Help with melee rogue shade.

[Eld83]

My apologies in advance for this wall of text.

I'm building a shade character for a campaign, which will be primarily hack and slash. Oddly enough I'm using the 3.0 shade template from Forgotten Realms (DM approved as it was used previously) even though the game is 3.5.

The total level is 13, so with the +2LA for the shade template I get 11 levels to work with.

The party will consist of an incantatrix, and another person which will be either a spellcaster with a huge number of direct damage spells or a fighter/mage combo. Meaning it will rest upon myself to be the skillmonkey/scout AND the occasional melee fighter.

With this in mind I was thinking of a rogue10/fighter1 build two weapon fighting build, which would give me a good SA and improved evasion.

Important to note that I will have access to a magic item which essentially gives me darkness at will, and with the 3.0 shade template that means I can shadow stride (dimension door) as a move action all day long.

Character will ultimately be chaotic good or neutral good, due to alignment shift (deck of many things or similar effect). Human fits best with the background story (which I will have to write).

My objectives are 1:survival, and 2:damage output, 3:melee survivability.

Stats:
- Str 15
- Dex 20 (18 +2 for 4th/8th level)
- Con 16 (18 in darkness)
- Int 16
- Wis 14
- Cha 14 (16 in darkness)

My thoughts so far on feats: Weapon Finesse, Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Two Weapon Fighting, Darkstalker (use hide to foil blindsight), 2 left to choose.

Magic Equipment (standard 110k budget):
- Vest or cloak of resistance, probably +3
- Amulet of natural armor
- Deathstrike bracers (MIC), allows me to SA ooze/undead/construct etc 3/day
- Gloves of Dexterity, +4
- Rogue's Vest
- Gwaeron's Boots (pass without trace, no smell)
- Undecided on armor, possibly shadowsilk leather armor from tome of magic.
- Unknown weapons still, +2 with crystals of energy assault?
- Wand of Wraithstrike
- Blindfold of True Darkness for those pesky invisible enemies

All in all, this initial build should give me excellent scouting capabilities (except in broad daylight in the open), good survivability with +7 to all saves, improved evasion, and SR 21. Damage output should be good, but I'm concerned about AC and relatively low Hit points.
As it is now I'm looking at about AC 25 (+7 dex, +4 deflection from shade, +4 from +2 shadowsilk leather armor) and 87 hit point (98 in shadow).

Any suggestions or tips would be greatly appreciated, whether they be broad or focused to a single item, as I'm not particularly versed in all things rogue, and haven't played much 3.5.

[Flickerdart]

Get a wand of Acid Splash so you can SA as a ranged touch attack. While you're at that, get wands of Golemstrike and friends, in case you need to make more than three attacks per day against an immune opponent.

[Darth_Versity]

Improved evasion is nice but probably not worth getting all 10th rogue lvls when you can just get a really high Reflex with evasion.

What books are available?

[Eld83]

Almost everything is available, though I've noticed a strong dislike of Eberron flavored cheese in the group.
Not from Eberron, but whisper gnome is a bit too cheesy as well.

[Eld83]

Get a wand of Acid Splash so you can SA as a ranged touch attack. While you're at that, get wands of Golemstrike and friends, in case you need to make more than three attacks per day against an immune opponent.

Sneak attacks work with wands? Uhh... how exactly does that work?

EDIT: Ignore this, I found it. Complete Arcane page 86.

[Darth_Versity]

Sneak attacks work with wands? Uhh... how exactly does that work?

Sneak attack works on attack rolls within 30 feet. That includes ranged touch attacks from spells

EDIT: since your doing the scouting and rogueish stuff do you think a melee Swift Hunter build would be better. It'd get better skill points overall (after those fighter levels) offers a way to be good in both melee and ranged and offers a way to do extra damage against immune targets and doesn't need a flanking partner.

[Geigan]

Have either you or your DM heard of LA buyoff (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm)? The lost HD from templates can hurt a lot more than the abilities help unless you can negate the LA. Of course if your DM doesn't use normal XP, or caculating XP for people who aren't exactly same level gives him a headache, then this option might not be for you.

If your build isn't set in stone and your group allows Tome of Battle, you could try a 2 level dip of swordsage at the end of your build. Shadow Hand really fits a shade flavorwise, and you could pick up assassin's stance and the shadow blade feat to pick up on the sneak attack you would've missed from two levels of rogue as well as Dex to damage. Not to mention all the other cool stuff you can get from maneuvers.

[Eld83]

To Darth Versity:
I'll take a look at it, but the party most definitely WILL need a rogue, as in our group all DMs have a fondness for traps, hidden monsters etc.

To Geigan:
Our groups don't really follow the expected standard for XP. It's something more along the lines of: we survived 2/3 sessions of dungeoning/fighting = everyone go up a level. But I appreciate the thought!
As for the swordsage, I just took a quick look at it and it's looking amazing! Fits with flavor as you mentioned, plus a boost to a weak will save, and extra AC never hurts either! On the other hand I'd lose a point of BAB progression as rogue9/swordsage2 compared to rogue10/fighter1, and from what I can see assassin's stance is for 3rd level, and if I drop another level of rogue I might as well go for 4 levels of swordsage for the wisdom bonus to damage and the extra stance, which would cost me improved uncanny dodge from rogue8.. gah!! tough choices!
Seriously though, it looks amazing, definitely taking some swordsage, looks like I might go for 3 levels.
Quick question though, does Obscuring shadow veil strike stack with sneak attack? Seems pretty crazy if it does.

[Darth_Versity]

To Darth Versity:
I'll take a look at it, but the party most definitely WILL need a rogue, as in our group all DMs have a fondness for traps, hidden monsters etc.

Thats the beauty of the scout part of a Swift Hunter. It provides Trapfinding, Evasion, 8 skill points a lvl and all the good skills like a rogue. The Ranger side also provides 6 skill points a lvl and another decent set of skills.

[pffh]

To Darth Versity:
I'll take a look at it, but the party most definitely WILL need a rogue, as in our group all DMs have a fondness for traps, hidden monsters etc.

To Geigan:
Our groups don't really follow the expected standard for XP. It's something more along the lines of: we survived 2/3 sessions of dungeoning/fighting = everyone go up a level. But I appreciate the thought!
As for the swordsage, I just took a quick look at it and it's looking amazing! Fits with flavor as you mentioned, plus a boost to a weak will save, and extra AC never hurts either! On the other hand I'd lose a point of BAB progression as rogue9/swordsage2 compared to rogue10/fighter1, and from what I can see assassin's stance is for 3rd level, and if I drop another level of rogue I might as well go for 4 levels of swordsage for the wisdom bonus to damage and the extra stance, which would cost me improved uncanny dodge from rogue8.. gah!! tough choices!
Seriously though, it looks amazing, definitely taking some swordsage, looks like I might go for 3 levels.
Quick question though, does Obscuring shadow veil strike stack with sneak attack? Seems pretty crazy if it does.

Remember your initiator level is (Non initiator class levels)/2 + initiator class level so a Rogue 9/Swordsage 2 would have an initiator level of 6.

[Eld83]

Remember your initiator level is (Non initiator class levels)/2 + initiator class level so a Rogue 9/Swordsage 2 would have an initiator level of 6.

I'm sorry, what? I have no idea what initiator levels are..

EDIT: from quick google it seems to be something specific to the tome of battle, I haven't read that yet, will work on that tomorrow.

P.S. Bedtime, I'll check back later!

[pffh]

I'm sorry, what? I have no idea what initiator levels are..

EDIT: from quick google it seems to be something specific to the tome of battle, I haven't read that yet, will work on that tomorrow.

P.S. Bedtime, I'll check back later!

Your initiator level governs what level stances and maneuvers you can take.

[gorfnab]

Telfammar Shadowlord (Unapproachable East) is just awesome with a source of move action Dim Door or Shadow Jump like ability(shade). Also the Craven feat (Champions of Ruin) will up your sneak attack damage considerably. If flaws are available I may have a build idea for you (see spoiler).

Human Shade
1. Rogue - Craven, Two Weapon Fighting, Darkstalker, Dodge (2x Flaws)
2. Swashbuckler
3. Rogue - Mobility
4. Rogue - Penetrating Strike ACF (Dungeonscape)
5. Swashbuckler
6. Swashbuckler - Spring Attack
7. Fighter - Hit and Run Tactics ACF (Drow of the Underdark) - Improved Two Weapon Fighting
8. Fighter - Blindfight
9. Swordsage - Unarmed Strike ACF (Tome of Battle) - Shadowblade
10. Swordsage
11. Telflammar Shadowlord
12. Telflammar Shadowlord - Gloomrazor, Combat Reflexes, or Snap Kick
13. Telflammar Shadowlord
14. Telflammar Shadowlord
15. Telflammar Shadowlord - Greater Two Weapon Fighting
16. Telflammar Shadowlord
17. Swashbuckler
18. Swashbuckler - Daring Outlaw
19. Swashbuckler
20. Swashbuckler

[Curious]

Obligatory Factotum plug.

[Eld83]

Ok I read up on I initiator levels and the swordsage seems great. And while I appreciate the build Gorfnab, a build such as that in my group falls into the munchkin category and would get me killed off quickly :-P

I think rogue8/swordsage3 or 9/2 will be the final choice, and I appreciate everyone's input on the matter.

Any suggestions on magic item investments? Wands with ray attacks are an amazing tip, but further suggestions would be swell!

[gorfnab]

And while I appreciate the build Gorfnab, a build such as that in my group falls into the munchkin category and would get me killed off quickly :-P

You have an Incantatrix in your party yet this would be viewed as munchkin?

[Eld83]

You have an Incantatrix in your party yet this would be viewed as munchkin?

The person using the incantatrix has no idea what he's doing or how to best use his munchkiny powers :-P