LoS, do they not?
Drive them through a tunnel just wide enough to allow one man at a time, then attack their rear (or even better, attack from above), have your monster withdraw when it is damaged, with a healing/restoring guy around the corner, just out of the good guys sight. Fill the gap with rank-and-file troops (probably with Improved Bullrush to push the good guys back) until the boss is healed to full, then let him charge in again. Repeat until you get bored or lose enough to croak in 1-2 rounds.
Boss monsters are named as such because they have underlings to do their bidding...and to die for them of course :smallamused:

[dextercorvia]

I'd appreciate it, if you don't mind, because I don't actually remember any feats that can reduce metapower costs (there are a number for metamagics, but feats are not covered by standard transparency, so they don't apply to metapower costs by standard RAW.) There's Earth Power, but it requires maintaining Focus so it's incompatible with metapower usage and it's only good for a 1 point reduction anyway.. closest thing to significant metapower cost reduction I can recall is the Dominant Ideal ACF for Ardents, and that's, well, an Ardent ACF.

Metapower from CPSi does -- a little. Earth Power, etc work to reduce the overall cost, but not per metapsi feat. He mentioned this is a Psion, but if it were a Dominant Ideal Ardent, he could really rock this.

I still think there is some bad math/logic or exaggeration -- either that, or this is the only thing the build is good at.

[tyckspoon]

Metapower from CPSi does -- a little. Earth Power, etc work to reduce the overall cost, but not per metapsi feat. He mentioned this is a Psion, but if it were a Dominant Ideal Ardent, he could really rock this.


:smallsigh: I *looked* for Metapower. Not sure how I overlooked it; when I missed it, I decided I was misremembering Dominant Ideal instead. A full augment Metapower Empowered Ego Whip would indeed be capable of 16 (18 with a perfect roll) damage, and slipping in an Overchannel and maybe a Torc of Power Preservation would get you the headroom needed to Maximize it as well. That is indeed getting into 'this is the only thing I do', tho, since Metapower only works for one power and one metapower per selection, and I'm not entirely sure there's enough feats to go 'round for all of that as is (3 from level, 3 bonus psionic for Psion levels, 1 for being human.. if you ignore Maximize and the psicrystal feats and just suck up using your Focuses inefficiently.. eh, it's doable.)

[Endarire]

I have been playing 3.0 since the books were hot off the presses at Gen Con 2000.

I've been studying the rules far more.

That aside, I also tend to study the rules for fun. The notion of "Killing it without assaulting its HP!" is nothing new to me, if rarely used in games I've played.

[Rubik]

To my knowledge, there's nothing anywhere in the psionics rules saying that you can't apply a metapsionic feat multiple times (though some effects, such as Quicken or Maximize, are useless for this).

The best I can think of to get at level 11 is 6.75d4 Cha damage (avg 16.875), by max-augmenting it, having Metapower (Empower + Ego Whip), and blowing two focuses. That's 4 feats (Psicrystal Affinity, Psicrystal Containment, Empower Power, and Metapower) for something that's somewhat easily blocked by many monsters and spells, and it's not even guaranteed to knock anything out that makes its save (though there's a good chance that he very well might, if everything goes well).

[edit] Wait, does he have Midnight Augmentation? Overchanneling for +2 and using MA means he could get an extra 1d4 damage to Empower... Which adds an extra 2.5 damage on average to Empower (Twice!) for an extra 5.625 and a total average of 22.5 damage. I think.