Cleric 3/Wizard 3/Mystic Theurge 1/Geomancer X

[Tsvet]

Hello, my RPGers fellows!

Just a quick question:
I know that I'll be losing 3 levels of spell for both arcane and cleric, but is this build viable?

Cleric 3/Wizard 3/Mystic Theurge 1/Geomancer 10/Loremaster 3

Geomancer and Loremaster would both point to MT, so I can level as Cleric AND Wizard.
If this works, should I continue a Cleric and get Zen Archery for Ranged Touch spells and Divine Metamagic, or go Archivist for full Metamagic feats?

[Godskook]

Mystic Theurge doesn't 'have' spellcasting, and thus, can't be progressed by 99% of other prestige classes.

[Tsvet]

Can I have a source for that info?
Would be helpful.

[skycycle blues]

It doesn't grant its own casting, it advances other casting.

[onemorelurker]

Can I have a source for that info?
Would be helpful.

Look at the MT's spells per day entry (not the table, the explanation). Its says that you cast spells as if you'd gained a level in your original arcane and divine spellcasting classes. So you cast as a higher-level wizard/cleric, but you wouldn't cast as an MT the way you'd cast as, say, an assassin. There's no MT spell list.

Essentially, in order for something to be a casting class, it needs to have its own spell progression, not just advance other spell progressions.

[Tsvet]

Ooooh I got it!
Thank you, Godskook, skycycle blues and onemorelurker!

So it doesn't work on classes that advances the spellcasting, like MT, only classes (PrC included) that have actual spell lists, like a sorcerer or a Ur-Priest.

Thanks a lot, guys.

[TroubleBrewing]

Generally, a theurge-type build relies on Ur-Priest, but I've seen a really inventive build somewhere that used Nar Demonbinder (UE) to great effect... I'll see if I can find it.

[Little Brother]

By the way, you don't want to give up 3 levels for mystic Theurge. A better build would look like Illumian Bard 1/Druid 1/Cleric 1/Wizard 1/Mystic Theurge 6/Fochlucan Lyrist 10. Or use Alternative Source Spell with the 9th level spells fighter trick, so you can ready every single cleric spell you want in wizard slots if you want PrCs that only advance one part, like the Dweomerkeeper.

Actually, I noticed that you might be able to argue Cloistered Cleric qualifying you for Fochlucan Lyrist, so all you'd need is Druidic, which means you only lose one caster level.

But, basically, only chumps take three levels of classes to qualify. Far too inefficient.

[Shadowleaf]

By the way, you don't want to give up 3 levels for mystic Theurge. A better build would look like Illumian Bard 1/Druid 1/Cleric 1/Wizard 1/Mystic Theurge 6/Fochlucan Lyrist 10. Or use Alternative Source Spell with the 9th level spells fighter trick, so you can ready every single cleric spell you want in wizard slots if you want PrCs that only advance one part, like the Dweomerkeeper.

Actually, I noticed that you might be able to argue Cloistered Cleric qualifying you for Fochlucan Lyrist, so all you'd need is Druidic, which means you only lose one caster level.

But, basically, only chumps take three levels of classes to qualify. Far too inefficient.Or just people who don't want to use questionable "tricks" to cheese their way into a prestige class.

[Little Brother]

Or just people who don't want to use questionable "tricks" to cheese their way into a prestige class.Illumians with Heighten is in no way questionable, and early entry to Mystic Theurge is in no way cheesy, unless you're one of those people who thing paladins and monks are really good, and the idea of putting out more than 20 damage at level one is scary to. Or at least no more so than wizard or clerics in general.

[Shadowleaf]

Illumians with Heighten is in no way questionable, and early entry to Mystic Theurge is in no way cheesy, unless you're one of those people who thing paladins and monks are really good, and the idea of putting out more than 20 damage at level one is scary to. Or at least no more so than wizard or clerics in general.I know the RAW is solid, but the RAI is wonky and questionable at best. Wanting to access Mystic Theurge the way it was intended doesn't make you a chum.

[Darth_Versity]

I know the RAW is solid, but the RAI is wonky and questionable at best. Wanting to access Mystic Theurge the way it was intended doesn't make you a chum.

It does make you seriously underpowered though. The PrC was made in the original books, so it was lower power because there was no power creep at that point. Now, with so many options available, getting in to the class a couple of lvls early seems trivial.

[Shadowleaf]

It does make you seriously underpowered though. The PrC was made in the original books, so it was lower power because there was no power creep at that point. Now, with so many options available, getting in to the class a couple of lvls early seems trivial.
You are only 'underpowered' by comparison to the stronger options. If no one is using the stronger options, your character is probably plenty strong. No one is forcing you to use the stronger options if they are available. If you keep slow-entry MT viable, you are keeping other less-powered options viable as well.

[Little Brother]

You are only 'underpowered' by comparison to the stronger options. If no one is using the stronger options, your character is probably plenty strong. No one is forcing you to use the stronger options if they are available. If you keep slow-entry MT viable, you are keeping other less-powered options viable as well.No, it's weak, period. You need to work them or they're weak.

And, no. An unoptimized theuge will fall behind any full caster. Unless you're willing to say that having no casters is the only way to be low-op. In that case, you are horribly, horribly wrong. Getting 3rd level spells when everyone else already has fourth is terrible, no matter how bad the other thing is.

[Flawless]

No, it's weak, period. You need to work them or they're weak.

And, no. An unoptimized theuge will fall behind any full caster. Unless you're willing to say that having no casters is the only way to be low-op. In that case, you are horribly, horribly wrong. Getting 3rd level spells when everyone else already has fourth is terrible, no matter how bad the other thing is.

Weak? Compared to what? Tier 1 casters? Everything that is not a Tier 1 or 2 full-caster is weak when compared to these classes. So that's not really an argument. It really depends on what power level your aiming for.

A classical theurge is pretty much on the very top of Tier 3. And really, do you want to claim that everyone playing Tier 3 or below is a chump?

The only problem I see with theurges is the initial 7 or so levels, when you only have level 1 and 2 spells.

[Psyren]

The only problem I see with theurges is the initial 7 or so levels, when you only have level 1 and 2 spells.

That drawback stays with you all the way up because spells are quadratic in power. That Wiz 3/Cleric 3/MT 4? He's just hit 4th-level spells. Meanwhile the Wizard 10 just got his third 5th-level slot before bonuses.

Speaking of bonuses, you're also MAD because you need high stats in both Int and Wis.


And no, it's objectively weak. CR 10-12 monsters assume that you have 5ths. It's not about comparing to other T1s.

[Little Brother]

Weak? Compared to what? Tier 1 casters? Everything that is not a Tier 1 or 2 full-caster is weak when compared to these classes. So that's not really an argument. It really depends on what power level your aiming for.

A classical theurge is pretty much on the very top of Tier 3. And really, do you want to claim that everyone playing Tier 3 or below is a chump?

The only problem I see with theurges is the initial 7 or so levels, when you only have level 1 and 2 spells.The fact that a Swordsage could kick their ass until they get 8th-ish level spells, which, by the way, they only get on one side.

And, no, I say the someone gimping one's own build is a chump. Just like taking a half-casting PrC.

[Dragonsoul]

What if they like the fluff of a class? I for example love the Geomancer as a class,even though mechanically its not that great.

Why should it be expected that you build to maximum power level at all times? I am a strong believer in Optimising a concept to whatever point is appropriate, for example I'm currently Playing a Dragonborn DFA/Crusader--> JFM(With DM approved tweaks), is that optimised? No! but I want to be a fire breathing dragonman that skydives the opposition with a Warhammer! Now I could do that concept far better with a Cleric, but I don't want to. The DM wants a game at ~Tier 3/4 so I'm optimising to that point.

And anyway sometimes its fun working with challenges, like finding uses for your truckload of 1-2 level spells that you get as a low level theurge.

[Psyren]

It's fine to pick a PrC for flavor reasons, I'm not saying you can't. You just have to know what you're getting yourself into, and your DM has to be aware that you may not be as powerful as your base classes indicate so s/he can adjust your obstacles accordingly. (Or not, for a harder game.)

[Little Brother]

It's fine to pick a PrC for flavor reasons, I'm not saying you can't. You just have to know what you're getting yourself into, and your DM has to be aware that you may not be as powerful as your base classes indicate so s/he can adjust your obstacles accordingly. (Or not, for a harder game.)This.

However, that said, there are very few problems that cannot be solved with enough fireballs. And you have enough :smalltongue:

[Dragonsoul]

This.

However, that said, there are very few problems that cannot be solved with enough fireballs. And you have enough :smalltongue:

No I don't, You never have enough Fireballs!

[Tokuhara]

I found a Version of Ur Demonbinder Theurge

Monk 5/Ur Priest 4/Nar Demonbinder 1/Mystic Theurge 8/Whatever 2

You All Are Reading That Right: Monk 5

[Psyren]

The fallacy a lot of people run into is that "Cleric is powerful, and Wizard is powerful, so Mystic Theurge must be OMG!!!"

Well, it can be... but with low stat rolls, no early entry, and regular or lower encounters/day, chances are you'll end up underperforming compared to an straight wizard or straight cleric of equal level, never mind one that joined an even better PrC and got some actual class features.

[DonutBoy12321]

If you really want to get the most out of Geomancer, be a Sha'ir. They're from the Dragon Compendium, so many people don't use them, but if you can, they're great for several reasons. The most prominent reason is that they cast both arcane and divine spells, so they can qualify at level 3. They also get prepare-as-you-go casting, which is wonderful.

[darksolitaire]

I don't think Sha'ir is good idea at all.
Sha'ir has needlessly complicated way of preparing spells: roll dice for how much getting the spell lasts, then roll diplomacy to see if you actually get it. If you get them, you remember them for set amount of hours, unlike wizard who remembers prepared spells all day.

[Gnaeus]

And, no, I say the someone gimping one's own build is a chump. Just like taking a half-casting PrC.

And I say that early entry is pretty darn close to cheating, and well past the line into munchkinry.

Yes, normal entry cleric-wizard MT is weak as written, and should have easier pre-reqs. Yes, a good DM, when confronted with that fact, should rewrite the class. Saying that heighten spell or sanctum spell should let you into MT because MT is weak and it may be allowable by RAW is like saying that I should be able to drown-heal because I am playing a monk. If you don't like a half-casting PRC, you talk to your dm about how to make it playable. You don't take it anyway and then use some obscure rule exploit to make it super-powerful and justify the cheese with how bad your class was originally.

As far as it goes I also disagree with the MT/Swordsage comparison. Yes, the swordsage is better in combat for most of his progression, but the MT is a lot more flexible in a lot more different situations, and brings a lot of abilities to the party. Swordsage can outfight MT /= Swordsage is better than MT.

[Little Brother]

And I say that early entry is pretty darn close to cheating, and well past the line into munchkinry. Using the rules=breaking the rules? :smallconfused:

Yes, normal entry cleric-wizard MT is weak as written, and should have easier pre-reqs. Yes, a good DM, when confronted with that fact, should rewrite the class. Saying that heighten spell or sanctum spell should let you into MT because MT is weak and it may be allowable by RAW is like saying that I should be able to drown-heal because I am playing a monk. If you don't like a half-casting PRC, you talk to your dm about how to make it playable. You don't take it anyway and then use some obscure rule exploit to make it super-powerful and justify the cheese with how bad your class was originally. Ah, everything in the game is balanced because the DM says so, no your half-optimized character is the broke, amirite?

As far as it goes I also disagree with the MT/Swordsage comparison. Yes, the swordsage is better in combat for most of his progression, but the MT is a lot more flexible in a lot more different situations, and brings a lot of abilities to the party. Swordsage can outfight MT /= Swordsage is better than MT.Flexible? Sure, your chump Theurge is casting 4th level spells at level 11, while my Cleric gets Greater Anyspell. He can divine the hell out of everything, and doesn't need to be flexible. The Wizard took Uncanny Forethought. Now he's more flexible than you could hope to be.

Out of combat, the Cleric has better healing and more long-term buffs, and probably better metamagics or some such, as he could take classes with class features. The wizard has better everything as well. They both have the same selection of low-level spells as you do, so your reliance on low-level spells for "flexibility" and out of combat stuff falls apart.

Now, let's compare a good theurge to a wizard and a cleric:
Wizard- I am one level behind, like a sorcerer, so the spell level won't come up too much. He gave up flexibility for specializing, so, unless he's a focused Illusionist Shadowcraft Mage, I'm more flexible, because my Cleric list picks up the slack. A Wizard 2/Binder 1/Anima Mage 8. He has 5th level, like me, but has better metamagics, and has some Binder toys, but I have access to some domain exclusives, but most of all, I have almost all of your toys, and almost all of the clerics toys. Now if you're a metamagic nut build, it's the same story. I have one level lower spells than you, which hurts, but it's not two, like yours, and I can keep up.

Cleric: He's a melee monster. That's not my job. He can buff the hell out of anything, but, honestly, I can do it better, with all the wizard toys. He, however, has all the nice self buffs which I, with my d4 hit dice, can't use well. Whereas, Yours has fourth level buffs, and is just as squishy. Fourth level spells CANNOT keep up in a party of sixth, unless it's on something with an odd progression, like bards.

[Shadowleaf]

Using the rules=breaking the rules? :smallconfused:
Ah, everything in the game is balanced because the DM says so, no your half-optimized character is the broke, amirite?
Flexible? Sure, your chump Theurge is casting 4th level spells at level 11, while my Cleric gets Greater Anyspell. He can divine the hell out of everything, and doesn't need to be flexible. The Wizard took Uncanny Forethought. Now he's more flexible than you could hope to be.

Out of combat, the Cleric has better healing and more long-term buffs, and probably better metamagics or some such, as he could take classes with class features. The wizard has better everything as well. They both have the same selection of low-level spells as you do, so your reliance on low-level spells for "flexibility" and out of combat stuff falls apart.

Now, let's compare a good theurge to a wizard and a cleric:
Wizard- I am one level behind, like a sorcerer, so the spell level won't come up too much. He gave up flexibility for specializing, so, unless he's a focused Illusionist Shadowcraft Mage, I'm more flexible, because my Cleric list picks up the slack. A Wizard 2/Binder 1/Anima Mage 8. He has 5th level, like me, but has better metamagics, and has some Binder toys, but I have access to some domain exclusives, but most of all, I have almost all of your toys, and almost all of the clerics toys. Now if you're a metamagic nut build, it's the same story. I have one level lower spells than you, which hurts, but it's not two, like yours, and I can keep up.

Cleric: He's a melee monster. That's not my job. He can buff the hell out of anything, but, honestly, I can do it better, with all the wizard toys. He, however, has all the nice self buffs which I, with my d4 hit dice, can't use well. Whereas, Yours has fourth level buffs, and is just as squishy. Fourth level spells CANNOT keep up in a party of sixth, unless it's on something with an odd progression, like bards.Why enter the arms race when you can simply have everyone agree only to buy a pistol? :smallconfused:

That early-entry MT is poor compared to a DMM Cleric, who in turn is downright curbstomped by a Batman Wizard. So everyone should play Batman Wizards, right?

[Dragonsoul]

The general point here is that any of us can optimise to the top of tier 1, its not hard, but sometimes that's not your goal. Sometimes you want to aim for tier 3/tier 4. That means using early entry cheese is doing too much (and it is cheese).I don't really want to make my games Knight feel useless, and I don't like restraining myself in game("Oh God! The Zombies are attacking! Help us Mr wizard!" "Ok, I'll just cast a few buffs on the knight". "But you could just-". "I don't want him to feel useless" "?!")

[Gnaeus]

Using the rules=breaking the rules? :smallconfused:

The rules include such monstrosities as infinite wish loops.

If I am playing in a mid-high op game, as a monk, and I decide that because of the suckyness of my class, I should abuse candles of invocation....just a little bit. Only enough to give myself, maybe 50% more wbl and kick my stats up about 10 points each. After all, it is RAW legal, and I am still weaker than that wizard or cleric.

No.

If you want a workable monk, or a workable Mystic Theurge, the grown up response is to talk to your DM. Agree on where the balance point is, and put them there. It is not to tie the rules in a knot, while screaming. "RAW legal! RAW legal!"



Ah, everything in the game is balanced because the DM says so, no your half-optimized character is the broke, amirite?

I'm not really sure what that means. But if you are asking if a half-optimized character can be broken in the context of the game it is playing in, yes, absolutely. Or if you are asking if the DM is the ultimate arbiter of what is or is not balanced in his game, then also yes (modified by rule 0, that players can always walk out).


Flexible? Sure, your chump Theurge is casting 4th level spells at level 11, while my Cleric gets Greater Anyspell. He can divine the hell out of everything, and doesn't need to be flexible. The Wizard took Uncanny Forethought. Now he's more flexible than you could hope to be.

Out of combat, the Cleric has better healing and more long-term buffs, and probably better metamagics or some such, as he could take classes with class features. The wizard has better everything as well. They both have the same selection of low-level spells as you do, so your reliance on low-level spells for "flexibility" and out of combat stuff falls apart.

Now, let's compare a good theurge to a wizard and a cleric:
Wizard- I am one level behind, like a sorcerer, so the spell level won't come up too much. He gave up flexibility for specializing, so, unless he's a focused Illusionist Shadowcraft Mage, I'm more flexible, because my Cleric list picks up the slack. A Wizard 2/Binder 1/Anima Mage 8. He has 5th level, like me, but has better metamagics, and has some Binder toys, but I have access to some domain exclusives, but most of all, I have almost all of your toys, and almost all of the clerics toys. Now if you're a metamagic nut build, it's the same story. I have one level lower spells than you, which hurts, but it's not two, like yours, and I can keep up.

Cleric: He's a melee monster. That's not my job. He can buff the hell out of anything, but, honestly, I can do it better, with all the wizard toys. He, however, has all the nice self buffs which I, with my d4 hit dice, can't use well. Whereas, Yours has fourth level buffs, and is just as squishy. Fourth level spells CANNOT keep up in a party of sixth, unless it's on something with an odd progression, like bards.

Again, you have confused me. I never said MT was as good as a cleric or a wizard. It clearly, provably, isn't. I disagreed with your argument:


The fact that a Swordsage could kick their ass until they get 8th-ish level spells, which, by the way, they only get on one side.

In a tier 3 party including (maybe) a Factotum, a Swordsage, a Crusader and a Bard, a normal entry Mystic Theurge is entirely playable. He has a lot of valuable powers no one else gets. In a tier 1 party with a full Wizard, Cleric, Druid, Archivist, he is the weakest kid there. In a tier 5 party of Fighter, Monk, Healer, Ninja, he will ultimately have to hold back to allow the other players screen time.

[Little Brother]

Why enter the arms race when you can simply have everyone agree only to buy a pistol? :smallconfused:

That early-entry MT is poor compared to a DMM Cleric, who in turn is downright curbstomped by a Batman Wizard. So everyone should play Batman Wizards, right?No, because Batman gets curbstomped by Mindbender Incantrix Divine Oracle Batman.

And the reason that's bad is I'd rather have the Halo Magnum than have Deringer Akimbo. Specifically, I'd rather have Needler akimbo, but whatever.

The general point here is that any of us can optimise to the top of tier 1, its not hard, but sometimes that's not your goal. Sometimes you want to aim for tier 3/tier 4. That means using early entry cheese is doing too much (and it is cheese).I don't really want to make my games Knight feel useless, and I don't like restraining myself in game("Oh God! The Zombies are attacking! Help us Mr wizard!" "Ok, I'll just cast a few buffs on the knight". "But you could just-". "I don't want him to feel useless" "?!")Except that, if anyone in the tier 3 range is smart, you'd be totally overshadowed until you got 8th or 9th level spells, which is 16-20. I dislike being completely overshadowed until then, thanks.

Also, friends don't let friends play knights.

The rules include such monstrosities as infinite wish loops.

If I am playing in a mid-high op game, as a monk, and I decide that because of the suckyness of my class, I should abuse candles of invocation....just a little bit. Only enough to give myself, maybe 50% more wbl and kick my stats up about 10 points each. After all, it is RAW legal, and I am still weaker than that wizard or cleric. Nope. You're abusing some in-game action to bust the game. I am using a character creation trick to make a character not be destroyed by the first strong Swordsage he runs into. Nice try though

And inherent bonuses are limited at +5.

If you want a workable monk, or a workable Mystic Theurge, the grown up response is to talk to your DM. Agree on where the balance point is, and put them there. It is not to tie the rules in a knot, while screaming. "RAW legal! RAW legal!"No, you don't do some homebrew **** if you want a workable monk. If you want a workable monk, it's called Unarmed Swordsage or Tash PsyWar 20(Or 2/18).

I'm not really sure what that means. But if you are asking if a half-optimized character can be broken in the context of the game it is playing in, yes, absolutely. Or if you are asking if the DM is the ultimate arbiter of what is or is not balanced in his game, then also yes (modified by rule 0, that players can always walk out). And if a DM ever tells me Wizard 10/Mindbender 10 is overpowered, I am walking out.

Again, you have confused me. I never said MT was as good as a cleric or a wizard. It clearly, provably, isn't. I disagreed with your argument:Except you also die to a swordsage, or a warblade, or any number of other things. You are TERRIBLE at level-equivalent combat. I could probably make a TRUENAMER outperform that build.

In a tier 3 party including (maybe) a Factotum, a Swordsage, a Crusader and a Bard, a normal entry Mystic Theurge is entirely playable. He has a lot of valuable powers no one else gets. In a tier 1 party with a full Wizard, Cleric, Druid, Archivist, he is the weakest kid there. In a tier 5 party of Fighter, Monk, Healer, Ninja, he will ultimately have to hold back to allow the other players screen time.If playable means playing heal-bitch and losing 3 caster levels and all your class features to suck and be inferior to everyone else in the part, I agree.

If a party looks like Swordsage(/Wu Jen/JMP), Crusader/Mot9, Factotum/Chamelon, and Bard(/decent Bard PrC)(Has decent melee capability and IC optimization, or has levels of Sublime Chord), no. You will be the weakest link. You will be playing heal-bitch because anything you can do is either useless at that level, or someone else can do better. If your party is unoptimized enough, a newb can play a truenamer and fit in.

[Urpriest]

I found a Version of Ur Demonbinder Theurge

Monk 5/Ur Priest 4/Nar Demonbinder 1/Mystic Theurge 8/Whatever 2

You All Are Reading That Right: Monk 5

Doesn't work. Monk 5 doesn't have the skills to enter Ur-Priest, at least not without a bunch of feats.

[Shadowleaf]

No, because Batman gets curbstomped by Mindbender Incantrix Divine Oracle Batman.

And the reason that's bad is I'd rather have the Halo Magnum than have Deringer Akimbo. Specifically, I'd rather have Needler akimbo, but whatever.
Except that, if anyone in the tier 3 range is smart, you'd be totally overshadowed until you got 8th or 9th level spells, which is 16-20. I dislike being completely overshadowed until then, thanks.

Also, friends don't let friends play knights.
Nope. You're abusing some in-game action to bust the game. I am using a character creation trick to make a character not be destroyed by the first strong Swordsage he runs into. Nice try though

And inherent bonuses are limited at +5.
No, you don't do some homebrew **** if you want a workable monk. If you want a workable monk, it's called Unarmed Swordsage or Tash PsyWar 20(Or 2/18).
And if a DM ever tells me Wizard 10/Mindbender 10 is overpowered, I am walking out.
Except you also die to a swordsage, or a warblade, or any number of other things. You are TERRIBLE at level-equivalent combat. I could probably make a TRUENAMER outperform that build.
If playable means playing heal-bitch and losing 3 caster levels and all your class features to suck and be inferior to everyone else in the part, I agree.

If a party looks like Swordsage(/Wu Jen/JMP), Crusader/Mot9, Factotum/Chamelon, and Bard(/decent Bard PrC)(Has decent melee capability and IC optimization, or has levels of Sublime Chord), no. You will be the weakest link. You will be playing heal-bitch because anything you can do is either useless at that level, or someone else can do better. If your party is unoptimized enough, a newb can play a truenamer and fit in.So.. Many.. Things.. Wrong.. I'll only bother commenting this:


Also, friends don't let friends play knights.
Why wouldn't they? Because hurr durr it's low power? So what? Not everyone wants to optimize and go for the strongest character possible within the parameters. Some people are plain old happy with 'viable' - heck, some people don't even care if it's viable or not. My first character was a Gnome Fighter with high Dex and low Str. He used two-handed weapons. Is this terrible mechanics-wise? Yes it is. Would I build such a character ever again? You can bet your ass I would. I don't care if my characters aren't mechanically strong - I want them to be on par with the rest of the group, nothing more.

Obviously, you are stuck in some farout mentality than strong = fun, and not perfectly optimized = not fun. Playing sub-par classes with sub-par choices can lead to crazy shenanigans and insanely fun sessions. Which would be the most fun to experience: The Batman Wizard mindraping yet another encounter for the umteenth billion time, or the terribly built Gnome Fighter with a polearm getting a lucky crit and taking down the escaping BBEG with an AoO?
I know what I'd choose, that's for damn sure.

[Little Brother]

So.. Many.. Things.. Wrong.. I'll only bother commenting this:So...Much...Wrong...Don't...Know...Where...To ...Start...

Why wouldn't they? Because hurr durr it's low power?No, because everything Knights are supposed to do. It's like a Truenamer.

So what? Not everyone wants to optimize and go for the strongest character possible within the parameters. Some people are plain old happy with 'viable' - heck, some people don't even care if it's viable or not.
The OP cared about how viable the build is. That's what matters. He cares about a good character. This a charop board, not a place to complain about how having some system mastery is a sign of demonic possession or whatever.

My first character was a Gnome Fighter with high Dex and low Str. He used two-handed weapons. Is this terrible mechanics-wise? Yes it is. Would I build such a character ever again? You can bet your ass I would. I don't care if my characters aren't mechanically strong - I want them to be on par with the rest of the group, nothing more.But if you're building a caster, you had damn well optimize it. And a gnome fighter is so far beyond terribad. It has no place on an optimization forum.

Obviously, you are stuck in some farout mentality than strong = fun, and not perfectly optimized = not fun.No I think useless/unable to be relevant=not fun. I thought you'd be better at insults and baseless accusations.

Playing sub-par classes with sub-par choices can lead to crazy shenanigans and insanely fun sessions. Which would be the most fun to experience: The Batman Wizard mindraping yet another encounter for the umteenth billion time, or the terribly built Gnome Fighter with a polearm getting a lucky crit and taking down the escaping BBEG with an AoO?
I know what I'd choose, that's for damn sure.I choose the batman having a strong build, then not playing like a douche. Make them work. Combat will be over in 5-10 rounds, tops, anyways, so make them have some crazy shenanigan plans. Contrary to your apparent belief, there's more to the game than pure numbers. Options to set off said plans are awesome. I've set off entire trap corridors with Decanters of Endless Water(And am never allowed to have them again:smalltongue:). The point it, your hole premise of "high-power=no fun" is absurd at best.

[Dragonsoul]

And OP didn't state to what point he wanted Optimisation to go to- From the feel of it, he isn't in a group with a high degree of system mastery, so all the Early entry cheese is overkill for that group, none of us want to send a player off with an overpowered character either. I like to thing we take concepts and make them work in a given game. After all if we follow your logic -That its an inherently bad thing to play weak classes- to its conclusion. Surely you should link every question on a character to the Pun Pun thread-After all Pun Pun can do everything that player wants his character to do, and do it better than any other build.
This a charop board, not a place to complain about how having some system mastery is a sign of demonic possession or whatever. and any other build is unoptimised.

Oh as for the fun/strong equation

I've set off entire trap corridors with Decanters of Endless Water(And am never allowed to have them again) While that may be fun for you, Anything that gets instabanned is clearly not fun for the GM, who I want to have fun in my games too- and as characters get more powerful,it becomes more difficult for a GM to run a game, It isn't fun to have your campaign derailed by a scry'n'die. We've all seen those DM posts on the forums about OP players.

In Summation, its not about making the most powerful character for a concept, its about making the most power appropriate character for a game, be it Incantrix or gnome fighter.

[Shadowleaf]

So...Much...Wrong...Don't...Know...Where...To...St art...
No, because everything Knights are supposed to do. It's like a Truenamer.

The OP cared about how viable the build is. That's what matters. He cares about a good character. This a charop board, not a place to complain about how having some system mastery is a sign of demonic possession or whatever.
But if you're building a caster, you had damn well optimize it. And a gnome fighter is so far beyond terribad. It has no place on an optimization forum.
No I think useless/unable to be relevant=not fun. I thought you'd be better at insults and baseless accusations.
I choose the batman having a strong build, then not playing like a douche. Make them work. Combat will be over in 5-10 rounds, tops, anyways, so make them have some crazy shenanigan plans. Contrary to your apparent belief, there's more to the game than pure numbers. Options to set off said plans are awesome. I've set off entire trap corridors with Decanters of Endless Water(And am never allowed to have them again:smalltongue:). The point it, your hole premise of "high-power=no fun" is absurd at best.So your argument is that no one should play a knight because you don't like the way they're designed?

Why do you *damn well* have to optimize a caster? It's not as fun if you're not as powerful? Really?

Personal attacks, coolstorybro.jp etc. How is a tier 3 character useless? (Hint: It isn't)

I play like a douche because I don't like to optimize to the best of my ability? :smallconfused: And suddenly *I'm* numbers focused, when I couldn't care less what's written on my sheet, as long as everyone is having fun?

Also, this isn't an optimization board. If you're going to try to be clever, at least gets your "facts" straight.

And fyi, thank you for making the assumption, but I also enjoy high-powered optimization games. I never said I didn't. I just said I prefer low-power.


And frankly, this is my last post on the matter. This circular 'logic', snarkiness and personal attacks is kindergarten stuff. I suggest you leave it there.

[Little Brother]

And OP didn't state to what point he wanted Optimisation to go to- From the feel of it, he isn't in a group with a high degree of system mastery, so all the Early entry cheese is overkill for that group, none of us want to send a player off with an overpowered character either. I like to thing we take concepts and make them work in a given game. After all if we follow your logic -That its an inherently bad thing to play weak classes- to its conclusion. Surely you should link every question on a character to the Pun Pun thread-After all Pun Pun can do everything that player wants his character to do, and do it better than any other build. and any other build is unoptimised. Slippery Slope/False Dichotomy, depending. Just because weak=bad does not mean retarded overpowered is good, or you're trying to say that every not-weak character is retarded busted.

And it still comes down to how you play the wizard/cleric. If you play the wizard as a focused Evoker and the cleric side as a heal-bitch. That has nothing to do with how good the character is. That's my favorite part of Theurges.

Furthermore,he said that he wanted to know how well his build, and how to improve it and stuff, not keep it crap.

Oh as for the fun/strong equation While that may be fun for you, Anything that gets instabanned is clearly not fun for the GM, who I want to have fun in my games too- and as characters get more powerful,it becomes more difficult for a GM to run a game, It isn't fun to have your campaign derailed by a scry'n'die. We've all seen those DM posts on the forums about OP players.So a decent build is worthy of insta-banning? In my experience, and from the normal DM, the best part is the seeing the evil plan coming through, to see the PC spanking or being spanked by a villain for the awesome plan, listening to or crafting said plans.

In Summation, its not about making the most powerful character for a concept, its about making the most power appropriate character for a game, be it Incantrix or gnome fighter.No, it's about making a character for the concept not suck.

[Little Brother]

So your argument is that no one should play a knight because you don't like the way they're designed?No, the knight is a ****ty, badly-designed class, and I recommend avoiding classes like that, just as I recommend avoiding monks, fighters, and truenamers.
Why do you *damn well* have to optimize a caster? It's not as fun if you're not as powerful? Really?No, and you know it. This is depressing seeing you grasping at the same straws over and over. It sucks to be weak. It isn't fun when you are strictly inferior to everyone, and, in a T3 group, this theurge would die within minutes.

Personal attacks, coolstorybro.jp etc. How is a tier 3 character useless? (Hint: It isn't)How is some jank theurge like that T3? (Hint: It isn't)

I play like a douche because I don't like to optimize to the best of my ability? :smallconfused: And suddenly *I'm* numbers focused, when I couldn't care less what's written on my sheet, as long as everyone is having fun? Wow, nice try. Reread the post and get back to me.

Also, this isn't an optimization board. If you're going to try to be clever, at least gets your "facts" straight.Lesse, "Dedicated to the ules and procedures of Dungeons & Dragons 3rd Edition, 3.5 Edition, or any fantasy game blah blah blah," there's the two stickies, rule FAQs, yeah, it is. And, even if this forum wasn't, this THREAD is. Try again, please.

And, considering how you think every game can be brought down to "I DEPR this, I derp that, end of day," yeah, you are looking at the numbers, or just deluding yourself.

And fyi, thank you for making the assumption, but I also enjoy high-powered optimization games. I never said I didn't. I just said I prefer low-power. Dare I ask your definition of high-power optimization? Not intentionally gimping your build?

And frankly, this is my last post on the matter. This circular 'logic', snarkiness and personal attacks is kindergarten stuff. I suggest you leave it there.I suggest you reread my posts, reread the OP, and reread your own posts, then get back to me.

[Tokuhara]

My 2c:

I tend to lean in a semi-optimized route, where I am viable to my party, but not so much I don't outshine the party. I play in a group that runs a generally consistant party who is a Wizard, a Monk, a Cleric, a Paladin, and me. Optimized? No. Balanced? Most of the time. Fun? Definitely.

I personally like playing "The Party Quarterback." I enjoy making the party keep in line with their goal and leading the party to victory. My three best characters were a Duskling Druid, a Half-Elf Marshal, and a Human Cleric/Human Paragon/Marshal. None of which were optimized, all were the voice of reason, and all were a blast to play

[Kenneth]

Ok, i am completely confused.

At first i was like 'oh this guy thinkshe found a cool PrC combo.. only that PrCs that only progress casting can't be prgoressed themselves.'

then for the next page and a half it turn into a LB saying that unless you're a Mindbender Incantrix Divine Oracle Batman.
you should re-roll becuase any otehr class makes you a chump, ( that cool really I guess that I enojyed CHumping it up for the last few decades)

Wow.. as the OP was answered in teh first what.. 3.. 4 posts I have no idea why I contued to read.. but really?


there are people out there that actually belive that unless you are a singular powerful entity that its useless to play the game? id enter one of those 'I don;t wanna live on this planet any more' Demotivationsals.. but Im too lazy.

Anyways I have to give my support to Shadow leaf, for me playing D&D is about being an underdog and overcomng challegnes.. not 'facerolling' thorugh everything with no risk of fialure. after all if you aren't doing anything heroic.. how can you call yourself a hero?

[Yorae]

Little Brother's Argument

I think the point she is trying to make here is that if a class is intended to accomplish a task, it should have the tools necessary to adequately perform the task.

As a metaphor, you need to dig a hole in the ground. You don't need to necessarily have a gold plated mega-shovel 5000 (pimped out god incantatrix or what have you), you could do the job with any good, solid shovel (i.e., a tier 3-ish class). However, if you go trying to dig that hole with a plastic spoon (Knight, Samurai, Ninja...), you are going to be sorely disappointed (and hole-less).

Of course, the DM could have you piddling with your spoon in a sandbox instead of on hard earth, but wouldn't you rather be competent?

Of course, you could play a weak class and optimize it as much as possible - reinforce and improve that spoon so much that its like using a shovel. Then you're competent and you have a nice sense of accomplishment as well because, hey, look what an awesome hole you dug using only a spoon.

Edit: Oops, wrong pronoun.

[JKTrickster]

I think regardless of whatever everyone believes about powergaming/optimizing/party balance/what is fun, we should STOP.

Enough is enough. People are going off on tangents here and its borderline insulting each other. It has nothing to do with the OP's question.

People play DnD differently. That already diverges from the OP's question.

So please, stop. There is no point to endlessly arguing, especially when both sides have been extensively argued before, and no one has the intention of giving up.

[Gnaeus]

Nope. You're abusing some in-game action to bust the game. I am using a character creation trick to make a character not be destroyed by the first strong Swordsage he runs into. Nice try though

It doesn't matter whether you do it in game or out of game. When you destroy the rules as intended in a highly questionable manner just because in your opinion, the character as it would otherwise be is too weak, you are not playing responsibly.

Your advice is like saying playing a full caster is for chumps, you should only play Necropolitan Tainted Scholars, because it is better, and it is legal by RAW. Yes, it is better. But it will be allowed at very few tables. Most of the time, when you bring it up, not only will you be denied, but you will immediately slide into the powergaming munchkin category in the DMs mind, and it will be much more difficult to get reasonable things approved. This is the OPPOSITE of good optimization.


And inherent bonuses are limited at +5.

Easily bypassed with infinite wish loops. PAO, Magic items. There are lots of ways to raise a stat by 10.



Except you also die to a swordsage, or a warblade, or any number of other things. You are TERRIBLE at level-equivalent combat. I could probably make a TRUENAMER outperform that build.

Did you know that there are other things that characters can do other than dish out damage? Mystic Theurges can buff very well. They can do crowd control. Scry and teleport. Perhaps it is true that you cannot play a normal entry MT in a tier 3 party without being nothing but a healer. But I can. Casters are op enough in 3.5 that I can find lots of things to do that are 100% legal that help my team win.


If a party looks like Swordsage(/Wu Jen/JMP), Crusader/Mot9, Factotum/Chamelon, and Bard(/decent Bard PrC)(Has decent melee capability and IC optimization, or has levels of Sublime Chord), no. You will be the weakest link. You will be playing heal-bitch because anything you can do is either useless at that level, or someone else can do better. If your party is unoptimized enough, a newb can play a truenamer and fit in.

Swordsage (Wu Jen/JPM) and bard (Sublime Chord) are not tier 3.

I am playing a factotum chameleon right now. Now admittedly, I am probably not playing it at the level at which you would play it, because the high-op borderline legal tricks that let Chameleons cast spells over level 6 aren't allowed in our game, but there are some days (especially the ones where I run out of high level spells, because chameleons get very few spells of their highest levels) when I wish I was playing a MT. At level 14, as a chameleon, I get 2 6th level spells per day. At level 14, a normal entry MT probably is getting 3 or more 6th level spells per day on each side of his casting progression.

There are not 2 levels of optimization, where one side has sword and board fighters and grapple monks and the other side regards anyone without 9th level casting as a servant. Optimization is a range. Most tables fall into the middle. Normal entry Mystic Theurge is undergunned in a high op party. It is entirely playable at most tables. Certainly, there are fixes that I use for MTs at my table when I DM. But it is simply not true that a MT is nothing but a heal-bitch, or that it cannot play in a tier 3 party.

[Tsvet]

I really don't know if I have the power to ask for this, but I'll try anyway.

Can we stop this "fight"? [Fight / discussion / conversation. Please, do not get smarty (not naming anyone here)]

Kenneth is right, afterall. The topic really got answered at the first 8-or-so replies.

I am not excluding the other posts or something like that; I really appreciate all the replies (including the ones giving credit to combos and the ones giving credit to RP). I could get the better of each post, since our group try to optimize while keeping it plausible.

I mean, a Illumian Bard 1/Druid 1/Cleric 1/Wizard 1/Mystic Theurge 6/Fochlucan Lyrist 10 IS a nice way to get into MT and FL, there is no way to not approve that; but we find hard to get something like that to work RPish. An Illumian, a being made out of sorcery and that love runes, could start a training into Bardish things, then go love nature. After that, let's go deity crazy! Meh, forget it, I'll go back to bookish arcanism.

The entry is valid. Just too hard to happen. It's a cool mosh, I have to admit.
And Little Brother, I DO respect everything you said, please do not get me wrong here. I read once your MT Handbook and I'll read again and again to get its concept better over the time; but the optimized early entry isn't something we would try.

So while getting that of Little Brother, from Shadowleaf I got something of the RP part.
I mean, the same way I find cool but would never play the B1/D1/C1/W1/MT6/FL10, I found your gnome cool, but would never play a 2-hand oriented fighter with low STR and high DEX.

Well, I'll keep reading the MT handbook to find another way to early-entry, because losing 3 levels of spellcaster really hurts; but do not judge me, I'll try to keep it real. (:

I am very, very thankful to all you people who posted here, but I am sorry if opening this thread generated such a discussion. Please, do not continue.

:T


[English is not my main language yadda yadda yadda sorry for any incoherence yadda yadda yadda]

[dextercorvia]

Cleric3/Wizard3/MTX is just a crummy way to pull off that archtype (even in a T3 game). If early entry is not allowed at your table, there are other options.

Bard or Beguiler that picks up a domain or two is probably more in line with the right level of power. Or if you want a bunch of low level spells, Chameleon offers you the chance to keep your CL up, and get some other abilities to round out your character.

Edit: to the op. What concept and power level are you looking for?

[Yorae]

If you have a "sacrifice a spell slot in order to do X" mechanic, a MT may be able to shine there, since they have loads of spell slots (Even though they are lower level). Like Arcane Strike, except not Arcane Strike since MTs are terrible in melee... well... actually, a half-cleric MT does have Divine Power.... if you can quicken or persist it and do something about the MT's extreme squishiness, you might have a workable gish. It only increases your MADness though, so take that as you will. Maybe you can buff yourself into usefulness.



Cleric3/Wizard3/MTX is just a crummy way to pull off that archtype (even in a T3 game). If early entry is not allowed at your table, there are other options.
Yeah, pretty much. You're going to have to take practiced spellcaster twice on top of it, too. =\

[dextercorvia]

If you have a "sacrifice a spell slot in order to do X" mechanic, a MT may be able to shine there, since they have loads of spell slots (Even though they are lower level). Like Arcane Strike, except not Arcane Strike since MTs are terrible in melee... well... actually, a half-cleric MT does have Divine Power.... if you can quicken or persist it and do something about the MT's extreme squishiness, you might have a workable gish.

Full casters get approximately as many spell levels as a theurge, but they can use their PrC to be more gishy and less squishy.

[Yorae]

A cleric with the divine magician acf and/or the spell domain might work for the flavor as well.

[dextercorvia]

A cleric with the divine magician acf and/or the spell domain might work for the flavor as well.

True, but that is undoubtedly Tier 1.

[Tsvet]

@dextercorvia: The concept? I really want to get off melee and go support. Control is fine, buff is good. A pinch of heals and blast doesn't hurt either.

@Yorae & @dextercovia: Divine Magician adds only one spell per spell level, and can't be used to step into MT so... thanks, but no thanks.

(:

[dextercorvia]

@dextercorvia: The concept? I really want to get off melee and go support. Control is fine, buff is good. A pinch of heals and blast doesn't hurt either.

@Yorae & @dextercovia: Divine Magician adds only one spell per spell level, and can't be used to step into MT so... thanks, but no thanks.

(:


Do you want to do Mystic Theurge, or do you want a character who can Buff, Control, Heal, and Blast (in that order, presumably)?

[Tsvet]

Both would be cool.
o_o

I want a MT, but what else can you throw, similar to that? (:

[dextercorvia]

Archivist doesn't lose casting levels, and can learn pretty much any spell (with a little bit of legwork. It gets a buff ability like Knowledge Devotion for the whole party.

[onemorelurker]

If you're going to play an Archivist, be sure to talk to your DM first about what spells you'll have access to. The fun of Archivists (archivism?) is that you can learn spells from any divine source, but if your DM only ever gives you scrolls of PHB cleric spells, you're missing out on a lot of the neat stuff.

[Yorae]

If you're into theurging for the versatility, you might like Eldritch Disciple. It's half warlock and half cleric. Among other things, it lets you heal with Eldritch Blast, which is pretty neat. You can use your warlock side for some moderate blasting and still retain most of your cleric buff/control/heal stuff.

[Tsvet]

Thanks a lot, I'll go take a look at those!

[Cieyrin]

The fact that a Swordsage could kick their ass until they get 8th-ish level spells, which, by the way, they only get on one side.

And, no, I say the someone gimping one's own build is a chump. Just like taking a half-casting PrC.

I'd just like to point out two facts: a) a non-early entry Mystic Theurge DOES have 8s on both sides and CL 19 by ECL 20, provided they aren't spontaneous casters, since Wizard 5/Cleric 5/Mystic Theurge 10 has casting equivalent of Wizard 15/Cleric 15 and thus 8th level spells.

b) Swiftblade is a 6/10 PrC and is a highly touted gish PrC despite the loss of 9s. Ordained Champion is 3/5 and works fairly well on the divine side of gishing. Plus there are a couple of half-casting PrCs that work well for dipping purposes. Would I necessarily go all the way with a PrC with such losses? No, it doesn't. Doesn't mean I can't grab up goodies or try a different tack for a character besides being the besterest caster I can manage.

As for theurging, it has its strengths in spell availability and buffing, which doesn't make it useless, just means you aren't aiming for face melting, you'll likely be more support, which has its own quiet strengths. You don't have the big guns but smaller munitions can still leave large enough holes if you choose them right. :smallwink:

[hex0]

Both would be cool.
o_o

I want a MT, but what else can you throw, similar to that? (:

Arcane Hierophant from Races of the Wild. MUCH better than MT.

Druid 4/Wizard (or Wu Jen) 3/Arcane Hierophant 10/Mystic Theurge 3 is the ideal build.

For the sake of Weirdness: Mystic Ranger 5/Knight of the Weave 3/Mystic Theurge 10 works. Works, but not optimally.

I like the idea of Geomancer and the fact that the drift lets you pounce (even Cheetah pounce!), but the fact that it only advances ONE spellcasting class is a bit meh.

Cleric 3/Wizard 3/Geomancer 10/Mystic Theurge 4 would be nice if you focus on Wizard casting. I mean, you'll still cast like a 17th level Wizard and 7th level Cleric at 20th level. I'd probably alternate the Cleric and Wizard levels to start for less suckage.

[Yorae]

b) Swiftblade is a 6/10 PrC and is a highly touted gish PrC despite the loss of 9s. Ordained Champion is 3/5 and works fairly well on the divine side of gishing. Plus there are a couple of half-casting PrCs that work well for dipping purposes. Would I necessarily go all the way with a PrC with such losses? No, it doesn't. Doesn't mean I can't grab up goodies or try a different tack for a character besides being the besterest caster I can manage.

Just noting, Swiftblade loses several levels of casting progression, but their class features are really powerful. And they can mimic at least one 9th level spell (Time Stop) without actually having 9ths. Ordained Champion's class features aren't as strong (well, unless you're making a Knight Vindicator / Ordained Champion flamestrike machinegun, but I'm pretty sure that wouldn't see actual play... right? =p), but is more or less the same case.

These are also gish classes, which don't necessarily need max-level spells to be effective if they are able to synergize their casting and melee effectively (which is what the class features are there for).

[hex0]

These are also gish classes, which don't necessarily need max-level spells to be effective if they are able to synergize their casting and melee effectively (which is what the class features are there for).

Which is why getting into the class from Trapsmith is popular, right?

[Yorae]

Which is why getting into the class from Trapsmith is popular, right?

..?

I've never heard of entering Swiftblade from Trapsmith. Is that a thing people are doing? Forgive my ignorance.

Edit: Oh, to get Haste as a 1st-level spell? I don't see how its that useful for early entry, though, considering you need 8 ranks in Disable Device / Open Lock to take trapsmith. Not sure why it's useful.

[mykelyk]

b) Swiftblade is a 6/10 PrC and is a highly touted gish PrC despite the loss of 9s.

Swiftblade is a 6/9 PrC actually so you get 9s (and the real time stop), you also get (ex) 3.0 haste, freedom of movement, non-illusion 50% miss chance that work on things that normally autohit all wrapped in a (auto-quickened) 3° level slot, all with a chassis of full bab and a decent hit dice with nice skill-point.

You gain also a mini-pounce e a sorta skirmish ability (that is not a precision damage).

A Wiz 6/Swiftblade 9/Abj Cham5 has 17bab, 9s and all of the above.

What MT gives you? More low level spell in exchange of your high ones?

[hex0]

..?

I've never heard of entering Swiftblade from Trapsmith. Is that a thing people are doing? Forgive my ignorance.

The creator of the class came out and said that he is ok with Haste from any source...which since it is an online article PRC that pretty much is errata. Trapsmiths get haste as a first level spell at level 1. :smallbiggrin:

[Yorae]

Swiftblade is a 6/9 PrC actually so you get 9s (and the real time stop), you also get (ex) 3.0 haste, freedom of movement, non-illusion 50% miss chance that work on things that normally autohit all wrapped in a (auto-quickened) 3° level slot, all with a chassis of full bab and a decent hit dice with nice skill-point.

You gain also a mini-pounce e a sorta skirmish ability (that is not a precision damage).

A Wiz 6/Swiftblade 9/Abj Cham5 has 17bab, 9s and all of the above.

What MT gives you? More low level spell in exchange of your high ones?

As an aside, my DM loves Swiftblade for gish NPCs. Miss chances on EVERYTHING. And True Seeing doesn't help. And I don't know Faerie Fire. =( I'm going to need to prepare a lot more True Strike, I suppose.

[Tsvet]

Just a quick-note: I got my DM to accept Precocious Apprentice to be used as an early entry (kinda tiering, I think, but oh well). His PoV is the same as mine: since it gives a 2nd-level spell slot from a school of magic the arcanist can use, the "When you become able to cast 2nd-level spells, you lose the benefit described above but retain the extra 2nd-level spell slot, (...)" part cleary (to us) point to the arcanist 2nd-level spell slot received from the feat, not from another source (be it druid, cleric or another arcanist class).


So, having this in mind, a clear Wizard 1/Cleric 3/MT 10 could be viable, right?

The thing is, what to do after those 14 levels? As I'm getting Cloistered Cleric variant, I thought in:
Bardic Sage 1 / Cloistered Cleric 3 / MT 10
So I can use Int to enable Bard spells (everything else still is Charisma based) and be a skill monkey, Wis to Cleric spells and Charisma to what still is based in charisma for Bard spells and more Turns.
Why I'm holding so much on Cleric? DMM. I love it's concept.
Why Bard? So I can step into Fochlucan Lyrist.
The thing is... HOW THE HELL can I get Evasion to enable FL?

If there is no "easy" way, what can I replace Bardic Sage / FL for? Losing 3 levels for Arcane spell hurts, but only 1 to Divine doesn't; I can live with it. But any other hit to my CL can cripple me, if compared to my teammates (I don't know what they are planning, but they like to do some non-game-breaking-but-good combos)

And oh, and yes:
-I'm trying to get a scholar-based character;
-Abilities/spells that grant fly or swim or burrowing are banned by DM.

Two motives to me not step into druid.

I'm sorry if I'm asking too much from you people, but thank you very much for every post. It's helping me a lot.

[Psyren]

The thing is... HOW THE HELL can I get Evasion to enable FL?


Do you have Magic of Incarnum? You need two feats from that book: Shape Soulmeld (Impulse Boots) and Open Least Chakra (Feet). Bind the boots to your feet chakra and you gain the class ability evasion. They can even be left on indefinitely, but you can't wear any other boots while you do so.

If not, you can sk your DM if a Ring of Evasion, despite not actually giving you evasion, will allow you to qualify.

[Yorae]

There's also the issue of learning the Druidic language. Most folks will say you should find a Blighter to teach it to you, which your DM may or may not go for (I'd make some gather information checks to find one and work some diplomacy to get him to teach you. You'll probably have to pay for it but, that's not so bad).

[Tsvet]

@Psyren: Hmm... I think my DM has; I'll get it with him in some hours from now and give it a look. Since I'll be human and get 2 flaws, it's seems pretty viable.


@Yorae: Since I'll be a scholar-type character starting at level 5 or so, I pretty much can convince him that a Loremaster taught me thru RP (and spent points accordingly).

Loremaster/ex-druid can taught Druidic language, correct?

[Yorae]

@Psyren: Hmm... I think my DM has; I'll get it with him in some hours from now and give it a look. Since I'll be human and get 2 flaws, it's seems pretty viable.


@Yorae: Since I'll be a scholar-type character starting at level 5 or so, I pretty much can convince him that a Loremaster taught me thru RP (and spent points accordingly).

Loremaster/ex-druid can taught Druidic language, correct?

Yup - no reason a Loremaster couldn't teach you or an ex-druid would magically forget how to speak the language.

How's this for a rough build?

1 Bardic Sage 1 - Precocious Apprentice
2 Cloistered Cleric 1
3 Cloistered Cleric 2 - Shape Soulmeld (Impulse Boots)
4 Cloistered Cleric 3
5 Mystic Theurge 1
6 Mystic Theurge 2 - Open Least Chakra (Feet)
7 Mystic Theurge 3
8 Mystic Theurge 4
9 Mystic Theurge 5 - ?
10 Mystic Theurge 6
11-20 Fochlucan Lyrist 1-10

If you are worried about having enough skill points for the ranks in perform, you might consider being a Human and taking Able Learner as your bonus feat.

Edit: Incrorect spelnlig

[hex0]

If you are worried about having enough skill points for the ranks in perform, you might consider being a Human and taking Able Learner as your bonus feat.

Edit: Incrorect spelnlig

Apprentice Performer feat instead.

Edit: Also, if you still want to use DMM, you could dip for Sacred Exorcist instead and play a Druid so you could take Arcane Hierophant in between MT and Fochularn Lyrist. :smallbiggrin: I'm loving how cheesy this build is!

[Urpriest]

Yup - no reason a Loremaster couldn't teach you or an ex-druid would magically forget how to speak the language.


That's not necessarily relevant though: in D&D learning a language doesn't require a teacher who speaks the language, nor does such a teacher help in any way. It's purely a question of where you're allowed to put your skill points.

[Yorae]

That's not necessarily relevant though: in D&D learning a language doesn't require a teacher who speaks the language, nor does such a teacher help in any way. It's purely a question of where you're allowed to put your skill points.

Right - I was working under the assumption that you couldn't put points in Speak Language to learn a secret language like Druidic unless you were specifically made privy to it.

Also, there's really no need for Arcane Hierophant - Druid explicitly doesn't fit the flavor. I'm also not really seeing any cheese... Nothing sketchy or exploitative, and the build is good and solid.

Edit: Oh, you meant dipping Sacred Exorcist for an extra turning pool - sorry, misunderstood. Yeah, that's a little cheesy. All the cool kids are doing it, though. And it's actually less cheesy in that he'd be trading a level of cleric progression for it.

Took me a bit to realize you meant the "Apprentice" feat from DMG2 - was looking for an "Apprentice Performer" feat. That could be situationally better that Able Learner (or if you wanted to be non-human). Apprentice (Entertainer) gives Diplomacy and Perform as permanent class skills and two bonus skill points as gravy (you do need to tithe 100 gp to your mentor every level, though). Able Learner would let you buy cross class at class skill rates and, since you have a level in bard, you max skill ranks in perform is still character level +3. No bonus skill points, but it works on any skill and it forces you to be a human (or a doppleganger).

[Tsvet]

Oh, nice one XD
Druid for some goodness (Trackless step for AH), then Sacred Exorcist for Turn Undead and DMM.
It's nice, but out of my concept.

So, I'll be a human with 2 flaws.
That gives me 4 feats and 4 extra skill points at first level, right?
Not that it will change something, but I'll take Shape Soulmeld at 1st level so I can spend my 3º level feat at something that needs pre-requisite [like Zen Archery (and yes, we discussed at table that Ranged Touch Attack is a kind of Ranged Attack, so it's viable).


Well... that is it, then? Are we done?
YAY!
Hahaha, big thanks, everyone!
Now I should ponder about my feats.
Heavy metamagic oriented? Maybe not?
I know that there is metamagic rods somewhere, gonna search it. But DMM + Nightsticks is kinda cool too.

Decisions, decisions...

[Little Brother]

Oh, nice one XD
Druid for some goodness (Trackless step for AH), then Sacred Exorcist for Turn Undead and DMM.
It's nice, but out of my concept.

So, I'll be a human with 2 flaws.
That gives me 4 feats and 4 extra skill points at first level, right?
Not that it will change something, but I'll take Shape Soulmeld at 1st level so I can spend my 3º level feat at something that needs pre-requisite [like Zen Archery (and yes, we discussed at table that Ranged Touch Attack is a kind of Ranged Attack, so it's viable).


Well... that is it, then? Are we done?
YAY!
Hahaha, big thanks, everyone!
Now I should ponder about my feats.
Heavy metamagic oriented? Maybe not?
I know that there is metamagic rods somewhere, gonna search it. But DMM + Nightsticks is kinda cool too.

Decisions, decisions...Theurges are pretty feat-intensive. I'd recommend going Illumian and using the Naenhoon to effectively get it, it'd be easier. Metamagic is kinda overrated, not too smooth on a Theurge build because it's harder to get multiple pools(though you still can go DLCS Sun Domain+Azurin Cleric/Planar Banishment ACF for two turn pools), but, from what I can tell, you're pro'lly better off with Ur-Priest if you don't like early entry. Actually, I kinda think you might like Druid 1(Fall at some point)/Bard 7/Ur-Priest 2(using Otyugh hole for Iron Will)/Sublime Chord 1/Fochlucan Lyrist 8/SC+1. Easier, less disputable(No early entry), though levels 8-12~ will kinda suck.

Hope that helps.

[Tsvet]

Those ideas are valid, sure; but don't have the "flavor".

Druid can be too animalistic, and Ur-Priest have to be evil. I know that there is an option to change your alignment between levels, but doing that can shot an arrow to my rp/flavor's knee.

Sorry for bothering your good mechanics with my flavor shenanigans.

Although I'll try to convince my DM to use DLCS Sun domain (it'll be hard, since it explicity says that is a Mystic class-only domain, but I can appeal to the deityless and devote to a cause cleric) with the Azurin racial cleric level. This even can make me save some gold on nightsticks. Heh.

Since he is proud of this book, maybe it will not be too hard to play as an Azurin.

[Heliomance]

I was fairly sure ur priests only had to be non good.

[Urpriest]

I was fairly sure ur priests only had to be non good.

Nope, we're definitely evil. Buahahahaha!

[Yorae]

Nope, we're definitely evil. Buahahahaha!

I'm lucky my DM lets us ignore alignment restrictions if we can change the flavor. I've got a LG character that uses it as simply a more exclusive sect of clergy that requires its members to forget everything they knew about divine casting. To that end, I substitute Spell Focus(Good/Evil/Law/Chaos/whatever makes sense for the deity) as a requirement. The default fluff is tasty as well, though.

(Looking at the sample ur-priest... why the heck does he have one inexplicable level of rogue?)

More on-topic, I'd also be careful about nightsticks. I think the reasonable consensus is that they shouldn't stack, though your DM may rule differently. Picking up some alternate turning methods + Extra Turning might be beneficial if you're going DMM, though.

[Urpriest]

I'm lucky my DM lets us ignore alignment restrictions if we can change the flavor. I've got a LG character that uses it as simply a more exclusive sect of clergy that requires its members to forget everything they knew about divine casting. To that end, I substitute Spell Focus(Good/Evil/Law/Chaos/whatever makes sense for the deity) as a requirement. The default fluff is tasty as well, though.

(Looking at the sample ur-priest... why the heck does he have one inexplicable level of rogue?)

More on-topic, I'd also be careful about nightsticks. I think the reasonable consensus is that they shouldn't stack, though your DM may rule differently. Picking up some alternate turning methods + Extra Turning might be beneficial if you're going DMM, though.

The level of Rogue is for skills. IIRC he doesn't have the Trickery domain.

[Tsvet]

I think this build is getting underestimated by my DM - but maybe this campaing setting will be way too hard or he knows me and knows that whatever I have the power to do, I'll never overuse it. But maybe this time will be hard to no use my tools...

Cloistered Cleric? Ok to learn Druidic and Lore will be treated as Bardic knowledge. Houseruled hard, maybe, but that saved me a lot of workaround (and I can't learn the Druidic language at level 1st, but that is a commodity). ACFs can be taken at-will when not overlapping (say, 2 cleric ACF that remove Turn Undead is a no-no).

So... I think this got waaay more OP than I wanted. If he ban this build, I don't have any reasons to be angry at all and I'll go back to a classical Cleric/Divine PrC.
Everything is going so... easy that I'm almost thinking in doing some mistakes.

Anyway, the build:

Human (2 flaws)
01 - Domain Combat Wizard - Alternative Source / Precocious Apprentice / Shape Soulmeld / Able Learner (Maybe) / Zen Archery*

(Don't know the domain yet. I know, no domain power, but the extra spell list and slot helps for more diversity)(Combat dropping Scribe Scroll for Zen Archery*)

02 - Cloistered Cleric Dragon Rebuker - Knowledge Domain (Extra Domain) / Any Domain (Probably Dragon. Isn't the best, but it fits in flavor) / Alternative Sun Domain (Turn Undead)

(If Divine Counterspell counted cleric caster level instead of cleric levels, I'd really jump into it.)(Dragon Rebuker (Dragon Magic AFC) is the same as the Azurian Cleric AFC, RAW works for a "double pool")

03 - Wizard OR Cleric - I don't know which. It doens't matter THAT much. But here I get the two Knowledges up to 6 ranks, enabling my character to...

04 - Mystic Theurge - ...MT at 4th.


I know that this was able due to some houseruling (or POV of RAW).

At 6 I get Open Least Chakra (Feet) and probably already can learn the Druidic Language. Overall, details-free:

01 - Domain Combat Wizard
02 - Cloistered Cleric Dragon Rebuker
03 - One of above
04 - Mystic Theurge
05 - Mystic Theurge
06 - Mystic Theurge
07 - Mystic Theurge
08 - Mystic Theurge
09 - Mystic Theurge
10 - Mystic Theurge
11 - Fochlucan Lyrist
|
20 - Fochlucan Lyrist


Well... that is it.
Got WAY to "cheesy" (I don't know those wordings but I think I used it correctly), so let's see everyone reaction at the table.

ps: Yes, I'm persistent with Zen Archery, but I'll appreciate the help to rays. I'll try to DMM, Reach Spell, Chain Spell and other thingies.

Any thoughts?

[Yorae]

show details 5:51 PM (1 hour ago)


[color=darkred]New Build

Looks pretty nice! Lose bardic music, but wizard casting is so much better you probably don't care. Being able to use Lore in place of Bardic Knowledge is a nice boon. If you want to use DMM with your arcane spells, may I suggest Alternate Source Spell (DMM only works with divine spells)? It's from Dragon #325 - you can cast an arcane spell as divine or vice versa, but it counts your CL as one less. That might be some additional incentive to take Practiced Spellcaster as well. You have a lot of flexibility with your spells. Something I've done with a Cleric NPC is DMM Reach + DMM Chain for lots of buffing for party members. Plus, Reach Chain Heal can really save your party's bacon if they get in over their heads. I'd probably try to play it as buffing / battlefield control.

Edit: Oops, reading comprehension fail, you already have Alternate Source Spell.

[Suddo]

Assuming we are just trying to get 9th level spells out of the cleric and we want to roll DMM then Prestige Paladin is a 1 level dip option to get turns as part of your pool. 1 more level gets Char to Saves but no more spell advancement so...

[Tsvet]

@Suddo:

From the Prestigious Paladin:

Turn Undead (Su) : For the purpose of determining his ability
to turn undead, a prestige paladin’s class levels stack with his
levels from all his other classes from which he has gained the
ability to turn undead. For instance, a 4th-level fi ghter/1st-level
cleric/2nd-level prestige paladin would turn undead as a 3rd-
level cleric.



Meh, not useful.