Guides for Armour?

[RagnaroksChosen]

Are there any guides to Armour or Armour specialization?

Actually for that matter any really defensive character build guides?


Was thinking about some kinda dwarf armour specialist... I figured there must be some way to make a super defensive dwarf.

no tob class/feats are ok
no dragon.

[Big Fau]

Are there any guides to Armour or Armour specialization?

Not really. Armor becomes largely irrelevant around level 7+ if your DM is at least reading the stat blocks and CR-system properly.


Actually for that matter any really defensive character build guides?

As the Aelryinth wars taught me, Turtling is the last thing you want to do unless you are a full caster and can provide those same buffs to your allies. For this reason, the best defenses are the spellcasters.

[Darrin]

Are there any guides to Armour or Armour specialization?


I'm working on one, but it's not quite post-able yet.



Actually for that matter any really defensive character build guides?


Thay may depend a lot on what you mean by "defensive". If you mean just very high AC, there are some theoretical builds that get quite absurdly high, but there are lots of ways to kill things without making an attack roll. Then there's "miss chance", which is more useful in higher-level games, but more difficult to optimize. And then you can get into stuff like regeneration and immunities and things like the IKEA Tarrasque/Emerald Legion which is almost entirely immune to death.



Was thinking about some kinda dwarf armour specialist... I figured there must be some way to make a super defensive dwarf.


With Crusader off the table... I'd recommend:

Incarnate 5/Ironsoul Forgemaster 10/Deepwarden 5

Put your essentia into Crystal Helm (deflection bonus to AC), Incarnate Avatar (insight bonus to AC), and use Shape Soulmeld to grab Wormtail Belt (natural armor bonus). You can use Fellmist Robe for some miss chance, Spellward Shirt provides some SR, Strongheart Vest for ability damage/drain, and there are a few other soulmelds with various immunities.

[sonofzeal]

Not really. Armor becomes largely irrelevant around level 7+ if your DM is at least reading the stat blocks and CR-system properly.
I've heard that claim before, but every time I've gone through the numbers it hasn't worked out that way. The value does decrease at higher level, but the tipping point is somewhere above lvl 10. I'd estimate 12, at the earliest, but a lot depends on the campaign and what you're fighting. If every enemy's a caster, or a pseudo-caster, then of course AC is pretty much irrelevant at any level. But if you're fighting a wide range of enemies, then I think you'll find that a quite large percentage of the various Monster Manuals involve enemies who use conventional attack rolls heavily, and that a heavy armor class's AC can be kept quite competitive through to fairly high levels - and that the difference in survivability against those attack-roll monsters is significant at the levels of AC these characters might possess.

[darkdragoon]

Was thinking about some kinda dwarf armour specialist... I figured there must be some way to make a super defensive dwarf.

The special dwarf armors don't really do much other than shuffle AC between the base amount and Dex bonus. Actually kind of pointless if you are a Deepwarden or similar class.


Deepwarden and Dwarven Defender have some interesting things but they're pretty limited.

[RagnaroksChosen]

Ah I see guys.


I just know there are a ton of feats and what not that have to do with defensive things. Miss chance/armour ac increase/ increases to FF ac etc etc.


I was thinking dwarf cleric 1 / fighter 4 then wasn't sure where to go.

Dwarf cleric so I can get some of the divine feats... but where my charisma is low ehh i was debating about dropping cleric.


So does any one have any advice about this or other nifty tricks you can do with some of the more defensive oriented feats/classes prcs what not.

[Coidzor]

In general, the best defense (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=104002) and healing (http://web.archive.org/web/20080117015939/http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=900334) is preventing the enemy from attacking (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=394.0) either by killing him or some status effect. Like the 2nd level of fear (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125885)or higher, for example.

Also, if you neglect your offense to focus on defense, you'll run into dwarven defender and monk syndrome where you're not enough of a threat to justify focusing on or killing until after the rest of the party is taken out.

[Big Fau]

healing (http://web.archive.org/web/20080117015939/http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=900334)

OW4's original concept has been expanded upon. (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1520.0)

[Person_Man]

I started writing one a long time ago, and my frustration with the lack of support for armor led me to write the homebrew Magitech Templar (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=176276) (Iron Man), which has been used by several Playgrounders with good results. I'm also re-writing the Hammer of Moradin (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20040807a&page=4) (Thor-ish), and will be posting it once I get a chance to play test it (or sooner, if there's any real interest in it).

Darrin's suggestion to use Ironsoul Forgemaster is a very good one.

There's also Binder 1 or 3/Whatever X/Deepwarden (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20040807a&page=4) 2 is also a fairly good combo. Binder 3 (or Binder 1 with the Improved Binder feat) gives you the Dahlver-Nar vestige, which grants 1/2 your Con to AC, a good Save or Daze effect, immunity to Wisdom damage, drain, madness, insanity, and confusion effects, and the ability to force 1 target to take 50% of your damage. (Similar to the psionic Share Pain power, but with no duration and usable at will once every 5 rounds). Deepwarden gives you Con to AC (again).

[missmvicious]

Armor, I've found, works best at lower levels.

IMHO, here are some good ideas for low-level characters with high AC and srs Armor:

1. Put a 14 in DEX. It will give you some Touch AC without wasting a good stat.
The toughest armor you can get with starting GP is probably going to be Mundane Chain Mail, which has a Max Dex of +2. (However, if you're plead with the DM and put ranks into Craft Armor-smithing, you could argue that you made your own armor, which is cheaper than buying it, which means you could get MW Studded Leather... more on why that's a good idea later.)

2. Grab your Chain mail, and live lean. Your weapon is a club. You eat what you hunt. You drink from streams.

3. For good measure, pick up Dodge and Mobility. Easy to do at L1 if you are Human or take some Flaws.

4. As soon as you get some gold, invest in a MW Spiked Heavy Shield and pick up the Improved Shield Bash Feat, so you don't lose AC when you attack with it. Now your Armor is doing some of the fighting for you.

5. Sell your Chain Mail and get some MW Spiked Armor. Doesn't particularly matter what kind. Kill some things that have treasure and go find yourself a Wizard. It's time to get some magic armor. Look up Roaring and Retaliation Armor/Shield. Combined, it will work to turn many ranged and melee attacks against your opponent. I call it Punk Armor. :smallbiggrin:

6. MW is the key. Once you have MW armor, you can have it enchanted. Find a copy of the Magic Item Compendium and become a kid in a candy store. As long as you can find a way to amass huge amounts of money to keep adding magic buffs to your armor, armor can do half the fighting for you, heal you, and still protect you.

I'm not saying it's optimal... but if armor is the route you wish to go, then this is how I would (and sometimes do) do it.

[Coidzor]

OW4's original concept has been expanded upon. (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1520.0)

Ooo, thank you for the head's up. :smallbiggrin:

[RagnaroksChosen]

Thanks Person man
and missmvicious(your step 4 is very interesting).

[missmvicious]

Thanks Person man
and missmvicious(your step 4 is very interesting).

Really? Thanks! I'm glad I could help! I usually don't have very good build advise to give. :smallbiggrin:

Here's another thought... and this may not be RAW, but our group has never found anything that says you can't do this...

Masterwork Clothing.

When it comes to enchanting clothes as if it were armor, it's said to have a base AC 0 (as read on pg. 203 Barkskin). Clothing is cheap, has no DEX penalty, and can be worn under your armor. Cheesy? Maybe, but not completely ridiculous. Here me out:

1. A Peasant's Outfit costs 1 SP. To add the MW honorific to any armor, simply add 150 GP to it's cost. MW Peasant's Clothes = 150.1 GP

2. Get +5 Magic bonus to the MW Peasant's Clothes = 25,000 GP

3. Grand Total = 25,150.1 GP

4. Wear it under your +5 Chain Mail (25,250 GP) for a cool +14 to AC. If you still have that 14 to DEX, you're now at 10 [base] + 14 [armor] + 2 [DEX] = 26 AC before you even add your shield. Add on a +5 Heavy Steel Shield (+2), and you are now boasting 31 AC.

Not bad for just an armor junkie.

[00dlez]

Really? Thanks! I'm glad I could help! I usually don't have very good build advise to give. :smallbiggrin:

Here's another thought... and this may not be RAW, but our group has never found anything that says you can't do this...

Masterwork Clothing.

When it comes to enchanting clothes as if it were armor, it's said to have a base AC 0 (as read on pg. 203 Barkskin). Clothing is cheap, has no DEX penalty, and can be worn under your armor. Cheesy? Maybe, but not completely ridiculous. Here me out:

1. A Peasant's Outfit costs 1 SP. To add the MW honorific to any armor, simply add 150 GP to it's cost. MW Peasant's Clothes = 150.1 GP

2. Get +5 Magic bonus to the MW Peasant's Clothes = 25,000 GP

3. Grand Total = 25,150.1 GP

4. Wear it under your +5 Chain Mail (25,250 GP) for a cool +14 to AC. If you still have that 14 to DEX, you're now at 10 [base] + 14 [armor] + 2 [DEX] = 26 AC before you even add your shield. Add on a +5 Heavy Steel Shield (+2), and you are now boasting 31 AC.

Not bad for just an armor junkie.

This isn't the case. Someone correct my terminology if it is incorrect but I believe the logic is RAW.

The +5 is an enhancement bonus to the armor bonus granted by the chain mail. The +4 is enhanced to +9, but the two combined are treated as an armor bonus.

The same is true of the clothes. The +5 is an enhancement bonus to the +0 armor bonus of the clothes, totaling +5.

Armor bonuses do not stack, so said character would only benefit from the higher of the two, in this case the +9, despite having some super protective undies on.


For a contribution of my own:
As many people are discussing, in a high level, high power, optimization is all campaign, armor tends to become trivialized because monsters that are built to hit things will hit you regularly regardless of your armor.

If it is not one of these campaigns (as this is a low optimized solution), grab an 18 CON at your favorite point-by shop, take the Dwarven racial bump to 20, put any level points into CON, get a belt of CON, and take Improved Toughness in every feat slot. Also be a raging barbarian. I think there's a PrC called Bear Warrior or some such that will also help with this.

Enjoy having a silly amount of HP. Before adding magic, rage, temp HP etc, you are easily over 170 at 10th level. How many does the cleric have? 70?! Bwahaha.

[Calanon]

Blink + Displacement + Chain Unlucky makes it so that your opponent has... well no real chance in hell of hitting you :smallcool:

[Little Brother]

Chahar-Aina and Dastana are pretty pro. Just sayin'.

[Snowbluff]

Actually, as a Druid or Cleric you can stack some impressive armor buffs, as well as Vigor. This is a great example of how T1 are better than lower tiers.

Druids get my vote for having Carbon Copy Animal Companion. "I has mai bufffzzz and mai din0sorz haz it 2!!!"

Another thing is Crusader/(Cleric or Ur Priest)/RKV, which gets healing strikes and buffs. Uses ToB, though.

[RagnaroksChosen]

Really? Thanks! I'm glad I could help! I usually don't have very good build advise to give. :smallbiggrin:

Here's another thought... and this may not be RAW, but our group has never found anything that says you can't do this...

Masterwork Clothing.

When it comes to enchanting clothes as if it were armor, it's said to have a base AC 0 (as read on pg. 203 Barkskin). Clothing is cheap, has no DEX penalty, and can be worn under your armor. Cheesy? Maybe, but not completely ridiculous. Here me out:

1. A Peasant's Outfit costs 1 SP. To add the MW honorific to any armor, simply add 150 GP to it's cost. MW Peasant's Clothes = 150.1 GP

2. Get +5 Magic bonus to the MW Peasant's Clothes = 25,000 GP

3. Grand Total = 25,150.1 GP

4. Wear it under your +5 Chain Mail (25,250 GP) for a cool +14 to AC. If you still have that 14 to DEX, you're now at 10 [base] + 14 [armor] + 2 [DEX] = 26 AC before you even add your shield. Add on a +5 Heavy Steel Shield (+2), and you are now boasting 31 AC.

Not bad for just an armor junkie.

Thats what I get for posting while talking to my boss. I ment step 5 the armour enchants

[tyckspoon]

This isn't the case. Someone correct my terminology if it is incorrect but I believe the logic is RAW.

The +5 is an enhancement bonus to the armor bonus granted by the chain mail. The +4 is enhanced to +9, but the two combined are treated as an armor bonus.


This is correct. Getting clothes/a robe enchanted as armor is functionally identical to buying a slot-changed Bracers of Armor. The only armor bonuses you can stack are those from the dastana and chahar-aina, because they explicitly break the normal stacking limitation (also because of that same combining enhancement+armor bonus for purposes of stacking, a +5 Dastana stacks with a +5 Chahar stacks with a +5 base armor. I'm pretty sure this is the way to get the highest AC from Armor bonus alone without devoting class levels to something like Ironsoul Forgemaster.)

[Leon]

Chahar-Aina and Dastana are pretty pro. Just sayin'.

Armoured Greatcoat (although only Stacks with Light Armour)