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View Full Version : Weapon Build System Revision 3.75 or Pathfinder



Zed's Dead
2011-12-06, 10:59 AM
Please review this revision of the 3.5 weapon system.

Note that the first 7 responses were made while this thread was under construction, so they were essentially reacting to an empty post.

Rationale

The point-based Weapon Build System equalizes weapon values and fosters choice and personal style. In D&D 3.5, weapons are available through a long list of static standardized statistics, but some weapons are stronger than others. Very few characters were willing to use a “simple” weapon like a quarterstaff past low levels because its inherent qualities were static and mundane. Unless it was enchanted for extra damage or attack bonuses, the quarterstaff was always inferior to a heavy flail. With this system, one could imagine a martial artist using the same masterwork quarterstaff his entire career, because it is equal in its own way to a greataxe, kukri, or guisarme. The concept of weapon excellence, uniqueness, and versatility is the essence of the Weapon Build System.

Here, players “build” weapons specifically for their characters upon character creation. Any martial weapon is built with the same number of weapon build points as any other. This way, players can spend points to create the style of weapon they want without having to sacrifice power or versatility. Interested in building a slashing shortsword — a roman gladius? What about mechanically effective shuriken? Need to stat out a special racial weapon not covered in the SRD? No problem. Do you envision your quarterstaff having the tripping and disarming special weapon qualities or perhaps iron tips to extend the critical multiplier? Spend the points accordingly. Any weapon concept from 3.5 and beyond can be built using this system.

The logic behind the system is simple. Not all knives are alike. The bowie knife is really nothing like a poniard, which is also very different from a courtly dueling dagger, throwing knife, kukri, etc. Any of these could be deadly in the right hands, but their qualities and craftsmanship allow them to be used in very different ways by experienced characters. These differences can now be supported with crunch.

It is important to note that the weapons you build for your characters are unique, and the qualities reside in the weapons themselves. If a guisarme has the tripping special weapon quality, for example, any proficient character could attempt to trip his opponent with it. If a bow has a 120 ft. range, any proficient character using the weapon may take advantage of its quality. As far as the character’s effectiveness with the weapon is concerned, the only question one need ask is whether he is proficient with the weapon. If so, the weapon may be used to its full advantage as a martial weapon. If not, he treats it as a simple weapon because he doesn’t know how to use it to its greatest effect.

[Designer’s Note:
Please make sure that the weapons you build make sense with both the laws of physics and the spirit of the game itself. Following the letter of the law (but ignoring common sense and my guidance), one could build a sundering rapier, a thrown whip or an entangling mace. The Special Weapon Qualities descriptions include a reference to types of weapons suitable for each quality. Use your best judgment to make weapons which are interesting, inventive, and straight-up BA, but not ridiculous. Players are also strongly encouraged to find or create a visual representation of their weapon(s) in order to enhance the imaginative aspect of gameplay.]

Sample Weapons

Here are some examples of classic SRD weapons based on the dagger and some of the variations possible with the Weapon Build System. Any of the attributes listed below could be traded out with little problem, as long as the total number of points spent equals the number of points offered for the specific weapon type.

[Designer's Note: Please experiment and let me know what you come up with.]

Variations on the Dagger

table knife (Improvised Weapon)
1d4 (1 pt.), pierching (0 pts.), 20x2 (0 pts.)

Thug's Blade (Simple Weapon [used without light slashing or piercing proficiency])
1d4 (1 pt.), piercing/slashing (1 pt.) finessable (1 pt.) 20x2 (0 pts.)

Classic SRD dagger (martial weapon)
1d4 (1 pt.), piercing/slashing (1 pts.), 19-20x2 (2 pts.), finessable (1 pt.), 10-foot range (1 pt.)

Poniard (martial weapon)
1d4 (1 pt.), piercing (0 pts.) 19-20x3 (4 pts.), finessable (1 pt.)

Kukri (martial weapon)
1d4 (1 pt.), slashing (0 pts.) 18-20x2 (4 pts.), finessable (1 pt.)

Throwing knife (martial weapon)
1d4 (1 pt.), 20x3 (2 pts.), 30 ft. range (3 pts.)

Assassin's Knife (martial weapon)
1d4 (1 pt.), slashing (0 pts.), 20x4 (4 pts.), finessable (1 pt.)

Dueling Knife (Masterwork weapon)
1d4 (1 pt.), slashing (0 pts.), 18-20x3 (6 pts.)



Weapon Types

Ranged Weapons

Ranged weapons fall into two categories: thrown and projectile. A combatant adds his dexterity bonus to all ranged attacks made with ranged weapons. Each ranged weapon type has a default range as well as range increments that can be bought with build points, according to table ***. As in D&D 3.5, a cumulative -2 penalty is incurred for every range increment past the first. As with melee weapons, there is no attack penalty for non-proficiency with a ranged weapon. Instead, non-proficient combatants wield these weapons as though they were simple (3-point) weapons, which are substantially less accurate at range, less damaging, and possess fewer (if any) special weapon qualities.

Most thrown weapons can be used at melee range normally. It is easy to imagine a character chopping with a throwing axe or stabbing with a throwing dagger. Even shuriken can be used to strike at an opponent’s vulnerable spots. The trade-off for a thrown weapon’s effectiveness at melee range is built into the weapon. The points spent on range increments are effectively “lost” when a character chooses to use the weapon in melee.

Some projectile weapons have a special quality that allows them to be used effectively as melee weapons. In this situation, apply the character’s appropriate melee combat bonuses to attacks and damage with the weapon.

All projectile weapons have a reload time—usually a free action. Though crossbows take longer to load, their wielders may release a draw force that exceeds that of a bow. Light crossbows (1d8 base damage or less) take a standard action to load. Heavy crossbows (1d10 damage or less) are loaded with a full-round action, which may be split over more than one round. This quality is called the “slow load” quality, and grants one bonus build point for light crossbows and two bonus build points for heavy crossbows, any of which may be spent normally. The Rapid Reload feat reduces a specific character’s load time when he reloads any slow load weapon with which he is proficient. A standard action reload becomes a move action. A full round action reload becomes a standard action. If you have a concept for a ranged weapon you think qualifies for the “slow load” quality, discuss it with your GM.

Improvised Weapons

Improvised weapons—broken bottles, tree limbs, or simple hand tools—can be deadly. Instead of imposing a penalty to attack rolls, improvised weapons are treated as having a build value of only 1 point, which severely limits qualities such as base damage and range, but allows a character in a tight spot to injure and perhaps even kill his enemy with a rock, a chair leg, or a spade. If the wielder has been trained in the use of weapons of the same size and damage type as the improvised weapon, then he may treat the improvised weapon as a simple weapon with a 3-point build value because he understands the physics of its use. Further, if an “improvised” weapon--such as a pick or scythe--is especially suited to combat, the GM may rule on the spot that it could be used as a simple weapon. It is important to note that one should use common sense when attempting to wield an improvised weapon. Shoes, pebbles, small sticks and the like will never be effective weapons, and would not qualify for the 1-point improvised weapon build value.

Simple Weapons

Non-proficiency with a weapon type does not affect a character’s attack roll with the weapon in any way. Instead, non-proficiency limits a character’s ability to use all the weapon’s qualities, so that he must wield it (no matter how expertly it was made) as a simple weapon with a build value of only 3 points. A morningstar wielded by a non-proficient character might look like this: 1d6 (2 pts.), 20x2 (0 pts.), piercing/bludgeoning (1 pt.). By and large, just as in D&D 3.5, characters will choose to wield weapons with which they are proficient.

[Designer Note: This rule eliminates the awkward gaming table moment in which a character loots a truly awesome weapon from a dragon’s horde, only to realize his non-proficiency makes the weapon almost useless to him. I especially loathe the moment of “forced altruism” when a rogue hands a +1 flaming bastard sword over to the fighter because it makes more sense mechanically for him to wield his masterwork dagger. Meta-game suckage!]

Martial Weapons

A 6-point martial weapon will have a higher base damage, better special weapon qualities, a longer range, or superior critical threat range/critical multiplier than a 3-point simple weapon. To say that “Percival can wield his hatchet as a martial weapon” means that he is proficient with light slashing weapons and can therefore take full advantage of its 6-point build value rather than having to use it as a 3-point (simple) weapon. One possible set of statistics for a hatchet might look like this: 1d6 (2 pts.), 19-20x2 (2 pts.), finesse (1 pt.), 10 ft. thrown (1 pt.). If another, non-proficient character picked up Percival’s hatchet, he would treat it as a simple weapon with statistics as follows: 1d6 (2 pts.), 20x2 (0 pts.) finesse (1 pt.) 5 ft. thrown (0 pts.). Another martial build for a lighter throwing axe might look like this: 1d4 (1 pt.), 19-20 x2 (2 pts.), finesse (1 pt.), 20 ft. thrown (2 pts.). A non-proficient wielder would use this lighter axe as follows: 1d4 (1 pt.), 20x2 (0 pts.) finesse (1 pt.), 10 ft. thrown (1 pt.).

Masterwork Weapons

In most instances, a 6-point weapon will yield a weapon more powerful than a D&D 3.5 simple weapon and about as powerful as a D&D 3.5 martial weapon. The masterwork quality, rather than adding a flat +1 to attacks, adds a single point to the weapon build value, for a total of 7 points. This means that one could have a masterwork greatsword with the following statistics: 1d12 (5 pts.), 19-20x2 (2 pts.). Alternatively, one might prefer to build a greatsword which has a default critical threat range, but with two special weapon qualities: 1d12 (5 pts.), 20x2 (0 pts), mounted (1 pt.), set (1 pt.).

[Designer’s Note: the most finely crafted weapons in the world are only somewhat effective in the hands of a non-proficient wielder, no matter how skilled he is with other types of weapons. A shepherd who happens to be a crack-shot with a sling but who has no melee training could certainly swing a masterwork truncheon at a thief, but his blows would be less effective than those of a trained guardsman using the same weapon. The shepherd would swing the truncheon as a simple (3 pt.) weapon with the following stats: 1d8 (3 pts.), 20x2 (0 pts.). The guardsman could use his masterwork truncheon to disarm or trip the thief: 1d8 (3 pts), 20x2 (0 pts.), disarm (2 pts.), trip (2 pts.).]

Exotic Weapons

It is important to note that most “exotic” weapons according to the SRD can and should be built as martial weapons in the weapon build system. Whips, nets, siangham, bolas, hooked hammers, and shuriken are all commonplace weapons in their original country/realm/time period. Most of these weapons are considered “exotic” only by western standards, and many do not afford a statistically superior mechanic—in fact, some are even inferior to their “martial” counterparts according to the SRD. Rather than consider weapons “exotic” based on an assumed western point of view, exotic weapons are special in a significant way.
Exotic weapons have their place in the weapon build system, but should be allowed only after some consideration, since they represent a significant numeric advantage over standard martial weapons, and are slightly more powerful than even masterwork weapons. All exotic weapons are masterwork weapons, so the term “masterwork exotic weapon” is redundant, and would under no circumstances yield a 9-point weapon.

Depending on the campaign setting, racial weapons may play a role. Weapons like the dwarven war axe and the elven longbow have earned iconic status in the minds of gamers everywhere. One also can easily imagine a human warlord chieftain with an especially wicked and dangerous double-headed axe or a martial artist wielding an urumi—a flexible sword-whip with multiple saw-like blades.

Exotic weapons have an impressive 8-point weapon build value, so proficiency must usually be obtained through the Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat. A GM may choose to allow members of a specific race to treat exotic racial weapons as martial weapons, thereby eliminating the need to take the Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat. A character using an exotic weapon without proficiency would wield it as a simple weapon.

One final benefit of an exotic weapon is that the bonus point may be applied to a weapon’s base damage without forcing it into a higher weight category. In other words, a light exotic weapon could be built with 1d8 base damage, and a medium exotic weapon could be built with 1d10 base damage.

[Designer note: A three-section staff is an excellent candidate for an exotic weapon proficiency. According to kung-fu experts, the three-section staff is a particularly tricky and specialized weapon that yields several very specific benefits. If your GM is amenable, this weapon is a good example of an exotic weapon, not because of its Asian flavor, but because it is so versatile that the extra build point afforded by its exotic status actually helps to represent the weapon’s attributes more accurately. Stats for a 3-section staff might look like this: 1d3 (0 pts.), double (1 pt.) finesse (1 pt.), disarm (2 pts.), trip (2 pts.), 5/10 ft. reach (2 pts.). A heavier, less versatile version made for a strength-based fighter might be expressed slightly differently: 1d8 (3 pts.), double (1 pt.), trip (2 pts.) 5/10 ft. reach (2 pts).]


Proficiencies


[Designer's Note: One of the first questions you might ask about this system is how many proficiencies might be available to specific classes. I personally favor grittier campaign settings, and I don't like the idea that any one character could pick up any weapon he came across without a lot of extra training.
Proficiencies are about the ability to use various weapons to their greatest advantage. As such, full-BAB fighting classes should receive the most proficiencies at first level. I'd say 9. 3/4 BAB classes should have some experience with several weapon types, perhaps 6. Even 1/2 BAB classes should have some combat ability, so I'd give them 3.
In more martial campaign settings, you may want to give fighting classes 10 or even all 12 proficiencies, 3/4 BAB classes 9, and 1/2 BAB classes 6. It's really up to the GM and the flavor he wishes to create.
If a player wants to create a true weapon master-type character, he could make use of the following feat:
Weapon Proficiency -- This feat grants proficiency and all its mechanical benefits regarding one of the following weapon types: light slashing, light piercing, light bludgeoning, medium slashing, medium piercing, medium bludgeoning, heavy slashing, heavy piercing, heavy bludgeoning, thrown, projectile, or unarmed. Characters who wield a weapon without proficiency must treat it as a simple (3-point) weapon. See the unarmed section for information about proficient and non-proficient unarmed strikes.]

{table="head;width=700"]Melee Weapon Proficiencies | Light | Medium | Heavy |
Pierching | short sword, light pick, poniard | spear, military fork, javelin | greatspear, lance, ranseur |
Slashing | gladius, hatchet, wakizashi | battleaxe, longsword, katana | greatsword, greataxe, guisarme |
Bludgeoning | cudgel, quarterstaff, nunchakus | heavy mace, heavy hammer, war club | heavy flail, greathammer, great club |
[/table]

Each weight category has its own rules, advantages, and disadvantages. These categories are set according to base damage.

Light Melee Weapons - All attacks with light melee weapons are made using one hand. A character’s strength bonus is added to damage if a light melee weapon is wielded in the main hand, while 1/2 strength bonus (rounded down) is added to damage when the weapon is wielded in the off hand. Light off-hand weapons reduce the penalties for two-weapon fighting as in the SRD. Any light melee weapon may be built with the “finesse” special weapon quality, which makes it eligible for use with the weapon finesse feat. Essentially, the “finesse” special weapon quality indicates that the weapon is balanced for dexterity-based fighting. Light melee weapons may also be built with range increments for characters with the Thrown proficiency. Light melee and thrown weapon base damage ranges from 1d3 to 1d6.

Medium Melee and Thrown Weapons - A character may choose at any time to use either one or both hands to wield a medium melee weapon. A character’s full strength bonus is added when wielding a medium weapon in one hand, or a x2 strength bonus is added when a character wields a medium weapon in two hands. Any medium melee weapon may be built with the “finesse” special weapon quality, which makes it eligible for use with the weapon finesse feat. A character may not simultaneously take advantage of a weapon’s finesse quality and wield it two-handed for the double strength bonus. He must decide before he makes his attack whether he will use one advantage or the other, and this decision applies for the entire round. Medium melee weapons may be built with range increments. Medium melee and thrown weapon base damage is 1d6 or 1d8.

Heavy Melee Weapons - All attacks with heavy melee weapons must be made using a character’s strength modifier, and all heavy weapons must be wielded with two hands. Further, characters must have a strength score of 12 or higher in order to effectively wield a heavy melee weapon. Characters with a strength score of 11 or lower are considered non-proficient with any heavy weapon—regardless of their earned proficiencies—and will wield any heavy weapon as a simple (3 build point) weapon. A character adds double his strength bonus when he wields a heavy melee weapon, regardless of his proficiency with that weapon. Heavy melee weapons may be built with range increments. Heavy melee weapon base damage may range from 1d8 to 1d12.

{table="head;width=700"]Special Proficiencies |Thrown, Unarmed, and Projectile|
Thrown | True proficiency with a thrown weapon requires both proficiency with the weapon type (light piercing or medium bludgeoning, for example) and the thrown weapon proficiency. Any character may throw any suitable melee weapon with the default 5-ft. range, but a character without the thrown proficiency must treat it as a 3-point weapon. The thrown proficiency allows the character to wield thrown weapons more effectively. When throwing a weapon with a range increment, proficient characters utilize its full martial (6 pt.) weapon mechanics, including any range increments inherent to the weapon build. Examples: dart, shuriken, javelin, bolas, throwing dagger, francesca |
Projectile | The character is proficient with all projectile weapons, including all bows, crossbows, slings, and blowguns. This allows him to use these weapons as martial (6 pt.) weapons. A character who is not proficient with projectile weapons must use them as simple (3 pt.) weapons, which reduces damage, range, and any special weapon qualities. |
Unarmed | The character is proficient with unarmed combat and may treat his unarmed strike as though it is an improvised (1-point) melee weapon--including a critical threat range of 20x2. The player must decide when selecting this proficiency how he will spend this point. For example, he may select the “finessable” special weapon quality or 1d4 base damage. The character also does not provoke attacks of opportunity when attacking with his unarmed strike. All other combat rules apply to this mode of fighting. Characters who are not proficient in unarmed combat deal 1d3 subdual damage, provoke attacks of opportunity when attacking, and may not threaten a critical hit when making an unarmed strike. All other standard combat rules apply to unarmed strikes. The Unarmed Combat proficiency also serves as a prerequisite for feats and abilities related to unarmed fighting.
[/table]

Unarmed Feats

The following feats have been crafted to augment unarmed combat under the Weapon Build System:

Martial Arts – Your unarmed strike counts as a simple (3-point) melee weapon. You may select such qualities damage, critical threats and multipliers, or appropriate special weapon qualities as you and your GM see fit.

Advanced Martial Arts – Your unarmed strike counts as a martial (6-point) melee weapon. You may select such qualities damage, critical threats and multipliers, or appropriate special weapon qualities as you and your GM see fit.

Martial Arts Master – Your unarmed strike counts as an exotic (8-point) melee weapon. You may select such qualities damage, critical threats and multipliers, or appropriate special weapon qualities as you and your GM see fit.


Building Your Weapons

[Designer’s Note: Weapon Damage: For the purposes of symmetry and sentiment, I have excised the “2d6” damage increment and replaced with 1d12. I like the idea of characters rolling a single die for base damage and every die being available for use. Feel free to substitute 2d6 if it suits your fancy.]

Melee and Thrown Weapon Qualities
Weapon building - Each player is free to choose any damage type (piercing, slashing, or bludgeoning) in order to build the weapon that suits him. Weapon sizes are tied to damage: Light (L), Medium (M), Heavy (H). Any suitable melee weapon can be built with the “thrown” special quality. Spend the points to buy the range you would like.

Projectile Weapon Qualities
Each player is free to choose any damage type (piercing, slashing, or bludgeoning) in order to build the weapon that suits him. There are no specific weapon sizes as such in this category. The player is free to imagine the structure of the weapon itself to fit the crunch. For example, a 1d8 bow might take the form of a longbow or a compound shortbow. See the Special Weapon Quality chart below for more information.

Weapons for Creatures of Sizes other than Medium
The chart below only deals explicitly with medium-sized weapons for medium-sized characters. In order for the numbers to work out, the point allotment and set costs of weapon qualities should remain the same as it appears in the chart below. Additions or subtractions of weapon point values would either severely limit the versatility of small (and smaller) weapons while vastly improving the versatility of large (and larger weapons). Instead, base weapon damage should change according to the size of the weapon. The smaller the weapon, the more points one must invest before improving the base damage beyond the default 1d3. Conversely, the larger the weapon, the higher the default (zero-point) base damage. One possible solution to this concept might look like this:

{table="head;width=700"] Point Cost | 0 pt. | 1 pt. | 2 pts. | 3 pts. | 4 pts. | 5 pts.
{colsp=1} Unusually Sized Weapons
Small Base Damage | 1d3-1 | 1d3 | 1d4 | 1d6 | 1d8 | 1d10 |
Base Damage | 1d4 | 1d6 | 1d8 | 1d10 | 1d12 | 2d8 |
[/table]

The GM should be free to experiment with these concepts according to his idea of what the dice system of weapon damage actually represents, how significant weapon sizes might be, and how effective he wishes to make weapons of various sizes.


Special Weapon Qualities and Tiers
The weapon’s “build” is a description of its physical characteristics. In the real world, a combatant proficient with a whip could trip or disarm an opponent. The whip itself is a finessable subdual 15-foot reach weapon. This is not a new concept. Gamers are comfortable, for example, with the halberd, which possesses the “trip” and “set” special weapon qualities. Characters may build their weapons any way they wish, but they can’t just pick up any weapon on the battlefield and apply any quality they wish to it, regardless of proficiencies. All weapon qualities are built into the weapon from the start. The qualities of each weapon will either pre-exist (if they have been statted-out for use by a PC or NPC) or will be adjudicated on the spot by the GM. A proficient wielder may trip with a found halberd endowed with the “trip” special weapon quality. However, when the same character picks up a whip (with which he is non-proficient), he will use it as a simple weapon, and he can’t use the bonus to trip or disarm attacks.


{table="head;width=700"] Tier | Melee and Thrown | Projectile |
{colsp=1} Special Weapon Quality Tiers
Tier 1 | Set, Finesse, Concealable | Composite +1, Composite +1, Concealable, finesse, melee 2 pt. |
Tier 2 | Disarm, Mounted, Sunder, Trip | composite +2, poison delivery, quick load, melee 3 pts. |
Tier 3 | - | composite +3 |
Tier 4 | Entangle | Composite +4 |
Tier 5 | - | Composite +5 |
[/table]

Weapon Build Table
{table="head;width=700"]Point Cost | 0 pt. | 1 pt. | 2 pts. | 3 pts. | 4 pts. | 5 pts.
{colsp=6}Melee and Thrown Weapons
Base Damage | 1d3 | 1d4 | 1d6 | 1d8 | 1d10 | 1d12 |1
Critical Threat Range | 20 | - | 19-20 | - | 18-20 |-
Critical Multiplier | x2 | - | x3 | - | x4 |-
Damage Type(s) | any single | 2 types | 3 Types | | - | - |-
Reach | melee | 10 ft. | 10/15 ft. (whip) | - | 5/10 | - |-
Thrown | 5 ft. | 10 ft. | 20 ft. | 30 ft. | - |-
Special Weapon Qualities | - | Tier 1 | Tier 2 | - | Tier 4 |-
{colsp=6}Projectile Weapons
Base Damage | 1d3 | 1d4 | 1d6 | 1d8 | 1d10 | 1d12 | -
Critical Threat Range | 20 | - | 19-20 | - | 18-20 |-
Critical Multiplier | x2 | - | x3 | - | x4 |-
Damage Type(s) | any single | 2 types | 3 Types | - | - |-
Range | 30 ft. | 60 ft. | 90 ft. | 120 ft. | - | - |-
Special Weapon Qualities | - | Tier 1 | Tier 2 | Tier 3 | - | Tier 5 |-
[/table]


Weapon Qualities

Cost: GM Prerogative. [Designer’s note: I use a very different system of wealth in my campaigns, and I have little use for a standardized list of costs for specific items. In my opinion, a weapon’s cost should be based on its availability, which may vary widely from campaign setting to campaign setting and region to region. Please feel free to refer to the SRD if you need a pricing guide.]

Critical: This refers to how the weapon is used with the rules for critical hits. When your character scores a critical hit, roll the damage, including strength bonus damage (if any) and multiply it by two, three, or four, as indicated by its critical multiplier (using all applicable modifiers on each roll). Exception: Extra damage over and above a weapon’s normal damage, such as skirmish or sneak attack damage, is not multiplied when you score a critical hit.
x2: The weapon deals double damage on a critical hit.
x3: The weapon deals triple damage on a critical hit.
x4: The weapon deals quadruple damage on a critical hit.
19–20/x2: The weapon scores a threat on a natural roll of 19 or 20 (instead of just 20) and deals double damage on a critical hit. (The weapon has a threat range of 19–20.)
18–20/x2: The weapon scores a threat on a natural roll of 18, 19, or 20 (instead of just 20) and deals double damage on a critical hit. (The weapon has a threat range of 18–20.)

Range Increment: Any attack at this distance or less than this distance is not penalized for range. However, exceeding each full range increment imposes a cumulative –2 penalty on the attack roll. A thrown weapon has a maximum range of five range increments. A missile weapon can shoot out to ten range increments.

Weight: Weapons weigh between 1 lb. and 12 lb. Choose an appropriate weight for your weapon, based on its size and the type of damage it does.

Damage Type: Some weapons deal damage of two types. Normally, the weapon deals both types of damage at once (as with a morningstar). It is possible to build a weapon that deals slashing, bludgeoning, and piercing damage (such as a halberd). In a situation when the damage type is significant, the wielder can choose which type of damage to deal with such a weapon.

Special Material: Weapons and ammunition can be made of special materials, usually to bypass damage reduction or ignore hardness, etc. Such weapons are generally rare, and will become available as a development of the story rather than as a commodity. If you have a concept about a weapon or ammunition made from a special material, discuss it with your GM.

Special Weapon Qualities: Some weapons have special qualities. See the Special Weapon Section for details.

Reach Weapons: A reach weapon is a melee weapon that allows its wielder to strike at targets that aren’t adjacent to him. Most reach weapons double the wielder’s natural reach, meaning that a typical wielder of such a weapon can attack a creature 10 feet away, but not a creature in an adjacent square. Certain weapon builds, such as the whip, can take advantage of the 2-point “10ft./15ft. reach" quality, but this extremely flexible and versatile weapon may only do subdual damage. Players can buy the "5ft./10ft. reach” qualitiy for four points, but this quality incurs a -2 penalty to all attacks made with the weapon.

Ammunition: Projectile weapons use ammunition: arrows (for bows), bolts (for crossbows), needles (for blowguns), or sling bullets (for slings). Reload times are given in the Ranged Weapons Reload Actions table. Generally speaking, ammunition that hits its target is destroyed or rendered useless, while normal ammunition that misses has a 50% chance of being destroyed or lost. Thrown weapons are treated as ammunition for the purposes of drawing them and crafting masterwork or otherwise special versions of them, but they are only destroyed when thrown under unusual circumstances.


Special Weapon Qualities

{table="head;width=700"] | | Special Weapon Qualities |
|Composite | Bows and Crossbows — adds 20 feet to the weapon’s range per composite damage point and allows wielder to add +1 strength bonus to damage on a successful attack. Up to five points of composite strength damage can be added to one weapon. If the wielder has a strength bonus that does not match or exceed the damage bonus afforded by this quality, he is unable to effectively draw the bow or crossbow, and he may not make ranged attacks with it. |
| Concealable | Any Suitable Weapon — This weapon is constructed in such a way that it is easily tucked into a pocket or concealed sheath, strapped to a limb under clothing, disassembled and reassembled, or crafted in such a way that it looks like something other than a weapon. This quality adds +4 to Sleight-of-Hand checks or Bluff checks to hide the existence or purpose of the weapon. The GM may decide that certain light weapons -- such as the dagger, shuriken, or dart -- may receive this quality for free due to their inherent size and shape. |
| Disarm | Any Melee Weapon — The weapon is built in such a way that its wielder may more easily disarm his opponent. Grants a +2 bonus on attack rolls made to disarm an opponent (and the roll to keep from being disarmed if the attack fails). |
| Entangle | Suitable Melee Weapon — This quality only applies to a net or to similar weapons. The entangle special weapon quality nullifies the possibility of the weapon dealing damage. If the wielder succeeds on a ranged touch attack, he target must make a reflex saving throw (DC = attack roll) or become entangled. An entangled creature takes a –2 penalty on attack rolls and a –4 penalty to Dexterity, can move at only half speed, and cannot charge or run. Drawing a weapon is a full-round action for an entangled creature. The wielder may control the trailing rope by succeeding on an opposed Strength check while holding it, and if successful, the entangled creature can move only within the limits that the rope allows. If the entangled creature attempts to use a supernatural power with somatic components, it must make a DC 15 Concentration check or lose the power points spent. An entangled creature can escape with a DC 20 Escape Artist check (a full-round action). The net has 5 hit points and can be burst with a DC 25 Strength check (also a full-round action) or cut with a knife or other edged weapon, (also a full-round action). An entangling weapon is useful only against creatures within one size category of the wielder. A net must be folded to be thrown effectively. The first time you throw your net in a fight, you make a normal ranged touch attack roll. After the net is unfolded, you take a –4 penalty on attack rolls with it. It takes 2 rounds for a proficient user to fold a net and twice that long for a non-proficient one to do so. |
| Finesse | Any Suitable Light or Medium Melee Weapon — A wielder with the Weapon Finesse feat may use his dexterity modifier rather than his strength modifier to make attacks with this weapon. |
| Melee | Any Suitable Projectile Weapon — The wielder may make melee attacks with this weapon. Default: any ranged weapon of substantial durability can be used at melee range as an improvised weapon. Spend 1 weapon build point to add 2 build points to the melee aspect of a projectile weapon. Spend 2 weapon build points to add 3 build points to the melee aspect of a projectile weapon. (Ex: crossbow with fixed bayonet, iron plate on the stock, etc.) This quality makes a projectile weapon more versatile, but slightly less effective at range. |
| Mounted | Any Suitable Melee Weapon — A weapon with this quality does double base damage on successful attacks from the back of a charging mount. |
| Poison Delivery | Suitable Weapon — Certain weapons, such as darts and blowguns, are designed not to do much damage on their own, but to deliver poisons or other malicious chemical or alchemical agents. Weapons with this quality incur no possibility of the poisoner poisoning himself. |
| Set | Any Suitable Medium or Heavy Melee Weapon — This weapon may be set against a charge as a readied action. If the attack is successful, the weapon does double damage. |
| Slow Load | Any Crossbow – Crossbows, though they are more cumbersome to load, have the advantages of allowing the wielder to release a draw force far in excess of conventional bows, which could improve damage and/or range. Light crossbows (1d8 damage or less) are loaded in one standard action and gain one build point, which may be spent normally. Heavy Crossbows (1d10 or more damage) are loaded in a ful round action and gain two build points, which may be spent normally. |
| Subdual | Any Suitable Melee Weapon — This weapon can only be used to do subdual damage. This quality costs -1 weapon build point, which may be spent in the usual manner. Also, a confirmed critical forces a flat-footed target to make a fortitude save (DC = damage taken) or be dazed for 1 round. Failure by 10 or more means the target is stunned for 1 round. Subdual weapons are not effective in pitched melee combat. |
| Sunder | Any Suitable Melee Weapon — This weapon is built specifically to break other melee weapons. The wielder gains a +2 on attack rolls made to sunder an opponent’s melee weapon of one specific damage type: piercing, slashing, or bludgeoning. |
| Trip | Any Suitable Melee Weapon — This weapon is built specifically to trip opponents. The wielder gains a +2 on attack rolls made to trip an opponent. If the wielder fails, he may drop the weapon in order to avoid being tripped himself. |
[/table]

Veklim
2011-12-06, 11:05 AM
erm....epic.
Finding it hard to read with current editing oddities. Tidy it up please! :smallredface:

EDIT:
No worries! :smallbiggrin:

Seerow
2011-12-06, 12:07 PM
Why does this sound familiar.... (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=202722)

Siosilvar
2011-12-06, 05:28 PM
Why does this sound familiar.... (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=202722)

As if you were the first (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=163592) to come up with the idea.

EDIT: To be perfectly clear, I like your work, but you can hardly claim ownership of the idea. How many monk/fighter/paladin fixes are there out there that draw off each other and improve on each other? If only one change could ever be made, we'd still be playing Moldvay B/X.

Howler Dagger
2011-12-06, 05:42 PM
Wow! You have presented so much stuff! The OP is detailed and thourough, completely convincing me to use to system outlined, which is clear, concise, and actualy there. I am enlightened now! I shall use this from now on! Thanks you, for revealing me to the truth of definitly-existing homebrew! I salute you!Thanks to seerow for the blue text thing. And you know, actually making something like this.

Siosilvar
2011-12-06, 08:50 PM
Wow! You have presented so much stuff! The OP is detailed and thorough, completely convincing me to use to system outlined, which is clear, concise, and actually there. I am enlightened now! I shall use this from now on! Thanks you, for revealing me to the truth of definitely-existing homebrew! I salute you!

Wow, I'm really encouraged to homebrew now, since I see homebrewers get such a warm welcome here.

It'd be nice to actually get some content (or a [WIP] in the header), but sarcasm is a fine art:smalltongue: and I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't misuse it.

Hanuman
2011-12-06, 09:00 PM
Ever wonder why simple and thrown weapons suck? In the real world, these weapons can kill, but in D&D, even mages can usually laugh at them.
{{scrubbed}}

Mechanics are decided by bickering, simply put the majority finds it causes less complaints as it is than it could be.

A 20' fall can kill you sure, but DnD is designed to be like a movie, the more established a character is the more plot armor they gain.

Seerow
2011-12-06, 10:15 PM
As if you were the first (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=163592) to come up with the idea.

EDIT: To be perfectly clear, I like your work, but you can hardly claim ownership of the idea. How many monk/fighter/paladin fixes are there out there that draw off each other and improve on each other? If only one change could ever be made, we'd still be playing Moldvay B/X.

I never claimed to own the idea. I know there's several projects out there that have done similar things, and some predate my own. But mine is the most comprehensive overhaul that I am personally aware of, and it doesn't seem that the OP was aware that others have already beat him to it (see: "I invented...."), so I figured I might give him a link and save him a bit of work, for the same reason I'd send someone a link to Jiriku's monk if they're talking about how they want to revamp the monk but don't like the psionic or ToB route most posters take with their fixes.

Zed's Dead
2011-12-20, 12:48 PM
Homebrewers, check out the newly-minted Weapon Build System!

Veklim, SheepInDisguise, Siosilvar, Hanuman, and Seerow, I thank you for your humor, links, and suggestions.

I see what you mean. Did I "invent" this system? Well, yes and no. I had never seen any of the threads you had mentioned and have thus far been only a casual contributor to and observer of the homebrew boards, and I did combine these ideas out of various houserules I have developed over the years. Regardless of the system's origins, I honestly think this is a way of looking at weapons that would help foster individuality in weapon selection and eliminate the "of course, my character would use a rapier" weapon selection process. Variety is the spice of life, after all.

PCs in my campaign might actually be concerned when facing off against enemies armed with only bolas and blowguns.

I am truly interested in feedback--error correction, of course, but also commentary and observations of the system itself.

Thanks in advance.

junglesteve
2011-12-20, 12:56 PM
All of these seem to be fairly similar to the black companys printed weapon enhancement.

Zed's Dead
2011-12-20, 01:21 PM
All of these seem to be fairly similar to the black companys printed weapon enhancement.

Cool. Do you have a link?

Siosilvar
2011-12-20, 03:09 PM
You've overpriced critical hits. There's very little reason to use a 1d4/19-20 weapon when a 1d8/20 weapon costs the same and does more damage on everything except a 19.

Zed's Dead
2011-12-20, 03:24 PM
That's debatable, depending on the character's build. It depends on what you want from the weapon. A d8 weapon, for example, can't serve as an off-hand weapon for TWF. Also, a d4 weapon would be easily concealed.

Siosilvar
2011-12-20, 03:44 PM
There are few circumstances where an extra 4% chance (assuming an 80% hit rate) to deal 2x damage beats out an extra point of damage. The math is much the same with taking a multiplier increase instead of a threat range increase.

Circumstance 1: You already deal 25 damage or more per hit, and all of that can be multiplied on a critical hit (or you gain 25 bonus damage on a critical hit). Note that this number goes up if you hit less, to 34 at 60% to hit, 40 at 50%, and 50 at 40%; unless you can get 4-5 points of PA damage per to-hit sacrificed, you lose out on average damage.

Circumstance 2: You have some super-awesome effect that kicks in on a critical hit. Lightning Maces is a good example. Blood in the Water is not (+1 to hit and damage is an iffy bonus).

Not to mention that consistent damage is more useful than occasional spikes, both because you can count on it being there and because there's less overkill.

EDIT:
A d8 weapon, for example, can't serve as an off-hand weapon for TWF. Also, a d4 weapon would be easily concealed.

And where, exactly, do those qualifiers come from? I can't see anything to that effect. Nothing stops me from making a light d8 weapon or a two-handed d4 weapon.

Zed's Dead
2011-12-20, 04:03 PM
Thanks for the math. It clarifies the question.

Check out the proficiency section under "medium weapons."

Yitzi
2011-12-20, 04:51 PM
A few internal contradictions:

-Slow load is said in one place to add 2 points for a heavy crossbow and take an FRA, but in another to add only 1 and take only a standard action.
-You list the greatsword as buying 1d12 damage for 4 points, but later on you say that costs 5 points.


Also, what do you mean "subdual weapons are not effective in pitched melee combat"?
Also, is there any reason not to give an item the 5' thrown ability?
Is there any advantage of a light or heavy weapon over a medium one of the same damage, other than a different proficiency?

Veklim
2011-12-20, 04:55 PM
You've overpriced critical hits. There's very little reason to use a 1d4/19-20 weapon when a 1d8/20 weapon costs the same and does more damage on everything except a 19.

I agree with regards to the first upgrade, but 19-20/x3 is probably about right. Trouble with giving linear costs for range AND multiplier (in my opinion) is that a 19-20/x2 gives a better payout than a 20/x3, and as Siosilvar pointed out, base damage has a lot to do with the structure of your critical.

Another thing I'm a little disappointed over is the lack of multiple dice damages. My best mate (and occassional DM) has a truly incredible curse on dice, and finds it hard to roll more than half on anything more than once a session, unless he's DMing :smallamused:. As such he would resort to greatswords and falchions frequently, because they gave him a bellcurve for damage (nice for any melee build, and essential for Andy!). It's more of a niggle than a problem, I just felt I had to say something!

As Seerow rather inelegantly pointed out, there are many people who have done this, or something similar before. What I'm sure wasn't meant was to demean the effort which you've invested to produce this, merely to suggest researching the topic first (if only a little). This will likely not sway you, but you may find things which you wish to borrow from, or maybe even an existant system with playtesting and six months of edits which does everything your idea did and more.

These things aside, this seems to be pretty solid after a once over. I might come back to it tomorrow and work a few weapon builds for a playtest or two. If the criticals are to work they need changing somehow (will think on that) but this does offer a reasonable amount of choice, and the possibility of expanding.

Zed's Dead
2011-12-20, 07:16 PM
A few internal contradictions:

-Slow load is said in one place to add 2 points for a heavy crossbow and take an FRA, but in another to add only 1 and take only a standard action.
-You list the greatsword as buying 1d12 damage for 4 points, but later on you say that costs 5 points.

Yeah. Thanks for your quick, insightful reaponse. Those are typos I will fix. This has gone through several iterations. Light crossbows should yield 1 pt for a standard action load. Heavy crossbows should yield 2 pts. for a FRA load. 1d12 should cost 5 pts.



Also, what do you mean "subdual weapons are not effective in pitched melee combat"?

Yep. That was unclear. I should have stated it more like this "purely subdual weapons such as the sap are not viable in melee combat." I have a hard time imagining a sap-wielding warrior facing off against someone with a longsword. Now, we do have a common image of fighters using a whip to disarm or trip foes, but generally, when whips are used to actually hurt someone, it's more of a torture/corporal punishment situation.


Also, is there any reason not to give an item the 5' thrown ability?
Nope. It comes free. It's an attempt to make thrown weapons more viable than RAW. Of course, characters not proficient with thrown weapons will not be very effective with them.

Is there any advantage of a light or heavy weapon over a medium one of the same damage, other than a different proficiency? Light: Yes. TWF, concealment. Heavy: higher base damage potential. Medium weapons are quite versatile.

Veklim
2011-12-20, 07:35 PM
OK, possible thought on the critical fix.

Cost up multipliers at +1 for x3 & +2 for x4, cost up range increases at +2 for 19-20 & +3 for 18-20, and cap it at a maximum number of critical increases at 2 for light, 3 for medium and 4 for heavy.

Might balance out the criticals a bit, but it's certainly up for debate since that's just my opinion.

Veklim
2011-12-20, 07:42 PM
I have a hard time imagining a sap-wielding warrior facing off against someone with a longsword. Whereas I understand the sentiment here, I guarantee you would feel differently after being smacked upside the head by one. :smallwink:


Now, we do have a common image of fighters using a whip to disarm or trip foes, but generally, when whips are used to actually hurt someone, it's more of a torture/corporal punishment situation. Again true, but a whipdagger puts a quick stop on that arguement from both sides. Curious...how would one make a whipdagger with this?

Yitzi
2011-12-20, 09:48 PM
is that a 19-20/x2 gives a better payout than a 20/x3

Not really. It's the same expected damage either way in most cases; the 19-20/x2 is more evenly distributed, but the 20/x3 has an easier time forcing a save vs. massive damage and is also useful in those cases where you only hit on 20.


Another thing I'm a little disappointed over is the lack of multiple dice damages. My best mate (and occassional DM) has a truly incredible curse on dice, and finds it hard to roll more than half on anything more than once a session, unless he's DMing :smallamused:. As such he would resort to greatswords and falchions frequently, because they gave him a bellcurve for damage (nice for any melee build, and essential for Andy!). It's more of a niggle than a problem, I just felt I had to say something!

Maybe allow 2d6 or 1d12? Similarly, maybe allow 2d4 instead of 1d10.


Yep. That was unclear. I should have stated it more like this "purely subdual weapons such as the sap are not viable in melee combat."

Still not clear. What does that mean in terms of the crunch? Do they fail to work against anyone wielding a melee weapon? Do they only work against flat-footed (real flat-footed, not just denied DEX bonus to AC) opponents?


Nope. It comes free. It's an attempt to make thrown weapons more viable than RAW. Of course, characters not proficient with thrown weapons will not be very effective with them.

So any weapon can be thrown 5'?

Seerow
2011-12-20, 09:59 PM
OK, possible thought on the critical fix.

Cost up multipliers at +1 for x3 & +2 for x4, cost up range increases at +2 for 19-20 & +3 for 18-20, and cap it at a maximum number of critical increases at 2 for light, 3 for medium and 4 for heavy.

Might balance out the criticals a bit, but it's certainly up for debate since that's just my opinion.

I ran the numbers when doing this for my system, it winds up like this:

19-20x2 = 4.75% increase
20x3 = 4.75% increase
18-20x2 = 9.5% increase
20x4 = 9.5% increase
19-20x3 = 14.3% increase
19-20x4 = 23.8% increase
18-20x3 = 23.8% increase
18-20x4 = 38.1% increase


You can assign slot costs accordingly.

Zed's Dead
2011-12-21, 12:14 AM
I agree with regards to the first upgrade, but 19-20/x3 is probably about right. Trouble with giving linear costs for range AND multiplier (in my opinion) is that a 19-20/x2 gives a better payout than a 20/x3, and as Siosilvar pointed out, base damage has a lot to do with the structure of your critical.

From what I've read, the two are close enough that it doesn't matter that much. This whole game is based on approximations, not perfectly exact numbers.



Another thing I'm a little disappointed over is the lack of multiple dice damages. My best mate (and occassional DM) has a truly incredible curse on dice, and finds it hard to roll more than half on anything more than once a session, unless he's DMing :smallamused:. As such he would resort to greatswords and falchions frequently, because they gave him a bellcurve for damage (nice for any melee build, and essential for Andy!). It's more of a niggle than a problem, I just felt I had to say something!

I try to make it clear in my document that GMs are perfectly free to use 2d6 rather than 1d12. I'd feel the same about 2d4 replacing 1d8. Again, it's not that big of a difference. My purpose is not to perfect the numbers, but instead to offer something cooler and more fun regarding weapons. I always did like the falchion for that reason, btw.



As Seerow rather inelegantly pointed out, there are many people who have done this, or something similar before. What I'm sure wasn't meant was to demean the effort which you've invested to produce this, merely to suggest researching the topic first (if only a little). This will likely not sway you, but you may find things which you wish to borrow from, or maybe even an existant system with playtesting and six months of edits which does everything your idea did and more.

Well, I certainly know now, don't I? I would encourage folks to look at the whole document before they judge how original it is. I hereby renounce any claim to originality in my thinking on this. I'd like to see myself as an innovator on his own terms. I did come up with this on my own, without ever seeing anything like it on the boards, and that's enough for me. The purpose here is not self-aggrandizement, but the pursuit of a better, more fun way of making and using weapons. I see this entire homebrew thread as a grassroots forum for ideas, usually handled in a civilized and honorable manner. As a gamer, how can I ask for anything more?



These things aside, this seems to be pretty solid after a once over. I might come back to it tomorrow and work a few weapon builds for a playtest or two. If the criticals are to work they need changing somehow (will think on that) but this does offer a reasonable amount of choice, and the possibility of expanding.

Thanks! Again, I hope you have time to read the whole thing, if you haven't already. I would welcome new weapon builds, etc. This discussion of criticals has really surprised me. As far as I'm concerned, the way I laid out cost has allowed me to make pretty much any weapon in the SRD and beyond. The difference between 1d8 20x2 and 1d4 19-20x2 is the difference between a mace and a dagger, two of the most often chosen "simple" weapons in the SRD (at least in my experience). Should someone take a knife to a mace fight? Probably not, but the dagger does have its place in d20 fantasy gaming, right?

Thanks for your response, Veklim!

Zed's Dead
2011-12-21, 12:18 AM
Whereas I understand the sentiment here, I guarantee you would feel differently after being smacked upside the head by one. :smallwink:

Again true, but a whipdagger puts a quick stop on that arguement from both sides. Curious...how would one make a whipdagger with this?

I agree. I'm glad we don't actually have to face our creations on the battlefield. It's about believability. You just don't take a sap to a sword fight. It's more of a "rule zero" thing for me. It smacks of the "rules first" mentality--"if it's acceptable under the rules, then I could do it!"--no matter if it takes everyone else out of the game.

Whipdagger. I've never encountered one before. What would that look like? Slashing damage? I'll make one for you if you give me the specs.

Zed's Dead
2011-12-21, 12:28 AM
I ran the numbers when doing this for my system, it winds up like this:

19-20x2 = 4.75% increase
20x3 = 4.75% increase
18-20x2 = 9.5% increase
20x4 = 9.5% increase
19-20x3 = 14.3% increase
19-20x4 = 23.8% increase
18-20x3 = 23.8% increase
18-20x4 = 38.1% increase


You can assign slot costs accordingly.

Cool. It is really great to see this fleshed out numerically--that expanded range and improved multipliers really are balanced. Thanks, Seerow.

Zed's Dead
2011-12-21, 12:37 AM
Still not clear. What does that mean in terms of the crunch? Do they fail to work against anyone wielding a melee weapon? Do they only work against flat-footed (real flat-footed, not just denied DEX bonus to AC) opponents?

I will specify more. I would rule-zero the sap in pitched melee combat. A sap is a weapon which would only work against a flat-footed, helpless, or otherwise inhibited opponent. Nobody would bring a sap to a deadly duel.

Whips, bolas, and the like are subdual weapons which should work normally in a fight. I guess we're debating about questions of flavor.



So any weapon can be thrown 5'?

Yes. just like you could throw a rock at an opponent, you could (in a tight spot) throw your sword, mace, or halberd at an opponent. Let me be clear. I'm not trying to create a system where every combat is filled with rapiers and greataxes flying all over the place, but rather create a system in which it could be plausible, if necessary, for someone to throw his sword across the room to cut a rope or kill a mook at just the right time in order to save the day. An opportunity in the rules for heroism which, if not realistic, is at least a part of our collective vision of fantasy adventure. I also can't believe how lame the SRD thrown weapons are, and I wanted to give them some love.

Zed's Dead
2011-12-23, 09:08 PM
I think non-proficiency should affect damage and other qualities, not the attack roll. I mean, honestly, if a fighter could cut you down with a longsword, couldn't he hit you just as easily with a kama?

Benly
2011-12-23, 11:32 PM
I ran the numbers when doing this for my system, it winds up like this:

19-20x2 = 4.75% increase
20x3 = 4.75% increase
18-20x2 = 9.5% increase
20x4 = 9.5% increase
19-20x3 = 14.3% increase
19-20x4 = 23.8% increase
18-20x3 = 23.8% increase
18-20x4 = 38.1% increase


You can assign slot costs accordingly.

An important thing to note is that these are worth considerably more than a proportionate increase to the die size. Increasing your crit rate to 18-20/x2 is a 9.5% increase to your total damage output per hit while increasing from 1d2 to 1d4 is a 66% increase to the weapon die's damage only. That 1d2 to 1d4 is doing nothing for your Strength bonus, Power Attack, and so on.

Siosilvar
2011-12-24, 11:29 AM
An important thing to note is that these are worth considerably more than a proportionate increase to the die size. Increasing your crit rate to 18-20/x2 is a 9.5% increase to your total damage output per hit while increasing from 1d2 to 1d4 is a 66% increase to the weapon die's damage only. That 1d2 to 1d4 is doing nothing for your Strength bonus, Power Attack, and so on.

1d2 average: 1.5
1d4 average: 2.5 (+1)

Damage necessary to increase the average by 1 by buying an 18-20/x2 crit from 20/x2: 1/.095 = 10.5

It is only more helpful if you've got another 10.5 points of damage that are multiplied. The 4.75%, 9.5%, etc. numbers also assume you always hit except on a 1; if you hit less, the critical range helps less.

Seerow
2011-12-24, 03:39 PM
1d2 average: 1.5
1d4 average: 2.5 (+1)

Damage necessary to increase the average by 1 by buying an 18-20/x2 crit from 20/x2: 1/.095 = 10.5

It is only more helpful if you've got another 10.5 points of damage that are multiplied. The 4.75%, 9.5%, etc. numbers also assume you always hit except on a 1; if you hit less, the critical range helps less.

The 4.75% 9.5% etc was derived with the assumption of hitting on an 8, which is actually a relatively low assumption, especially at high levels. You are right that hitting more or less can make that worth more, but the relative values of crit damage vs crit range, and their interractions is more what I was looking for, and the assumption of hitting on an 8 is a good baseline to find that information, as they should scale up and down about the same.



Weapon damage dice increase is pretty much the best option at low levels. 1d4+6 with a 18-20x4 crit averages something like 11 damage. 2d6+6 with a 20x2 crit average slightly over 13. And at level 1-3, +6 is about the highest damage bonus you expect to see. (You can optimize it to higher values, but then you get to niche optimization as opposed to standard stuff)

On the other hand, at mid-high level, as attributes increase, hit chances rise, and you have more bonus damage, which contributes to % bonuses pushing crit ahead, the question is less a matter of if as much as when.

The exception, ironically enough, is rogues, who despite being the ones who would traditionally use crit heavy weapons, don't get their precision damage multiplied by a crit. So bonus dice damage dealers typically want higher base weapon damage vs crit stuff for a much longer period of time than the DMFers who get lots of flat damage that gets multiplied on a crit.

I had a different solution to the problem of weapon damage dice being invalidated at higher levels, which as far as I know I am the one who invented, which you can find here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=216528)

Benly
2011-12-25, 02:27 PM
It is only more helpful if you've got another 10.5 points of damage that are multiplied.

Pretty much any character who cares this much about the properties of his weapon is going to have a higher static bonus than that by level 5. Anyone who doesn't is either a rogue-type who pretty much just cares "can I finesse/dual wield it" because sneak attack is going to overwhelm the damage die pretty quickly or is probably a character type that doesn't plan to use his weapon enough to want to screw around with a weapon-customization system.

Siosilvar
2011-12-25, 10:45 PM
-snip-

We were looking at different things, and I really don't know why I was doing the math I was. You're closer to correct.

Regardless: If crit bonuses are priced at 1 point of average damage per effective bonus (where 20/19/18 and x2/x3/x4 are worth 1/2/3 points respectively, multiplied together), then it's best to increase damage until you get 21 damage, then bump up the critical hit.

If you change the crit bonus price, then you'll need to multiply by the same number; if it's worth .5 points of average damage, switch over at 10.5; if it's priced at 2 points of damage each, switching over at 42 average damage keeps the highest per-hit rate.