[PF] Psionic blasting?

[jaybird]

So I've never had any experience with psionics, and my GM is opening up psionics for our new Pathfinder game. Does anyone have any general advice on how well psionic blasting works? I like the look of the Wilder, as I'm looking to play a pyromaniac (Nuclear Dan-style character, if anyone reads AGC).

[Lateral]

They're very good at it; just as a base, they're probably more suited to it than Arcane casters, especially with PF lacking the best blasting metamagics other than Empower and lacking most metamagic reducers as well. Wilders do make good blasters, as do Kineticists- it all depends on how you want to go about it. Here's some required reading. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=182797)

[jaybird]

They're very good at it; just as a base, they're probably more suited to it than Arcane casters, especially with PF lacking the best blasting metamagics other than Empower and lacking most metamagic reducers as well. Wilders do make good blasters, as do Kineticists- it all depends on how you want to go about it. Here's some required reading. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=182797)

Thanks!

Interesting...Energy Missile is a 2nd level power that does 3d6 to 5 targets for 3 power points? Am I missing something here, or is it really that good...Also, Student's Surge really only gives Dazzled as a penalty? That doesn't even affect the enemy's saves.

[Jeraa]

Thanks!

Interesting...Energy Missile is a 2nd level power that does 3d6 to 5 targets for 3 power points? Am I missing something here, or is it really that good.

Its limited to kineticists only, and has a save for half. Its also limited to a small area - no two targets can be farther than 15' from each other. Most other abilities would have that at 30'. But yeah - it still seems to be a decent power. But thats what kineticists do - they are blasters. They need good blasting powers.

[Lateral]

Interesting...Energy Missile is a 2nd level power that does 3d6 to 5 targets for 3 power points? Am I missing something here, or is it really that good...Also, Student's Surge really only gives Dazzled as a penalty? That doesn't even affect the enemy's saves.
It's one of the better blaster powers, yes. It's Kineticist-only, though, so you'd need to pick it up with Expanded Knowledge as a Wilder. (I wouldn't bother, personally- it's good, but not so good that you need to burn a precious Expanded Knowledge on it once you already have 3rd level powers.)

[Fax Celestis]

Nuclear Dan makes good use of the wilder, and actually I think his build is posted in the comic itself. However, if it were me, I'd go with the psion as a base instead of the wilder, as your increased powers known allows you to do something other than blast (you know, for those times when you're not in combat). Anarchic Initiate's cool, Thrallherd's neat (both of Dan's PrCs), but honestly you could do fine just staying in psion. If you reaaaaally want to PrC out, I highly recommend the Psicrystal Imprinter (from the upcoming Psionics Expanded book: if you preorder, you get early access to some material, including this PrC). 9/10 manifesting, gives you Improved Psicrystal four times, turns your psicrystal into a power stone, lets you do some metapsi tricks with your psicrystal (free empower, twin, or extend depending on your level, for turning a manifestation from a standard to a full-round), astral seed's your psicrystal, and makes your psicrystal into a cognizance crystal and gives it a bonus psionic feat and its own psionic focus.

It's a really neat PrC and goes well for pretty much any primarily manifesting psionic class.

[jaybird]

Jeraa, Lateral - okay, yeah. I suppose needing to use Expanded Knowledge as a Wilder puts a damper on it. What blast powers do you guys recommend, then?

FC - unfortunately, Anarchic Initiate isn't in Pathfinder as far as I can tell, and I like the Wilder thematically as a pyromaniac more.

Metapsionic feats look interesting in a very important way compared to metamagic...Empower Power (stupid name IMO, but sure) gives +50% dice for 2 PP, so past a certain point it's actually more efficient to metapower up a spell then to just stack more Augment on. For example, Energy Bolt can either give me 9d6 damage for 9 PP, or 6d6+3d6 for 8 PP, and the returns only get better from there. 12d6 damage would cost 12 PP while 8d6+4d6 costs 10 PP...then add Wild Surge :smalleek:

[Lateral]

Remember, though, augmentations don't require you to expend psionic focus. Metapsionics do.

[jaybird]

Remember, though, augmentations don't require you to expend psionic focus. Metapsionics do.

Isn't there a feat to make it a free action, though?

[Lateral]

Psionic Meditation? Move action.

[Rubik]

Also, unless you use Metapower, every power point you're using for metapsionics is one you can't use for augmenting the DC.

Also, according to the 3.5 rules, you can use the same metapsionic feat more than once. It's just that some (such as Maximized and Quicken) don't do anything extra if you do. Empower, however...

[jaybird]

Psionic Meditation? Move action.

Ah. I see. Still better then standard, though. Also, what powers do you guys recommend? Bolt, Burst, Ray, and Stun seem to be the most practical ones for a Wilder blaster, and out of those, Burst and Stun look the best.

[Rubik]

Ah. I see. Still better then standard, though. Also, what powers do you guys recommend? Bolt, Burst, Ray, and Stun seem to be the most practical ones for a Wilder blaster, and out of those, Burst and Stun look the best.You shouldn't take too many blasting powers. They're mostly redundant.

Damage is damage is damage, after all.

[jaybird]

You shouldn't take too many blasting powers. They're mostly redundant.

Damage is damage is damage, after all.

True, but our GM has a penchant for encounters very, very different from the usual "big monster, kill it" fare. Once (at 5th level) we got an 8th level barbarian with a 4-5 (not sure, it ate Fireball before being able to really do anything) level bard and a whole mob of 1-2 level (again with the Fireball) warriors, and we've had to clear houses a few times, so I'm interested in two blasts with different properties, and it seems that Stun and Burst should fit the bill.

[Lateral]

Take Energy Ray, too. It's your basic, single-target, no-save damage/utility power, and it's something you definitely want.

[Fax Celestis]

FC - unfortunately, Anarchic Initiate isn't in Pathfinder as far as I can tell, and I like the Wilder thematically as a pyromaniac more.

No, but it is usable with minimal updating.


Take Energy Ray, too. It's your basic, single-target, no-save damage/utility power, and it's something you definitely want.

I'd go with missile over ray, but ray is deliciously low level.

[Lateral]

I'd go with missile over ray, but ray is deliciously low level.

You'll want both. The point of the Ray is that, if you're facing a boss or some other single enemy, you always have a power that you can dump damage into and not grant any save at all. Plus, it's a great utility power- 1 power point for 1d6-1 of sonic damage that ignores hardness has a whole lot of uses.

[Dusk Eclipse]

One of the advantages psions have in blasting over Wizards is the fact that they can choose the type of energy they want to use at a moments notice, so take that into account.

[Lateral]

One of the advantages psions have in blasting over Wizards is the fact that they can choose the type of energy they want to use at a moments notice, so take that into account.

Pathfinder eliminates that for non-Kineticists, I think. (One good reason to go Kineticist instead of Wilder.) You can still choose an active energy type, but it's no longer on the fly.

[jaybird]

Unfortunately, my GM is pretty insistent on this game being PF material only (meaning SRD stuff), so Anarchic Initiate is right out. Pity.

Regarding Kineticist - certainly interested, but I'd rather have Wild Surge, IMO. Plus, anything worth targeting a specific elemental weakness for is also worth WS for, and that will let me fire any element at will anyways.

Considering the Energy line of powers...several of them look great, almost certainly more then I'll be able to take and still have some of the "must-have" powers. IMO, any more then two blasts is excessive - I'm seriously considering Stun as quite a good one. Does anyone have other suggestions?

[Psyren]

Pathfinder eliminates that for non-Kineticists, I think. (One good reason to go Kineticist instead of Wilder.) You can still choose an active energy type, but it's no longer on the fly.

Actually, PF Wilders can change their energy type on the fly whenever they surge. So they are roughly on par with Kineticists as far as blasting goes, and can pump out huge amounts of damage.

In addition, when facing enemies with high PR or even Power Immunity, they have their Surge Bolt to fall back on (a supernatural ability.)


Finally, Metamind (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/psionic-prestige-classes/metamind) no longer totally sucks and is a great PrC choice for Kineticists. Ammunition galore, you still get 9ths, and Font of Power lets you pump out truly ridiculous amounts of damage every round while its active.

For Wilders though I would stay in the base class (Wilder 20) since Wild/Perfect Surge are roughly on par with Font of Power.



The best surges are Student, Artificer and Warrior.

[jaybird]

Okay, so as a Wilder, I would know 5 powers at 8th level, highest level power being 4th?

4th level power: Fold Space
3rd level power: Dispel Psionics (P-M transparency in full effect)
2nd level power: Swarm of Crystals
1st level powers: Energy Ray, Mind Thrust

I plan on taking Expanded Knowledge to grab Energy Ball as soon as I can - it's just too good, Pathfinder gives you more feats, and I'll likely be going Human for yet another feat.

As for Surges, I definitely plan on taking Student's Surge, with the crystal that gives me +2 to Initiative.

[Rubik]

If you can't change the energy types, don't bother with blasting. It's not worth it. That's about the only reason why psionics is decent at blasting.

I'd go with shaper instead. They make decent blasters and have all sorts of awesome utility.

[Psyren]

Considering the Energy line of powers...several of them look great, almost certainly more then I'll be able to take and still have some of the "must-have" powers. IMO, any more then two blasts is excessive - I'm seriously considering Stun as quite a good one. Does anyone have other suggestions?

Stun is an excellent choice; not only because it can target all three saves (without being mind-affecting, no less), but also because it's an area spell, meaning you can blast swarms with it.

I would go with either Energy Missile or Energy Push for your third. Push is the best as it also gives you breathing room but you may need to work out with your DM exactly how it works - is it a ray, or a targeted spell? Meanwhile, Energy Missile is great when you're up against something with high AC and saves.


Secondly, I would drop Mind Thrust. If you can land a mind-affecting power on someone, Deja Vu and Telepathic Lash are much better choices at that level because they also protect you. Failing that, just grab something directly protective like Vigor or Inertial Armor.


Finally, if you're going Wilder, consider Elan or Maenad rather than Human.

Maenads get a nice boost to sonic powers - this a great choice for your "resting" energy type, since so few monsters resist it and it can be used to wreck up objects by ignoring their hardness - say, going all banshee on a door to get rid of it, or an ogre's club.

Elans, meanwhile, get some great defensive racials that can save you powers known, and give you a use for your immediate action at low levels to boot.

Note also that all the psionic classes effectively get a bonus feat (i.e. Psionic Talent) on top of their regular racial goodies.


If you can't change the energy types, don't bother with blasting. It's not worth it. That's about the only reason why psionics is decent at blasting.

Again, both Wilders and Kineticists can change energy types on the fly. PF simply altered the dynamic so that those two would blast better than the others.

Every other manifester in PF can also change their type, but only whenever they regain focus.

[jaybird]

Psyren:

Hmm...there's a lot of nice blasting spells, and not enough slots for them all. I have an Oracle and Witch in my party, so battlefield control is well in hand, and I don't really need to worry about anything more then rolling fistfuls of pain. Dispel Psionics is there for Wild Surge fun.

IMO, Energy Missile and Energy Stun do effectively the same thing, except one trades a bit of damage for a stun effect. Stun is lower level, so I'm inclined towards that. Swarm of Crystals is nice because it's Save No SR/PR No, just eat damage. Energy Ray is just great when combined with Split Psionic Ray which I'll be taking. In this case, it looks like I'll have to take Expanded Knowledge for Stun...unless I've misinterpreted the Wilder power chart? I'm not sure if I'll be taking Ball, thoughts on that?

Mind Thrust I like because it can instantly drop anyone with a poor Will. At level 8 with 24 CHA, a Wild Surge Mind Thrust should do 11d10 damage with a DC 23 Will to negate - not a bad cannon IMO.

Thanks for reminding me of the psionic races, I forgot about them. Switching to Elan.

Potential Feat list:
1: Psionic Talent, Improved Initiative
3: Overchannel
5: Empower Power/Split Psionic Ray (not sure here)
7: Expanded Knowledge: Energy Stun

How worth it is Overchannel?

[Rubik]

How worth it is Overchannel?Generally not, in a wilder build. You have wild surge, and unless PF changed it, they don't stack.

Of course, if you want a ML boost without any fear of enervation, it's there if you want it. But I'd go for something else first, since you've got one form of ML boosting.

[jaybird]

Generally not, in a wilder build. You have wild surge, and unless PF changed it, they don't stack.

Of course, if you want a ML boost without any fear of enervation, it's there if you want it. But I'd go for something else first, since you've got one form of ML boosting.

Hmm, it doesn't look like it doesn't stack with Wild Surge...

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/feats/overchannel-psionic

[Rubik]

Hmm, it doesn't look like it doesn't stack with Wild Surge...

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/feats/overchannel-psionic

Except the wilder entry states:

She cannot use the Overchannel psionic feat and invoke her wild surge at the same time.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/wilder#TOC-Wild-Surge-Su-

[jaybird]

Except the wilder entry states:


http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/wilder#TOC-Wild-Surge-Su-

Oops. Thanks.

Potential Feat list (updated):
1: Psionic Talent, Improved Initiative
3: Split Psionic Ray
5: Empower Power
7: Expanded Knowledge: Energy Stun

Power list:
4th level power: Fold Space
3rd level power: Dispel Psionics
2nd level power: Swarm of Crystals, Energy Stun
1st level powers: Energy Ray, Mind Thrust

How about that? One option is to drop Swarm of Crystals and instead get EK: Energy Missile.

[Psyren]

Rather than Energy Missile, you seem lacking in Force damage; I'd go for Concussion Blast (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/psionic-powers/c/concussion-blast) instead. With this power you can wreck Shadows and other incorporeal/ethereal nasties, as well as break down doors and smash chests from afar. You can even use it to peacefully knock out anybody you want to take prisoner while still letting you ladle on the pain.

As a general tip as well, remember "the bases" when you build a blaster. These were printed in Saeomon's Psion Handbook:



Ranged attack roll
Melee attack roll
Targets Fortitude Save
Targets Reflex Save
Targets Will Save
Allows no Save
Not Subject to Spell Resistance or Power Resistance (SR/PR)
Area of Effect (for fighting Swarms)
Force Effect (for fighting Incorporeal/Ethereal creatures)
Effective against Anti Magic Field/Null Psionics Field
Effective against Globe of Invulnerability


You have most of them covered; melee attack roll isn't necessary for you, and you don't have to worry about that last one (yet.) But incorporeal can quickly become a problem without force damage.

[Novawurmson]

Tripping Power is beautiful as long as you can regain psionic focus as a move action. A Psion in the group I DM was an amazing battlefield controller even with just Tripping Energy Pushes. Did a fair bit of damage, too.

[jaybird]

Rather than Energy Missile, you seem lacking in Force damage; I'd go for Concussion Blast (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/psionic-powers/c/concussion-blast) instead. With this power you can wreck Shadows and other incorporeal/ethereal nasties, as well as break down doors and smash chests from afar. You can even use it to peacefully knock out anybody you want to take prisoner while still letting you ladle on the pain.

As a general tip as well, remember "the bases" when you build a blaster. These were printed in Saeomon's Psion Handbook:



You have most of them covered; melee attack roll isn't necessary for you, and you don't have to worry about that last one (yet.) But incorporeal can quickly become a problem without force damage.

Hmm, okay. I think I'll actually replace Swarm of Crystals with Concussion Blast, then, as the only difference is that Concussion Blast is PR Yes, and I'm too strapped for powers to really manage it all together.


Feat list:
1: Psionic Talent, Improved Initiative
3: Empower Power
5: Psionic Meditation
7: Expanded Knowledge: Energy Stun

Power list:
4th level power: Fold Space
3rd level power: Dispel Psionics
2nd level power: Concussion Blast, Energy Stun
1st level powers: Energy Ray, Mind Thrust

I think at this point the question is - do I take Energy Stun or Energy Missile with my level 7 Expanded Knowledge? I'm thinking Energy Missile right now, because Will is already covered with Mind Thrust better then any Energy-line spell could ever cover it.