Melee Optimization for Dummies? (Help please)

[Jaidee Por Kwai]

Alright, so here's the deal. I'm in a group playing 3.5 D&D; standard type group, so low to no real optimization. Not even the DM really knows anything about optimization, and I only know what little I've learned from a friend who frequents this forum.

Enter the dilemma: the DM does not like me. It's some stupid drama issue involving some girl that I think he likes who's interested in me, crap that should've been left behind when we graduated high school. He usually seems like a nice guy, but oddly my characters seem to get targeted by all the baddies. I've lost a character every other session, or so it seems, and I'm getting fairly tired of it. Seeing as he hasn't confronted me directly, I'm not the type to call him out or anything...

So enter my question, now that you've all heard my sob story. How should I go about making my next character so that a) I don't get killed anywhere near as easily and b) I'm able to kill off all the horribly evil things that seem inexplicably bent on my destruction with significantly more efficiency. I play a fighter-type, or rather I do all the straightforward killing of things with a heavy object/sword. I originally started with a ranger, but after getting mobbed and killed I started experimenting with fighters for their heavier armour and barbarians for their heavy hit points but found that nothing was really quite enough. I don't get killed every session or anything, but I take the vast majority of the damage and have lost at least three characters now.

Knowing as little as I do about optimization, I'm not sure whether you need to know how I usually get killed or otherwise pwned but in case it helps I'm almost always flanked. Often I'm subjected to trips and disarms and stuff as well, which usually don't work but when they do that's just another nice thing that I no longer have. Basically, I need a character that can handle the equivalent of a CR or two higher encounter that his level each encounter he faces, can take people/monsters flanking him often (and the Gods forbid, the eight-square total flanking package) and doesn't take much damage (and/or can handle it when he does).

Oh, and we're at level 8 now, when I go back with my fresh-off-the-press character. The ability score array is 16, 15, 14, 13, 12, 10.

[Flickerdart]

Are you sure melee is what you want to do? Spellcasters have the best defenses from very early on - even the basic Psicrystal + Vigor + Share Pain trick gives you a great buffer against hit point damage.

Then there are ways to become immune to hit point damage altogether (Trollblooded + immunity to acid + immunity to fire + immunity to non-lethal damage being the fastest way).

You could try to play an actual tank. Since pulling aggro isn't a problem for you, turtling suddenly becomes a valid strategy. There are many spells that hurt people trying to attack you, and two feats (Karmic Strike and Robilar's Gambit) that let you counter-attack people attacking you for free. You'll be taking damage, but dealing it as well, and the best defense in 3.5 is usually a good offense.

[Jaidee Por Kwai]

I suppose at this point I'm willing to try anything lol. I don't suppose that Cleric would be a good idea, with the heavy armour and such?

[Flickerdart]

Ahaha. Oh man. Cleric. I don't suppose you're familiar with the term CoDzilla.

Basically, Cleric + Divine Metamagic + Persistent Spell = all day buffs without increasing spell level. Clerics have some of the best buffs in the game. Add Extend Spell on top of that and now your buffs last 48 hours, so you can have twice as many up. Use Nightsticks, Extra Turning, high Charisma and stacking different Turn Undead pools to get as many attempts as possible, then buff yourself to the nines at the beginning of the day and win melee forever.

[Jaidee Por Kwai]

Win melee forever? I approve of this message.

[Amphetryon]

I suppose at this point I'm willing to try anything lol. I don't suppose that Cleric would be a good idea, with the heavy armour and such?

Cleric would potentially work just fine. Flickerdart ninja'd in all the relevant advice for them; the other option is Druid with a flying Wild Shape form for some mobility, or a good tanking form (bears are always popular) for grappling/mauling.

[Jaidee Por Kwai]

I suppose the same ideas for the Cleric would work for the Druid as well...?

[Lateral]

I suppose the same ideas for the Cleric would work for the Druid as well...?

Not exactly. With a Cleric, you buff the hell out of yourself and win D&D; with a Druid, you turn into a magic-slinging bear and win D&D.

[Endarire]

Druids have more obvious applications in melee. (See Wild Shape and Natural Spell.)

I'm a fan of heavy optimization. It's what I do. How interested is your group in learning how the game really works?

[Amphetryon]

I suppose the same ideas for the Cleric would work for the Druid as well...?

Many of the Cleric's buffs and the routine Flickerdart outlined for them are predicated on using Turn Undead for "free" Persistent Spell. Druid doesn't get that option, and instead relies on turning into an appropriate form, while using the Animal Companion as a secondary attacker and target for the enemies. Druids have only one exclusive feat in Core - Natural Spell; if you're going Druid, there's almost no reason not to take it at 6th level, as it lets you cast in your wild shape form.

[Jaidee Por Kwai]

Druids have more obvious applications in melee. (See Wild Shape and Natural Spell.)

I'm a fan of heavy optimization. It's what I do. How interested is your group in learning how the game really works?

The less they know, the better ;) haha. But seriously, none of them have much of a clue about how optimization works, and I'm only marginally better. At least I didn't take Iron Will (our rogue did).

But I'm fine with doing whatever it takes to not die or nearly die on a semi-regular basis.

[Lateral]

The less they know, the better ;) haha. But seriously, none of them have much of a clue about how optimization works, and I'm only marginally better. At least I didn't take Iron Will (our rogue did).

Better than taking Toughness or Run, though.

[Flickerdart]

How interested is your group in learning how the game really works?
Disclaimer: The way the game really works is that it really doesn't. Learning optimization consists largely of discovering mistakes that the designers made. If you are enjoying the game as it is, you may not want to go down this road.

[Lateral]

Disclaimer: The way the game really works is that it really doesn't. Learning optimization consists largely of discovering mistakes that the designers made. If you are enjoying the game as it is, you may not want to go down this road.

Yeah, but he's making this thread because he isn't, and he isn't because his DM is being a jerkface. Maybe this is something that should be handled OOC, but otherwise optimization is something that naturally follows.

[Jaidee Por Kwai]

Disclaimer: The way the game really works is that it really doesn't. Learning optimization consists largely of discovering mistakes that the designers made. If you are enjoying the game as it is, you may not want to go down this road.

I do enjoy the game as we play it, at large, however I don't enjoy the DM's infantile high school drama issues being taken out on me in-game. I don't wanna go way too heavy on optimization, I just want to not die.

[Chambers]

Here's some base reading material.

Cleric Handbook. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=420.0)
Druid Handbook. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1354.0)

Psychic Warrior. (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1542.0) (They hit stuff with big weapons but can do a lot more. Very useful class)
A Guide to Free D&D (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=513.0) (A list of free & legal D&D stuff. You may find something useful here)

The Sword and Board Handbook. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?PHPSESSID=7i8lgh1dmamvk7hdovruhp1ah0&topic=10232.0)

---

If you are able to use the Tome of Battle, check out the Crusader Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?PHPSESSID=7i8lgh1dmamvk7hdovruhp1ah0&topic=4227.0). Crusader is a very solid melee class that can do a little self-healing and has class feature damage soak. A few feats (Stone Power from ToB) can increase your survivability.

If your DM allows ToB, I'd say go Crusader. If not and he allows Psionics, then go Psychic Warrior. If both of those options are closed, then choose Cleric or Druid and lay down the smack.

[sonofzeal]

I do enjoy the game as we play it, at large, however I don't enjoy the DM's infantile high school drama issues being taken out on me in-game. I don't wanna go way too heavy on optimization, I just want to not die.
Cleric's best then. Not only can they DMM:Persist for melee pwnage, they also have great durability and a wide selection of "no" buttons. Energy Resistance, Death Ward, Freedom of Movement - prep the right buffs, and you can shrug off just about everything.

[Snowbluff]

Disclaimer: The way the game really works is that it really doesn't. Learning optimization consists largely of discovering mistakes that the designers made. If you are enjoying the game as it is, you may not want to go down this road.

This^

ION, what does the CoD in CoDzilla stand for?

[Chambers]

This^

ION, what does the CoD in CoDzilla stand for?

Cleric Or Druid.

[TroubleBrewing]

Cleric Or Druid.

EDIT: Gah! The Swordsages!

[kardar233]

Hi Welcome (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9724.0) to the land of showing ignorant DMs why Tier 1 is Tier 1 (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5293).

Another set of outlines to playing melee well is Person_Man's Guide to Melee Combos (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=127026) (and pretty much anything else he's written, that man's a saint).

[Mantarni]

Here's some base reading material.

Cleric Handbook. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=420.0)

That is quite a good guide, and has the added bonus of being such a common class for analysis you can google any issue you need help with and find at least ten different threads on it. Or just post them in here.

Would it be too much trouble to post some updates in this thread once you get started? This amuses me more than it should, I really want to find out how this goes and what hijinks the DM tries after you start beating him.

Hell, post them and I bet people will be more than happy to give countertactics. Nobody likes grade-school-drama gamers.

[Flickerdart]

Hi Welcome (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9724.0) to the land of showing ignorant DMs why Tier 1 is Tier 1 (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5293).
I believe this (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4938.0) is the "why T1 is T1" thread you are referring to. Yours is just the general tier system link.

[Jaidee Por Kwai]

Would it be too much trouble to post some updates in this thread once you get started? This amuses me more than it should, I really want to find out how this goes and what hijinks the DM tries after you start beating him.

Hell, post them and I bet people will be more than happy to give countertactics. Nobody likes grade-school-drama gamers.

Haha, hellz yeah I will. We meet again Thursday, I'm making my build tonight or tomorrow.

[kardar233]

It would help to know what the Tier System is and what classes are where before being told why, no?

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Waitwaitwait.

You have an obvious out-of-game problem with the DM, and as far as we know he's immaturely manifesting this drama in his own game. And the playground's solution is to bring a clericzilla to the game, the one with other players who are presumably doing nothing wrong, as a response to this out-of-game drama?

How about you try asking him why your characters get targeted so much? Try to be as diplomatic, dispassionate and factual as possible. Do the other players notice this behavior? Are they just happy they're not being targeted? I promise you breaking his game isn't going to solve your problem. If anything it'll just exacerbate the problem and turn you into "the player who brings crazy internet builds to the table."

[Stormageddon]

Uhmmm might I suggest that you have a talk with your DM instead or find a new group to play with. If the DM wants your character dead than it's going to happen no matter what you do. It doesn't have to be dramatic as "calling him out" just ask him what's up, than you can have a conversation about it.

[legomaster00156]

If the DM wants you dead, no amount of optimization cheese is going to save you. Get this straightened out with your DM personally, or leave the game. You're trying to win a a fight against a god.

[GreyMantle]

Given that this seems to be serving as your crashcourse in HARKOUR PARKOUR DND TACTICS, I should prolly mention that the Tier system that most erryone seems to lurrrrrve is really not all it's cracked up to be. The Tier system is mostly predicated on 20th level shenanigans and weird powerloops that tend not to come up in actual play. This is mostly evident in the differentiation between Tier I and Tier II. That and JaronK's bizarre hardon for Factota means they get placed bizarrely high. It also doesn't really take into account the power levels of specific builds, and PrCs and feats.

A better comparative powerlevel system is that found at http://www.dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Dungeons_and_Dragons_Wiki:Balance_Points. It's more comprehensive, and it's also based on balance points that are actually likely to come up in play.

And crazy stoopid optimization could potentially help you. A vaguely idealized prediction of events might go as follows:
1) You show up with a sooperdooper hardcore build that rocks erryone's socks off. It is capable of killing anything the DM might normally throw at the party.
(Note: It is important not to overshine the rest of the party. Even if you could beat all the encounters by your lonesome, you should take care not to hog the spotlight too much.)
2) One of two things then happens:
2) a. The DM becomes frustrated that he can't kill you without wrecking the rest of the party and lessens his ingame animosity. This could even lead him to growing up, but, at least you might be safe.
2) b. The DM steps up the escalation game to compensate for your character. This will lead to:
2) b. i: The party simply cannot handle the intensity of encounters and they become frustrated with the DM. This leads to overall changes in the style of the game being run.
2) b. ii: The DM basically cheats to keep killing you without wrecking the rest of the party. This makes his immaturity more obviously apparent to the rest of the group, they get annoyed, and overall changes in the style of the game are effected.

[Snowbluff]

Cleric Or Druid.

EDIT: Gah! The Swordsages!

Wow, everytime I've seen you post, you've been SSed :P

ION, thanks for the clarification. I've have to say, between Cleric and Druid, Druids have a plenty of the defensive spells, while Clerics get much better offensive buffs. For example, Clerics get Divine Might, Favor, Righteous Might. Buff great for melee but not meant last all day (Why DMM is such a... favorable option).

Druids don't get those, but they get Wildshape, which gives AC bonus and offensive abilities, along with others when comboed with things like Bark skin and Luminous Armor, which you can get away with using a MM Rod: Extend. You could potentially have a carbon copy of yourself with all the same buffs as a companion for a sort of mini-leadership. Throw in some silding clasps for extra armor/equipment and you have a winning build.

Personally, I don't like spell slinging as Druid. As a Druid I delegated myself to melee, tanking, support spells. Fortunately, you have 2 more available Feats compared to a Cleric (DMM vs. Natural Spell), which leave a few slots for damage improvement. The DC is a good place to look for extra blasting spells, while you're at it.

[TroubleBrewing]

A Druid can be a party unto himself, with proper feats.

He gets a free Fighter and can pick up a skill monkey/meatshield/caster/whatever through the Summon line, or through Wild Cohort (Monkey) for instance.

[Geigan]

Given that this seems to be serving as your crashcourse in HARKOUR PARKOUR DND TACTICS, I should prolly mention that the Tier system that most erryone seems to lurrrrrve is really not all it's cracked up to be. The Tier system is mostly predicated on 20th level shenanigans and weird powerloops that tend not to come up in actual play. This is mostly evident in the differentiation between Tier I and Tier II. That and JaronK's bizarre hardon for Factota means they get placed bizarrely high. It also doesn't really take into account the power levels of specific builds, and PrCs and feats.

A better comparative powerlevel system is that found at http://www.dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Dungeons_and_Dragons_Wiki:Balance_Points. It's more comprehensive, and it's also based on balance points that are actually likely to come up in play.

While I do think you've never actually given the tier system a fair read(or more importantly why (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5070.0) each class is in it's tier) and seem to be writing it off without understanding what JaronK is saying, I do like that article you pointed out as it has a basic message similar to the tier system. I think the balance point concept is a better name for the concept though as it leads to less misunderstandings as you seem to have, not to mention the concept of using tiers as a measuring stick to determine the worth of a class. Though I think JaronK's tiers are separated better than the balance points.

As for the OP melee done easy has been laid out, as well as Person_man's guide which gives a lot of good ideas. Also as has been pointed out this is an OoC issue and will not be resolved by turning your game into an arms race, which this could very well lead to by trying to win melee forever. Just getting good enough to take the punishment should suffice and if your DM keeps escalating it you need to talk to the him and/or the other players about it as it's not going to get better by trying to show him up in game.

[GreyMantle]

While I do think you've never actually given the tier system a fair read(or more importantly why (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5070.0) each class is in it's tier) and seem to be writing it off without understanding what JaronK is saying, I do like that article you pointed out as it has a basic message similar to the tier system. I think the balance point concept is a better name for the concept though as it leads to less misunderstandings as you seem to have, not to mention the concept of using tiers as a measuring stick to determine the worth of a class. Though I think JaronK's tiers are separated better than the balance points.



I have. Furrealzies. Many times. And the one concession I'm willing to make about the Tier system is that it's probably fairly accurate for the sorts of "anything goes" sorts of games you often find on forums. But for games that are supposed to last beyond a few sessions, the sort of criteria used to base the Tier system on are seriously lacking.

Here are just a few basic criticisms.

Let's look at the beguiler vs. the wizard/sorcerer.
At pretty much any level, a beguiler is pretty much set out of the box. You grab the appropriate Spell Focus feats, maybe Arcane Disciple, and you're golden. Your spelllist lets you beat or negate basically any encounter at low levels. Even against undead and constructs, you can cleverly use illusions to triumph.

Making a good beguiler is almost impossible to screw up. Now, you can't do things like chainbind efreeti to mine wishes, but oh well. From levels 1-20, you are basically guaranteed to have useful and powerful options available in combat and out of combat.

Now, everything a beguiler can do, a wizard can do. But most all of the legitimately good things a wizard can do, a beguiler can also do. Either with his good spell list, or with Arcane Disciple, or Shadow Conjuration, etc... What the wizard can do that the beguiler can't do without a bit of effort is break the game. But the thing about breaking games is that, once you break the game, it has been broken. That sounds like a tautology, but it's really just a simple truth. If you have your wizard get infinite wishes by chainbinding efreeti or destroy the world one Shadow at a time, then your options are either 1) Start a new game, 2) play a power fantasy game where every party member has essentially infinite magic items and you all sort of pretend the world could continue to function, or 3) go "my bad guys. Let's just pretend that didn't happen."

Breaking a game as a wizard is easy, but it's also pointless. Under criteria that actually count, there's no real reason to rate beguilers as noticeably worse than wizards. And beguilers even get cool things like more class features, more HP, and more skill points. And beguilers will almost certainly be way more useful to a party and more powerful in general in comparison to a sorcerer or psion. Sorcerers and psions deserve a special note just for being really easy to mess up while building. If you want to, you can break the game with one. But if you really want to, you can break the game with a Commoner. On average, Sorcs and Psions are going to be among the least effective of the full casters. Honestly, something like a Dread Necro is probably going to be better. And a DN will certainly have more options.

Artificers are really just kind of stupid. Again, an artificer can break D&D sometime between level 5 and 10. But until then he's really just a fifth wheel who's not the best at anything. And 1st level Artificers are basically just Aristocrats.

No one knows how Factota actually work. And JaronK's hardon for them seems mostly derived from a) a skill from an obscure 3.0 sourcebook that may or may not be allowed, and 2) a feat from an obscure web supplement to an obscure rulebook. Rogues are just as good if not better than Factota are in most respects, and they have the advantage of being familiar and accepted. And halfling hurlers can easily remain competitive until level 20. Again, a Rogue will basically never break the game, but they can still play in the same parties as wizards without feeling too small in the pants.

Archivists are actually not bad. I don't have problems

If we really care, we can also talk about ease to play vs. ease to build.

tl;dr: In many respects, the Tier system is derived from weird principles that value power loops and exploits over viability in longterm games. It is accurate in that it sez that Wizards, Druids, and Clerics are WTFOMGBBGPWNAGE. But Beguilers belong there too, and Artificers really don't. And Factota are basically broken on principle.

[sonofzeal]

tl;dr: In many respects, the Tier system is derived from weird principles that value power loops and exploits over viability in longterm games. It is accurate in that it sez that Wizards, Druids, and Clerics are WTFOMGBBGPWNAGE. But Beguilers belong there too, and Artificers really don't. And Factota are basically broken on principle.
While I agree that the Tier system generally assumes a mid-high level of optimization to take full effect, I disagree with... just about everything else you said.

To clarify - the Tier System is based on flexibility, not power. Specifically, it's about how easy it is for that class to totally go off the rails and solve problems with far more ease than a DM expected.

Factota, without FoI or Iaijutsu, are more flexible than most classes. They have UMD, they have spell-like abilities, they can fight, they can rogue. If DMs treats them like a Rogue, they're likely to be unpleasantly surprised when suddenly their challenging dungeon is bypassed when the lvl 4 Factota makes a DC 40 jump check while taking 10, or does any of the umpteen other things that a Factotum can throw out any given day without building for it specifically. None of them are all that huge, but that's why they're only Tier 3. Here's a good justification. (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=v91fhvbutdpe9ktvctqm6gir22&topic=658.0;msg=3305) It's harder to predict what a Factotum will do than it is to predict what a Rogue will do, because the Factotum has more options and variety.

Beguilers have a lot of awesomeness they can do, you're right. But it's known. A DM with a Beguiler in the party should know basically what he's in for. Illusions are awesome and flexible, and so is Shadow Conjuration, but both of those have limits. It's harder to predict what a Beguiler will do than it is to predict what a Rogue will do, because the Beguiler has more options and variety. But it's far easier to predict than the Wizard, who has a vastly wider range of magical abilities at his disposal. A DM worth their salt knows that Beguilers are relatively weak (though certainly not useless) against Constructs, Undead, and other things immune or resistant to Mind-Affecting. A clever Beguiler can still pull some tricks (they're T3, so they should be somewhat difficult to predict), but it'll certainly limit their options significantly. A Wizard though... the Wizard can do just about anything. In a particular day, the Wizard might not be ready to solve a particular problem, but odds are a competently-played Wizard can find dozens of ways to shock even a competent DM.

Artificers too. I've played one, and I very quickly had a solution for just about everything. I could have killed or disabled the entire rest of the party in one round each, using different tricks. I could regularly find ways to bypass encounters or render them trivial - I didn't, not always, because it was expensive and I couldn't afford to do it each time. But by lvl 10 I don't think any DM could have reliably kept me from short-circuiting his plans. The list of options at my disposal was simply too great, from Split Ray of Stupidity to mass-stacked Explosive Runes to a buffed-to-9-hells Iron Defender to the friggin' Cephalopocalypse. I had far too many tools at my disposal, and nothing was impossible for me... merely expensive. I couldn't solve everything all the time. But nobody could predict when and where and how I'd escape the DM's carefully laid plans.

[JadePhoenix]

No matter how much you optimize, if the DM wants you dead, you'll die. If you optimize to make this harder, you will still die, but probably other characters will die as well.
My advice: take a deep breath and talk to him about it.

[Gwendol]

I would second that recommendation, while also present a perfectly acceptable build, such as a Horizon Tripper (well rounded, core build), or cleric while toning down the DMM tricks.
I am actively discouraging you from playing a wildshaped melee druid, since that is fraught with risk of dying, which you want to avoid.

Another option is to go somewhere else: bard for example. Inspire courage is very simple to optimize, and it has the benefit of making everyone else (also) look like Elvis. With alter self you can gain easy access to flight, and stay out of trouble while singing and fire your bow at the enemies while the inspired party wreaks havoc among the enemy.

[Lateral]

Factota

FACTOTUMS ALREADY.

[sonofzeal]

FACTOTUMS ALREADY.
First, I dislike being shouted at.

Second, I prefer "factota". I think it sounds better, and I prefer to use words and terms that appeal to me aesthetically. This is why I use "grey" over "gray", and "zee" over "zed".

Third, it passes the prime test - if you are familiar with the term "factotum", then "factota" will be entirely comprehensible with no loss of meaning. Since it is just as readily parsed as "factotums" in the vast majority of cases by fluent english speakers, it is by definition an english word. Protesting to the contrary will get you nowhere.

[Wings of Peace]

If you decide to go Cleric I recommend going with the Lightbringer variant. That way you can dip Sacred Exorcist and Death Delver for lots of turn undead attempts. Death Delver will halt your spell progression for a level but imo it's worth it.


No matter how much you optimize, if the DM wants you dead, you'll die. If you optimize to make this harder, you will still die, but probably other characters will die as well.
My advice: take a deep breath and talk to him about it.

No way, everyone knows the best way to survive dm wrath is by playing the "If I die it means the whole group dies" card. :smalltongue:

[DoctorGlock]

Now, I may get chewed out by the playground by suggesting this, but consider a small deviation from cleric into prestige paladin, either 1 or 4 levels. 1 will qualify you for battle blessing meaning all paladin spells as swift actions, and 4 will get sword of the arcane order so you can use your paladin spells for arcane spells which is awesome, especially when using them as swift actions. Even if the DM only allows paladin slots to be 1-4th spells the list still has some rather nice ones- one makes all your weapon attacks touch attacks or 1 round/level, and frees up some turning to persist other buffs.

[JadePhoenix]

No way, everyone knows the best way to survive dm wrath is by playing the "If I die it means the whole group dies" card. :smalltongue:

I think that's just a joke, but I'd like to point out that I did this once.
The DM simply found another group.

[sonofzeal]

Now, I may get chewed out by the playground by suggesting this, but consider a small deviation from cleric into prestige paladin, either 1 or 4 levels. 1 will qualify you for battle blessing meaning all paladin spells as swift actions, and 4 will get sword of the arcane order so you can use your paladin spells for arcane spells which is awesome, especially when using them as swift actions. Even if the DM only allows paladin slots to be 1-4th spells the list still has some rather nice ones- one makes all your weapon attacks touch attacks or 1 round/level, and frees up some turning to persist other buffs.
Prestige Pally 3 is a good dip for a melee Cleric, I entirely approve. Going SotAO is a bit wonky though, that's crossing my personal cheese tolerance limit.

[Person_Man]

Enter the dilemma: the DM does not like me. It's some stupid drama issue involving some girl.

I suggest using the well known "bro-mance" strategy. Buy your DM a beer and talk about your lady issues. Bring pizza to the gaming group occasionally. Find other points of mutual interest - you're both playing D&D, so obviously there are some geek related hobbies you must share and can spend time doing together. Find a band that you both like and go see their concert. And above all else, don't argue with his DM-ing style or rule interpretations, even if he's wrong. Because every time you win an argument, it means he has to lose an argument. And no one likes to lose. (There's a much larger meta-strategy for optimizing disagreement, but that's a much longer post). You'd be surprised at how much this will help your PC.

Along those lines, in game, your character should focus on helping, defending, healing, and buffing other players, as opposed to "winning" combat or being the star of the show. And if you're killed, take it in stride, don't whine about it, and be the better man. There will always be another PC that you can create. You don't need any particular crunch. (And this comes from the guy who spends most of his forum time posting long lists (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=127026) of how to optimize). You just need a better relationship.

[DoctorGlock]

Prestige Pally 3 is a good dip for a melee Cleric, I entirely approve. Going SotAO is a bit wonky though, that's crossing my personal cheese tolerance limit.

meh, it's only cheesy if the DM rules that it applies to all 0-9th slots, and even then it depends on the game. It's also mitigated by being stuck with a harshly rigid code, regardless of which paladin variant you are using.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

I think that's just a joke, but I'd like to point out that I did this once.
The DM simply found another group.Which, in this case, is a solution!

[Geigan]

If we really care, we can also talk about ease to play vs. ease to build.Sorry for taking so long to reply your post, RL etc etc. I disagree with most of your points except perhaps that beguilers are underrated. But I think if we really care we should start a new thread to discuss this or talk about it over PMs as rehashing the finer points of the tier system here would be unproductive and thread derailing.


*snip*With this quality of advice I'm surprised we don't see "Person_Man's Guide to Optimizing Friendships.":smallbiggrin:

[Flickerdart]

With this quality of advice I'm surprised we don't see "Person_Man's Guide to Optimizing Friendships.":smallbiggrin:
Friendships are T6 and can't be saved.

[Geigan]

Friendships are T6 and can't be saved.

But don't forget about the teamwork work PrC man. It's great if you combine it with friendship, and if the whole group does it it's totally OP.:smalltongue:

[Flickerdart]

But don't forget about the teamwork work PrC man. It's great if you combine it with friendship, and if the whole group does it it's totally OP.:smalltongue:
That's pretty much exclusive to TO: nobody in a real game actually runs this kind of build.

[Heatwizard]

That's pretty much exclusive to TO: nobody in a real game actually runs this kind of build.

On the contrary, I buy a wand of Summon Pizza in every game; there's few problems it can't solve.

[legomaster00156]

But don't forget about the teamwork work PrC man. It's great if you combine it with friendship, and if the whole group does it it's totally OP.:smalltongue:
Well, the final skill you acquire is firing an Orbital Friendship Cannon 1x/day to turn anything you target with it into your friend, permanently, with no save. If they're completely unredeemable, it will encase them in stone, again without a save. I'd say it's the most broken PrC in the game.

[sonofzeal]

Friendships are T6 and can't be saved.
Not true. At this point, it's been amply demonstrated that Friendship is Magic, and that spellcasters are almost invariably T3 or highter. Personally, I think Friendship is Tier 2, but that's just me.

[Rubik]

First, I dislike being shouted at.

Second, I prefer "factota". I think it sounds better, and I prefer to use words and terms that appeal to me aesthetically. This is why I use "grey" over "gray", and "zee" over "zed".

Third, it passes the prime test - if you are familiar with the term "factotum", then "factota" will be entirely comprehensible with no loss of meaning. Since it is just as readily parsed as "factotums" in the vast majority of cases by fluent english speakers, it is by definition an english word. Protesting to the contrary will get you nowhere.And yet it's incorrect. Extremely incorrect. It's like saying 'irregardless' or using 'rouge' instead of 'rogue'.

Or 'manoeuvres'. There are no 'manoeuvres' in 3.5, just as there is no such thing as a 'factota'.

[sonofzeal]

And yet it's incorrect. Extremely incorrect. It's like saying 'irregardless' or using 'rouge' instead of 'rogue'.
Again, protesting that it's not a word is going to get you nowhere. It passes the prime test. As does "irregardless", to be frank, but the construction is illogical and awkward. "Factota" meanwhile is an elegant little construction that follows the proper pluralization rules of the source language for its components. "Totum" becomes "Tota", so there's a certain amount of internal consistency in choosing the latin pluralization, whereas "irregardless" doesn't. Not that english always makes sense - look at flammable versus inflammable, for one.

I admit it's a bit of an affectation, but so is my choice of "zee" as a Canadian where "zed" is preferred (and where "izod" might claim more historic foundation but nobody uses it anyway). And it's not like English has any shortage of irregular conjugations and pluralization (one child, two children).

In any case, I don't see any reason for people to yell at me and derail a thread simply to affirm their own preference. I heard "factota" before I heard "factotems", so to me that seems the most natural way to say it. It also flows better in my opinion, and I'll continue to prefer it regardless of what gets said here. You may as well save your breath fingers.



EDIT: And just to reinforce things.... who here would say "agendums" or "datums" or "millenniums"? Understanding the irregular "-um" -> "-a" latin pluralization is important for any fluent English speaker, and I see no reason not to apply it in this case.

[Mantarni]

factota->factoti->factotum->factots

We care why? We need everyone else to convert or care why?

[Flickerdart]

Not true. At this point, it's been amply demonstrated that Friendship is Magic, and that spellcasters are almost invariably T3 or highter. Personally, I think Friendship is Tier 2, but that's just me.
Friendship is Healer.

[BoutsofInsanity]

To give a lower optimized response to you then the playground and sticking with the fighter theme, try a area control build revolving a reach weapon (Spiked Chain)

Get these feats and enchantments
Feats
weapon proficiency exotic Spiked Chain
Stand Still
Combat Reflexes
Combat expertise
Improved Disarm
Improved Trip

At this point, you want to increase your reach with your weapon
Sooo, you enlarge yourself thus increasing your reach and ability to protect your party around you, and you take the floating shield enchantment that allows you to have a shield and wield a weapon in two hands.