Mystic Theruge

[bluthunda]

Hey guys,
I'm making a lvl 11 MT 3 Cleric/3 Wizard Neutral Evil stats are
Str 11 Con 11 Dex 12 Cha 14 Wis 16 Int 18 was just wondering if i should make the wizard a specialist if so what school to specialize which to drop i'm partied with a lvl 12 Alienist and Dread Necromancer so i figured maybe specialize in either Transmutation or Evocation and drop Necromancy and Conjuration/Illusions.
The Alienist is a generalist Wizard and I'm taking the feats Practiced Spellcaster X2 Arcane and Divine along with Craft Wondrous Item and Craft Wand and then maybe lich loved for a little flavor. Any ideas on specializing?

PS also considering Evil and Death Domains for the Cleric side

[GoatBoy]

Best schools to drop are evocation, necromancy, and one of illusion/enchantment. Sounds like you want to do damage if you suggest specializing evocation, but conjuration actually has damage spells which are just as good, plus a lot of better spells.

Best schools to specialize in are conjuration or transmutation. Transmutation sounds good, since you can buff the nightmarish horrors your alienist friend calls.

[bluthunda]

With all the cleric spells is abjuration really worth having because i could see specializing in Trans and dropping Abjuration and Necromacy since most of those spells are in the Cleric list anyway and any idea on which Domains i should head are Death and Evil good

[GreyMantle]

I imagine you're aware of this, but Mystic Theurge (and any other PrC that combines two casting progressions) tends to be rather underpowered compared to an actual caster. The increase in spells/day is rarely worth the loss of casterlevels and highlevel spells. Even with Practiced Spellcaster, you're still a spell level behind, and you've already had to spend two of your precious feats.

Don't drop Conjuration. Ever. Even with an Alienist, there's still more than enough goodness in the school to allow for two casters. Evocation, OTOH, is wretched and will not be missed. Necromancy is also fairly useful, but it's not as thematically and mechanically varied as Conjuration, so you and the DN might be stepping on each other's toes. Unless (s)he focuses mostly on horde-raising and you focus on curses and debuffs. If you keep necromancy, enchantment is much better to drop than illusion is, as the enchantment school is essentially one spell with minor variations, and clever illusions have powerlevels of >9000.

Pee Ess: there's basically no reason to take the Death Domain. It doesn't give you any interesting extra spells, and its power is weaksauce and boring. Undeath, though, is not a bad domain. Evil is also pretty good.

[Keld Denar]

Conjouration is a lot more than just summons. It also has the Creation and Teleportation subschools. Those alone make it one of the best schools. Tack on Calling and Summoning and its hands down the best school. Don't ever drop it.

Also, just so you know, you are entering a pretty low op arrangement. You will be 1 to 1.5 full spell levels behind the other 2 casters. If you recognize this and are ok with it, that's fine. If you want, there are ways to do Mystic Theurge that are a bit more focused.

[Rapidghoul]

As has been said so far, Transmutation and Conjuration are the best two schools to specialize in. Evocation can largely be covered by Conjuration. Necromancy is easy enough to drop, especially if you have a Dread Necromancer in the game. For the last school, Abjuration is doable if you can rely on your cleric spells, like you say.
Transmutation is a safe bet to specialize in.

MT is a bit on the weaker side, as has been said, but it can be lots of fun. It also helps tone down two Tier 1 classes into a somewhat balanced character. It'll make the DN feel more important if nothing else.

Consider Tomb Tainted Soul (http://dnd.savannahsoft.eu/feat-2930-tomb-tainted-soul.html) for a feat. With the ability to spontaneously Inflict spells and a DN in the party, you'll never be short on "heals" this way.

[bluthunda]

ya I'm aware of the Under poweredness(word? probably not) its more for flavor in a world that was ravished by a Elder god?(Cyaegha) not many spell casters are left especially arcane ones and spellcasters that can do both i assume are completely unheard of so i think it will be fun to do both. Also what i believe is that i will be dropping Abjuration and Necromancy(dont wanna step on the DN's toes) and specializing in Transmutation since it has like the biggest spell list.


Edit:
Oh forgot to mention after spending some time with the current party the Tomb Tainted Soul feat will be given as the DN is making an Undead army and your always around the Undead

[MesiDoomstalker]

ya I'm aware of the Under poweredness(word? probably not) its more for flavor in a world that was ravished by a Elder god?(Cyaegha) not many spell casters are left especially arcane ones and spellcasters that can do both i assume are completely unheard of so i think it will be fun to do both. Also what i believe is that i will be dropping Abjuration and Necromancy(dont wanna step on the DN's toes) and specializing in Transmutation since it has like the biggest spell list.


Edit:
Oh forgot to mention after spending some time with the current party the Tomb Tainted Soul feat will be given as the DN is making an Undead army and your always around the Undead

While I absolutly love Transmutation school, I'd like to point out that Transmutation has the largest list because so many of its spells have opposites and counterparts. Slow and Haste. Flesh to Stone and Stone to Flesh. The animal buffs. Enlarge Person and Reduce Person. Etc, etc, etc.

Having played a MT before (using Ur-Priest so no lack of power) dropping Abjuration is not much of an issue. The only thing I was seriously missing was Mind Blank but the Alienest can cover that. I did Focused Transmuter dropping Abjuration, Necromancy and Evocation. Its up to you but I'd definatly drop Necromancy no matter what as you already pointed out, you don't want to step on his toes.

[bluthunda]

i guess what my real question is , is should i specialize at all or just go generalist?

[MesiDoomstalker]

i guess what my real question is , is should i specialize at all or just go generalist?

Specialize. Especially since you have other focused casters in your party.

[bluthunda]

okay thank you i believe the sheet is done now

[Little Brother]

Hey guys,
I'm making a lvl 11 MT 3 Cleric/3 Wizard Neutral Evil stats are
Str 11 Con 11 Dex 12 Cha 14 Wis 16 Int 18 was just wondering if i should make the wizard a specialist if so what school to specialize which to drop i'm partied with a lvl 12 Alienist and Dread Necromancer so i figured maybe specialize in either Transmutation or Evocation and drop Necromancy and Conjuration/Illusions.
The Alienist is a generalist Wizard and I'm taking the feats Practiced Spellcaster X2 Arcane and Divine along with Craft Wondrous Item and Craft Wand and then maybe lich loved for a little flavor. Any ideas on specializing?

PS also considering Evil and Death Domains for the Cleric sideAs I just said in the other thread, only chumps take three levels of the Therugable classes. You can use an Illumian with Heighten to qualify

You want to be an Illumian, so you're going to want to specialize. I recommend Diviner, honestly. Clerics have some really tasty ones, or you could weasel out of having to take a cleric level(Planar Touchstone:CoE(DLCS Sun Domain), and just take Archivist/Wizard. I personally prefer Cleric, 'cuz of all the Alternative Source Spell fun, but eh. Being a specialist, though, gives you more slots, and with Wizard/Cleric list being able to be placed in either one, your worries are gone.

You actually might want to go with the 9th level spells fighter trick on the cleric, then jump out of cleric, just advancing a Focused Specialist wizard, as you know every Cleric spell. You want the Magic domain and the Envy domain, and would want something like Cleric 1/Wizard 1/MT 3/Dweomerkeeper X/MT +7/Whatever Y, and use Envy domain for free SU wishes at low levels.

As a cleric, you can pick up a lot of the slack from the Wizard's banned schools. If you have another method of getting flight, through the Travel or Spell domains, you could probably ban Transmutation. Clerics do almost everything else there better. Honestly, drop Necromancy, period. It has nothing useful that Clerics can't do better. Building a theurge is different. Your classes can pick up each other's slack, so more specializing options are available.

I imagine you're aware of this, but Mystic Theurge (and any other PrC that combines two casting progressions) tends to be rather underpowered compared to an actual caster. The increase in spells/day is rarely worth the loss of casterlevels and highlevel spells. Even with Practiced Spellcaster, you're still a spell level behind, and you've already had to spend two of your precious feats.As I said, only chumps are a spell-level behind. You are a single level behind, or two if you can quallify CC's Bardic Knowledge as Bardic Knowledge, and use that with a druid dip to squeeze into Fochlucan Lyrist, so yeah. With Alternative Source Spell, you can lose Cleric levels so long as you nab a ninth level slot, so, yeah, you can dip around a lot and focus on the Wizard side.

Don't drop Conjuration. Ever. Even with an Alienist, there's still more than enough goodness in the school to allow for two casters. Evocation, OTOH, is wretched and will not be missed. Necromancy is also fairly useful, but it's not as thematically and mechanically varied as Conjuration, so you and the DN might be stepping on each other's toes. Unless (s)he focuses mostly on horde-raising and you focus on curses and debuffs. If you keep necromancy, enchantment is much better to drop than illusion is, as the enchantment school is essentially one spell with minor variations, and clever illusions have powerlevels of >9000.I dunno, if you take the Rune Domain, you have access to the Planar Binding tree, which is the important part, so it's not that bad. The lack of teleporting hurts, but you aren't missing as much as you think.

Pee Ess: there's basically no reason to take the Death Domain. It doesn't give you any interesting extra spells, and its power is weaksauce and boring. Undeath, though, is not a bad domain. Evil is also pretty good.Go with Deathbound if you want Necromancy. Also, don't do necromancy. Theurges have so many better options.

I really need to make a handbook for theurges... I'll do that over Christmas Break.

[MesiDoomstalker]

I dunno, if you take the Rune Domain, you have access to the Planar Binding tree, which is the important part, so it's not that bad. The lack of teleporting hurts, but you aren't missing as much as you think.

I'd like to point out that Planar Binding line are the most broken spells in Conjuration, along with Gate, and even then they are highly dependent on a cooperative DM. The DM is the one who deteremines what a bound Outsider will do or will not do. So while it has the greatest potential it also has the greatest limititations.

On the other hand, banning Conjuration will loose the ridicoulously useful BFC spells such as the Fog spells and the mass short range teleportation spells. Also long range teleportation. Plus loosing no-save, no-SR, blasting with powerful rider effects (which unfortunatly to allow a save). Theres a reason Conjuration is considered one of the best schools and Planar Binding is not the sole reason.

[Little Brother]

I'd like to point out that Planar Binding line are the most broken spells in Conjuration, along with Gate, and even then they are highly dependent on a cooperative DM. The DM is the one who deteremines what a bound Outsider will do or will not do. So while it has the greatest potential it also has the greatest limititations.

On the other hand, banning Conjuration will loose the ridicoulously useful BFC spells such as the Fog spells and the mass short range teleportation spells. Also long range teleportation. Plus loosing no-save, no-SR, blasting with powerful rider effects (which unfortunatly to allow a save). Theres a reason Conjuration is considered one of the best schools and Planar Binding is not the sole reason.Travel Domain, I believe.

Still, I'm saying it is feasible, not recommended. And Planar Binding/Gate are the most important parts.