[3.5] Obligatory Monthly Samurai Thread

[NineThePuma]

So, the Samurai is Tier 6, though admittedly high tier 6. My question is basically "why?" but is also sort of bolstered by "what was different about the 3.0 samurai?"

And as a related tangent "short of giving it casting, how can you improve the class to be less useless?"

[JadePhoenix]

You, the Oriental Adventures' Samurai? Everything.
The OA Samurai was basically a Fighter that could improve his own weapon, had a better skill list and more skill points, had Iaijutsu Focus and bonus feats (though less than the Fighter and divided in different styles).
You had styles for TWF, for mobile fighting, for achery, for PA... you name it.
The OA Samurai can only do TWF + intimidation.
So on one hand you have a Samurai that can be customized. On the other hand... not so much.

[Big Fau]

So, the Samurai is Tier 6, though admittedly high tier 6. My question is basically "why?" but is also sort of bolstered by "what was different about the 3.0 samurai?"

And as a related tangent "short of giving it casting, how can you improve the class to be less useless?"

Here are the core abilities of the CW Samurai:


Full BAB, d10 HD, 2+Int Skills, Good Fort save. The only differences between it and the Fighter are the skill list at this point.
All Simple and Martial weapons, all armor, no shields. This is where the deviation begins.
Restricted to any Lawful alignment. A bit of the Monk is mixed in here, but just for seasoning.
Daisho Proficiency gives him a free MWK Bastard Sword and a MWK Shortsword at 1st level. So it's got a feature similar to the Aristocrat in the DMG. The Fighter can use a Bastard Sword two-handed and be proficient with it, or can just use a Greatsword. The benefits of the MWK quality can be replicated partially via Weapon Focus, but the GP value and enchantment-compatibility cannot.
Gains TWFing at 2nd level, but only when using his Daisho. The Ranger gets the same thing, but can use it with any weapon. The Fighter could have just taken the feat the hard way and still gotten a better version of it. Note that the Samurai does not gain Spellcasting, unlike the Ranger (and there are spells that the Ranger can use to boost his TWFing).
Can Smite anything, but only 4/day at 20th level, and can't do so until 3rd level. The Paladin has been smiting 1/day for 2 levels by now, and could have done so against almost half of the enemies in the game (most creatures listed in the various MMs and premade encounters have a default alignment of Evil). However, he went from needing Dex (for TWFing) to needing Cha (if he plans on using this at all). So he's traded one requisite stat for another. Again, does not gain Spellcasting like the Paladin does, and cannot make use of the Paladin's spells that assist Smiting.
Gains Quickdraw at 5th level, but only for his Daisho. The Fighter could have bought it with a feat or used a Least Augment Crystal for the same effect, but better and significantly sooner.
He gets a +4 bonus to Intimidate, and can use the Demoralize option of the skill. Note that this is an error, as you can use the Demoralize ability untrained. In other words, this is .33 times better than Skill Focus, but it is gained at 6th level. This same bonus can be obtained via Shape Soulmeld, a feat the Fighter could have taken as early as 1st level.
He gets Improved Initiative at 8th level. While it is a nice feat in and of itself, it could have been taken at 1st level. If you all ready had it, you do not gain an additional benefit. The only use for this ability is the DCFS.
He can Demoralize all enemies in 30ft at 10th level. The Fighter gained an ACF that does the same thing, and you can gain Frightful Presence via a feat in the Draconomicon.
Gains Improved TWFing at 11th level. The Ranger has had ITWF for 5 levels now, and the Fighter could have taken it at any point between 6th and 10th. Both of those classes can use it with any weapons they desire, but the Samurai is still restricted to his Daisho. Hell, the Gloves of the Balanced Hand (MiC) can give you this feat if you had TWFing, and those can be bought starting at 4th level.
He can use his Staredown as a Move action at 14th level. There is a magic item with the same effect. It is a +1 Armor ability. It is available starting at 4th level, a full 10 levels earlier than this.
Gains Greater TWFing at 16th level. The Ranger again has had it for 5 levels, and the Fighter can take it at any point between 11th level and 16th level. Again, the Samurai can't use it with anything but his Daisho.
Gains Frightful Presence at 20th level. Take a look at the CR20s out there. Only the Pit Fiend has less than 19 HD. Do you really think being Shaken is that detrimental to a Pit Fiend?



The class features of the CW Samurai read like a laundry list written by a trash bag.

[NineThePuma]

So it sucks because of Monk Syndrom, basically? Or it sucks cause other things do it better?

[tyckspoon]

So it sucks because of Monk Syndrom, basically? Or it sucks cause other things do it better?

Think of it this way:
Take a Fighter.
Pre-select all of his feats, thus completely defeating the point of a Fighter.
Make sure you select *bad* feats.

Samurai!

And that's why it sucks.

[Big Fau]

So it sucks because of Monk Syndrom, basically? Or it sucks cause other things do it better?

A bit of Monk Syndrome is mixed in, but the fact that Ranger 12 or Fighter 12 does virtually everything the class tries to accomplish in 20 levels is the real problem.

It tries to emulate Miyamoto Musashi's legendary fighting style, but failed drastically (similarly to how the Monk is a wannabe version of several Bruce Lee characters). The developers forgot that there are two classes in Core capable of doing exactly that, but much faster and with a stronger focus on those abilities.

Then there's the whole problem of pure TWFing being a bad idea unless you have an extra damage source to go with it, something the CW Samurai lacks.

The class isn't broken, but literally every ability it has can be obtained elsewhere, and much faster than when this class gives it to you. JaronK has said that the CW Samurai is the worst class ever designed because of this (the Truenamer's mechanic is broken, not the class itself).

[Yora]

Anything a samurai can do, a fighter can do as well. But better and sooner, and a fighter can cherry pick only the good parts while staying away from the bad parts and take something else instead.
The only thing a Samurai can do is staring at people angrily.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

He can Demoralize all enemies in 30ft at 10th level. The Fighter gained an ACF that does the same thing, and you can gain Frightful Presence via a feat in the Draconomicon.



The class features of the CW Samurai read like a laundry list written by a trash bag.

A couple of nitpicks...

No, the Fighter did not get mass staredown. They might be able to Demoralize as a Swift action (Zhent), but not the mass version. They might get Never Outnumbered skill trick, but a) not that much sooner, and b) only 1/encounter. Mass Staredown is unlimited use. It's also significantly better than Frightful Presence, because it affects things with higher HD than you.

Mass Staredown is the one thing in the entire class which does not suck, and is not easy to duplicate elsewhere. Everything else, granted, sucks. But this is the one diamond in the (*VERY*) rough.

Want to fix Samurai? Start over with a Warblade, and make Mass Staredown a [Fighter] feat. Done.

[onemorelurker]

So it sucks because of Monk Syndrom, basically? Or it sucks cause other things do it better?

Not only because other things do it better, but because other things that are not themselves very good do it better. Any class that can be easily outshined by a straight fighter is not a very good class.

[NineThePuma]

True. I'll need to pick on some things and figure some stuff out.