Are we ok? (party balance question)

[kiergon]

Hey there, we are about to start a 3.5 campaign and wanted to make a point with out DM. He says clerics can only be semi good front line fighters and are mostly healers and buffers, we as players told him we accepted the challenge and so we proceed to create a full cleric party.
Here is our group...we were allowed pretty much all of 3.5 books, if we can restrain ourselves from using heavy cheese, so probably we won{t use DMM. We also were allowed to have a +1 LA race. 38 point buy system or roll. Most of us used the points a couple of guys felt lucky and rolled, one got great rolls.

Dragonwrought Kobold Cleric, with kobold and trickery domains...this guy will be our thief/skill monkey. Has high int and cha...low str. highish wis.

Our meatshield, a Duergar cleric with War and Earth domains. Very high con, good str and wis. bad cha. He uses a greathorn minotaur hammer.

Our Wizard a Shadar Kai cleric with magic and travel domains. very high stats all around except for con and str.

our archer an half elf cleric with war and elf domains. very high dex and good wis.

And me, a fire elf cleric with fire and sun domains. Im the healer and undead bane of our group.




So what do you guys think, do we have a chance in a campaign without a wizard, rogue or fighter?

[sonofzeal]

Four White Mages? It'd never work!



....I mean, yeah, you'll be fine. Just make sure to coordinate spell lists so there isn't too much redundancy, and maybe PrC off in different directions. The Duergar might look at PrC Pally followed by other Pally PrCs that advance casting, and you might want to look at a refluffed RSoP. You get the drift.

[NOhara24]

He says clerics can only be semi good front line fighters and are mostly healers and buffers.

I feel sorry for your DM. He has NO idea what he's getting himself in to.

[Hiro Protagonest]

No CC for da kobold?

[Ernir]

All-Cleric is just about as good as you can get for a single-class party, I think.

Pick smart spells, and you'll be more than fine.

[Tvtyrant]

So what do you guys think, do we have a chance in a campaign without a wizard, rogue Factotum or fighter Warblade?

Fixed that for you.

[Aegis013]

Should be awesome. Maybe grab DMM: Chain spell metamagic. Shooting a buff across your whole team can save a bunch of actions. I'm sure you can find some buffs that everybody would want.

[elvengunner69]

Just imagine if you had a Druid too...your awesomeness would be even more awesome.

:elan:

Actually it's an interesting idea - my group tends to be Cleric heavy and they are tough lot to slow down so I'm guessing you guys will probably rock.

[Rixx]

So what do you guys think, do we have a chance in a campaign without a wizard magic user, rogue Factotum thief or fighter Warblade fighting man?Fixed that for you.

Fixed that for you :D

[Mnemnosyne]

With that many clerics in the party, buffs shouldn't be an issue even without DMM persisting anything. Everyone can keep a buff or two ready along with the spells for their particular role, and in each combat you can buff. DMM chain, as was suggested, is excellent for this. Also excellent for hitting everyone's armor with chained magic vestment, and weapons with chained magic weapon.

I would also recommend at least one of the other clerics be Neutral and take Rebuking/Inflicting rather than Turning/Cures, just so he can bust out with a swarm of undead minions if the situation calls for lots of disposable mooks.

One or more of you may want to go Cloistered Cleric instead, if only for the 6+int skill points instead of 2+int, and the free Knowledge domain. Alternately (or even in combination with this), the Jack of All Trades feat makes all skills trained, after which you can use Guidance of the Avatar to pop a +20 bonus on important skill rolls (Guidance of the Avatar can be used on any skill roll, but if you're not trained the +20 doesn't matter - you still can't even attempt certain rolls).

[sonofzeal]

With that many clerics in the party, buffs shouldn't be an issue even without DMM persisting anything. Everyone can keep a buff or two ready along with the spells for their particular role, and in each combat you can buff. DMM chain, as was suggested, is excellent for this. Also excellent for hitting everyone's armor with chained magic vestment, and weapons with chained magic weapon.

I would also recommend at least one of the other clerics be Neutral and take Rebuking/Inflicting rather than Turning/Cures, just so he can bust out with a swarm of undead minions if the situation calls for lots of disposable mooks.

One or more of you may want to go Cloistered Cleric instead, if only for the 6+int skill points instead of 2+int, and the free Knowledge domain. Alternately (or even in combination with this), the Jack of All Trades feat makes all skills trained, after which you can use Guidance of the Avatar to pop a +20 bonus on important skill rolls (Guidance of the Avatar can be used on any skill roll, but if you're not trained the +20 doesn't matter - you still can't even attempt certain rolls).
Wieldskill is only +10, but lasts longer and counts as trained. It can also be used to gain a proficiency, if that's more important.

[TroubleBrewing]

You'll be fine.

Honestly, though Wizard is probably stronger than Cleric individually, I really do believe that Team Cleric gets better results than Team Wizard.

Not to mention it's just more fun to have four different builds, rather than four Batman builds.

[Gwendol]

I see you deviated from the all *Dwarven* cleric team... still, no biggie :smallwink:

[DrDeth]

Dragonwrought Kobold Cleric, with kobold and trickery domains...this guy will be our thief/skill monkey. Has high int and cha...low str. highish wis.

Our meatshield, a Duergar cleric with War and Earth domains. Very high con, good str and wis. bad cha. He uses a greathorn minotaur hammer.

Our Wizard a Shadar Kai cleric with magic and travel domains. very high stats all around except for con and str.

our archer an half elf cleric with war and elf domains. very high dex and good wis.

And me, a fire elf cleric with fire and sun domains. Im the healer and undead bane of our group.





Not enough skill points. Although a Cleric with kobold and trickery domains is often trotted out as a way to make the Cleric into a skillmonkey, it simply does not have enough skill points. In certain campaigns, where you don’t face dungeons crammed full of Gygaxian traps, it could work.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Great Wyrm Dragonwrought kobold Cloistered cleric with trickery and Kobold domain is a perfectly good skill monkey, those +3 to mental stats are pretty good for that role and there are a lot of spells that can help with that

Example: Guidance of the Avatar (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/sb/sb20010504a) for those pesky skill rolls you absolutely have to pass and since it is a level 2 spell without any CL based effect you can wand it without problem :smallwink:

[Little Brother]

Dragonwrought Kobold Cleric, with kobold and trickery domains...this guy will be our thief/skill monkey. Has high int and cha...low str. highish wis.

Our meatshield, a Duergar cleric with War and Earth domains. Very high con, good str and wis. bad cha. He uses a greathorn minotaur hammer.

Our Wizard a Shadar Kai cleric with magic and travel domains. very high stats all around except for con and str.

our archer an half elf cleric with war and elf domains. very high dex and good wis.

And me, a fire elf cleric with fire and sun domains. Im the healer and undead bane of our group.Clerics are absurd, you'll be fine. Make sure that Kobold is both Venerable and is a Cloistered Cleric.

I see you deviated from the all *Dwarven* cleric team... still, no biggie :smallwink:Sad. No Dwarven Waraxe, nor someone thinking Dwarves are crazy...:smalltongue:

Not enough skill points. Although a Cleric with kobold and trickery domains is often trotted out as a way to make the Cleric into a skillmonkey, it simply does not have enough skill points. In certain campaigns, where you don’t face dungeons crammed full of Gygaxian traps, it could work.Wieldskill? Divine Insight? Guidance of the Avatar? Why, yes, I do like getting a +38 skill check on things I am not trained in. Do you?

Also, instant locksmith and Detect Traps make Rogues cry.

[Human Paragon 3]

Skill monkey cleric: Grab Open Minded for more skill points.

[Coidzor]

Not enough skill points. Although a Cleric with kobold and trickery domains is often trotted out as a way to make the Cleric into a skillmonkey, it simply does not have enough skill points.

Cloistered (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVariantCloistere dCleric) clerics can, yes.

Otherwise you have to spend spells on it or wand it. If only there was a divine equivalent of eternal wands.

[DrDeth]

Clerics are absurd, you'll be fine. Make sure that Kobold is both Venerable and is a Cloistered Cleric.
Sad. No Dwarven Waraxe, nor someone thinking Dwarves are crazy...:smalltongue:
Wieldskill? Divine Insight? Guidance of the Avatar? Why, yes, I do like getting a +38 skill check on things I am not trained in. Do you?

Also, instant locksmith and Detect Traps make Rogues cry.

Sure that’s great, but not for all day long, in dungeons, checking every door, every chest , every square of long corridors.

Now, if Cloistered Cleric is allowed, it can work.

[Little Brother]

Sure that’s great, but not for all day long, in dungeons, checking every door, every chest , every square of long corridors.

Now, if Cloistered Cleric is allowed, it can work.Uh, how many clerics are there in the party? Plus, why wouldn't they train search, since, at level 10, they have a 35+ranks/stats/items?

[kiergon]

thanks guys.

Ive already emailed my kobold buddy to be a Cloistered cleric, isntead of a normal cleric. And yes he is venerable.

We have 2 turners and 2 rebukers in our team, the duergar and me turn, and the kobold and half elf rebuke, Im not sure about the other one...

any tips for our wizardlike cleric?, I think our archer and the duergar will do a great job in fights, and I should be good too. And between me and the duergar we can turn or rebuke all elemental creatures too.

and yes a druid would kick ass with us, but we wanted to goo all cleric route. Just to prove a point. And I think it will be fun, especially when roleplaying among ourselves..."Im the firelord, servant of the flame of Agni!!!!", "bah, agni can kiss Geb rocky behind", "Oberon is way better"..."you guys are all wrong, the serpent is the master of all that is magic, that includes your gods btw", "meh, the serpent, Io kicks any snake slithering hole any day of the weak, and twice on Thor´s Day".

And yes, we already agreed it will never escalate much beyond that point.

[Gullintanni]

thanks guys.
any tips for our wizardlike cleric?, I think our archer and the duergar will do a great job in fights, and I should be good too. And between me and the duergar we can turn or rebuke all elemental creatures too.


Your Wizard Cloistered Cleric needs the following:

1) Divine Magician - Allows you to swap a domain for 1 Divination, Abjuration or Necromancy off the Wizard spell list per domain level. Make sure to pick up Enervation at level 4, and have fun level draining enemies with no save. Trade out the free Knowledge domain you get from Cloistered Cleric for this.

2) Church Inquisitor PrC + Divine Defiance (FCII) for immediate action counterspells. This allows you to make your counterspells with +4 to Dispel checks when using Dispel Magic to counterspell (note that this breaks the normal +10 caster level limit on Dispel Magic, giving you a +14 max Dispel check when counterspelling).

3) Spontaneous Domain Casting ACF + Magic Domain, which allows you to trade spontaneous heals/inflicts for spontaneous access to one domain. Pick the Magic domain, which lets you spontaneously fire off Dispel Magics to counter everything. Synergizes well with Divine Defiance, and the +4 to dispel checks your getting from dipping Church Inquisitor.

4) The Magic domain. So good it needs its own bullet point, you can activate items with an arcane trigger component as a Wizard = to 1/2 your cleric level (Minimum 1). This means you can activate scrolls without having to UMD, and you can activate any level of divine or arcane wand ever. This is UMD on crack.

5) If you can get access to the Spell domain AND the Magic domain, then you get access to Anyspell and Greater Anyspell. Have fun. Cast everything, ever.

Stack all of this on one character, and you've got a cleric who will deny other spellcasters access to their casting pretty reliably, strong access to necromancy, divination and abjuration options, and all the magic items that wizards have come to know and love. Try a wand of Alter Self, just for fun.

Divine Metamagic Quicken, Fell Drain, and Persist are all icing on the cake, and are pretty short on cheese (Persist notwithstanding). Have fun. :smallwink:

[Tyndmyr]

Hey there, we are about to start a 3.5 campaign and wanted to make a point with out DM. He says clerics can only be semi good front line fighters and are mostly healers and buffers, we as players told him we accepted the challenge and so we proceed to create a full cleric party.

So what do you guys think, do we have a chance in a campaign without a wizard, rogue or fighter?

Short answer: Yes.
Long answer: Hell yes.

For maximum awesomeness, make sure everyone is doing a different kind of crazy. Yknow, someone with a spiked chain, someone rocking a fullblade, etc, etc. DMM on say, one. Knowledge devotion on another. Ignore the healer role entirely. I mean, seriously, anyone CAN heal, if they so wish, so emergencies are fairly well covered, but there's no real call to specialize in it.

BaB, etc is mostly handled by a first round or prebattle buff each...after one round, you should be rocking at/above melee specialist level. Make sure to prepare all manner of different things, so stacking wild buffs is just amusing.

[Mnemnosyne]

For the wizard cleric, you could change him into a gnome and take shadowcraft mage. I think some domain trickery might be needed to qualify, but it's possible, and shadowcraft mage advances spellcasting classes, not just arcane ones.

Alternately, if you don't want to do that due to race issues or simply wanting to avoid the idea that you 'cheated' and got what's basically a real wizard in the party...Dweomerkeeper is a good one for a wizard-like cleric, just use Alternate Source Spell or Southern Magician to count as casting arcane spells to qualify. Also, consider the Divine Magician ACF. Pick one spell of each level and 'create your own domain' from the abjuration, divination, and necromancy schools. May not be worth it since those are kinda meh schools, though. Another possibility is going Malconvoker and making use of those easier/cheaper summons and planar binding. Planar bind things that have spells you need but don't have direct access to.

Additional consideration: One or more of you should be a cleric of no deity, unless you're in a world where that doesn't work. This allows you to justify as many domains as possible as being accessible to you. Then, make use of the Substitute Domain spell as needed to swap to any domain you've managed to justify as being part of your ideal. Combine this with the Spontaneous Domains feat and you can cast Substitute Domain, then immediately spontaneously cast the spell you need.

[Little Brother]

4) The Magic domain. So good it needs its own bullet point, you can activate items with an arcane trigger component as a Wizard = to 1/2 your cleric level (Minimum 1). This means you can activate scrolls without having to UMD, and you can activate any level of divine or arcane wand ever. This is UMD on crack.If he's running magic domain, he might as well use Anyspell(Or nab Southern Magician) to jump into Dweomer Keeper.

And your Wizardy-cleric could be made into a good Theurge, early entry stuffs.

What level is this party, by the way? This matters a lot.

EDIT: And this is what I get for going for lunch without posting...

[Gullintanni]

Alternately, if you don't want to do that due to race issues or simply wanting to avoid the idea that you 'cheated' and got what's basically a real wizard in the party...Dweomerkeeper is a good one for a wizard-like cleric, just use Alternate Source Spell or Southern Magician to count as casting arcane spells to qualify.

This is another great idea that's high on power but low on cheese, and you can do it without missing out on any of my earlier suggestions. Stack this all on the same character for all over the board winning.

[DoctorGlock]

your wizard cleric might want to consider 4 levels in prestige paladin for sword of the arcane order, but that might violate the spirit of what you are trying to do.

[kiergon]

Again, many thanks...

Our kobold thief is indeed going the CC way...our wizard hasn´t answered about being a CC, but I think he is staying as a Shadar Kai, in our world they are the shadow elves. There are 3 groups of evil elves, the CE followed Lolth (drow) nothing fancy there...the LE, followed the Leviathan (a lord of the nine in our campaign setting) and became abyssal elves, they are the ancestors of the Sahuagin. The NE, decided to merge their souls with the plane of shadow, and became the Shadar Kai. And Shadar Kai have kick ass stats, they also have a major drawback...anyway, he won´t change his race to Gnome. He is deciding if he will go the CC way...hopefully he will.

Any suggestion for me, the Fire Elf cleric? I could change the race, but want to stay thematically as a fire race, I can use any +1 LA race. Btw...don´t have to use one, but can do it.Sun and Fire Domains, I know they are not optimal, but anything fire related that I could use instead, I do want to stay with the Fire motif, a light pyromaniac who believes that Fire cleanses everything.

Btw, keep up with your suggestions, they kick #$&.