The Urge to Theurge - A Theurge Handbook WIP

[Little Brother]

Okay, my first handbook, and I just wrote it at midnight, so it's probably crappy.

EDIT: Thrice-Dead-Cat did a lot of editing for clarity and convenience, so here's his update, with some very slight tweeking from me. Anything in some weird color is his commentary.:


Introduction:
Theurges are my favorite builds. I love the options, and I absolutely love the ability to throw massive amounts of spells at everything. Five minute adventure day? Nope, I can throw a spell a round, and last for as long as I want.

As a Theurge, you want some means of getting two types of "casting" per level. After you have your two base classes, your best bet is to hurry into a prestige class and to get both types of casting at each level. The bar bones is the Mystic Theurge (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/mysticTheurge.htm) found here and the DMG. It's nothing fancy, but it gets what you want most: more spells for both your arcane and divine casting at each class level.

Although this guide lists other options, the terms "caster" and "casting" refer to all sorts of different magical spells and abilities. The list includes things like the Magic of Incarnum classes, the three Tome of Magic classes, psionics (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/index.htm) (also found in The Expanded Psionics Handbook), and even a brief mentioning of Tome of Battle: The Book of Nine Swords. For the most part, this guide is about different X-meets-Y things.

While you can try to get other things like an almost perfect Base Attack Bonus for more attacks in a round, you'd be better off asking the Playground or Google for a "Gish" guide, even though things like Eldritch Knight (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/eldritchKnight.htm) are basically "Fighter+caster." Things like the Arcane Trickster (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/arcaneTrickster.htm) that mix sneaky backstabbing with casting are similarly beyond the scope of this guide, but options are listed for completeness' sake.

Levels and Actions
So, you're a magical man (or woman) twice over, but losing out on the newest spells from leveling up in one class hurts. The benchmark is usually to compare yourself to a single-class version of one your two base classes. Wizard 3/Cleric 3/Mystic Theurge 10 has as many spells as a Wizard 13 and a Cleric 13, but he still probably can only cast one or two spells a round. Meanwhile, a Wizard 15 just got his 8th level spells on line compared to the first's 7th level spells. And no matter how many spells you have known and ready for use, you still can't use them all at once without feats, items, or yes, even other spells.

While a lot of spells are powerful, you probably are only going to use one (maybe two, with Quicken Spell) in a round. Thus, it helps to "rush" into your prestige class of choice. This is a dangerous road, as not every single early entry trick or ability will work at each table. In general, ask your DM first before you do it because your mileage will vary. Most of these "early entry" tricks will be marked by an * for ease of use.

Legend
This guide is color coded for convenience. Generally speaking... DeepSkyBlue is the best around.
Blue is good or above average.
Black is average.
Purple is below average, but workable for one thing or another.
Red is the really below average or the "worst."
*Asterisks* mean that this is highly variable with different groups. A lot of these involve getting into prestige classes sooner than the normal Wizard/Cleric. Your Mileage WILL Vary.

*What can I do with my magic?*

You have a very big tool box with all of your spells. Spells like charm person, dominate person, and teleport change the fight and day so very much. Some of these spells have saves, spell resistance (SR), weak range (touch or "close"), or some other drawback. Others are higher level than you have access to, but a rare few "just happen."

The below are different ways to play your Theurge. Each is doable, but some require more books or resources than others.

Battlefield Control- Generally, these types of spells are all about changing the battle or conflict in some big way. Sometimes it's using teleport-type spells to get your people in combat or getting enemies out of combat. Sometimes it's a well placed Grease spell to make the enemies fall on their butts. Generally, you're looking at either the Conjuration school for movement types and Illusion and Enchantment for trickery and stealth in so far as wizard schools go.

Skill-monkey- Spellcasters are known for their bags of tricks. It's not out of the question, but doing so requires a lot of spells known (and used) and either a lot of INT or skill points per level to be doable. A personal favorite of mine, admittedly.

Blaster- Not impossible. Rolling for damage can be very fun, but the difference between "enough damage" and "Overpowered broken" damage is a hard line to place. Generally, anyone can do damage in a turn, so save your spells and abilities for other things.

Buff-monkey: Buff spells help your team. Either one person or the entire group! It may be the rogue or fighter that does the killing blow, but being able to give them that extra strength from Bull's Strength means you did your part, too! For wizard schools, your best bets are Transmutation for offensive power and Abjuration for defensive power. There are gems all around, though. Haste and everything teleport-y are conjuration.

Healing- Yes, you may be part cleric. Yes, you have wizard casting to throw whatever you want at whatever is trying to ruin your day, but being "proactive" is easier. A well placed heal or cure spell can save a friend from bleeding out in a round while some form of restoration or "morning after" magic can undo that nasty STR score damage that hit your fighter the last round. Let's be honest, though, a level 1 Orc Barbarian can easily do as much as a 5th level Cleric's best heal. Having this "OH CRAP!" buttons on hand is nice, but not always a top priority.

Minion master- There are two quick ways to have "pets:" Summon Monster X or Rebuke Undead with some means of creating them. Druid based Theurges can also use Summon Nature's Ally, but those are the basics of it. A straight wizard, though, can do this entirely better than you, though.

The best part about being a theurge, though is that it can do every single one of these things. You are versatile in the extreme. It doesn't mean you will do all of these things, but it's possible if you have a lot of books to use or your group is starting at higher levels.

Generally, though, pick a focus. Even though you are a Theurge, you only have so many feats and skill points at a time. You need some of these to do your shtick, some to get into prestige classes, and others to get better feats.

Rules of Theurges
Rule 1: Do not lose 9s
rule 2: DO NOT lose 9s

[Little Brother]

Races and stats and stuff:

Due to popular request, this post is getting expanded, and might be a touch confusing.


*Races, Stats, and Classes*

Due to popular request, this post is getting expanded, and might be a touch confusing. Generally, you want to start out with a high casting stat. If you rolled your stats, your two highest should be in your two casting stats. There are ways to insure you only need one stat to power your spells, but doing so often requires diving through multiple books to get that online.

Below are some general things in regards to both physical and mental stats.

Physical stats
Stats:
Strength: You are a WIZARD! You have a lot of magic, but not a terribly great base attack bonus. While touch attacks are generally easier to land than normal attacks, STR only really gives you a bonus in melee and carry capacity. Generally, this is a "last pick" stat, so dump it if at all possible.
Dexterity: Dexterity is the poster child of stats. It helps to determine your ranged attacks (spells and otherwise), your AC (not getting hit means not taking damage), initiative, and your reflex saves (Again, taking less damage). If you have high stats, something like a 14 or 16 is good, but anything above a 10 means you're set.
Constitution: Constitution is another good stat to have a fair amount in. It's helps determine your Fortitude saves, your HP (multiclassing between multiple casters means you probably have a ton of d4s or d6s as you level up), and your Concentration skill checks. As with Dexterity, anything above a 10 is good, but you usually want it to be higher for more HP as you level up. Generally, you want the higher modifier here

Mental stats
In general, pick two of these and forget the third. Sometimes you can get by with just one of the three, but that really depends on your base class "ingredients." Aim for a starting stat of at least 16 in your two casting stats, but only ever put your level up points in one of the two of them. Personally, I prefer arcane magic to divine magic, as do I, so go for whatever fuels that type of magic and make that stat your "primary" ability score.

Classes and combos

In general, this guide is about adding divine and arcane magic together. As such, I'll list most of the base classes available to you in DND 3.5, plus a few prestige classes that give their own casting.

NOTE:This guide, at least currently, is focusing more on Arcane/Divine, so I won't go in-depth on the others until I am satisfied with the completeness of it.

Generally, prepared casters like clerics, druids, and wizards have an easier time being a Theurge as they get spells one level before spontaneous casters like Sorcerers and Favored Souls do. If you're want to focus on higher level spells, general look at a Wizard/X or Cleric/X combination.

Arcane Casters

PHB Classes
Wizard: Higher level spells at odd levels, can safely specialize for more spell slots. This is all good.
Sorcerer: Slow progression, fewer spells known, no saving graces, really.
Bard: Qualifies you for Sublime Chord and Fochlucan Lyrist, but in and of itself? Hell no.

Fast progression classes
Nar Demonbinder:Not as good progression as the SC, but really, the spell list is gorgeous. Works for a Cha-SAD build.
Sublime Chord: I need to find a color better than sky blue that doesn't give people seizures! This thing is crazy! Fast progression, Cha-based for those SAD builds, CL loops and shenanigans, and so on. This thing is amazing. Also, it requires Profession: Astrologer, so, along with your Divine Casting, like Favored Soul, you can totally play this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W5tMEuhBWx4) non-stop, or anything else out of that album, really.

Divine CastersCommentary and organization Arcanist, added to by me.

Base Classes
Cleric: Higher level spells at odd levels, effectively just as good as Wizard. It is notable for tricks to get early access to high-level spells almost as easily as the Ardent. "But LB," I can hear you saying, "You've said this fifty times, we get it already!" It needs to be said again, though, it is that important
Evangelist Cleric: Spontaneous cleric with spells known mostly based on whatever deity you worship. Stupidly powerful using Pantheon rules, given that you gain a crap-ton-and-a-half domains. Also, SAD. And makes the Favored Soul join the Sorcerer crying in a corner.
Favored Soul: The Sorcerer for Divine casters, except worse... ugh total skip...
Spirit Shaman: Mediocre at best. Sorta toes the line between red and black. Not as bad as Favored Soul, much more versatile, but, really, the Druid list is bad. I mean, it does have some of the win buttons, like Shapechange, but overall, just save yourself the pain, and use the Archivist. If you EVER think about using this with anything but Nar Demonbinder or Sublime Chord, I will personally hunt you down.
Shugenja: Basically, see above. Meh list, nothing real going for it.
NOTE: In some of the arena contests, including Test of Spite if my horrible memory serves, the Sorcerer was close enough to tier one that it didn't matter, was hugely powerful. If it makes a poor Theurge, why should its red-headed stepsiblings be decent?
Archivist: DING DING DING! We have a winner! pretty much Wizard for Divine casters. God-class. Would be absolutely superior to the Cleric in every way, if not for DMM.
Druid: Good for Arcane Heirophant and a personal favorite due to wild shaping. Still inferior to Cleric/Archivist, but a solid choice
Fast progression classes
Ur-Priest: Place this class on its alter that it rightfully deserves to sit upon. You absolutely cannot go wrong. Only downside is you can't get Dweomerkeeper, or steal SLAs, but those are unneeded if you're doing it right.
Specific Theurge stats:Physical stats
Stats:
Str: You are a WIZARD! If you are in melee, you deserve the very painful death coming your way. If you can pick up your spellbook, it’s high enough. Dump to hell and back
Dex: Affects AC, but you can buff yours magically. Affects ranged touch attacks. I really like this stat, but you’re MAD, so you can ignore this.
Con: Affects HP and concentration. You need it. You do not need a +5 modifier, but whatever.

Classes and combos:
NOTE:This guide, at least currently, is focusing more on Arcane/Divine, so I won't go in-depth on the others until I am satisfied with the completeness of it.
Here are the more synergistic class combos, and the important stats.

Sorcerer/Favored Soul or Spirit Shaman: Unless you're using early entry tricks, avoid this you lose 9th level spells. Instead, go with Sublime Chord or Nar Demonbinder on the arcane side. Either way, on anything like this:

Int: Skills are nice...
Wis: DCs are nice
Cha: Yeah, I hear your casting stat is slightly important. Just a little...

Wizard/Archivist
Int: It is a casting stat for wizards AND archivists. Max it
Wis: It is one of your casting stats. Slightly less important than intelligence, nowhere near. If doing that, max it, otherwise, a decently high score is good, but not too high, you need the stats.
Cha: Turn undead, if you took the Planar Touchstone, so it's nice. Otherwise forget about it

Wizard/Cleric:
This is the best base-class Theurge. Why not Wizard/Archivist, you ask? It is mostly SAD. No. The reason is you can get early 9s, and nab Dweomerkeeper.
NOTE: After some more game-play, I have concluded that, while better if you are allowed serious cheese, the Dweomerkeeper is only slightly better than SAD, so, while superior, it is by only a tiny margin. Go with whatever you think is cooler, you shouldn't notice much of a difference, beyond slightly less spending money.
Int: It is a casting stat for wizards. Max it
Wis: It is one of your casting stats. Slightly less important than intelligence, IMO, unless you’re using early access to Wish to go crazy. If doing that, max it, otherwise, a decently high score is good, but not too high, you need the stats.
Cha: Turn undead. You like this. It is fun. You are MAD. I like a 12-ish in here, but do what you want here.
Druid/Wizard:
Int: It is a casting stat for wizards Max it
Wis: It is one of your casting stats. Slightly less important than intelligence, IMO.
Cha: This does precisely nothing. Forget this stat exists.
Th rest can be lumped into one of these.

Some special ones:
Sorcerer/Binder
Int: Skills are your friend.
Wis: Doesn't help anything.
Cha: This affects everything you do. You NEED this.
Wizard/Erudite
Int: It is a casting stat for wizards AND Erudites. Max it
Wis: Will save, I guess...
Cha: Yeah, no.
Races:
LA 0
Illumian: You have the easiest time entering early. Best race, hands down. I prefer Naenhoon, for ease of early entry, but the Krau-based ones have some nice bonuses, too.
Kobolds: Ah, Kobolds, I love them and all the cheese that accompanies them. Probably won't fly, but whatever.
Human: It’s a human. You can’t go wrong here.
Elf: Normally, I hate elves, but Gray Elves get a bonus to intelligence and a penalty to mostly dump stats, AND you get access to the Elven Generalist. Good, really good.
Lesser Aasimar: Bonus to two of your most important stats? Yes, please!
Dragonborn: These guys are an odd lot. They’re okay on a lot, but far from ideal. Stick this on an elf, though, and these guys are great.
Magic-blooded: A penalty to wisdom. Only think about if you’re going something like Archivist/Sublime Chord. Otherwise, forget it exists.
Unseelie Fey: See above. Also, +2 Dex, -2 Con hurts, unless...
[Color=blue]Arc[/url]tic: +2 Con, -2 Dex, resistance to cold, couple other goodies. 95% of the time, Con is vastly more important than Dex. Also, makes Grey Elves actually really good. +2 Int, -2 Str is a GREAT trade. Dragon material, so might not be an option.
Primordial Half-Giant: LA 1 for -2 Strength, -2 dexterity, +4 intelligence, and +4 charisma? At will invisibility? Helloooo, nurse! If LA buy-off is allowed, you want this. Otherwise, the LA hurts enough that it is merely average. Any Wizard(Or Sublime Chord. Or sorcerer, I guess if you like that)/Cha-based Divine MUST use this, especially if you use Magic-Blooded, too.

Most other races are eh at best. Avoid LA like the plague in most cases. You lose caster levels as is, you can't afford more.

[Little Brother]

Your build, itself:

Class features:
Yes, a lot of your classes have nifty class features, no you don’t care about them, beyond Turn Undead. You are here for the spells. Nothing else really matters, so I’m not gonna bother. Exception: Duskblade: The ability to channel touch attack with, say, Harm? Not bad.


ACFs:
A lot of them are crap. I’m only covering the useful ones:


Wizard:
Focused Specialist: You are a Theurge for versatility. Clerics have all of the good spells for, say, Necromancy, they have most of they have most of the good Transmutations and Conjurations with the right domains, but, most importantly, you can use Alternative Source Spell to prep cleric spells in those slots. USE! Divination is my personal favorite, but Conjuration or Transmutation work.
Spontaneous Divination: Take it, period.
Elven Generalist: This is the only reason to be an elf. If you are one, take this.

-Domain Wizard If you are a generalist, you are taking this. Period.
Not familiar with any more important ones that I can take, so whatever.


Cleric:
Cloistered Cleric: You like skill points. Use.
Divine Restoration: Pretty good if you take domains for spell(Hint: That’s one of the reasons you’re here), so yeah. Pretty nifty.
Spontaneous Domain: Yes. Flexibility is what you want. You aren’t a heal-bitch you are the goddamn batman. This helps.
Divine Magician: Okay… Take only to cover schools you’ve banned.
Planar Banishment: It’s okay, depending on your campaign, I guess.

Any thoughts or more decent ACFs?


Feats:
Earth Spell: How you get ninth level spells early. Damn good.
Heighten: See above. I always take this first level. It is how you get into Mystic Theurge early enough
Planar Touchstone: Catalogues of Enlightenment: Want a domain power, but you took your domains for nice spells? Worry no more! My favorite use for this is to be an Azurin or take Destroy Undead/Planar Banishment, then take the DLCS Sun domain. Two turn pools. Otherwise incredibly useful.
Metamagics in general: You’re a caster. This makes your casting better. USE IT!
Divine MetamagicGreat, but if you’re an illumian(As you should be if you can), it’s kinda redundant. IF you can’t, be a human and have your first two feats be DMM and Heighten. Similar, less versatile effect.
Extra Slot: Crazy on anyone. Why the Envy domain is so good, by the way. Wishes at level three? Useless. Free wishes by level 9? Amazing. DM’s face when you PAO into a dragon? Priceless.
Alternative Spell Source: You are taking this. PERIOD. It is why theurges rock so much. Due to pestering, here's a more in depth explanation:


Alternative Source spell lets you prep arcane spells as divine and vice-versa. This means several things: One, you can cast wizard spells at -1 CL to ignore AFC. It also lets your cleric side benefit from, say, Arcane thesis, and lets you use DMM as a wizard! Basically, any fun toys one class gets, both do. You absolutely cannot miss this. It's Dragon, so some DMs will knee-jerk ban it.

It also lets you enter "Early" without minor cheese, by going Wizard 3/Cleric or Archivist 1(Or vice versa), and you can then 2nd level arcane spells as divine spells.

You know, just get Dragon 325. It's got all sorts of good Theurge feats, beyond even this gem.
Theurgic Specialist: Basically, when casting from your specialist school(Meaning you are a wizard. No complaints here), you combine all of your spellcasting class's CL. Only amazing on certain builds, but can do help out anywhere, especially on Ur-Wizards, who frequently hurt for CL on the Ur-Priest side.
Shape Soulmeld(Impulse Boots): And
Open Lesser Chakra(Feet) give you evasion to qualify for Fochlucan Lyrist. If you are going that way, you had better take these. If not, forget them, take two levels of Divine Oracle if you need to.

Those Dragonlance feats that change your casting stat: Can be nifty, can be useless. Take your pick. Do note that these are not in the "Official" DL book, IIRC, so, strictly speaking, they are 3rd party.

Other Dual-progression stuff:

Ultimate Magus(CM): Prepared Arcane/Spont Arcane.
Cerebremancer(XPH): Psionic/Arcane
Eldritch Theurge(CM): Invoke/Arcane
Psychic Theurge: Divine/Manifester
Noctumancer(ToM): Shadowcaster/Arcane
Yathrinshee(PgF): Arcane/Divine. Complete trash, loses a bajillion caster levels
True Necromancer(LM): Arcane/Divine.
Soulcaster (Meldshaping/Arcane, MoI pg. 142)
Soul Manifester (Meldshaping/Psionics, Mind's Eye
Noctumancer (Mysteries/Arcane, ToM pg. 125)
Anima Mage (Binding/Arcane, Binding/Divine or Binding/Psi, ToM pg. 50)
Tenebrous Apostate (Binding/Divine, ToM pg. 63)
Jade Phoenix Mage (ToB, Arcane/Initiating)
Ruby Knight Windicator (ToB, Divine/Initiating)


Theurge Traps:
These classes look like theurges, requiring multiple casting sources, but don't advance both.

Geomancer: Arcane/Divine, but only advances one
Fiendbinder/Brimstone Speaker, but half truespeak, so not much of a loss.
True Necromancer: Gives up too many levels of each. Terrible.
Yalfa-something: Crappy dark elves... Far to many levels lost


Classes to avoid
Sorcerer
Why it sucks: The only thing it's SAD with is Favored Soul, which has so many better things to be with.
What it wants to be: Sublime Chord
Verdict: If you really need a base arcane caster that's not bard, it's acceptable. Still REALLY bad.

Beguiler
Why it sucks: Archivists and correctly-domained Clerics already have everything this thing does. Even a Bloodlined Sublime Chord/Nar Demonbinder can.
What it wants to be: Bard or Wizard
Verdict: What little it has that the wizard doesn't do just as well, an Archivist can. Ignore.

Dread Necromancer
Why it sucks: Because its schtick was being an arcane Necro-Cleric. You have all the clericy-goodness it has, and the wizardy-ness the cleric lacks.
What it wants to be: Deathbound Cleric/Necromancer
Verdict: You can do anything it can better. Laugh at anyone who suggests it.

Warmage
Why it sucks: Because blasting sucks, you need a lot of PrCs to make it work, and anything it could do in this build, a Sublime Chord can do better.
What it wants to be: Sublime Chord/Rainbow Warsnake
Verdict: Revoke/deny any relationship with anyone who suggests this.

Special Mention: Dweomerkeeper
Looks like Mystic Theurge, only advances one, but, come on! It's the Dweomer Keeper, SU spells, spontaneousness, other sweetness. Can't go wrong.

Can't think of more off the top of my head, sorry.
________________________________________________
Gear:
Stat-boosting items: Kinda obvious. Casting stats are kinda important.
Pearls of Power/Karma Beads:Typical caster items.
Ring of Freedom of Movement: Defensive item. Nifty and convenient

Otherwise, just think about items. There are plenty of items.

I'd like opinion on this.

[Little Brother]

Common Prestige Classes:

Mystic Theurge: Basic premise of the handbook. Probably one of the worst full theurge classes, but it works. It's the easiest. If you are theurging from a low level, you will use this.
Fochlucan Lyrist: Mystic Therurge, but better. Hard to get in, though. You will use this if you are going Sublime Chord. Otherwise, typically not worth it.
Nar Demonbinder: Fast progression, damn good list. This is best with Ur-Priest. Works anywhere, though.
Sublime Chord: More fast progression. Good class. Spontaneous, though, so no Alternate Source Spell without Arcane Preparation feat.
Ur-Priest: You know what this is. It's too obvious to forget about here.
Divine Crusader: Charisma based fast-progression divine caster. Limited list(VERY), but good for SADing a build. USE WITH SUBLIME CHORD OR SORCERER, OR FORGET IT!


Builds/Resources:

In an apparent attempt to make me look totally incompetent(:smalltongue:), TDC has provided this list, as well:

Other GuidesThis guide covers a "bare bones" approach to dual-classing. Here are some more to help you out in spell choices!

Dictuum Mortem's Handbooks: All of them? (http://dictummortuum.blogspot.com/)

Treantmonk's Guide to Being GOD (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19873034/Treantmonks_guide_to_Wizards:_Being_a_God)

A very tongue-in-cheek look at 3.5 wizard casting with handy links to other guides. Old, yes, but still useful. He later did works on the various schools in regards to specializing and what to drop/take in spells at each level.


Abjuration (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19870634/Treantmonks_guide_to_Abjuration:_Gods_Tools)

Echodork on Conjuration (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19863086/The_Conjurers_Handbook)

Treantmonk on Conjuration (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19869058/Treantmonks_guide_to_Conjuration:_Gods_tools?pg=1)

Tsuyoshi's Guide to Divination (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871402/Tsuyoshis_Guide_to_Divination_Spells:_G-ds_Eyes) - Same time frame as Treantmonk's first works, but not done by Treantmonk himself.

Beguiler Handbook, mainly for Enchantment and Illusion spells (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872218/-_The_New_Beguiler_Handbook_-_2008)

Treantmonk on Wizard Evocation Spells (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19869246/Treantmonks_guide_to_Evocation_Spells:_Gods_tools)

Dread Necromancer's Handbook, for Necromancy spells (http://community.wizards.com/bleak_academy/wiki/Dread_Necromancer/Overview) - circa 2009
General Necromancy Handbook (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872726/Revised_Necromancer_Handbook) - circa 2006

CantripN's Old Guide to Transmutation Spells (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19870586/CantripNs_Guide_to_Transmutation_Spells:_Gods_Gift s) - Circa 2008

I'd link to stuff from Brilliantgameologists, but they are in the process of moving boards.

New forum is here, though Brilliantgameologist's Newest? Forum (http://www.minmaxboards.com/)
Tyndmyr gave us a very nice and mostly complete list

Dual Progression Classes:
Mystic Theurge(DMG): Arcane/Divine
Arcane Hierophant(RoW): Arcane/Divine,Wildshape tastiness
Folchuran Lyricist: Arcane/Divine
Eldritch Theurge(CM): Invoke/Arcane
Yathrinshee(PgF): Arcane/Divine. 6/6 prog in 9 lev.
True Necromancer(LM): Arcane/Divine.

Accelerated Progression Classes:
Ur-Priest(BoVD): Become a cleric in ten levels.
Sublime Chord(CA): Go from 3rd level arcane to maxed in ten levels.
Beholder Mage(LoM):Full wizard or sorc casting in 10 levels. Race must be a true beholder.
Divine Crusader(CM): Divine spellcasting in ten levels for one domain only.
Apostle of Peace(BoED): Divine spellcasting in ten levels. Requires all the vows, though.
Nar DemonbinderFor reference, Apostle of Peace is really terrible, IMO.
Runescarred berserkers are worth mentioning, but don't technically cast, so they don't work in theurges.

Feel free to share more


Builds
Illumian
Cleric 1/Wizard 1/Mystic Theurge 3/Dweomerkeeper 4/Mystic Theurge +7/Dweomerkeeper +4
Using the 9th level spells trick and alternative Source Spell. You cast as a level 19 Wizard, and level 11 wizard(Unless you're allowed to change caster progression part-way through, in which case Wizard 17 Cleric 13), but you still have 9th-level cleric spells.

Bard 1/Druid 9/Sublime Chord 1/Fochlucan Lyrist 9
Not as much fun, but Wildshape and double nines are nice. Probably more optimal ways of doing it, but eh.

Bard 1/Cleric 1/Wizard 1/Mystic Theurge 6/Druid 1/Fochlucan Lyrist 10

Never actually crunched this one out, but seems pretty good:
Bard 1/Druid 5/Arcane Heirophant 4/Sublime Chord 1/Fochlucan Lyrist 1/Arcane Heirophant 6/FL+2

Gives you 11th level Wildshaping, 18th level Druid casting, and 10th level Sublime Chord casting. Pretty good, overall.

More better thought out builds should be up by this afternoon:

Three very elegant and very nice builds.

Bard 7/Abjurant Champion 2/Divine Crusader 2/Sublime Chord 1/MT 8 will get you dual 9s, Cha-SAD.

- Bard 7 gets you the +5 BAB and the martial weapon (rapier) needed for Abjurant Champion
- AC 2 gets you to +7 BAB, which you need for DC
- You qualify for Sublime Chord at 10, but you need another DC level to get into MT
- MT 8 advances DC casting to 10 and SC casting to 9, resulting in dual 9s.


Bard1/FavoredSoul9/SublimeChord1/MysticTheurge9
With the initiate of Milil gives you good Inspire Courage and such, and Southern Magician takes care of qualifications.

Neraph
Charisma Caster 4/Eldritch Knight 3/Abjurant Champion 1/Divine Crusader 1/Mystic Theurge 9/Abjurant Champion +2
Using the Neraph's martial weapon proficiency to qualify for Eldritch Knight/Abjurant Champion, and uses Versatile Caster(Combined with a bloodline for something like Sorcerer) for early entry.
Feel free to post more.

And here's a build using True Necromancer that doesn't absolutely suck. I am quite impressed

True Necromancer Theurge
Wizard/1 Cleric/3 MT/10 TN/6

Arcane:16 (8th level spells)
Divine: 17 (9th level spells)

Prerequisites:
Rebuke Undead
Death Domain
Any non-good
Knowledge Arcane/Religion 6 @ 4th level then 8 at 14th level
Spell Focus (Necromancy) @ 15th level

Easy to fulfill but damn near annoying to find a god/demon lord/archdevil that doesn't suck whom gives the Death Domain... Most would just craft there own domain but me? Nah i'm a classic man... :smalltongue:

I recommend Divine Defiance (Sacrifice turnings/rebukes to counter spells as an immediate action? Oh god yes! :smallamused:

Dirty/questionable tricks:

Using the Cloistered Cleric lore-thingy to qualify for Fochlucan Lyrist
Using Shape Souldmeld: Impulse Boots/Bind lesser Chakra to qualify for Fochlucan lyrist.
Using the 9th level spell trick for all the domain slots, and for prepping stuff like Dictum early, and being able to abandon cleric safely.
You actually don't need a level of Binder for Anima Mage. You just take the bindy-feat thingy and Anima Mage gives you levels by itself. Also, improved Binding gives you Zceryll.
Kobold Shenanigans for early entry.

[Pilo]

Too bad you forgot one of the best theurge: Arcane hierophant (Race of the wild) + his guide : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19868490/The_Arcane_Hierophant_Examined

[Eldan]

Tangent:
Do you people really pronounce Theurge so it rhymes with "urge"? I usually pronounce it Greek-ish.

[Heliomance]

What's so good about Alternative Spell Source?

[Little Brother]

Tangent:
Do you people really pronounce Theurge so it rhymes with "urge"? I usually pronounce it Greek-ish.I do, as do the people at the Dragon Magazine(See Dragon 325).

And, pilo, don't have Races of the Wild on me right now. I'll update it soon.

From what I can remember off the top of my head, a good build is something like Druid 5/Bard 1/Hierophant 4/Sublime Chord 1/Fochlucan Lyrist 9.

[limejuicepowder]

I didn't read the full guide but one quick recommendation: change the yellow font before someone's eyes fall out of their head.

[JadePhoenix]

First of all - fix the title. It's supposed to be 'the urge to theurge', I believe.
Second, your formatting is awful. Specially that yellow font. Ugh.
Third, you mention 'you are a wizard'. Why? Are only wizards allowed to theurge? :smallannoyed:
Fourth, you mention a penalty to Wisdom in Archivist builds. But Archivists need both Int and Wis to cast spells.
Fifth, your guide is very basic and yet you mention alternative spell source, highly cheesed out, like it's something everyone uses. That won't fly in every table. In fact, it won't fly in most tables.

[Viktyr Gehrig]

From what I can remember off the top of my head, a good build is something like Druid 5/Bard 1/Hierophant 4/Sublime Chord 1/Fochlucan Lyrist 9.

Where are you getting Evasion?

[Eldan]

There are a few suggested entries for the Lyrist. One is the simple,but not very good Bard/Rogue/Druid, but I'd avoid that. There are a few other ways to gain evasion: technically a ring of evasion qualifies, but the DM might veto that. There is a soulmeld (Impulse boots)which gives you evasion, though you need two feats, one to open a chakra as well. Finally, there's a few prestige classes that grant evasion, though few of these seem really worth it. There's four levels of Combat Medic, from the top of my head, and then a few rogueish classes that don't really offer any advantages. And the Shadow Template, which is probably worth it if you can get buy-off.

[Lord Il Palazzo]

I've got to say, I'm hoping the "Work In Progress" aspect of this guide means there's a lot more detail to come. You've only mentioned a small number of the classes that can be used in a Theurge build (I'm personally a fan of a Sorcerer based build, which you haven't mentioned at all.)


Tangent:
Do you people really pronounce Theurge so it rhymes with "urge"? I usually pronounce it Greek-ish.

Trying to think of other ways to pronounce "Theurge" made me realize that "Mystic: The Urge" sounds very much like a cutrate World of Darkness knockoff. I like it, for some reason.

[Tyndmyr]

You'll probably want my theurge list (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=132452).

It may not be entirely complete, but the thread itself should list basically all the theurge options.

[Little Brother]

I didn't read the full guide but one quick recommendation: change the yellow font before someone's eyes fall out of their head.Will do.

First of all - fix the title. It's supposed to be 'the urge to theurge', I believe.

Second, your formatting is awful. Specially that yellow font. Ugh.Suggestions, then?

Third, you mention 'you are a wizard'. Why? Are only wizards allowed to theurge? :smallannoyed:Two reasons: One, it is more of a role than a class, and two, they are the best. Yes, you can go Sorcerer/Favored Soul, but it is typically less efficient than Cleric/Wizard.

Fourth, you mention a penalty to Wisdom in Archivist builds. But Archivists need both Int and Wis to cast spells.No, I referenced a bonus to Charisma and some SLAs in a Sublime Chord build. Difference. Secondly, they don't need wisdom except for bonus spells. Stick a 10 in there and you can forget about it.

Fifth, your guide is very basic and yet you mention alternative spell source, highly cheesed out, like it's something everyone uses. That won't fly in every table. In fact, it won't fly in most tables.Two things here, too: You appear to have an odd definition of cheese. You are saying losing caster levels for an expanded spell list is cheese. Every theurge that can should use it. It is simply the best option. A handbook doesn't care if your DM won't allow DMM, Uncanny Forethought, or even Scribe Scroll. The job of a handbook is to explain how to make a good, in my case, theurge.

Where are you getting Evasion?
Eldan said it all

There are a few suggested entries for the Lyrist. One is the simple,but not very good Bard/Rogue/Druid, but I'd avoid that. There are a few other ways to gain evasion: technically a ring of evasion qualifies, but the DM might veto that. There is a soulmeld (Impulse boots)which gives you evasion, though you need two feats, one to open a chakra as well. Finally, there's a few prestige classes that grant evasion, though few of these seem really worth it. There's four levels of Combat Medic, from the top of my head, and then a few rogueish classes that don't really offer any advantages. And the Shadow Template, which is probably worth it if you can get buy-off.

I've got to say, I'm hoping the "Work In Progress" aspect of this guide means there's a lot more detail to come. You've only mentioned a small number of the classes that can be used in a Theurge build (I'm personally a fan of a Sorcerer based build, which you haven't mentioned at all.)Yes, there are some coming, though mostly Sublime Chords make better theurges.

Trying to think of other ways to pronounce "Theurge" made me realize that "Mystic: The Urge" sounds very much like a cutrate World of Darkness knockoff. I like it, for some reason.Heh. You're right.


You'll probably want my theurge list (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=132452).

It may not be entirely complete, but the thread itself should list basically all the theurge options.Sweet, thanks. Will add.

Also, I'm putting up a couple more builds. If anyone else has any, feel free to add them.

[darksolitaire]

That list seems to be missing Sapphire Hierarch (Cleric/Incanum), Eldritch Disciple (Invoker/Cleric), Green Whisperer (Bard/Druid, 5 levels) and Mind Mage (Arcane/Psionic). The two latter come from the Dragon Magazine.

As for accelerated casting, Nar Demonbinder and even Knight if the Weave could be listed for the sake of completeness.

Edit: doh, that list was edited in '09....nevermind.

[Psyren]

Here are some more:

Soulcaster (Meldshaping/Arcane, MoI pg. 142)
Soul Manifester (Meldshaping/Psionics, Mind's Eye (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20060217a)
Noctumancer (Mysteries/Arcane, ToM pg. 125)
Anima Mage (Binding/Arcane, Binding/Divine or Binding/Psi, ToM pg. 50)
Tenebrous Apostate (Binding/Divine, ToM pg. 63)


You may also want a special section on Theurge Traps - classes that look like Theurges but really aren't. (i.e. they require two base classes but only progress one.) These classes do, however, get pretty nice in gestalt. Some of these include:

Geomancer (Divine/Arcane, only advances one)
Brimstone Speaker (Divine/Truenaming, but does not advance utterances)
Fiendbinder (Arcane/Truenaming, does not advance utterances)

[Little Brother]

Here are some more:

Soulcaster (Meldshaping/Arcane, MoI pg. 142)
Soul Manifester (Meldshaping/Psionics, Mind's Eye (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20060217a)
Noctumancer (Mysteries/Arcane, ToM pg. 125)
Anima Mage (Binding/Arcane, Binding/Divine or Binding/Psi, ToM pg. 50)
Tenebrous Apostate (Binding/Divine, ToM pg. 63)


You may also want a special section on Theurge Traps - classes that look like Theurges but really aren't. (i.e. they require two base classes but only progress one.) These classes do, however, get pretty nice in gestalt. Some of these include:

Geomancer (Divine/Arcane, only advances one)
Brimstone Speaker (Divine/Truenaming, but does not advance utterances)
Fiendbinder (Arcane/Truenaming, does not advance utterances)I was mostly just doing Arcane/Divine, but I could do stuff for others. Will be up in a moment. But the Theurge trap section is important, I can't believe I didn't think of it. Thanks!

[dextercorvia]

In my Neraph build, you should also mention that you need Versatile Spellcaster to get into Eldritch Knight after only 4 levels of Sorcerer or Bard.

[JadePhoenix]

Suggestions, then?
Bolding helps. Spacing as well. Get your titles in different sizes. Spread the text out a bit more.

Two reasons: One, it is more of a role than a class, and two, they are the best. Yes, you can go Sorcerer/Favored Soul, but it is typically less efficient than Cleric/Wizard.
Well, you were not talking about the role, you were talking about the class. You specifically mentioned an Int score.
You may focus on 'the best' options if you want, but seriously, you don't need a handbook for those. A wizard is powerful enough without it and if someone really wanted the most powerful... they wouldn't be playing a theurge for starters. By restricting your handbook to wizards, you're simply restricting your audience.
Also, it's not just Sorcerer/Favored Soul. How about Mystic Ranger/Suel Arcanamach, for starters? Or Dread Necromancer/Cleric (maybe with Dynamic Priest)? Or Beguiler/Archivist? There are plenty of theurge options, even if you restrict yourself to arcane/divine, that are not based on Wizard and Sorcerer.

No, I referenced a bonus to Charisma and some SLAs in a Sublime Chord build. Difference. Secondly, they don't need wisdom except for bonus spells. Stick a 10 in there and you can forget about it.
I'll concede your point here, though I still don't think it's worth it.

Two things here, too: You appear to have an odd definition of cheese. You are saying losing caster levels for an expanded spell list is cheese. Every theurge that can should use it. It is simply the best option. A handbook doesn't care if your DM won't allow DMM, Uncanny Forethought, or even Scribe Scroll. The job of a handbook is to explain how to make a good, in my case, theurge.
My opinion is that a handbook should care about this. The best handbooks only leave the most crazy stuff apart - call it a 'cheese factory' or something like that.

[Little Brother]

Bolding helps. Spacing as well. Get your titles in different sizes. Spread the text out a bit more.I'll get on it, then.

Well, you were not talking about the role, you were talking about the class. You specifically mentioned an Int score.I said "You are a WIZARD" on the strength score. As in, why does a caster have strength?

And for intelligence: Wizards and Archivists both need it, plus you will need it if you want into Fochlucan Lyrist.

You may focus on 'the best' options if you want, but seriously, you don't need a handbook for those. A wizard is powerful enough without it and if someone really wanted the most powerful... they wouldn't be playing a theurge for starters. By restricting your handbook to wizards, you're simply restricting your audience.Theurges are powerful. What is the most powerful mechanic in the game? Spells. Having access to more spells(As in known, not slots) is more powerful

Also, it's not just Sorcerer/Favored Soul. How about Mystic Ranger/Suel Arcanamach, for starters?Both stop progressing at 10th level, a Suel Arcanamach requires BAB six, so are you saying go Mystic Ranger six/Suel Arcanamach 1 or two/Mystic Theurge 4? Or waste more levels? It's so bad I don't even know where to start. It's like taking Mystic Ranger beyond 10th level.
an Or Dread Necromancer/Cleric (maybe with Dynamic Priest)?Because there is no synergy there whatsoever. You give up a lot to be a theurge, but you get next to nothing from that, so it's a bad deal. Why bother?
Or Beguiler/Archivist?Because the Archivist already has almost all of its spells, and because Nar Demonbinder is a better option. A beguiler is a fine class, but it would drag down the Archivist part.

There are plenty of theurge options, even if you restrict yourself to arcane/divine, that are not based on Wizard and Sorcerer.I agree. Favored Soul/Sublime Chord, Favored Soul/Nar Demonbinder, Ur-Priest/Nar Demonbinder, Cleric/Nar Demonbinder, Druid/Nar Demonbinder, Wizard/Ur-Priest, Wizard/Druid, Wizard/Cleric, Wizard/Archivist, Sublime Chord/Divine Crusader(Which I just remembered I need to do an entry on), and I guess you could shove sorcerer into the wizard parts, badly.

I'll concede your point here, though I still don't think it's worth it.The point of a theurge is to have spell-slots out the rear. With Arcane Preparation/Alternate Source Spell, you don't even care anymore.


My opinion is that a handbook should care about this. The best handbooks only leave the most crazy stuff apart - call it a 'cheese factory' or something like that.Not true at all. This is a handbook for optimization. If you want to run some gimped build, I will do nothing to stop you, but you really have no reason to be reading a guide.

[JadePhoenix]

I'll get on it, then.
I said "You are a WIZARD" on the strength score. As in, why does a caster have strength?
For plenty of reasons, actually, but that's beside the point. Wizard =/= caster. Being a theurge does not mean you can't be a gish.


And for intelligence: Wizards and Archivists both need it, plus you will need it if you want into Fochlucan Lyrist.
Mainly what I meant is that a 'stats' part when so many classes are available is pointless.


Theurges are powerful. What is the most powerful mechanic in the game? Spells. Having access to more spells(As in known, not slots) is more powerful
And it's still less powerful than getting spells earlier. You are two whole levels behind when building a theurge, unless you go hardcore into cheese that disputable by RAW and not 100% likely to be accepted in most games.


Both stop progressing at 10th level, a Suel Arcanamach requires BAB six, so are you saying go Mystic Ranger six/Suel Arcanamach 1 or two/Mystic Theurge 4? Or waste more levels? It's so bad I don't even know where to start. It's like taking Mystic Ranger beyond 10th level.
So that's why that combination needs space in a handbook, because it's hard to pull out. Did I make my point clear? You're narrowing down your handbook for, well, no good reason, actually.



Because there is no synergy there whatsoever. You give up a lot to be a theurge, but you get next to nothing from that, so it's a bad deal. Why bother? Because the Archivist already has almost all of its spells, and because Nar Demonbinder is a better option. A beguiler is a fine class, but it would drag down the Archivist part.
So point it out in the handbook. Explain when each combination is bad and why. And... Beguiler would drag down the Archivist? Sorry, are you joking or something?


I agree. Favored Soul/Sublime Chord, Favored Soul/Nar Demonbinder, Ur-Priest/Nar Demonbinder, Cleric/Nar Demonbinder, Druid/Nar Demonbinder, Wizard/Ur-Priest, Wizard/Druid, Wizard/Cleric, Wizard/Archivist, Sublime Chord/Divine Crusader(Which I just remembered I need to do an entry on), and I guess you could shove sorcerer into the wizard parts, badly.
The point of a theurge is to have spell-slots out the rear. With Arcane Preparation/Alternate Source Spell, you don't even care anymore.
So you did listen to something. That's a start.


Not true at all. This is a handbook for optimization. If you want to run some gimped build, I will do nothing to stop you, but you really have no reason to be reading a guide.
I think you're mistaken. People read handbooks when they are building actual characters for actual games. All-holds-barred optimization as a thought experiment is fun and all, but that's a) not the reason people do handbooks and b) pointless since Khan found out the Pun-Pun trick

[Aegis013]

Surprisingly, nobody has suggested Domain Wizard ACF for Wizard. It's really good. Especially in conjunction with Elven Wizard 1 sublevel (mentioned in the Handbook) for Generalist Specialization.

[Little Brother]

For plenty of reasons, actually, but that's beside the point. Wizard =/= caster. Being a theurge does not mean you can't be a gish.D4 hitdice, worst BAB, no armor, makings of a great gish, right? Especially since you're already so MAD.

And it's still less powerful than getting spells earlier. You are two whole levels behind when building a theurge, unless you go hardcore into cheese that disputable by RAW and not 100% likely to be accepted in most games.You mean one level, and no. Heighten makes a spell a higher level, period. There is no way to argue this. Nothing questionable.

So that's why that combination needs space in a handbook, because it's hard to pull out. Did I make my point clear? You're narrowing down your handbook for, well, no good reason, actually.For a very good reason: It's a headache to expand it for options that are unoptimized, and thus defeat the purpose of the guide.

So point it out in the handbook. Explain when each combination is bad and why. And... Beguiler would drag down the Archivist? Sorry, are you joking or something?Hmmm, okay. I Will go write another section it.

And it drags it down because you're giving up a level, class features, and prestige options for something you already have.

So you did listen to something. That's a start.And it doesn't change the fact that sorcerers are the worst you can be without tacking on something completely superfluous.

I think you're mistaken. People read handbooks when they are building actual characters for actual games. All-holds-barred optimization as a thought experiment is fun and all, but that's a) not the reason people do handbooks and b) pointless since Khan found out the Pun-Pun trickAnd if I was talking about no-holds barred, I'd be telling people to go CC1/Ardent 4(Practiced manifester)/Thrallherd 1 with the Envy domain, max knowledge religion, and go sacrifice a large village to wish for a Ring of Three Wishes, or CC5/Dweomerkeeper 4 with the 9th level spells trick to get a free(Su) wish, for said ring. I'm not. This is light-weight stuff, unless your idea of a wizard is one of them throwing around fireballs instead of using good spells, Wilders NOT being educated, and monks being relevant.

And I will include the domain wizard in there. I thought it was kinda implied with generalist.

[JadePhoenix]

plenty of stuff

OK, man. We obviously don't agree on what a handbook is supposed to be or even about how optimization should be used as a tool. I'm done here. Hope you do manage to get a good handbook out of all this, though.

[Gnaeus]

I do not recommend using any of the advice in this guide, unless you like getting books thrown at your head by the DM. Every single thing on it should be under the dirty/questionable tricks subheading.

[Viktyr Gehrig]

Eldan said it all


There are a few suggested entries for the Lyrist. One is the simple,but not very good Bard/Rogue/Druid, but I'd avoid that. There are a few other ways to gain evasion: technically a ring of evasion qualifies, but the DM might veto that.


Evasion
This ring continually grants the wearer the ability to avoid damage as if she had evasion. Whenever she makes a Reflex saving throw to determine whether she takes half damage, a successful save results in no damage.

Moderate transmutation; CL 7th; Forge Ring, jump; Price 25,000 gp.

It isn't a matter of the DM "vetoing" it. It does not work per RAW. The ring does not grant you Evasion, as a class feature or otherwise; it allows you to "avoid damage as if you had evasion". That's like trying to get in through Divine Oracle 2.

Impulse Boots work, though. That's clever.

[Geigan]

You really need to remember to point out books and page numbers for stuff. People come to handbooks to learn how to play something and if you're pointing out these tricks from various books without actually telling them the books(or even better the page numbers), they'll probably skip right over your handbook. Also there is another handbook on Mystic Theurges here (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19873054/The_Mystic_Theurge_Handbook). It has some good tricks and could help with writing your own handbook.

On the subject of tricks and such for getting into Mystic Theurge and other PrCs early, you'd best lay them out explicitly so players may lay them out to their DM in turn. If someone showed up to my table with some bit of RAW tomfoolery and couldn't even explain to me how it worked without having me google it, you can bet I'm not going to let him do it if I have to be the one to figure out how it works. Early entry tricks are shenanigans. There's no getting around that even if they're RAW or not. I like shenanigans at my table and have brought said shenanigans myself sometimes. But using these sorts of tricks will always get you're character a looking over from the DM before you get to use it and it would be helpful if you can actually explain it properly to the DM before he approves it or disapproves it.

All that said I wanted to mention the Versatile Spellcaster+heighten trick for spontaneous theurges which as always has it's contentiousness RAW-wise. The only truly SAD spontaneous theurge would be a sorcerer/shugenja off the top of my head, but I only know that because that's the one I've been planning on playing in my next campaign.

The build went something like:
Sorc2/Shugenja1/Mystic TheurgeX/Arcane HierophantX/???/profit!
probably a dip of sacred exorcist for turn undead into DMM.

Bamboo spirit folk(OA) lets you get into Arcane Hierophant anyway you want, and with the sorcerer ACF from UA you can get a pretty decent little Animal Companion after you take all the levels in Hierophant. Requires at least a 12 int to keep up with skill prereqs here or there but that shouldn't be that big a deal since you're SAD for everything else. I was wondering for that straight cleric/wizard theurge, how you managed to get in at level 3 considering you need 6 ranks in both know(arcana&religion) before you can go into it. I know there are a few tricks for it but you don't specify any particular one, or if you are you aren't really explaining it.

[Heliomance]

Two things here, too: You appear to have an odd definition of cheese. You are saying losing caster levels for an expanded spell list is cheese. Every theurge that can should use it. It is simply the best option. A handbook doesn't care if your DM won't allow DMM, Uncanny Forethought, or even Scribe Scroll. The job of a handbook is to explain how to make a good, in my case, theurge.


Typically, the people who gain the most value from handbooks are optimisation novices and people picking up a class for the first time who want to get a good handle on the sort of thing that works and doesn't. Handbooks aren't written for the hardcore optimisers that know every rulebook by heart. At most, that crowd will use them as a starting point to point them towards the right books to inspect.

Handbooks should not include anything controversial in the main body. Cheese is fine as a subsection, clearly labelled, but should not be something given to players as something to rely on being allowed. Dragon magazine content is similarly not something to say "you need this" about - Dragon is so widely banned, that you should only put it in as "If you have access to Dragon, this is useful. This is what it does, and why you want it."

Yes, a Theurge without early entry tricks is weak (relatively speaking - they're still way better than a non-caster). But ANY early entry trick is controversial. It doesn't matter how well-supported it is by RAW, if it lets you get into the class before the designers intended you to, it's questionable and will get shot down by probably the majority of DMs. Not all, certainly. But personally, I enjoy optimisation, I enjoy powerful characters, and I have the most permissive attitude of any DM in my gaming society, and if someone came to me wanting to play a character using early entry tricks I would inspect it VERY carefully. For a theurge type I'd PROBABLY let it slide, depending on how far they'd taken it, but it would certainly earn them an awful lot of scrutiny and an evaluation of how much I trust them as a player. It's not something to be assumed.

[Psyren]

It isn't a matter of the DM "vetoing" it. It does not work per RAW. The ring does not grant you Evasion, as a class feature or otherwise; it allows you to "avoid damage as if you had evasion". That's like trying to get in through Divine Oracle 2.

Impulse Boots work, though. That's clever.

Gotta love Incarnum :smallsmile:



Yes, a Theurge without early entry tricks is weak (relatively speaking - they're still way better than a non-caster). But ANY early entry trick is controversial. It doesn't matter how well-supported it is by RAW, if it lets you get into the class before the designers intended you to, it's questionable and will get shot down by probably the majority of DMs.

1) The designers' intent is not the gold standard you make it out to be. They also "intended" for monks not to be able to move and flurry, or for clerics and druids to replace the fighter with a single spell and a single class feature respectively. So just because they may have intended something, doesn't make it reasonable or worth listening to. You also can't prove that these techniques were not intended to allow early entry anyway.

2) What "the majority of DMs" would do is something that we have no way of knowing without polling the boards.

[Heliomance]

1) The designers' intent is not the gold standard you make it out to be. They also "intended" for monks not to be able to move and flurry, or for clerics and druids to replace the fighter with a single spell and a single class feature respectively. So just because they may have intended something, doesn't make it reasonable or worth listening to. You also can't prove that these techniques were not intended to allow early entry anyway.

No, I really don't think they did. It's well established that the designers expected people to play healbot clerics and blaster wizards. I'm pretty certain that they didn't intend to make the fighter and monk useless by comparison.

Also, your argument is fallacious anyway. Strip out everything except Divine Power from a Cleric, or everything except Wildshape from a Druid, and the Fighter will beat them five ways to Sunday.

[Tyndmyr]

All that said I wanted to mention the Versatile Spellcaster+heighten trick for spontaneous theurges which as always has it's contentiousness RAW-wise. The only truly SAD spontaneous theurge would be a sorcerer/shugenja off the top of my head, but I only know that because that's the one I've been planning on playing in my next campaign.

Generic Spellcaster has all three casting stats as possibilities.

Edit: Note that availability of Generic Spellcaster in this fashion is not guaranteed in all campaigns. Def a variant. Check w DM.

[Psyren]

No, I really don't think they did. It's well established that the designers expected people to play healbot clerics and blaster wizards.

1) Did they also expect Monks to be immobile? Then why give them fast movement?

2) That's may be how they playtested, yet the fact remains that they added all the other powers to these classes. Are you arguing they didn't expect anyone to use them?


Also, your argument is fallacious anyway. Strip out everything except Divine Power from a Cleric, or everything except Wildshape from a Druid, and the Fighter will beat them five ways to Sunday.

Putting aside that a Druid with nothing but wild shape can still wreck the fighter, and a Cleric with nothing but Divine Power can come close... no, my argument is not fallacious. You are not hypercognitive and can't definitively say that "X was not intended to be used for Y" because you're not the WotC designer that came up with X.

[Heliomance]

Putting aside that a Druid with nothing but wild shape can still wreck the fighter, and a Cleric with nothing but Divine Power can come close... no, my argument is not fallacious. You are not hypercognitive and can't definitively say that "X was not intended to be used for Y" because you're not the WotC designer that came up with X.

A Cleric with nothing but Divine Power is a Fighter without bonus feats for a round per level and worse than that the rest of the time; and a week or two ago there was a long and involved thread that explained in great detail exactly why Wildshape does not by itself make the Druid a viable front line fighter.

[Keld Denar]

A couple things. First, read Dictum Mortum's Handbook Writers Handbook. Yes, he has a handbook for everything, including writing handbooks.

Second, lose the condescending attitude. People want to come to your thread because they don't know things. Don't then berate them for not knowing things. Saying things like "if I have to explain X, Y, and Z, this guide can't help you" is counterproductive. If its something you don't want to put in the guide, say "but that's a topic I won't be discussing in this guide." So little effort for so much civility.

Third, you hand wave a lot of things that you and I both know. I understand, because I know. Because I know, your guide isn't terribly useful for me. But it is useful for the people who don't know, who are the ones who get lost when you handwave things. Knowing your target audience is one of the most important things if you are trying to create a product for others to consume, be it a car, widget, or information in a guide.

Fourth, expand more on Illumians. They are awesome, and Imp Sigil Krau is one of the mechanics that makes them awesome for Theurges. If you have Krau, you can for UurKrau or AeshKrau, which switches bonus spells over to Dex and Str, respectively. Now you can do Wiz/Arch as a theurge and dump wisdom. Everything you'd get from it, you get from Str or Dex. Divine Power plus Str as a secondary stat DOES kinda make you a gish despite your awkward chassis. Dex as a secondary stat boosts your Init and makes hitting with rays easier. Lots of neat synergy there. Do note that the DMM equivalent word is NaenHoon, which you didn't reference by name and also doesn't include Krau, so you have to rely on Heighten Spell to early entry, which you also don't explain.

Another thing you mention is Spontaneous Divination, which requires at least 5 full Wiz levels. None of the builds have that many. Few have more than 2. It's hard to get to 5 when you are chasing double 9s on anything other than a Ur-Theurge. It must not be as vital as you indicate. You can't have it and only 2 Wiz levels...

All in all, this is an interesting start, but needs a lot of work and a slight change in tone to be really useful.

[Psyren]

A Cleric with nothing but Divine Power is a Fighter without bonus feats for a round per level and worse than that the rest of the time; and a week or two ago there was a long and involved thread that explained in great detail exactly why Wildshape does not by itself make the Druid a viable front line fighter.

None of which has any relation to this discussion even if true.

(And the fact that they can still put up a fight even with their respective chassis 90% gutted is just sad.)

[Telonius]

Nifty theurge build...

Kobold Sorc1/Druid3/Mystic Theurge10/Arcane Hierophant(Races of the Wild)6

1 Dragonwrought (Races of the Dragon). Type changes to Dragon. Become a Loredrake (Dragons of Eberron) for +2 sorc spellcasting. Complete regular Draconic Rite of Passage between now and level 9. Max ranks in Know (Arcana) in levels 1-3.
3 Knowledge Devotion (Know: Religion) (Complete Champion). Max ranks in Know (religion) on level 3 and 4 for entry into MT.
6 Draconic Reservoir (RotD web enhancement)
9 Greater Draconic Rite of Passage (+1 Sorc level) (RotDWE)

End results:
- Casting at Sorcerer20/Druid19
- Bruise from DMG being thrown at you

Pros:
- 9th-level spells from both arcane and divine.
- Immune to Hold Person etc. spells (since type is now Dragon)
- Kobolds are awesome.

Cons:
- Feat-intensive.
- Takes a while to develop power.
- Does not gives full progression to the Animal Companion.
- DAD (Charisma and Wisdom).
- Sorcerer spellcasting is slightly less versatile than Wizard (though there are ways to get around this).
- Totally perverts the intent of Loredrake.
- Relies on several splatbooks.
- Any sane DM will shoot the idea down.

Other options:
- Swap out four levels of MT for Arcane Hierophant. (Unfortunately AH still has to come after MT, because the skill requirements wouldn't allow earlier entry; that would force you to lose a caster level).

[Heliomance]

The Cleric, certainly, really can't. Rather than describe it as a Fighter without bonus feats, I'll describe it as a Commoner with full BAB. That's equally accurate. And tbh, neither can the Druid, but I don't have a pithy comparison to make for that.

[Geigan]

Generic Spellcaster has all three casting stats as possibilities.

Edit: Note that availability of Generic Spellcaster in this fashion is not guaranteed in all campaigns. Def a variant. Check w DM.

Whoops, I mistated my case. I should have said that shugenja is the only divine caster out there that I know of that you can theurge with and remain SAD. Generic can fill out the arcane side sure, not to mention a bunch of others I forgot about. Charisma arcane casters aren't nearly as hard to find as a cha divine caster though without splitting your casting stat. :smallfrown:

[Psyren]

The Cleric, certainly, really can't. Rather than describe it as a Fighter without bonus feats, I'll describe it as a Commoner with full BAB. That's equally accurate. And tbh, neither can the Druid, but I don't have a pithy comparison to make for that.

Commoners don't get +6 strength, heavy armor+shield proficiency, or a free source of expendable HP.

Quite apart from the great forms they get (including movement modes - do a fighter's bonus feats let it fly, swim or burrow?) Druids also heal a bit every time they shift.

Good tangent though.

[hex0]

You need to mention Spellthief, especially trickster spellthief!

Trickster Spellthief 2/Wizard 3/Ultimate Magus 5/Nar Demonbinder 1/Ultimate Magus 5 etc. with Master Spellthief and Practited Spellcaster, your Caster Level is very high...as Nar Demonbinder also stacks with a previous caster of your choice AND Master Spellthief stacks all your caster levels together.

Also, Knight of the Weave and Mystic Ranger deserve a mention as well.

Great job so far!

[Little Brother]

A couple things. First, read Dictum Mortum's Handbook Writers Handbook. Yes, he has a handbook for everything, including writing handbooks.I'll look it up.

Second, lose the condescending attitude. People want to come to your thread because they don't know things. Don't then berate them for not knowing things. Saying things like "if I have to explain X, Y, and Z, this guide can't help you" is counterproductive. If its something you don't want to put in the guide, say "but that's a topic I won't be discussing in this guide." So little effort for so much civility.Explain. This guide won't be useful to someone who has no system mastery. It is that simple. It's expected for someone to know the basic trick and such when trying to optimize. I'll change it tonight, though.

Third, you hand wave a lot of things that you and I both know. I understand, because I know. Because I know, your guide isn't terribly useful for me. But it is useful for the people who don't know, who are the ones who get lost when you handwave things. Knowing your target audience is one of the most important things if you are trying to create a product for others to consume, be it a car, widget, or information in a guide.Such as?

Fourth, expand more on Illumians. They are awesome, and Imp Sigil Krau is one of the mechanics that makes them awesome for Theurges. If you have Krau, you can for UurKrau or AeshKrau, which switches bonus spells over to Dex and Str, respectively. Now you can do Wiz/Arch as a theurge and dump wisdom. Everything you'd get from it, you get from Str or Dex. Divine Power plus Str as a secondary stat DOES kinda make you a gish despite your awkward chassis. Dex as a secondary stat boosts your Init and makes hitting with rays easier. Lots of neat synergy there. Do note that the DMM equivalent word is NaenHoon, which you didn't reference by name and also doesn't include Krau, so you have to rely on Heighten Spell to early entry, which you also don't explain.Will do a quick fix now.

Another thing you mention is Spontaneous Divination, which requires at least 5 full Wiz levels. None of the builds have that many. Few have more than 2. It's hard to get to 5 when you are chasing double 9s on anything other than a Ur-Theurge. It must not be as vital as you indicate. You can't have it and only 2 Wiz levels...Huh. Missed that. Thanks, will adjust it.

All in all, this is an interesting start, but needs a lot of work and a slight change in tone to be really useful.Okay, thanks for the input.

You need to mention Spellthief, especially trickster spellthief!

Trickster Spellthief 2/Wizard 3/Ultimate Magus 5/Nar Demonbinder 1/Ultimate Magus 5 etc. with Master Spellthief and Practited Spellcaster, your Caster Level is very high...as Nar Demonbinder also stacks with a previous caster of your choice AND Master Spellthief stacks all your caster levels together.

Also, Knight of the Weave and Mystic Ranger deserve a mention as well.

Great job so far!This'll take a while, but I'll try to do it soon. Thanks.

[Qwertystop]

Can't you get in at level 4 (3 levels of Cleric, one of either Dread Necromancer, Warmage, or Beguiler, and take Versatile Spellcaster)?

[Geigan]

Explain. This guide won't be useful to someone who has no system mastery. It is that simple. It's expected for someone to know the basic trick and such when trying to optimize. I'll change it tonight, though.

If someone has system mastery, then what use do they have for a handbook? I think it might be best to clearly state your motives for writing this handbook in your introduction. If it's not to help people who've never played a theurge before you'd best state that, as that's who the majority of handbooks are written for. They'll be the ones coming to your guide and asking you to explain things that you don't want to have to explain until you post a sign out front telling them not to bother. Either that or you could actually explain those things in detail so your guide is more helpful overall.

[herrhauptmann]

Hmm, gonna keep an eye on this...



Theurges are powerful. What is the most powerful mechanic in the game? Spells. Having access to more spells(As in known, not slots) is more powerful

Wanna say (and might've missed someone else saying it), that while spells are powerful, it's action economy that makes your huge spell list useful.

Who cares if you've got a list of 100 different spells you can cast at any one time, if you can only cast one per round? I sure don't.
Now if you have 100 different spells available, and you can cast 2 or more each round, then I'll start getting impressed.

And given some of the Casters I've been in groups with, the part where it takes them 5 minutes to decide which spell they should cast next gets annoying midgame. And that's with a normal caster.
As a theurge with nearly double the spell list, I can't imagine it taking less time. And god forbid both parts of your casting are preparation! Character takes an hour to study his spellbook, and an hour to pray. Player takes half an hour deciding which spells he wants to ditch for that day.

And I agree with the others who say you should write this handbook for someone that wants to make their first theurge and not accidentally gimp their character. Put the high optimization stuff at the end.

[Little Brother]

Hmm, gonna keep an eye on this...

Wanna say (and might've missed someone else saying it), that while spells are powerful, it's action economy that makes your huge spell list useful.

Who cares if you've got a list of 100 different spells you can cast at any one time, if you can only cast one per round? I sure don't.
Now if you have 100 different spells available, and you can cast 2 or more each round, then I'll start getting impressed.With Alternative Source Spell and Uncanny Forethought, you can cast both lists spontaneously. I'd say that's pretty damn good.

And a lot of good buffs are swift actions: Swift Snakes Swiftness, Blood Wind, Swift Fly and Expeditious Retreat, Grace is a pretty nifty buff, Incite gives some nice control, KNIGHT'S MOVE, a swift action teleport, and you have enough incapacitating stuff to survive that melee long enough to run away and blow it up, Updraft is a free 5' step, and so on.

There's also gems like Distracting Assailant, flat-footing as a swift action, Forcewave, a free +10 bull rush(not optimal, but could combo well), if you're a dragonborn, or took a dip in DFA, you have al sorts of swift action debuffs in the breath spells, and so on.

This is just a few spells from the spell compendium alone. All the swift actions all the time, plenty of actions to go around.

And given some of the Casters I've been in groups with, the part where it takes them 5 minutes to decide which spell they should cast next gets annoying midgame. And that's with a normal caster.
As a theurge with nearly double the spell list, I can't imagine it taking less time. And god forbid both parts of your casting are preparation! Character takes an hour to study his spellbook, and an hour to pray. Player takes half an hour deciding which spells he wants to ditch for that day.And that is the fault of the players and/or irrelevant. ten hours rather than 8? Okay, the party walks for 14 hours, or you just fly on your carpet or sit on your cart or something while prepping.

And I agree with the others who say you should write this handbook for someone that wants to make their first theurge and not accidentally gimp their character. Put the high optimization stuff at the end.And I am saying that losing three caster levels for no reason and not even gaining the whole spell list to Alt source spell with is gimping your build. Lose one or the other and it's good, but both is... how to say... far beyond suboptimal. If they don't like that, they can just use Ur-Priest/Sublime Chord/Nar Demonbinder.

[herrhauptmann]

With Alternative Source Spell and Uncanny Forethought, you can cast both lists spontaneously. I'd say that's pretty damn good.
Good point.


And a lot of good buffs are swift actions: Swift Snakes Swiftness, Blood Wind, Swift Fly and Expeditious Retreat, Grace is a pretty nifty buff, Incite gives some nice control, KNIGHT'S MOVE, a swift action teleport, and you have enough incapacitating stuff to survive that melee long enough to run away and blow it up, Updraft is a free 5' step, and so on.

Most of your buffs should be hours/level, or all day. So swift action buffs aren't as useful. Especially since ones like Swift Expeditious are only 1 round.
If someone is making a character using the level of optimization you assume for standard, they should know enough to avoid needing a lot of those.


There's also gems like Distracting Assailant, flat-footing as a swift action, Forcewave, a free +10 bull rush(not optimal, but could combo well), if you're a dragonborn, or took a dip in DFA, you have al sorts of swift action debuffs in the breath spells, and so on.

So are you spending your swift action to use an invocation or a spell? Don't forget all the immediate actions you can perform. If you've used one of those, you can't use a swift action on your subsequent turn. Only in 4E can you trade down actions. Move+swift or 2 swift actions, stuff like that.


And that is the fault of the players and/or irrelevant. ten hours rather than 8? Okay, the party walks for 14 hours, or you just fly on your carpet or sit on your cart or something while prepping.

Sometimes it isn't the players fault. Ever been in a game where you decide on the perfect spell/action, then right before your turn, it all gets screwed up? It's annoying enough for melee who just have to decide who to hit and how much to power attack. It's worse for casters who have to decide who to target, how, and where to center the spell. That's assuming they know all the details of all their spells. Which most don't.
If you've never had a player at your table who has to roleplay even the most meaningless conversations, like asking the stablehand for his advice, then I'm jealous.
As for being irrelevant, some adventures have a time limit. It's a great way to prevent the 10 minute adventuring day (http://www.weregeek.com/2007/12/26/) and actually challenge the party without hitting them with an overpowering encounter for each fight.


And I am saying that losing three caster levels for no reason and not even gaining the whole spell list to Alt source spell with is gimping your build. Lose one or the other and it's good, but both is... how to say... far beyond suboptimal. If they don't like that, they can just use Ur-Priest/Sublime Chord/Nar Demonbinder.
First time I've heard of an urpriest theurge being 'suboptimal.' Kid, you scare me.

[Little Brother]

Most of your buffs should be hours/level, or all day. So swift action buffs aren't as useful. Especially since ones like Swift Expeditious are only 1 round.
If someone is making a character using the level of optimization you assume for standard, they should know enough to avoid needing a lot of those.Swift Fly and Knight's Move are bad? Seriously, you're saying those are bad?

So are you spending your swift action to use an invocation or a spell? Don't forget all the immediate actions you can perform. If you've used one of those, you can't use a swift action on your subsequent turn. Only in 4E can you trade down actions. Move+swift or 2 swift actions, stuff like that.No. Reread the spell compendium. There's a bajillion of X Breath spells that give you a swift action debuff, if you have a breath weapon. Dragonborn would be better, pro'lly, though.

Sometimes it isn't the players fault. Ever been in a game where you decide on the perfect spell/action, then right before your turn, it all gets screwed up? It's annoying enough for melee who just have to decide who to hit and how much to power attack. It's worse for casters who have to decide who to target, how, and where to center the spell. That's assuming they know all the details of all their spells. Which most don't.
If you've never had a player at your table who has to roleplay even the most meaningless conversations, like asking the stablehand for his advice, then I'm jealous.Explain. I know every single spell I ready. I know them off the top of my head. I also figure out what type of spell I'm gonna need before my turn, so I don't need to waste time, I can just figure out which of my other twenty-million spells I should use.

All my players play smart. They very rarely do things that are stupid and time-wasting.

As for being irrelevant, some adventures have a time limit. It's a great way to prevent the 10 minute adventuring day (http://www.weregeek.com/2007/12/26/) and actually challenge the party without hitting them with an overpowering encounter for each fight.One: I don't allow five-minute days, nor do I know anyone who does. Furthermore, that's part of the beauty of a Theurge, you have the spell slots to keep up all day. you make Warlocks cry.

First time I've heard of an urpriest theurge being 'suboptimal.' Kid, you scare me.Good thing that's not what I said. Though, you do know that a lot of theurges with Ur-priests are sub-optimal, 'cuz they just forget about it after it's done. For example, you could go something like Druid/Bard/Wiz3/Ur2/MT3/SC 1/FL4/UM5, or something like that, rather that Wizard 5/Ur2/MT 10/some wizard class 3.

[dextercorvia]

Swift Fly and Swift Exp. Retreat and the like are great for Persistent Spell, since they cost less -- and in the case of Fly is now personal range.

[Little Brother]

I have seen it done before, so I don't think there is something wrong with this, and if there is, I apologize to the mods.

But it is worth pointing out, I have updated this about Arcane Heirophant.

[gorfnab]

One more dual progression class to add to the list is Eldritch Disciple (Divine/Invoke).

[DoctorGlock]

Will classes and configurations that give the full benefit of a theurge without actually being one be worth mentioning?

Cleric 6/Prestige Paladin 4/Full Caster 10 with sword of the arcane order means all your slots are paladin slots and you can prepare arcane spells from the Sor/Wiz list in paladin slots. You also get Battle Blessing and are a gish as well as a theurge. It's probably one of the only cases where loosing 2 CL is worth it.

Bard 1/Magic Mantle Ardent 4/Ur Priest 2/Psionic Theurge 3/Sublime Chord 1/Mystic Theurge 5/Cerbremancer 4 gets 9 divine, 9 arcane, 8 psionic, wisdom dominant, cha secondary.

Edit, left out a level, 9/9/8s now. Made it because I am morally opposed to Beholder Mage, if magic mantle does not work right, southern magician will. You grab SU transform and used lesser reality revision to do whatever you want while abusing the action economy and psireforming your sublime chord casting.

[Little Brother]

One more dual progression class to add to the list is Eldritch Disciple (Divine/Invoke).Already got it, but this isn't about dual-progression, it's about arcane/divine dual progression.

Will classes and configurations that give the full benefit of a theurge without actually being one be worth mentioning?

Cleric 6/Prestige Paladin 4/Full Caster 10 with sword of the arcane order means all your slots are paladin slots and you can prepare arcane spells from the Sor/Wiz list in paladin slots. You also get Battle Blessing and are a gish as well as a theurge. It's probably one of the only cases where loosing 2 CL is worth it.[/quote]Doesn't work.

Bard 1/Magic Mantle Ardent 4/Ur Priest 2/Psionic Theurge 3/Sublime Chord 1/Mystic Theurge 5/Cerbremancer 4 gets 9 divine, 9 arcane, 8 psionic, wisdom dominant, cha secondary. Uh, dude? Ardents depend purely on ML, so practiced manifester solves every problem.That's why they're favored in most attempts at tripp-9.

[DoctorGlock]

Uh, dude? Ardents depend purely on ML, so practiced manifester solves every problem.That's why they're favored in most attempts at tripp-9.

No, practiced manifester is the only reason this build gets 8ths. Though i'd like to know how you are pulling the 3rd set of 9s. I suppose you could pull it with illumian but nothing generic.
Also why does the prestige paladin not work?

[Little Brother]

No, practiced manifester is the only reason this build gets 8ths. Though i'd like to know how you are pulling the 3rd set of 9s.Uh, you should be getting 9s from it:

Bard 1/Ardent 4/Ur-Priest 2/Psionic Theurge 3(On Ardent and Ur-Priest)/Sublime Chord 1/Mystic Theurge 4(On Sublime Chord and Ur-Priest)/Mystic Theurge 1(on Ardent and Ur-Priest)/Cerebremancer 4(SC and Ardent)

That gives you 4 levels of Ardent and 8 levels of progression. Now get a ring of Arcane Might, which works on ML by RAW, and you have 9th level powers.

I suppose you could pull it with illumian but nothing generic.One example is Ardent 5/Ur-Priest 2/Nar Demonbinder 1/Mystic Theurge 1/Psychic Theurge 6/Cerebremancer 5

Versatile Caster gives you 9th arcane slots, which you can have fun with Extra Slot, or whatever, and Practiced Manifester gives you ML 19, for some serious fun, since Mind's Eye let you do whatever you want with mantles.

Also why does the prestige paladin not work?You have no Paladin slots. Just cleric which you can prep Paladin spells in. So Battle Blessing might work, dunno, away from book.

[DoctorGlock]

Uh, you should be getting 9s from it:

Bard 1/Ardent 4/Ur-Priest 2/Psionic Theurge 3(On Ardent and Ur-Priest)/Sublime Chord 1/Mystic Theurge 4(On Sublime Chord and Ur-Priest)/Mystic Theurge 1(on Ardent and Ur-Priest)/Cerebremancer 4(SC and Ardent)

That gives you 4 levels of Ardent and 8 levels of progression. Now get a ring of Arcane Might, which works on ML by RAW, and you have 9th level powers.
One example is Ardent 5/Ur-Priest 2/Nar Demonbinder 1/Mystic Theurge 1/Psychic Theurge 6/Cerebremancer 5

Versatile Caster gives you 9th arcane slots, which you can have fun with Extra Slot, or whatever, and Practiced Manifester gives you ML 19, for some serious fun, since Mind's Eye let you do whatever you want with mantles.
You have no Paladin slots. Just cleric which you can prep Paladin spells in. So Battle Blessing might work, dunno, away from book.

presumably if you are a prestige paladin (an thus a paladin) your cleric slots which are advanced by the class become paladin slots, thus valid targets for sword of the arcane order.

As to the ardent, that was a massive math fail on my part, though i'd not use the ring. I go for item independence foremost. Fun little things like Illumian, overchannel, and reserves of strength should pull it off. Difficult to squeeze DMM in with all the feats being eaten by prereqs though, had to resort to complete scoundrel locations for my version.

[Little Brother]

presumably if you are a prestige paladin (an thus a paladin) your cleric slots which are advanced by the class become paladin slots, thus valid targets for sword of the arcane order.Nope. Just like a Mystic Theurge has no slots, so cannot be advanced, the Prestige Paladin has no slots to prep SotAO with.

[DoctorGlock]

Nope. Just like a Mystic Theurge has no slots, so cannot be advanced, the Prestige Paladin has no slots to prep SotAO with.

That sucks. Battle blessing still work?

[Little Brother]

That sucks. Battle blessing still work?Dunno, which book is it in? Need to look it up.

[DoctorGlock]

Dunno, which book is it in? Need to look it up.

Complete Champion iirc

[Psyren]

Battle Blessing works fine with Prestige Paladins; it requires paladin spells, not paladin slots. It even works for other classes with Paladin spells, e.g. Archivists.

[DoctorGlock]

Battle Blessing works fine with Prestige Paladins; it requires paladin spells, not paladin slots. It even works for other classes with Paladin spells, e.g. Archivists.

And thus only works with the specific paladin list?

And there I was thinking I'd been clever.

[erikun]

Why did you exclude Druids, who still have a decent spell list even without wildshape or a meaningful animal companion? Why did you include Duskblades in a theurge discussion? Why are Spirit Shamans, easily a T1 caster equal to or above Druid spellcasting, lumped with Sorcerers and Favored Souls? Why no talk about Beguilers, Dread Necromancers, and Warmages?

Why include talk about the Fochlucan Lyrist but the Sublime Chord "hardly qualifies here." :smallconfused: Also, no Ur-Priest discussion?

I've seen Wizard/Druid/Arcane Hierophant theurges that ride around mounted on their ubercompanion, and so strength isn't always something that should be neglected. Cleric/Ardent/Psychic Theurge is as good in melee as the standard Cleric or Ardent, which is pretty dang good. I would not be inclined to dump dexterity either, unless I'm playing a character with no touch attacks and a healthy miss chance; there are just too many bonuses (and spells) that apply to touch AC to assume that a +10 to hit at 20th level will cut it.

Conversely, why boost charisma in anything but Cleric/Dread Necro with DMM?

If you are talking about the "one best" Theurge, they you probably mean Wizard/Archivist... in which case, charisma is useless to you. Wisdom isn't really that significant either, unless you like throwing around the Cleric debuffs for some reason. If you are not specifically talking about that, though, then the importance of various stats would change a lot; a Sublime Chord/Ur-Priest theurge gets very little use out of intelligence.


Build options:

Wizard 4/Beguiler 1/Ultimate Magus with Practiced Manifester (Beguiler) give you near-full wizard spellcasting (two levels lost over 20), SAD Int spellcasting, a healthy amount of Beguiler casting and Ultimate Magus tricks. I still like Bard better, though.

Wizard 9/Ur-Priest 2/Mystic Theurge for "natural" entry with 9th level spellcasting on both sides. Wizard 5/Mindbender 1/Ur-Priest 2/Mystic Theurge is a popular alternative, as Mindbender allows you to qualify for Ur-Priest earlier (good Fort save, Bluff class skill) and grants you Telepathy for the ever popular Mindsight feat.

Wizard 3/Druid 3/Arcane Hierophant/Mystic Theurge (I think) grants you 9th level spells on both sides, near-full wildshape progression, and near-full progression for your animal companion/familiar hybrid. As mentioned before, there are mounted builds that can take advantage of this. If you don't care as much about double-9ths, then you could just take one side (Wiz3/Dru3/AH/Druid preferred) for basically full spell and ability progression with 7th level spellcasting on the other side.

Cleric 3/Ardent 3/Psychic Theurge can gish it up as well as any Cleric or Ardent build. Ardent basically loses no progression - with the Practiced Manifester feat - due to the class's unusual wording as well, although you'll be limited to three mantles on the Ardent side.

Cleric/Dread Necromancer/Mystic Theurge gets a lot more turning attempts, especially if you take the Destroy Undead variant and grab a level of Sacred Exorsist. You'd probably want to focus more on Cleric than Dread Necro in this case, though.

[Psyren]

And thus only works with the specific paladin list?

And there I was thinking I'd been clever.

Yes:

"You can cast most of your paladin spells faster than normal."

It will only work with cleric spells that are also on the paladin list.

[Little Brother]

Why did you exclude Druids, who still have a decent spell list even without wildshape or a meaningful animal companion?I have. See the Arcane Heirophant. I lack enough experience to make an educated entry on them, but put in what was necessary.

Why did you include Duskblades in a theurge discussion?'Cuz I hear having every cleric spell 5th level and lower effectively at will is good? As I said, not the best, but can be made pretty good.
Why are Spirit Shamans, easily a T1 caster equal to or above Druid spellcasting, lumped with Sorcerers and Favored Souls?You're joking, right? They are strictly inferior to Druids, period. Favored Soul is simply superior to a Spirit Shaman in a spontaneous build.
Why no talk about Beguilers, Dread Necromancers, and Warmages?I did.

Why include talk about the Fochlucan Lyrist but the Sublime Chord "hardly qualifies here." :smallconfused: Also, no Ur-Priest discussion?Because they're fast progression classes, and that's all that needs to be said. Fochlucan Lyrist, on the other hand, is probably the best theurge-progression class, except for maybe the Arcane Heirophant.

I've seen Wizard/Druid/Arcane Hierophant theurges that ride around mounted on their ubercompanion, and so strength isn't always something that should be neglected.You mean mediocre companion or terrible wizard casting, right? Either you lose a good 9 levels of your companion or you lose wizard casting. Guess which one is better?

Cleric/Ardent/Psychic Theurge is as good in melee as the standard Cleric or Ardent, which is pretty dang good.You mean good with d4 HD and half BAB?

I would not be inclined to dump dexterity either, unless I'm playing a character with no touch attacks and a healthy miss chance; there are just too many bonuses (and spells) that apply to touch AC to assume that a +10 to hit at 20th level will cut it.Unless you're running a SAD build, which use weaker classes overall, you're needing to keep two stats high, or at least medium-high.

Conversely, why boost charisma in anything but Cleric/Dread Necro with DMM?Because Cleric/DM is terribad? Because Favored Soul/Sublime Chord is pretty good?

If you are talking about the "one best" Theurge, they you probably mean Wizard/Archivist... in which case, charisma is useless to you.No, the best one is Cleric/Wizard. Archivist/Wizard is number two.
Wisdom isn't really that significant either, unless you like throwing around the Cleric debuffs for some reason.I hear Unluck is good? If it makes you feel better, though, I'll spell everything out. I just figured people'd be able to tell which stats applied to which builds, 'cuz, yanno, it's in the entry in the books they are in.
If you are not specifically talking about that, though, then the importance of various stats would change a lot; a Sublime Chord/Ur-Priest theurge gets very little use out of intelligence.Except, you know, having the skills needed to qualify for Sublime Chord?

Build options:

Wizard 4/Beguiler 1/Ultimate Magus with Practiced Manifester (Beguiler) give you near-full wizard spellcasting (two levels lost over 20), SAD Int spellcasting, a healthy amount of Beguiler casting and Ultimate Magus tricks. I still like Bard better, though.Both terrible and not a theurge.

Wizard 9/Ur-Priest 2/Mystic Theurge for "natural" entry with 9th level spellcasting on both sides. Wizard 5/Mindbender 1/Ur-Priest 2/Mystic Theurge is a popular alternative, as Mindbender allows you to qualify for Ur-Priest earlier (good Fort save, Bluff class skill) and grants you Telepathy for the ever popular Mindsight feat.

Wizard 3/Druid 3/Arcane Hierophant/Mystic Theurge (I think) grants you 9th level spells on both sides, near-full wildshape progression, and near-full progression for your animal companion/familiar hybrid. As mentioned before, there are mounted builds that can take advantage of this. If you don't care as much about double-9ths, then you could just take one side (Wiz3/Dru3/AH/Druid preferred) for basically full spell and ability progression with 7th level spellcasting on the other side.Except for no wildshape, a terrible companion, and mediocre casting, it's great!

Cleric 3/Ardent 3/Psychic Theurge can gish it up as well as any Cleric or Ardent build. Ardent basically loses no progression - with the Practiced Manifester feat - due to the class's unusual wording as well, although you'll be limited to three mantles on the Ardent side.Except for, yanno, having half BAB, d4 HD, and being stictly inferior to a Wizard/STP Erudite/Cerebremancer? No.

Cleric/Dread Necromancer/Mystic Theurge gets a lot more turning attempts, especially if you take the Destroy Undead variant and grab a level of Sacred Exorsist. You'd probably want to focus more on Cleric than Dread Necro in this case, though.Except, you know, Dread Necros, Beguilers, and Warmages are beyond terrible as theurges? And, you know, you can use Wizard/Ur-Priest/Sacred Exorcist to grab two turn pools, especially seeing how you have to worship a neutral god with bad domains to get both Turn and Rebuke in that build?

[JadePhoenix]

They are strictly inferior to Druids, period. Favored Soul is simply superior to a Spirit Shaman in a spontaneous build.

Please reread how a Spirit Shaman prepares spells. That's the single best fusion between prepared and spontaneous casting ever.

[Little Brother]

Please reread how a Spirit Shaman prepares spells. That's the single best fusion between prepared and spontaneous casting ever.So? In a Theurge, spontaneous is strictly inferior to prepared. Furthermore, the only reason you want a list like the Druid's, which is strictly inferior to a cleric or, you know, the Archivist, is because of Wildshape. Guess what Spirit Shamans don't have. Oh, yeah. Wildshape.

[erikun]

You're joking, right? They are strictly inferior to Druids, period. Favored Soul is simply superior to a Spirit Shaman in a spontaneous build.
The Spirit Shaman prepares spells each day, and then casts them spontaneously. Oh, and they have more spell slots that the Druid. The Spirit Shaman has one of the best spellcasting methods in the game, only coming short of the scribe-every-spell Archivist and full-access-anything Rainbeguilers.

The only way the Shaman comes up short is lacking Wildshape/Companion, and you yourself call the companion not worth much. Losing Wildshape is not good, but most theurges aren't going to progress it anyways and the pure Spirit Shaman spellcasting is superior to the Druid casting.


Because they're fast progression classes, and that's all that needs to be said.
Given that this is supposed to be a guide to people unfamiliar with creating theurges, I think that a lot can be said about these classes and their use.


You mean mediocre companion or terrible wizard casting, right? Either you lose a good 9 levels of your companion or you lose wizard casting. Guess which one is better?
Melee can be made irrelevant by 15th level anyways, so you either buff up your companion and still dominate at melee or you can retire the companion and be a 9/9 caster. Also note that not everyone is playing at 20th level only, so those mid-levels were being highly mobile and good in combat are still significant.

Also note that something like Druid 5/Wizard 1/AH 10/Druid 4 (with early entry trickery) exchanges a single caster level for 6th level wizard spells and a companion that is intelligent enough to participate meaningfully in combat. That's probably rather noteworthy.


You mean good with d4 HD and half BAB?
Cloistered Cleric has d6 HD and half BAB, and it still considered a full improvement over the regular Cleric in almost every case. Hit Points from HD mean nothing at higher levels, and BAB is ignored thanks to Divine Power. So yes, the Mystic Theurge would still rock melee even with d4 HD and half BAB.


Because Cleric/DM is terribad? Because Favored Soul/Sublime Chord is pretty good?
You are... recommending Favored Soul over Cleric? :smallconfused:


No, the best one is Cleric/Wizard. Archivist/Wizard is number two.
How is Cleric superior to Archivist, especially if you take a level of Sacred Exorcist?


Both terrible and not a theurge.
Given that you have Ultimate Magus listed in your guide as one of the theurge classes, I see some confusion here.


Except for no wildshape, a terrible companion, and mediocre casting, it's great!
Um, Arcane Hierophant does progress wildshape. It's the main reason to take Arcane Hierophant. It also gives your companion all the abilities of an Animal Companion and a Familiar of that level.


So? In a Theurge, spontaneous is strictly inferior to prepared.
I would love to see the reasoning behind this.

[DonutBoy12321]

Theurge-ish builds I can think of:
Bamboo Spirit Folk
Cleric 6/Prestige Paladin 4/Geomancer 10. This build utilizes the Sword of the Arcane Order feat to gain wizard Spellcasting in cleric slots, and Geomancer to gain single-attribute dependency and heavy armor arcane casting.

Archivist 6/Prestige Paladin (Slaughter of Tyranny) 4/Nightcloak 7/Archivist +1.
Similar to last build, except it has Single Attribute Dependency from the start. Nightcloak 7 grants Intelligence to saves, along with Charisma.

[Little Brother]

The Spirit Shaman prepares spells each day, and then casts them spontaneously. Oh, and they have more spell slots that the Druid. The Spirit Shaman has one of the best spellcasting methods in the game, only coming short of the scribe-every-spell Archivist and full-access-anything Rainbeguilers.No, it retrieves spells. No Alternative Spell Source, and so is strictly inferior to a Druid.

The only way the Shaman comes up short is lacking Wildshape/Companion, and you yourself call the companion not worth much. Losing Wildshape is not good, but most theurges aren't going to progress it anyways and the pure Spirit Shaman spellcasting is superior to the Druid casting.And Wildshape is the only reason to actually go Druid. Their list is awful compared to cleric/Archivist/anything else, really.

Given that this is supposed to be a guide to people unfamiliar with creating theurges, I think that a lot can be said about these classes and their use.How so? All that matters is the spells, so all you need to know is to qualify ASAP, then hit the theurge classes immediately.

Melee can be made irrelevant by 15th level anyways, so you either buff up your companion and still dominate at melee or you can retire the companion and be a 9/9 caster. Also note that not everyone is playing at 20th level only, so those mid-levels were being highly mobile and good in combat are still significant.And you're taking a worse casting list for a companion that sucks. Druid casting<<<<Cleric, period.

Also note that something like Druid 5/Wizard 1/AH 10/Druid 4 (with early entry trickery) exchanges a single caster level for 6th level wizard spells and a companion that is intelligent enough to participate meaningfully in combat. That's probably rather noteworthy.Except that's just a druid build. Not a Theurge build. A Theurge goes for double nines. You get mediocre casting, for that level, for minimal investment, we're proud of you! It just doesn't matter here.

Cloistered Cleric has d6 HD and half BAB, and it still considered a full improvement over the regular Cleric in almost every case. Hit Points from HD mean nothing at higher levels, and BAB is ignored thanks to Divine Power. So yes, the Mystic Theurge would still rock melee even with d4 HD and half BAB.Cloistered Cleric only because it gives you toys to play with, and doesn't belong on a melee build, unless you're building the Twice-Betrayer.

You are... recommending Favored Soul over Cleric? :smallconfused:Nope, I'm recommending Sublime Chord over the trash that is Dread Necro.

How is Cleric superior to Archivist, especially if you take a level of Sacred Exorcist?Because you auto-know every spell you can cast. So, all you need to do is weasel one high-level slot in, and you can PrC out safely, thanks to Alternative Source Spell.

Given that you have Ultimate Magus listed in your guide as one of the theurge classes, I see some confusion here.Nope, it's in the general dual-progression list. Difference.

Um, Arcane Hierophant does progress wildshape. It's the main reason to take Arcane Hierophant. It also gives your companion all the abilities of an Animal Companion and a Familiar of that level.Only if you already have Wildshape. Druid 3 doesn't.

And a familiar and a companion in one? Okay, melee, as you said, really doesn't matter to casters.

I would love to see the reasoning behind this.Alternative Source Spell. You'd know this if you, yanno, actually read the guide.

Theurge-ish builds I can think of:
Bamboo Spirit Folk
Cleric 6/Prestige Paladin 4/Geomancer 10. This build utilizes the Sword of the Arcane Order feat to gain wizard Spellcasting in cleric slots, and Geomancer to gain single-attribute dependency and heavy armor arcane casting.

Archivist 6/Prestige Paladin (Slaughter of Tyranny) 4/Nightcloak 7/Archivist +1.
Similar to last build, except it has Single Attribute Dependency from the start. Nightcloak 7 grants Intelligence to saves, along with Charisma.Trick doesn't work, we just went over this.

[Heliomance]

I would note that you never actually explained what's so good about Alternative Source Spell. You said it's good, but not anything about what it does and why you want it.

Also, it's Dragon Magazine content, which is pretty much the most commonly banned content ever, right behind third party.

[Little Brother]

I would note that you never actually explained what's so good about Alternative Source Spell. You said it's good, but not anything about what it does and why you want it.Alternative Source Spell lets you prepare spells known from a Divine class in Arcane slots, as an Arcane caster, and vice-versa.

So, it's not just good, it is so far beyond good that there is no reason not to take it, period.

Also, it's Dragon Magazine content, which is pretty much the most commonly banned content ever, right behind third party.So? A lot of DMs disallow Illumians or early entry. Plenty disallow Incarnum, or Psionics, or Tome of Battle. This, or any other unreasonable ban, has nothing to do with a handbook.

[Heliomance]

Alternative Source Spell lets you prepare spells known from a Divine class in Arcane slots, as an Arcane caster, and vice-versa.

So, it's not just good, it is so far beyond good that there is no reason not to take it, period.
And the upshot of this is that..?


So? A lot of DMs disallow Illumians or early entry. Plenty disallow Incarnum, or Psionics, or Tome of Battle. This, or any other unreasonable ban, has nothing to do with a handbook.

It is, however, a sign that you should not be saying "You are taking this feat. No argument, you HAVE to take this." Because the probability of the average gamer being ALLOWED to take it is a long, long way from certain.

[Little Brother]

And the upshot of this is that..?Versatility? Easier time SADing? Effects that apply only to arcane or divine casting? Divine Metamagic? Sky's the limit.

It is, however, a sign that you should not be saying "You are taking this feat. No argument, you HAVE to take this." Because the probability of the average gamer being ALLOWED to take it is a long, long way from certain.So? There is no argument, they should take this.

[Heliomance]

Look, if you're writing a handbook, you need to assume only a VERY basic level of prior knowledge on the part of your target audience. If Alternative Source Spell is so incredibly good, you need to devote a good paragraph to explaining why, and what it lets you do. You ALSO need to note that it's Dragon content and thus is likely to be disallowed. Feel free to say "If your DM will permit it, take this," but generally, permission for Dragon content should not be assumed the same way you can assume, say, the Complete series.

[JadePhoenix]

Look, if you're writing a handbook, you need to assume only a VERY basic level of prior knowledge on the part of your target audience. If Alternative Source Spell is so incredibly good, you need to devote a good paragraph to explaining why, and what it lets you do. You ALSO need to note that it's Dragon content and thus is likely to be disallowed. Feel free to say "If your DM will permit it, take this," but generally, permission for Dragon content should not be assumed the same way you can assume, say, the Complete series.

I've been saying that since page 1. It's simply not Little Brother's style, it seems. His handbook is not for everyone. We should just move alonh, Heliomance, seriously.

[Little Brother]

Look, if you're writing a handbook, you need to assume only a VERY basic level of prior knowledge on the part of your target audience. If Alternative Source Spell is so incredibly good, you need to devote a good paragraph to explaining why, and what it lets you do. You ALSO need to note that it's Dragon content and thus is likely to be disallowed. Feel free to say "If your DM will permit it, take this," but generally, permission for Dragon content should not be assumed the same way you can assume, say, the Complete series.There. Happy?

I've been saying that since page 1. It's simply not Little Brother's style, it seems. His handbook is not for everyone. We should just move alonh, Heliomance, seriously.So, are you just following this to say "Wow, I really hate this," whenever someone posts?

[Suddo]

Alternative Source Spell is from a dragon magazine. No wonder I couldn't find it. I definitely think you should include what issue its from sense Dragon Magazine stuff is the hardest stuff to find. I mean sometimes its something people know of but can't point out. I know you think people should have a "mastery" of the basic system but dragon magazine beyond everything else doesn't count as part of system mastery; Its often used to be cheesy which is okay but if used in a handbook needs to be very well explained.

And although, I don't think, you use Alternative Source Spell as a requirement in your builds you should still note the ability to use it is sometimes questionable.

[Gnaeus]

And although, I don't think, you use Alternative Source Spell as a requirement in your builds you should still note the ability to use it is sometimes questionable.

Most of what is advocated here is questionable, and is suggested as if its use was clear and undisputed. Alt Source Spell is no different than most of LB's advice.

[JadePhoenix]

There. Happy?
So, are you just following this to say "Wow, I really hate this," whenever someone posts?

No, I'm not. I was trying to help Heliomance avoid wasting his time, that is all.
You really should try being less confrontational.

[averagejoe]

You really should try being less confrontational.

The Mod They Call Me: There are a good number of people posting in this thread that could stand to be less confrontational. I've seen a few posts that have been really toeing the line. Let's try not to go all the way, yeah?

[sreservoir]

durthan (UA) is a theurge trap, similar to geomancer. dweomerkeeper (CD WE), too, but that one is cheap and is ridiculously good nevertheless.

[Leon]

Heal-bitch[/SIZE]


Perfectly valid play style.

[Essence_of_War]

And although, I don't think, you use Alternative Source Spell as a requirement in your builds you should still note the ability to use it is sometimes questionable.

I agree here.

My, admittedly limited, observation has been that Dragon Mag content is allowed in very few games, and when it is, players usually have to approve it case-by-case and assure the DM that they aren't going to be irresponsible with it.

[Little Brother]

durthan (UA) is a theurge trap, similar to geomancer. dweomerkeeper (CD WE), too, but that one is cheap and is ridiculously good nevertheless.I actually do not have that book, but I will update the OP, and will be more in depth the second I get it. Thanks for pointing that out. :smallsmile:

Perfectly valid play style.For a decent character? No.

I agree here.

My, admittedly limited, observation has been that Dragon Mag content is allowed in very few games, and when it is, players usually have to approve it case-by-case and assure the DM that they aren't going to be irresponsible with it.Maybe it's just me, but all of my groups have been basically "Don't be a jackass when making it" rule, or, at least, clear it, but unless you're doing something downright idiotic it's fine.

And, regardless, I put a note up on it.

[Leon]

For a decent character? No.

Depends on what you consider decent.
For someone who likes playing healing characters its a good choice.

When making a guide book you need to consider all the options - you apparently don't this one but its no less of a decent role to play than anything else.

[Little Brother]

Depends on what you consider decent.
For someone who likes playing healing characters its a good choice.For someone who likes healing, they should just play a binder and bind Buer, not waste a perfectly good build on jank like that. Or, you know, patch people up after fights, if convenient, as something that isn't a Theurge. You are a Theurge to be better than batman, not wasting your time doing someone else's job.

[Leon]

You can do both with a Theurge, be batman and a Medic

[Little Brother]

You can do both with a Theurge, be batman and a MedicAnd then defeating the point of a theurge. Great idea. Now I'll go make a Swift Hunter based on full attacking with two-handed weapon.

[Manateee]

Ambitious handbook, but large parts of it don't make sense.

First, why use a Theurge? What are the advantages to multiclassing a character that spells like Summons/Shapechange or spell list expansion can't address?

Then the structure you've used in certain sections doesn't make sense.

For example, the Stats section is out of place. Eg. should I really max Int on a Sublime Chord/Shugenja? Should I really crank Cha in an Arcane Hierophant? It would make more sense to either use this section to rank stats by their usability as the primary casting stat in a Theurge or by using them to organize a list of different kinds of casters/manifesters keyed off particular stats.

ACFs that don't directly affect multiclassed casters are out of place. Unless you plan to include comprehensive sections of Wizard, Druid, Cleric, Psion, etc. build advice, you can probably assume someone using this guide either knows what's available or is going to turn to another handbook. For example, Spontaneous Divination doesn't provide anything special to a Mystic Theurge and doesn't deserve any more consideration than normal for a Wizard, but High One Warrior-Wizard might be more useful than normal in something like an Archivist/Wizard with a Prestige Paladin dip.

This does very little to support Theurge entry. I know there are tricks like Earth Spell, Precocious Apprentice and so on that allow a character to enter the prestige classes with minimally stunted character growth, but I don't see a list of those options, I don't see their legitimacy discussed, I don't see comparative advantages of Sanctum spell v. Improved Sigil v. Versatile Spellcaster, etc. Likewise, I know there are tricks like Arcane Preparation, Southern Magician, etc. that let you qualify for nonstandard Theurge feats and PrCs, and again - though this is the information I'm going to turn to a guide like this to look for - there's no comparison, listing or discussion.

Similarly, the classes need more discussion. Knowing that Cerebremancer does Psionic/Arcane doesn't tell me what I need to get into it, it doesn't really tell me what I get out of it (ie. does it provide straight casting advancement like the MT, does it provide nerfed casting advancement like the True Necromancer or Eldritch Theurge, does it provide improved casting advancement like the Anima Mage, etc.) - those are really the two questions I'd be coming to a thread like this to resolve.

It's cool you're building this. It has the potential to be a usable tool. But in it's current state, it's just not useful.

[Gnorman]

I have to agree - it really is just one specific build with a handbook disguise. Perhaps you could discuss the merits of alternate options instead of dismissing them immediately?

[Little Brother]

Not a bad effort for a first handbook, but I feel it needs a lot more explanations of why what is good is good etc. A handbook generally needs to assume it's reader is not that familiar with traditional op-tricks, and is reading the handbook for neophyte advice. This handbook seems to take a few shortcuts in assuming the readers prior knowledge, and seems to contain a fair bit of personal bias in regards to what is worthwhile and what isn't.

But generally, yes, quite a useful handbook.Can you give any specifics on what to change?

I have to agree - it really is just one specific build with a handbook disguise. Perhaps you could discuss the merits of alternate options instead of dismissing them immediately?Explain. I have builds using Druid, Archivist, Cleric, Favored Soul, and even Divine Crusader, as well as builds using many Arcane classes. I am just dismissing builds that are terrible at best, with reasons covered in the OP. Dread Necro, Beguiler, and Warmage are terrible, and if you don't have double 9s(Or 9/8 with Nar Demonbinder), you shouldn't be building a Theurge. You'd be better off with class features unless you're using the abilities of both classes to the fullest without overlap, which is why Cleric/DN sucks so hard, and Archivist/Beguiler is the least bad(While still downright awful) Warmage-esque theurge.

[Leon]

And then defeating the point of a theurge

er.. how does it defeat the point of a Theurge - the class that progresses 2 different spellcasting lines. Being equally capable at doing both control and healing if you so choose.


if you don't have double 9s(Or 9/8 with Nar Demonbinder), you shouldn't be building a Theurge.

That is one very limited way to look at a character and what classes make it up or what it does.
Much more important is how it works for the person playing and max level spells are just a small part of that, not the whole point.

[dextercorvia]

What do you see as the purpose of a Theurge?

[Thrice Dead Cat]

The Handbook Handbook has been mentioned, which is solid. You should also cite other handbooks. Don't just say "You are batman!" without at least linking to either the now very old "Batman Guide" or one of treantmonk's various, newer "GOD" handbooks. It's a minor thing, but damned if it doesn't help for just various "I wonder how I could play X..." type posts that happen. I mean, Monkday is a tried and true tradition around here, but handbooks are just go-to guides for information.

So far, your organization is, well, wonky. "Theurge" is such a broad category, so it can be difficult. I'd organize things first by base classes and then prestige classes. I'd also work first from a core+completes set-up to a then broader (read, this one Dragon magazine, that one Faerun book, et al.) set-up.

Don't try to force your normal optimization comfort level down people's throats. Throwing out things like "action economy" can be weird and hard to parse without a bit of foreknowledge, so giving too much info on things helps. We have a lot of jargon in the Playground, so being clear in something that is supposed to be a guide is a must.

Three-five itself has been out of print for a while, but that doesn't necessarily mean that every poster will have every book. Part of making a handbook is going "Well, here are a bunch of options, my opinions on them, and things you can do given only X and Y." Past Theurge handbooks refer to "early entry tricks" as such because not everyone likes Precious Apprentice or Sanctum Spell or whatever else have you. It can vary a lot by group to group and DM to DM.

A rough skeleton I would use follows
Base class choices, mention "big" synergies like wizard/archivist, sorcerer/binder, wizard/druid (with Arcane Heirophant [Races of the Wild]), whatever else you got. This place will probably be clogged, simply because of how you can mix and match.

(Right now, I think the base class section needs the most work. I mean, not everyone wants to play tier null rocket tag.)

Prestige class choices
"What do I do after Mystic Theurge?"
"The Warlock and what else: Do you want to run on vegetable oil when your gas runs dry?"
"Binders: Like Warlocks, but different"

(I can go on here, but this should just be about covering basics and referring to other guides to help people out.)

Feats
(Just list "good" combos. I'm a fan of the Dragonlance feat that changes bonus spells to INT for Divine Casters in so far as archivist/wizard goes. This is also probably the place where you tag things as "dirty tricks," like Anima Mage without any actual binder levels, Ur-Priest and Sublime Chorde shenanigans)

Races
(Yeah, Kobolds rock here given all the resources, but a lot of those probably won't fly at certain tables. Illumians deserve mention, too. Humans are always solid. Stranger races for oddball entry requirements are also nice, but mark those as "tricks, too)

Money and items
(Getting gear that synergies your two (or more) casting classes is a must. This guide shouldn't be exhaustive, but mention the obvious ones like +X to casting stats is a good step)

Feel free to PM me for contact info, Little Brother. With the recent Theurge-day storm, I feel like this handbook is a great idea.

For insanity, look at this. Probably don't mention it, though. It hurts to keep track of that much stuff. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3945177)

[Little Brother]

er.. how does it defeat the point of a Theurge - the class that progresses 2 different spellcasting lines. Being equally capable at doing both control and healing if you so choose.

That is one very limited way to look at a character and what classes make it up or what it does.
Much more important is how it works for the person playing and max level spells are just a small part of that, not the whole point.Then you are wasting the power of a theurge. As I said, you can make a swift hunter that doesn't move. It is exactly the same thing.

What do you see as the purpose of a Theurge?In a low-OP game? To throw enough spells at something and otherwise mess around. In a high-OP game? To Batman with more spells and better buffs.

The Handbook Handbook has been mentioned, which is solid. You should also cite other handbooks. Don't just say "You are batman!" without at least linking to either the now very old "Batman Guide" or one of treantmonk's various, newer "GOD" handbooks. It's a minor thing, but damned if it doesn't help for just various "I wonder how I could play X..." type posts that happen. I mean, Monkday is a tried and true tradition around here, but handbooks are just go-to guides for information.

So far, your organization is, well, wonky. "Theurge" is such a broad category, so it can be difficult. I'd organize things first by base classes and then prestige classes. I'd also work first from a core+completes set-up to a then broader (read, this one Dragon magazine, that one Faerun book, et al.) set-up.

Don't try to force your normal optimization comfort level down people's throats. Throwing out things like "action economy" can be weird and hard to parse without a bit of foreknowledge, so giving too much info on things helps. We have a lot of jargon in the Playground, so being clear in something that is supposed to be a guide is a must.

Three-five itself has been out of print for a while, but that doesn't necessarily mean that every poster will have every book. Part of making a handbook is going "Well, here are a bunch of options, my opinions on them, and things you can do given only X and Y." Past Theurge handbooks refer to "early entry tricks" as such because not everyone likes Precious Apprentice or Sanctum Spell or whatever else have you. It can vary a lot by group to group and DM to DM.

A rough skeleton I would use follows
Base class choices, mention "big" synergies like wizard/archivist, sorcerer/binder, wizard/druid (with Arcane Heirophant [Races of the Wild]), whatever else you got. This place will probably be clogged, simply because of how you can mix and match.

(Right now, I think the base class section needs the most work. I mean, not everyone wants to play tier null rocket tag.)

Prestige class choices
"What do I do after Mystic Theurge?"
"The Warlock and what else: Do you want to run on vegetable oil when your gas runs dry?"
"Binders: Like Warlocks, but different"

(I can go on here, but this should just be about covering basics and referring to other guides to help people out.)

Feats
(Just list "good" combos. I'm a fan of the Dragonlance feat that changes bonus spells to INT for Divine Casters in so far as archivist/wizard goes. This is also probably the place where you tag things as "dirty tricks," like Anima Mage without any actual binder levels, Ur-Priest and Sublime Chorde shenanigans)

Races
(Yeah, Kobolds rock here given all the resources, but a lot of those probably won't fly at certain tables. Illumians deserve mention, too. Humans are always solid. Stranger races for oddball entry requirements are also nice, but mark those as "tricks, too)

Money and items
(Getting gear that synergies your two (or more) casting classes is a must. This guide shouldn't be exhaustive, but mention the obvious ones like +X to casting stats is a good step)

Feel free to PM me for contact info, Little Brother. With the recent Theurge-day storm, I feel like this handbook is a great idea.

For insanity, look at this. Probably don't mention it, though. It hurts to keep track of that much stuff. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3945177)Okay, I will start the update(Though it's approaching New Year's, so I got a lot of stuff to be doing today), so I will use this. Thanks.

[Leon]

Then you are wasting the power of a theurge. As I said, you can make a swift hunter that doesn't move. It is exactly the same thing.


A Mobile hunter that doesn't move is not the same as a Dual Caster who can heal as one of its options.

Nothing about casting a healing spell instead of a Control/Buff/Damage spell is any less powerful a option - a Cure spell in the right place is as powerful as any other spell.

[Little Brother]

A Mobile hunter that doesn't move is not the same as a Dual Caster who can heal as one of its options.

Nothing about casting a healing spell instead of a Control/Buff/Damage spell is any less powerful a option - a Cure spell in the right place is as powerful as any other spell.A cure spell is NEVER powerful. EVER. A Heal, maybe. But a CURE? No.

[dextercorvia]

In a low-OP game? To throw enough spells at something and otherwise mess around. In a high-OP game? To Batman with more spells and better buffs.

I'm going to focus on the second half of this statement, since you are so interested in high-op alternatives.

You can never build a theurge that can out batman a non-theurge Wizard based build at levels X through Y. X marks the time of your deviation from wizardly awesomeness minus any feats you spent on early entry (that would have been better invested by a more focused build). Y has a lower bound of 17 + #of non wizard casting levels.

So, by choosing to batman with a theurge, you are making a suboptimal choice. This is not to say that it is badwrongfun, but you have lambasted several suggestions for being suboptimal.

Those who are proposing a Heal/BFC theurge are actually making a more optimal choice for the role of band-aid dispenser. That is to say, if you have chosen this for your Role, this is one way to do that and have other good things to do in combat. Remember, someone devoted to healing is a popular archetype, and Mystic Theurge is one (of several) ways to do that without sacrificing all playability.

You have attempted to answer the question, "Which classes combine best with Mystic Theurge?" But, to truly be a handbook, you have to answer the question, "Which roles benefit most (and least) from Mystic Theurge?"

[Myth]

It has potential, but you should tone down the forum slang, hunting me down and force-feeding me my own cat (I don't even have a cat (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/cat.htm). Those things can kill you!) and the general "teenager" tone.

Also, saying things like: "See this build? x1/y9/x1/y01" and then going "there's probably a better way to do it, but whatever" makes me lose confidence in your guide. I read guides to find out the best way to do or get something. General ideas are what makes one seek a guide in the first place, but it has to be a source of refined and hard to come by information.

Otherwise you're just making me go and ask on GITP for someone to optimize the build (instead of you doing it).

[Leon]

A cure spell is NEVER powerful. EVER. A Heal, maybe. But a CURE? No.

Cure as in the the whole line of curative spells but even a basic Cure spell can change fight.

[Little Brother]

Cure as in the the whole line of curative spells but even a basic Cure spell can change fight.No, it can't.

And, Dex, you can out-Batman batman. Simply, you get more toys. What defines Batman? Toys. So what happens when you get every single one of his toys, and more? You're better.

Furthermore, a bandaid dispenser is not a role. Using a cure when you could be throwing out a Glitterdust, a Grease, a Web, a Solid Fog, a Divine Power, an Animal's buff, or so on is idiotic at best. Any effective move like that is superior to a single move that gets nothing done, and heals about 1/2 to 1/4 of the enemies damage/round.

[dextercorvia]

No, it can't.

And, Dex, you can out-Batman batman. Simply, you get more toys. What defines Batman? Toys. So what happens when you get every single one of his toys, and more? You're better.

Furthermore, a bandaid dispenser is not a role. Using a cure when you could be throwing out a Glitterdust, a Grease, a Web, a Solid Fog, a Divine Power, an Animal's buff, or so on is idiotic at best. Any effective move like that is superior to a single move that gets nothing done, and heals about 1/2 to 1/4 of the enemies damage/round.

You are misunderstanding the power curve with a batman character. Rather than argue with you, I propose a challenge: Give me your best Bat-Theurge and I will use every non theurgic element of your build to build a better Batman by removing the theurge.

Also, the next time my buddy is bleeding out, I'll try a Grease spell -- hopefully that will stabilize him.

[Geigan]

You are misunderstanding the power curve with a batman character. Rather than argue with you, I propose a challenge: Give me your best Bat-Theurge and I will use every non theurgic element of your build to build a better Batman by removing the theurge.

Also, the next time my buddy is bleeding out, I'll try a Grease spell -- hopefully that will stabilize him.

Well obviously you should have used incendiary slime instead, then set it on fire. Bam, all wounds instantly cauterized. Any remaining useless bits of flesh can be sold off as exotic barbecue to pay for the components to a true res or raise dead if the pansy didn't survive. Fire(and grease!) have solved everything once again!:smallwink::smalltongue: [/end violent non sequiter]

[Little Brother]

You are misunderstanding the power curve with a batman character. Rather than argue with you, I propose a challenge: Give me your best Bat-Theurge and I will use every non theurgic element of your build to build a better Batman by removing the theurge.

Also, the next time my buddy is bleeding out, I'll try a Grease spell -- hopefully that will stabilize him.You buddy's bleeding out? Okay, a cure would have done enough that he'd just have been shot straight back to negatives next round. A heal, maybe, but a cure? It's like a good cleric. You don't bother with healing until you get 6th level spells, and you DON'T NEED A BANDAID-dispenser. I thought everyone had gotten the memo (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871786/A_Players_Guide_to_Healing_And_why_you_will_be_Jus t_Fine_without_a_Cleric_to_heal).

Do I need to stick this in the freaking OP or something?

EDIT: And, yeah, I can make a Bat-Theurge out theurge any Batman.

[sonofzeal]

You buddy's bleeding out? Okay, a cure would have done enough that he'd just have been shot straight back to negatives next round. A heal, maybe, but a cure? It's like a good cleric. You don't bother with healing until you get 6th level spells, and you DON'T NEED A BANDAID-dispenser. I thought everyone had gotten the memo (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871786/A_Players_Guide_to_Healing_And_why_you_will_be_Jus t_Fine_without_a_Cleric_to_heal).

Do I need to stick this in the freaking OP or something?

EDIT: And, yeah, I can make a Bat-Theurge out theurge any Batman.
*sigh*

You know, I actually played a healer once or twice. Not just a healer, a Healer, from Miniatures Hanbook. And you know what I found?

I could effectively negate just about everything an enemy did in combat. I could heal as much damage as they could dish out in a turn. I could remove any status affliction they could apply. I could, in effect, retroactively deny them actions. I couldn't win the fight by myself... but the rest of the party could.

I'm only trading action-for-action, and Wizards can usually do better, but in most fights PCs already have the collective action economy advantage, and one character trading action-for-action with the enemy tilts that even further - especially since, unlike most other methods of actually denying enemies actions, the enemy never has a chance to resist it because you're only targetting allies.

A party doesn't need a walking bandaid box. There's plenty of ways to patch up between combats without one. But saying that healing and curative effects are useless in combat is a gross exaggeration, and one that suggests to me that you've never played with a healer who knew what they were doing.

[dextercorvia]

You buddy's bleeding out? Okay, a cure would have done enough that he'd just have been shot straight back to negatives next round. A heal, maybe, but a cure? It's like a good cleric. You don't bother with healing until you get 6th level spells, and you DON'T NEED A BANDAID-dispenser. I thought everyone had gotten the memo (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871786/A_Players_Guide_to_Healing_And_why_you_will_be_Jus t_Fine_without_a_Cleric_to_heal).

Do I need to stick this in the freaking OP or something?

EDIT: And, yeah, I can make a Bat-Theurge out theurge any Batman.

You do know that not every round of game time is spent in combat right? That is the reason I would suggest a MT for someone who wants to play a healing archetype -- out of combat, without eating into their resources (much) for in combat effectiveness.

Since you have accepted my challenge, is there someone to judge between our builds? I assume you have a high cheese tolerance, based on your handbook. I propose we draw the line a Pun Pun and infinite combos, but anything short of that is fair game. May I have a rough vision for your build so that I can prepare most mine before I see your full version? Just broad strokes like Wizard/Archivist, Arcane Hierophant, or Wizard/UrTheruge, etc.

I suppose that since you are going the Theurge route, you would like this judged on Versatility as wells as Power. Is there anything else you want to be judged on?

Flaws? Traits? Buy-off?

[Little Brother]

I'm gonna need to do a little thinking. I'm gonna have Cleric or Ur-Priest on one side, I know that much. Thinking Wizard, but am undecided on that half, since I am not going with my softball build.

Sure, flaws, traits, buy-off.

[enderlord99]

Here (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PoesLaw)'s an accurate description of everything in the OP.

[herrhauptmann]

I'm gonna need to do a little thinking. I'm gonna have Cleric or Ur-Priest on one side, I know that much. Thinking Wizard, but am undecided on that half, since I am not going with my softball build.

Sure, flaws, traits, buy-off.

You should both get a DM to set the rules for this, and to make rulings on things that might be questionable. Then will this be a fight between the two of you? Or will you instead have the DM throw challenges at you and grade your ability to overcome it.

Good luck finding a fair and impartial DM.

[dextercorvia]

You should both get a DM to set the rules for this, and to make rulings on things that might be questionable. Then will this be a fight between the two of you? Or will you instead have the DM throw challenges at you and grade your ability to overcome it.

Good luck finding a fair and impartial DM.

I would prefer a panel of judges a la Iron Chef to evaluate the builds' effectiveness level by level. But, I would willingly participate in an arena match, or a same game test.

Are you volunteering?:smallwink:

[herrhauptmann]

I would prefer a panel of judges a la Iron Chef to evaluate the builds' effectiveness level by level. But, I would willingly participate in an arena match, or a same game test.

Are you volunteering?:smallwink:

Aww hail no.
I disagree with a lot of little brothers combos, so I'd probably reject them just because I can't follow his logic on what makes the tricks work.

Never actually followed the Iron Chef threads, but that sounds like a good idea.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Aww hail no.
I disagree with a lot of little brothers combos, so I'd probably reject them just because I can't follow his logic on what makes the tricks work.

Never actually followed the Iron Chef threads, but that sounds like a good idea.

This is why Handbook writing is an art. I like some of the "super awesome cool" combos that 3.X provides, but knowing where the limits are on being "okay" and being "broken" vary so much from person to person it can be hard to know what flies with which group/GM.

Personally, I think the point of any and all Handbooks is to give advice. Say what "works" and what doesn't. Give "benchmarks" and explain why. List resources and try to rate them.

In my edit, I moved "blasting" up from purple to red simply because while it is "inferior," it's still nice to have some sort of "nuke" on hand. Sometimes it's as simple as saying "I ready an action to cast Lesser Orb of Fire at the next enemy that tries to cast a spell." Other times you go into celerity cheese and use that spell to then cast that very same Orb. Either way, the idea is to stop an enemy caster from casting while the rest of your party goes to town on the enemies in their own way.

Sometimes it's starting out as a wizard and then pretending to be a cleric via Ur-Priest cheese, but in a core-only or a more limited resource environment (Say, Core+Completes only), you just have to bite down on the bullet and accept being Wizard 3/Cleric 3/Mystic Theurge X. Eventually, you do want to get to higher level spells.

TL;DR: With Theurges, simply because they have sooooo many spells, it can be hard to figure out where "broken" is.

[rweird]

Could a Wizard 3/Druid 3/Mystic Theurge 1/Arcane Heriophant 10/Mystic Thuerge +3. have Arcane Heriophant use both it's castings to advance Mystic Theurge casting? I mean Arcane Heriophant uses +1 to a preexisting Arcane class to increase Mystic Theurge that it's casting increase increase wizard and druid 1 and you do the same with the divine casting so at 20th you would have: Wizard casting 27, Druid casting 27 and you can advance the epic Mystic Theurge.

[darksolitaire]

Could a Wizard 3/Druid 3/Mystic Theurge 1/Arcane Heriophant 10/Mystic Thuerge +3. have Arcane Heriophant use both it's castings to advance Mystic Theurge casting?

...no.

Mystic Theurge does not have it's own casting that could be advanced in the first place. Also, you need two levels of MT to qualify for AH.

[Gnaeus]

A party doesn't need a walking bandaid box. There's plenty of ways to patch up between combats without one. But saying that healing and curative effects are useless in combat is a gross exaggeration, and one that suggests to me that you've never played with a healer who knew what they were doing.

Zeal is correct. Sub-optimal as a party role does not mean useless. This is especially true of clerics (via converting to cures) or druids (via converting to SNA IV with ring of the beast to summon healing unicorns), who can fill their entire spell lists with situationally useful spells, knowing that if they meet Mystery Beast X, their Smite Beast X spell will be prepared, but if they don't, they can still contribute meaningfully to combat by converting the spell. Having a character whose job is in-combat healing is not optimized (although it could still be important for RP reasons). Having a character who has the ability to throw a cure spell if he needs to while retaining the rest of his arsenal of tricks is very optimized.

This, of course, is the central theme to any batman caster. They can do anything that the situation calls for. Every time you say "X sucks, I don't need to be able to do that!", whether X is healing, blasting, Save or Die, or whatever, you lose part of the power that is a tier 1 caster, and you make Batman cry.

[Little Brother]

Zeal is correct. Sub-optimal as a party role does not mean useless. This is esThis, of course, is the central theme to any batman caster. They can do anything that the situation calls for. Every time you say "X sucks, I don't need to be able to do that!", whether X is healing, blasting, Save or Die, or whatever, you lose part of the power that is a tier 1 caster, and you make Batman cry.Geez, thanks! I never realized that pro wizards threw around Cure minor Wounds 24/7! And that Fireball was a good spell for them, rather than CC and such, like Solid Fog! I guess Solid Fog an Grease suck, cuz they aren't blasting, amirite?

Seriously, no. Blasting is, and always will be weak. Healing is, and always will be weak. A batman has 10+ spontaneous slot, but he does NOT prepare(Or cast) Fireball. A Batman DOES. NOT. BLAST. You can play a blast-wizard or a healbot cleric, but it's on your head.

[Leon]

Geez, thanks! I never realized that pro wizards threw around Cure minor Wounds 24/7! And that Fireball was a good spell for them, rather than CC and such, like Solid Fog! I guess Solid Fog an Grease suck, cuz they aren't blasting, amirite?

Seriously, no. Blasting is, and always will be weak. Healing is, and always will be weak. A batman has 10+ spontaneous slot, but he does NOT prepare(Or cast) Fireball. A Batman DOES. NOT. BLAST. You can play a blast-wizard or a healbot cleric, but it's on your head.

What has a Cleric/Blaster mage done to you to evoke such wrath agaisnt those play styles?

Blasting is a Tool, Batman is a Utility belt, Utility Belts carry tools thus a Batman can blast and still be a valid batman (a Theurge Batman has access to a very good quality First Aid Kit as well as the tool belt)

The choices on what you can do with a Theurge are very large and varied, all the options work. Whether a player thinks them optimal or not is up to them but it does not make any choice less valid to another player.

[Manateee]

{{scrubbed}}

[Gnaeus]

Geez, thanks! I never realized that pro wizards threw around Cure minor Wounds 24/7! And that Fireball was a good spell for them, rather than CC and such, like Solid Fog! I guess Solid Fog an Grease suck, cuz they aren't blasting, amirite?

That depends. If you want to take out a group of enemies standing 700 feet away on a field which you previously doused in oil, Solid Fog and grease are suboptimal. Of course, in a typical fight, fireball is suboptimal. You know what is optimal? Crafting some goggles of the golden sun onto your face slot item, so that you can prep Solid Fog but still do the job when your party could use a fireball. Or just getting a scroll of fireball.


Seriously, no. Blasting is, and always will be weak. Healing is, and always will be weak. A batman has 10+ spontaneous slot, but he does NOT prepare(Or cast) Fireball. A Batman DOES. NOT. BLAST. You can play a blast-wizard or a healbot cleric, but it's on your head.

A wizard who preps 2 damage spells per day or a cleric that can convert to a heal is neither a blast-wizard nor a healbot. Its a guy with options. The guy with the most options is the guy who is most likely to have the correct option.

[sonofzeal]

Seriously, no. Blasting is, and always will be weak.
Mailman and Cindy would disagree. Blasting, when optimized, is either a "Save or Die" or a "No Save Just Die". If the ability to permanently remove an enemy or multiple enemies from the battlefield isn't powerful, I don't know what is. I'd far rather kill someone than cast Grease under them or leave them in Solid Fog.


Healing is, and always will be weak.
This is more true, to an extent. Still, consider the phrase I used: "retroactively deny them actions".

What if I had a standard action spell that could, with no save or SR, and bypassing all immunities, and with unlimited range, daze an enemy for a round? Would that be a spell worth preparing? Now what if I could do it retroactively?

That shouldn't be a character's only ability... but it's not a bad one. I certainly wouldn't call it "weak". Perhaps not "strong" either, I'd want a more favourable ratio of actions denied for that, but I think it earns the title off "decent".

[Mystic Muse]

Alright. Since you've got plenty of feedback about the handbook itself, I'd just like to mention two things about the formatting.

In the first post, with class combinations it's kind of hard to tell the difference between one or the other. For example, Wizard/Cleric is just above Druid/Wizard. It would be best to put the Combinations in bold so that they're easier to distinguish.

Additionally, I would mention the source of anything you suggest. Not only so that players can find what they're supposed to be looking for, but also so they can avoid searching for something from a book that isn't allowed in their campaign. This reduces the time you have to look through your books for something you have, and prevents you from looking through your books for something you don't have.

There used to be a list of common abbreviations for the various books, but I can't seem to find it now. Sorry to not be of more help.

[Wyntonian]

{{scrubbed}}

Amen, brotha. Also, LB, I appreciate the points that you're making. I also assume you're trying to teach people something. Sarcasm makes people less likely to listen and absorb what you're trying to say, making it damn near impossible to learn anything. If you want to make a guide that shows how smart you are, and how you know so much more about optimizing and playing a batman than anything else, please do so. But call a spade a spade, a handbook a handbook, and a vanity thread a vanity thread.

[NineThePuma]

Silver is really irritating to read on a white background. Request alteration of color.

[Little Brother]

What has a Cleric/Blaster mage done to you to evoke such wrath agaisnt those play styles?

Blasting is a Tool, Batman is a Utility belt, Utility Belts carry tools thus a Batman can blast and still be a valid batman (a Theurge Batman has access to a very good quality First Aid Kit as well as the tool belt)

The choices on what you can do with a Theurge are very large and varied, all the options work. Whether a player thinks them optimal or not is up to them but it does not make any choice less valid to another player.Okay, let's continue that tool metaphor. Blasting is a tool, yes, but it is an oversized, overweighted, badly-built wooden Batarang, compared to, say, the sleek, metal batarang with the options for bolo or rope attatchments, which is decent control. Plus, a good wizard will focus specialize and get rid of evocation, necromancy, and something else in this build that the cleric covers.

That depends. If you want to take out a group of enemies standing 700 feet away on a field which you previously doused in oil, Solid Fog and grease are suboptimal. Of course, in a typical fight, fireball is suboptimal. You know what is optimal? Crafting some goggles of the golden sun onto your face slot item, so that you can prep Solid Fog but still do the job when your party could use a fireball. Or just getting a scroll of fireball. Which is why scrolls of mostly useless situational spells is a good idea.

A wizard who preps 2 damage spells per day or a cleric that can convert to a heal is neither a blast-wizard nor a healbot. Its a guy with options. The guy with the most options is the guy who is most likely to have the correct option.A wizard should not waste his preped spells, given that he has 10+ spontaneous slots at mid-level.

And a cleric should take Spontaneous Domain ACF. If you need a heal-bitch get a ranger or something to do it. The only heal you should bother with is Heal.

Mailman and Cindy would disagree. Blasting, when optimized, is either a "Save or Die" or a "No Save Just Die". If the ability to permanently remove an enemy or multiple enemies from the battlefield isn't powerful, I don't know what is. I'd far rather kill someone than cast Grease under them or leave them in Solid Fog.Zeal, I got a lot of respect for you, and I think you're a pretty cool guy, but, seriously, context is cool. Just a tip.

This is more true, to an extent. Still, consider the phrase I used: "retroactively deny them actions".Except for the fact that, outside of heal, your healing ability is far lower than the average damage of that level. Compare an Orc Barbarian, level 1, with a falchion. Compare this thing's damage to a 5th level cleric's heal. 3d8+5<2d4+14. A CR 1 enemy just did more than your heal. Nice.

What if I had a standard action spell that could, with no save or SR, and bypassing all immunities, and with unlimited range, daze an enemy for a round? Would that be a spell worth preparing? Now what if I could do it retroactively?Sure, I agree. Solid Fog is a great spell to prepare. Healing, however, doesn't work that way.

That shouldn't be a character's only ability... but it's not a bad one. I certainly wouldn't call it "weak". Perhaps not "strong" either, I'd want a more favourable ratio of actions denied for that, but I think it earns the title off "decent".By more favorable, you mean able to stop something more than 4 levels below you? I mean, the only healing spells that people should remember is the Vigor line and Heal. Nothing else can heal enough to bother at the level you get it.

Alright. Since you've got plenty of feedback about the handbook itself, I'd just like to mention two things about the formatting.

In the first post, with class combinations it's kind of hard to tell the difference between one or the other. For example, Wizard/Cleric is just above Druid/Wizard. It would be best to put the Combinations in bold so that they're easier to distinguish.

Additionally, I would mention the source of anything you suggest. Not only so that players can find what they're supposed to be looking for, but also so they can avoid searching for something from a book that isn't allowed in their campaign. This reduces the time you have to look through your books for something you have, and prevents you from looking through your books for something you don't have.

There used to be a list of common abbreviations for the various books, but I can't seem to find it now. Sorry to not be of more help.I'll start on that tomorrow. I'm hitting hay right now.

[sonofzeal]

Zeal, I got a lot of respect for you, and I think you're a pretty cool guy, but, seriously, context is cool. Just a tip.
I have no idea what you mean here.


Except for the fact that, outside of heal, your healing ability is far lower than the average damage of that level. Compare an Orc Barbarian, level 1, with a falchion. Compare this thing's damage to a 5th level cleric's heal. 3d8+5<2d4+14. A CR 1 enemy just did more than your heal. Nice.

Sure, I agree. Solid Fog is a great spell to prepare. Healing, however, doesn't work that way.
By more favorable, you mean able to stop something more than 4 levels below you? I mean, the only healing spells that people should remember is the Vigor line and Heal. Nothing else can heal enough to bother at the level you get it.
Sure... if you're not putting any effort into it at all.

Again, I've played a Healer. At 5th level I was healing well over 30 hp a pop, and I wasn't even trying to optimize that hard - specifically, I wasn't taking advantage of the many many ways to boost the Caster Level of Healing spells.

In my infamous Druid thread, I used the example of a basic CR 5 Troll to demonstrate the importance of AC at low/mid levels, because Trolls have a nasty offence against low-AC enemies. My Healer though? At level 5, they could heal about as much damage as that Troll could dish out in a round.

So no. You're repeating another bit of board "common knowledge" that fails to live up to reality. A half-decent effort on a terrible class can match enemy DPR with their healing. Cure Serious Wounds won't solve your problems straight out of the box with zero effort, just like blasting spells without metamagic and/or special effort aren't worth using, but both have a lot of effects and feats and items and abilities that help boost them. Even a moderate investment can get the numbers high enough to be quite relevant.

[Leon]

Plus, a good wizard

Any wizard can be a good wizard - what they specialize in has nothing to do with being good. What makes any class Good is how they utilize what they have chosen to use.



And a cleric should take Spontaneous Domain ACF. If you need a heal-bitch get a ranger or something to do it. The only heal you should bother with is Heal.

So groups below the level that Heal is available at have to live with low health & party deaths due to the classes with healing options not using them?

The Cure line are useful for mid combat refills on those that need it, more so the ones who have less HP that others like Wizards (no reason to cast a spell that heals 150 on a PC with 60).

One of the most important healing spells i have found as a Cleric player is a level 2 spell - Close Wounds has stopped a lot of PC deaths

[herrhauptmann]

Compare an Orc Barbarian, level 1, with a falchion. Compare this thing's damage to a 5th level cleric's heal. 3d8+5<2d4+14. A CR 1 enemy just did more than your heal.
2d4+14?
Are we talking an optimized player with a 24str (2d4+10str+2PA)? Or the NPC orc barbarian?
Because either way, I'm not seeing the +14 damage. And yes, at low levels, that +2 actually matters.


So groups below the level that Heal is available at have to live with low health & party deaths due to the classes with healing options not using them?
No, obviously any skilled player doesn't bother playing if he can't enter his first PrC. Because those early levels can be filled with PC deaths or even TPKs solely because the DM rolled a crit at a bad time.

[Little Brother]

Amen, brotha. Also, LB, I appreciate the points that you're making. I also assume you're trying to teach people something. Sarcasm makes people less likely to listen and absorb what you're trying to say, making it damn near impossible to learn anything. If you want to make a guide that shows how smart you are, and how you know so much more about optimizing and playing a batman than anything else, please do so. But call a spade a spade, a handbook a handbook, and a vanity thread a vanity thread.If I wanted to show off or anything, I wouldn't have wasted hours on writing and updating the guide.
This is to try to reduce the frequency of Theurge-Day, right after Monkday. Seriously, though, a guide is about optimization. I am not going to tell people to build some jank. I am going to tell them how to make a good build, and if they decide to play sub-optimally with it, that's their call.

Silver is really irritating to read on a white background. Request alteration of color.Will do.

I have no idea what you mean here.



Sure... if you're not putting any effort into it at all.

Again, I've played a Healer. At 5th level I was healing well over 30 hp a pop, and I wasn't even trying to optimize that hard - specifically, I wasn't taking advantage of the many many ways to boost the Caster Level of Healing spells.

In my infamous Druid thread, I used the example of a basic CR 5 Troll to demonstrate the importance of AC at low/mid levels, because Trolls have a nasty offence against low-AC enemies. My Healer though? At level 5, they could heal about as much damage as that Troll could dish out in a round.

So no. You're repeating another bit of board "common knowledge" that fails to live up to reality. A half-decent effort on a terrible class can match enemy DPR with their healing. Cure Serious Wounds won't solve your problems straight out of the box with zero effort, just like blasting spells without metamagic and/or special effort aren't worth using, but both have a lot of effects and feats and items and abilities that help boost them. Even a moderate investment can get the numbers high enough to be quite relevant.A Theurge is tight on feats and skills, and putting effort into a sub-optimal mechanic is a bad idea. I know you can put a lot of effort into making healing keep up, PrC and feat investment, but a Theurge is better off using those feats for Practiced Spellcaster, Alternative Spell Source, and other, actually good, feats. I can make a truenamer decent if I want to. Or, I Can make a jank truenamer. Which should I do?

If you need something to give a bunch of healing, get a Ranger, or wands, or Heal. A Ranger can do it just as well as a cleric, and rarely has better things to do at the levels you are referring to. You can put effort into any jank, and make it passable. You can put effort into something good and make it a lot better. Which is a better idea, I wonder? If you are really so terrified of damage that you need a healbot, you can use something ACTUALLY GOOD, like say, DMM Persist, to persist a Mass(Lesser) Vigor. A lot more healing, using ONE spell slot.

Any wizard can be a good wizard - what they specialize in has nothing to do with being good. What makes any class Good is how they utilize what they have chosen to use.No. Absolutely false. A Focused Evocater is and always will be bad, especially if they ban Transmutation and Conjuration.

I hear wands are cheap. I hear Vigor is an actually half-decent chain if you REALLY need it and lack something good, like, say, a Bard or Ranger or some such.
[quote]The Cure line are useful for mid combat refills on those that need it, more so the ones who have less HP that others like Wizards (no reason to cast a spell that heals 150 on a PC with 60).No reason to heal 20 on a guy with 10 HP left, when the average DPR of the enemy is 50+. A Wizard that actually ends up in melee deserves the death it gets. No reason to waste a bunch of slots on terrible spells.

One of the most important healing spells i have found as a Cleric player is a level 2 spell - Close Wounds has stopped a lot of PC deathsAnd what, exactly, does it do in combat against, say, a Balor, or a Titan, or anything worth its CR above level 10?

2d4+14?
Are we talking an optimized player with a 24str (2d4+10str+2PA)? Or the NPC orc barbarian?Decent Orc Barbarian, 22 Str(18+4), in a Rage, that's a +8 modifier. Two-handed to +12 damage, PA to 14.

[Mystic Muse]

Decent Orc Barbarian, 22 Str(18+4), in a Rage, that's a +8 modifier. Two-handed to +12 damage, PA to 14.

To be fair, NPCs and enemies don't get 18s in any stat without DM modification. A standard Orc Barbarian would only have a 21 Strength while raging. That's still a decent amount, but not as much as you're saying it is. An Orc with the Elite array would be 23, but I'm pretty sure standard enemies don't get the elite array.

[MukkTB]

Whats this 'You're a bad player if you play at low levels stuff?'

[dextercorvia]

Okay, let's continue that tool metaphor. Blasting is a tool, yes, but it is an oversized, overweighted, badly-built wooden Batarang, compared to, say, the sleek, metal batarang with the options for bolo or rope attatchments, which is decent control. Plus, a good wizard will focus specialize and get rid of evocation, necromancy, and something else in this build that the cleric covers.

There are non evocation blasting options, some of which are especially useful against something in an AMF.

[herrhauptmann]

Decent Orc Barbarian, 22 Str(18+4), in a Rage, that's a +8 modifier. Two-handed to +12 damage, PA to 14.

You regularly participate in games where even mooks start with a 18 stat before racial modifiers? (CR 1 in a game with a level 5 PC)


Whats this 'You're a bad player if you play at low levels stuff?' Sarcasm, relax.

[dextercorvia]

You regularly participate in games where even mooks start with a 18 stat before racial modifiers? (CR 1 in a game with a level 5 PC)

Sarcasm, relax.

LB has stated before that no one with less than an 18 in their primary stat would take class levels, so probably.

[Little Brother]

There are non evocation blasting options, some of which are especially useful against something in an AMF.You mean the orbs of 4~ damage/CL? Yeah, that totally will do a decent amount of damage to something of the appropriate CR.

LB has stated before that no one with less than an 18 in their primary stat would take class levels, so probably.No, I have said nothing of the sort. Care to try again?

[NineThePuma]

No, I have said nothing of the sort. Care to try again?

If I weren't busy and running in circles, I'd show you where you said it.

[Gnorman]

What I mean by "one specific build with a handbook disguise" is that your guide basically assumes that you will be a Wizard / Cleric (most likely of the cloistered variety), and that you will use the specific early-entry tricks you mention. While you do mention and evaluate a few alternate builds, you mostly do so offhandedly at best and derisively at worst.

In general, while this is an optimization handbook and therefore yes, you will recommend choices that bring a higher power level to the table, I think you assume too much in that regard, and it limits access to casual players or those whose style of play differs from yours. Handbooks should provide options, the more the better, and an evaluation thereof. There's also a caustic tonality to what you consider "suboptimal," which I think does not help your case and creates a more hostile lens through which some people will evaluate your product. Phrases like "Laugh at anyone who suggests it" or "Revoke/deny any relationship with anyone who suggests this" are unnecessarily vicious - you could benefit greatly from some distance, perspective, and a healthy dose of objectivity (the journalistic, dispassionate kind rather than the evaluative, "this is objectively better" kind, which you already seem to possess). Yes, sorcerers are inferior to wizards, but they're still Tier 2, which is more than enough for quite a few play styles and groups. Yes, beguilers are inferior to a cloistered cleric with proper domain choices, but some people prefer the spontaneity and situational versatility afforded by the class.

These are mostly quibbles about tone and accessibility, and I think that your handbook could stand to gain some benefit by mellowing things out a bit and opening yourself up to a wider range of options.

[Little Brother]

What I mean by "one specific build with a handbook disguise" is that your guide basically assumes that you will be a Wizard / Cleric (most likely of the cloistered variety), and that you will use the specific early-entry tricks you mention. While you do mention and evaluate a few alternate builds, you mostly do so offhandedly at best and derisively at worst. I've done some updating, as has TDC, and I will get a lot more done on monday. More specifics on what you want?

In general, while this is an optimization handbook and therefore yes, you will recommend choices that bring a higher power level to the table, I think you assume too much in that regard, and it limits access to casual players or those whose style of play differs from yours. Handbooks should provide options, the more the better, and an evaluation thereof. There's also a caustic tonality to what you consider "suboptimal," which I think does not help your case and creates a more hostile lens through which some people will evaluate your product. Phrases like "Laugh at anyone who suggests it" or "Revoke/deny any relationship with anyone who suggests this" are unnecessarily vicious - you could benefit greatly from some distance, perspective, and a healthy dose of objectivity (the journalistic, dispassionate kind rather than the evaluative, "this is objectively better" kind, which you already seem to possess). Yes, sorcerers are inferior to wizards, but they're still Tier 2, which is more than enough for quite a few play styles and groups. Yes, beguilers are inferior to a cloistered cleric with proper domain choices, but some people prefer to spontaneity and versatility afforded by the class. The issues aren't that they're inferior. The issue is that you lose 9s, and, for the list casters, unless you use Versatile Caster, and anything they can do, the divine side can do better. The sorcerer has no synergy outside of FS, and they both die with CL loss. I mean, it's not that it's bad, it's that, unless you're in a group where fighters can keep up, wizards are blasting, you will suck beyond belief. They can complement each other in a Gestalt build, but you're 2 levels behind in casting most of the time, and you have fewer known spells anyways. I won't judge your group, but, if you're optimizing, you cannot in good conscious use this. You can, theoretically, go with a human, take Southern Magician, Able Learner, and Versatile Caster, then take Sorcerer and Druid, take a bloodline at level 3, and then go Mystic Theurge to Fochlucan Lyrist. You do need intelligence 16 and high Wisdom and Charisma. You could take Dynamic Priest to reduce the MAD slightly, and pull off double-9s. This is still sub-optimal at best.

These are mostly quibbles about tone and accessibility, and I think that your handbook could stand to gain some benefit by mellowing things out a bit and opening yourself up to a wider range of options.Explain?

[Gnorman]

If my table rarely goes above level 15, what do I care about 9th level spells? Evaluate the class on its own merits, not relative to hypothetical level 20 power builds. Spells are tools, and I don't need to use a sledgehammer when a smaller one would do. It's not about the class you have or the spells you know - it's about how you use them. I think that your handbook efforts would be better spent exploring how to use those options rather than dismissing them outright. Try to meet us halfway in terms of optimization level? List casters may not have the full range of options available to them, they may be "inferior," but I personally much prefer their mechanics and find them to be more user-friendly and intuitive. Why can't I use them in a theurge?

Say I want to make a theurge using Sorcerer as a base. Instead of telling me that I'm wrong and I shouldn't use the Sorcerer, perhaps you could come up with a build that complements and builds on the chassis of the class?


You can, theoretically, go with a human, take Southern Magician, Able Learner, and Versatile Caster, then take Sorcerer and Druid, take a bloodline at level 3, and then go Mystic Theurge to Fochlucan Lyrist. You do need intelligence 16 and high Wisdom and Charisma

That's exactly what I'm getting at. That's perfect - rather than saying "Sorcerer doesn't work, don't use it," you say "Here's a way to make the Sorcerer work." I don't care if it is suboptimal in general - it's optimized based on what it is. There's also a subtle but important change in tone, a more positive and accommodating one.


Explain?

Your tone can veer towards the vituperative, the sarcastic, and even sometimes borderline hostile towards options you consider "inferior". It's not a particularly constructive method of presentation, and I think it fosters divisiveness that can detract from your efforts.

[sonofzeal]

Will do.
In line with this - DeepSkyBlue is fine while bolded, but on my home screen it is difficult to read when unbolded. And PaleGreen is headache-inducing. My work machine shows colours somewhat differently, so I know it varies from computer to computer, but I also know the way it displays for me is a fairly common one.

Just something to be aware of.


A Theurge is tight on feats and skills, and putting effort into a sub-optimal mechanic is a bad idea. I know you can put a lot of effort into making healing keep up, PrC and feat investment, but a Theurge is better off using those feats for Practiced Spellcaster, Alternative Spell Source, and other, actually good, feats. I can make a truenamer decent if I want to. Or, I Can make a jank truenamer. Which should I do?
My character spent a grand total of one feat on it. One feat, and a 1st level class feature, let her match high-DPR monsters in healing. Some day I might sit down and figure out how much healing I could actually get out of Cure Serious, if I were truly committed to it. But a 5th level character who only spent a single feat there was healing as much as a CR 5 Troll could dish out, while the rest of the party was free to do their thing in safety. Few other Cleric spells would have been as significant in that fight, at least off the Core list - Calm Emotions and Bestow Curse are the only ones I can see, but both offer more failure points.

I'm not saying a Theurge should focus on healing. But your examples as to how much it sucks are completely ridiculous, and massively exaggerating the point. It generally gets a bad rap on these boards and that's okay, but you take it to a level of vitriol and denigration that is simply not warranted.

[Leon]

No. Absolutely false. A Focused Evocater is and always will be bad, especially if they ban Transmutation and Conjuration.


Nothing in D&D is an absolute - it has so many Variables that what you hold as the best way to play a Wizard will not always work and what you hate most for the class to do will.

All Classes work well when played well.

[sonofzeal]

Nothing in D&D is an absolute - it has so many Variables that what you hold as the best way to play a Wizard will not always work and what you hate most for the class to do will.

All Classes work well when played well.
On this note - my all time favourite spell in the game is (Explosive Forceful) Great Thunderclap. Make ALL the saves!

http://weknowmemes.com/wp-content/gallery/x-all-the-things/x-all-the-things-template.jpg

[Little Brother]

In line with this - DeepSkyBlue is fine while bolded, but on my home screen it is difficult to read when unbolded. And PaleGreen is headache-inducing. My work machine shows colours somewhat differently, so I know it varies from computer to computer, but I also know the way it displays for me is a fairly common one.

Just something to be aware of.Okay, I'll go fix it.

My character spent a grand total of one feat on it. One feat, and a 1st level class feature, let her match high-DPR monsters in healing. Some day I might sit down and figure out how much healing I could actually get out of Cure Serious, if I were truly committed to it. But a 5th level character who only spent a single feat there was healing as much as a CR 5 Troll could dish out, while the rest of the party was free to do their thing in safety. Few other Cleric spells would have been as significant in that fight, at least off the Core list - Calm Emotions and Bestow Curse are the only ones I can see, but both offer more failure points.And mine spent a minimum of one feat, too, depending on which early entry I went with. Guess which one of these two will contribute more to the party? Grease shuts down said troll. Glitterdust, Web, and so on do the same thing. The difference is, I used a powerful, useful spell that can be used in other situations.

I'm not saying a Theurge should focus on healing. But your examples as to how much it sucks are completely ridiculous, and massively exaggerating the point. It generally gets a bad rap on these boards and that's okay, but you take it to a level of vitriol and denigration that is simply not warranted.Explain.

Nothing in D&D is an absolute - it has so many Variables that what you hold as the best way to play a Wizard will not always work and what you hate most for the class to do will.

All Classes work well when played well.No. A Truenamer does not work well, ever. It works passably, at best. A Focused Evocater does not work well. There is an absolute to everything, and, in this case, the absolute is that those classes do. Not. Work. The Evocater mentioned above? Doesn't work. It lacks all of the toys, and cries when Cindy pokes her head in, or when the mail arrives. A Truenamer doesn't work. I've played one. It can keep up in the same team that a Samurai or a fighter can keep up. It cannot keep up with a bunch of ToB/Casters.

[sonofzeal]

Okay, I'll go fix it.
Appreciated. :smallsmile:

And mine spent a minimum of one feat, too, depending on which early entry I went with. Guess which one of these two will contribute more to the party? Grease shuts down said troll. Glitterdust, Web, and so on do the same thing. The difference is, I used a powerful, useful spell that can be used in other situations.
Given that most monsters deal hitpoint damage, especially at low/mid levels, the ability to keep pace with them IS useful in a variety of situations. And since Clerics have spontaneous healing, there's no real opportunity cost; prepare your Bestow Curses and whatnot in your Cleric slots, but tossing out a 30-point heal at lvl 5 is a valid use of the slot. The spells you list ar all Arcane and not likely going in your Cleric slots, and even then Glitterdust and Web have failure points in the saving throw, and Web additionally requires environmental features to be used at all. And Grease is a little overrated, especially since most parties have one or more melee people who are fairly likely to run up to the thing and start swinging anyway. It's a good spell, but more in an "I don't know what else to do so maybe this'll help a bit" sort of way. Great for wands, and situationally awesome, but


Explain.
While a lvl 1 character can do a huge amount of damage with a single swing if fully optimized for it and using a 1/day ability and assuming they hit, a lvl 5 Orc Barbarian (which is what we should be comparing the Cleric to) is doing... about the same, give or take depending on optimization and situational boosts. At 5th level the Barb won't have special enhancements on their sword. They'll have exactly one more feat to play with. Their Strength has gone up a measly 1 point. Their Rage hasn't improved at all. They might, best case scenario, have a +2 enhancement to Strength. These are piddly little boosts compared to the numbers they're putting out at lvl 1.

Meanwhile, you're comparing against a bog standard Cleric who hasn't even glanced at his Cure line before. You're comparing a character fully optimized for single-hit damage, with a character who's put exactly zero effort into making Cure worthwhile. You'd be better off comparing it to the damage a lvl 5 Human Warrior with Elite Array does with a longsword; that's the type of apathetic approach to Healing you've taken. It's a totally false comparison, and completely distorts the situation. But you say it like it proves that nobody should be using Healing and that it's a total waste of time and resources.

[Little Brother]

Appreciated. :smallsmile:

Given that most monsters deal hitpoint damage, especially at low/mid levels, the ability to keep pace with them IS useful in a variety of situations. And since Clerics have spontaneous healing, there's no real opportunity cost; prepare your Bestow Curses and whatnot in your Cleric slots, but tossing out a 30-point heal at lvl 5 is a valid use of the slot. The spells you list ar all Arcane and not likely going in your Cleric slots, and even then Glitterdust and Web have failure points in the saving throw, and Web additionally requires environmental features to be used at all. And Grease is a little overrated, especially since most parties have one or more melee people who are fairly likely to run up to the thing and start swinging anyway. It's a good spell, but more in an "I don't know what else to do so maybe this'll help a bit" sort of way. Great for wands, and situationally awesome, but Web still applies, Glitterdust, and so on do as well. Or, if you really want something else to do, you can use the buffs that make a Cleric good. Your buddy the Warblade? I think he could use an Animal Buff, maybe Bear's Strength, or whatever. You could Fear a target, depending on its HD. Summon a minion. Hold Person is pro. You have domains for a reason, too. I can go on.

While a lvl 1 character can do a huge amount of damage with a single swing if fully optimized for it and using a 1/day ability and assuming they hit, a lvl 5 Orc Barbarian (which is what we should be comparing the Cleric to) is doing... about the same, give or take depending on optimization and situational boosts. At 5th level the Barb won't have special enhancements on their sword. They'll have exactly one more feat to play with. Their Strength has gone up a measly 1 point. Their Rage hasn't improved at all. They might, best case scenario, have a +2 enhancement to Strength. These are piddly little boosts compared to the numbers they're putting out at lvl 1. At level 5? A +1 weapon, a +2 Str item, and other stuff'd work. You get, with a +2 str item and a +1 Falchion, 2d4+1+13+10., or, on average, about 29, as opposed to the 19 we were averaging at level 1. Let's bump it up to level six, though. What can this hypothetical healer or cleric do at level 6? This hypothetical Orc has a Valorous Falchion(since the basic orc starts with it), +2 Str gauntlets, and I dunno, something else. Even if we don't go Valorous, we can grab the Bands of Blood Rage. Our damage turns from 29 to 116, or at least 68.

Meanwhile, you're comparing against a bog standard Cleric who hasn't even glanced at his Cure line before. You're comparing a character fully optimized for single-hit damage, with a character who's put exactly zero effort into making Cure worthwhile. You'd be better off comparing it to the damage a lvl 5 Human Warrior with Elite Array does with a longsword; that's the type of apathetic approach to Healing you've taken. It's a totally false comparison, and completely distorts the situation. But you say it like it proves that nobody should be using Healing and that it's a total waste of time and resources.Okay, I'll bite. Orc(Because humans are stupid for optimized non-initiator melee) Orc Warrior 5. I've got PA, Str 20~, and BAB 5. That's 2d6(Greatsword)+17, or 24. With a longsword, we're looking at 21, or 19 one-handing it. Whaddayknow? Same thing when using a jank weapon 1-handed. Looks like your cleric is SOL.

And, for reference, no. I said Cure spells are a waste of time. Just stick with Vigors and Heal and you'll be fine.

EDIT: Damn you, arithmetic! I will get you yet!

[sreservoir]

you're optimizing a build somewhat, and comparing the result to and entirely unop build for healing. of course your numbers will be skewed in favor of the damage-dealer.

[Leon]

the absolute is that those classes do. Not. Work.

They Work, now whether they work to your exacting requirements is another matter but overall they work and all are playable options.

Now with "keeping" up - a good group will keep up and work well regardless of what actual classes make its numbers.

We did have a batman style wizard in the current group for a while, he was a ok character but for all that fancy control magic its pointless if he doesn't work with the rest of the group, the player was eventually asked to leave outside reasons but we didn't miss that wizard at all and probably have done better since without it

Now I'm puzzled, you dislike Evokers for what they do yet are happy with the mailman sorcerer (which from what i read a damage optimized sorcerer) which with a similar amount of Optimization the Evoker would do similar things.

No idea what a cindy is aside from a Character sheet that was posted here which isn't helpful. The Mailman guide has some useful stuff in it to keep in mind should i every want to play a Artillery Platform.

[sreservoir]

also mind that, even if a wizard focus specializes in evocation and bans conjuration, transmutation, and illusion, it's still a wizard with divination, necromancy, abjuration, forcecage, and contingency, and still has a huge toolkit.

[Little Brother]

They Work, now whether they work to your exacting requirements is another matter but overall they work and all are playable options. Gee, I never realized a class that gets worse as it leveled was a good thing. Maybe you should meet up with the guy who came up with Risen Martyr and the Mountblanc PrC.

Now with "keeping" up - a good group will keep up and work well regardless of what actual classes make its numbers.Absolutely false. A monk will never be able to keep up with a StP Erudite. EVER,

We did have a batman style wizard in the current group for a while, he was a ok character but for all that fancy control magic its pointless if he doesn't work with the rest of the group, the player was eventually asked to leave outside reasons but we didn't miss that wizard at all and probably have done better since without it Then he sucked. Next.

Now I'm puzzled, you dislike Evokers for what they do yet are happy with the mailman sorcerer (which from what i read a damage optimized sorcerer) which with a similar amount of Optimization the Evoker would do similar things.Because Mailmen do it WELL, an Evoker doesn't

also mind that, even if a wizard focus specializes in evocation and bans conjuration, transmutation, and illusion, it's still a wizard with divination, necromancy, abjuration, forcecage, and contingency, and still has a huge toolkit.A toolkit full of oversized, old, rusty, out of date and falling apart tools? Yeah, no. It has almost none of the important toys. It is terrible.

[Master Thrower]

Absolutely false. A monk will never be able to keep up with a StP Erudite. EVER,


Maybe when a player is not playing with a group, but against hypothetical numbers then yeah sure, but ultimately if playing with a group of people, especially ones friends, people aren't going to be trying to make somebody feel useless.

[Essence_of_War]

It is, however, pretty freaking hard to make a straight monk (why isn't he a swordsage again?:smallamused:) useful alongside an stp erudite.

[Incanur]

It is, however, pretty freaking hard to make a straight monk (why isn't he a swordsage again?:smallamused:) useful alongside an stp erudite.

Monks make fantastic targets for buff spells. Just saying. :smallwink:

[Hecuba]

Gee, I never realized a class that gets worse as it leveled was a good thing. Maybe you should meet up with the guy who came up with Risen Martyr and the Mountblanc PrC.

Actually, if you look at fictional depictions of true-name style magic, that's probably something intended as a feature. I don't think it's good game design in the context of 3.5 as a whole, but to presume it's never something that is desirable is likely folly.


Because Mailmen do it WELL, an Evoker doesn't

Define "Well." If you treat mailman-level finesse as a minimum level of optimization, your guide will have a very limited audience and provide that small audience with very limited utility.

"Ways you can make your MT build more optimal" is a much more useful way to present a guide than "acceptably optimized build(s) you should use for MT." As an example, you may not be willing to play a MT with W3/C3 entry or similar, but that a build cannot be optimized within those constraints.

As an aside, I like what you've done with rewriting since the initial post: it comes off as much more distanced and objective.


Maybe when a player is not playing with a group, but against hypothetical numbers then yeah sure, but ultimately if playing with a group of people, especially ones friends, people aren't going to be trying to make somebody feel useless.

Having 4 people need to pull their punches to humor 1 person may be a more addressable problem than having 1 person who can't contribute, but it's still significant problem.

[sreservoir]

Monks make fantastic targets for buff spells. Just saying. :smallwink:

yeah, they can derive more absolute benefit from being buffed than most other classes!

[dextercorvia]

You mean the orbs of 4~ damage/CL? Yeah, that totally will do a decent amount of damage to something of the appropriate CR.
No, I have said nothing of the sort. Care to try again?

My mistake, I was remembering you saying:


No, people intentionally crippling their builds are chumps

Regarding your opinion on Orb of X, I find them to be better than most other options against someone in an AMF. I believe you said the following about a Theurge in another thread.


However, that said, there are very few problems that cannot be solved with enough fireballs. And you have enough :smalltongue:

I like the new look of the first post. I have a zero early entry cheese optimized Theurge.

SavageBard5/UrPriest2/MysticTheurge3/SublimeChord1/MysticTheurge5/X4

[Urpriest]

My mistake, I was remembering you saying:



Regarding your opinion on Orb of X, I find them to be better than most other options against someone in an AMF. I believe you said the following about a Theurge in another thread.



I like the new look of the first post. I have a zero early entry cheese optimized Theurge.

SavageBard5/UrPriest2/MysticTheurge3/SublimeChord1/MysticTheurge5/X4

Not legal. You didn't have Sublime Chord prior to entering Mystic Theurge, so by its own casting text you can't use it to advance it.

[dextercorvia]

Not legal. You didn't have Sublime Chord prior to entering Mystic Theurge, so by its own casting text you can't use it to advance it.

Perhaps. I mentally insert the word level in there like it appears elsewhere, but you can wait for Mystic Theurge until after Sublime Chord, if necessary.

[herrhauptmann]

Not legal. You didn't have Sublime Chord prior to entering Mystic Theurge, so by its own casting text you can't use it to advance it.
Too many "it's," which PrC is invalidating the approach?
So then...

(Savage) Bard5/Urpriest3/Bard+2/SublimeChord2/Mystic Theurge 8

Could easily go bard7 then urpriest 2, but I figure getting a little bit of urpriest sooner is better than later.
Need 7 levels of bard to qualify for Sublime chord casting limits (or bard1/wiz5, or bard1/sorc6)
I choose sublime chord 2 for song of arcane power. By 11th level, you're looking at 14 ranks in perform. Easily a +6 charisma. And probably a masterwork instrument of some sort. With no effort, skill boosters, or feats, you're going to be getting a +4 CL on an 8 or better.
Nor does it seem to specify Sublime Chord casting only. So it'll boost even Urpriest casting.


Now that I look at it, it seems odd, you can enter sublime chord by level 7 (wiz5/bard1). So you'll hit SC2 when you're level 8. To use song of arcane power, you need 12 ranks in perform. Something you can't do for another level...

edit:
Bugger, how did it take me that long to type that up? :smalleek:
Fixed build.

[dextercorvia]

You need one more level before Sublime Chord to fit the skill requirements, but yeah, that's basically what I meant.

[Leon]

Absolutely false. A monk will never be able to keep up with a StP Erudite. EVER,

Why the fixation on "keeping up". A Class doesn't need to keep up it needs to work with the others in its team to achieve the goals they have. The Monk gets a lot of hate but it is just as playable as any Wizard is.



Then he sucked. Next.

Yet it was supposedly the best way to play that class according to what is widely believed on here and other places.



Because Mailmen do it WELL, an Evoker doesn't


If you apply the same level of optimization to a Evoker you will reach the similar results.



A toolkit full of oversized, old, rusty, out of date and falling apart tools? Yeah, no. It has almost none of the important toys. It is terrible.

Depends on what a Important Tool is - what is important to one player is not necessary the best for all players.

[Little Brother]

It is, however, pretty freaking hard to make a straight monk (why isn't he a swordsage again?:smallamused:) useful alongside an stp erudite.You mean impossible if the Erudite does anything resembling competent.

My mistake, I was remembering you saying:Yeah, crippling your build means you're a chump.This is different. Care to try again?

Regarding your opinion on Orb of X, I find them to be better than most other options against someone in an AMF. I believe you said the following about a Theurge in another thread.Yeah, in jest, bro. If you need to pull out an old joke to try to make a poor point, you should really reanalyze your stance.

I like the new look of the first post. I have a zero early entry cheese optimized Theurge.

SavageBard5/UrPriest2/MysticTheurge3/SublimeChord1/MysticTheurge5/X4Taking Mystic Theurge before you get SC is a bad idea. A better build would be, assuming you start at high enough level, is druid 1/Bard 6/Ur-Priest 3/SC 1/Fochlucan Lyrist(If you have the skill points, otherwise just drop Druid and go MT afterwards).

Why the fixation on "keeping up". A Class doesn't need to keep up it needs to work with the others in its team to achieve the goals they have. The Monk gets a lot of hate but it is just as playable as any Wizard is.Against CR-appropriate encounters? No. It isn't.

Yet it was supposedly the best way to play that class according to what is widely believed on here and other places.So? Because its the best way doesn't mean he did it well. Difference. Try again.

If you apply the same level of optimization to a Evoker you will reach the similar results.Not at all. You don't get the Sorcerer-only spells. Try again.

Depends on what a Important Tool is - what is important to one player is not necessary the best for all players.Not true. Numbers never lie.

[dextercorvia]

Yeah, crippling your build means you're a chump.This is different. Care to try again?
I was conceding the point, although since you are so argumentative, would you say that having less than a natural 18 in your primary stat is crippling your build?



Yeah, in jest, bro. If you need to pull out an old joke to try to make a poor point, you should really reanalyze your stance.

There was nothing that indicated sarcasm in that post, unlike many of these, bro. Cf. Poe's Law. You still haven't answered the quesion of how you plan to deal with something in an AMF or that has SR:Allofit.


Numbers never lie.

People do. All the time. To themselves. Especially about numbers.

[Little Brother]

I was conceding the point, although since you are so argumentative, would you say that having less than a natural 18 in your primary stat is crippling your build?You have two casting stats, you could make a build that had 2 16s. Anything lower than that in PB is gimping.

There was nothing that indicated sarcasm in that post, unlike many of these, bro. Cf. Poe's Law. You still haven't answered the quesion of how you plan to deal with something in an AMF or that has SR:Allofit.The ":smalltongue:"

And simple: SR:No spells and things such as Solid Fog to control it. AMF has a range of 10 feet. 5' step or otherwise move, then celerity for your actions back. Timestop is pro for that. There are some SoDs or effective SoDs with SR:No, I think.

People do. All the time. To themselves. Especially about numbers.Yeah, so? Numbers never lie. For a blast wizard is piss-terrible. The best tools are the best tools. Period.

[dextercorvia]

And simple: SR:No spells and things such as Solid Fog to control it. AMF has a range of 10 feet. 5' step or otherwise move, then celerity for your actions back. Timestop is pro for that. There are some SoDs or effective SoDs with SR:No, I think.

Sold Fog won't help against a Brute in an AMF. The aura will cut through it like a knife. Do you know what a SR:No spell that works in an AMF and is a Save or Suck? Orb of Fire. There may be others, and I would encourage you to find some that deal no damage, since you think that any spell that does direct damage is inferior to one that doesn't regardless of the circumstances.

[Little Brother]

Sold Fog won't help against a Brute in an AMF. The aura will cut through it like a knife. Do you know what a SR:No spell that works in an AMF and is a Save or Suck? Orb of Fire. There may be others, and I would encourage you to find some that deal no damage, since you think that any spell that does direct damage is inferior to one that doesn't regardless of the circumstances.Brute?

And, no. Extraordinary Spell Aim, Invoke Magic, Martial Study: BY CROM!, or, yanno, any GOOD instantaneous Conjuration, like, say PLANE SHIFT, Wall of Stone them in, or exceptions, so you can Wall of Force/Prismatic Wall them in, hell, maybe, depending on your ruling, Forcecage them in. You can drop a Prismatic Sphere and tell them to suck it. I can think of plenty of ways to evade an AMF. Plus, you could be a cleric, and qualify for IoM, so laugh at AMFs regardless.

[dextercorvia]

Brute?

And, no. Extraordinary Spell Aim, Invoke Magic, Martial Study: BY CROM!, or, yanno, any GOOD instantaneous Conjuration, like, say PLANE SHIFT, Wall of Stone them in, or exceptions, so you can Wall of Force/Prismatic Wall them in, hell, maybe, depending on your ruling, Forcecage them in. You can drop a Prismatic Sphere and tell them to suck it. I can think of plenty of ways to evade an AMF. Plus, you could be a cleric, and qualify for IoM, so laugh at AMFs regardless.

Brute? -- Baddy, something that will hurt you, etc.

Extraordinary Spell Aim -- Only helps if you are the one who cast the AMF, I'm thinking of something like the Dwarven Knight that Curmudgeon is working on. Lives in his own AMF, and can make your life miserable with Ex abilities.

Invoke Magic -- Source?

CROM requires you to be in the AMF before you can spend a standard action to end it. I hope you are prepared to be in the bad place better than that.

Forcecage is too small to cast inside an AMF. AMF may not penetrate an existing one, but you won't be able to cast a new one.

Prismatic Sphere is Centered on you, so it is good for defense, but you can't leave them in one, unless you occupy their square while you cast it, and then move away.

Your various Wall Solutions are going to require multiple actions to set up.

Plane Shift is a touch spell, and you won't be able to cast it if you are in an AMF, so you will need at least 15ft of reach, or metamagic to pull this off.

Also, AMF is a 5th level spell. It would be reasonable to run into it beginning at 7th level (for an ECL+2 encounter). All of your solutions require feats or 5th and higher level spells (multiples of most of the 5ths), or you know, you can have a generally useful Orb of X spell prepared, and not spend significant build resources overcoming one particular kind of challenge.

Care to try again?

[enderlord99]

Numbers never lie. For a blast wizard is piss-terrible. The best tools are the best tools. Period.

Are you implying that D&D is competitive, and "everyone who matters" uses pun-pun whenever possible?

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Are you implying that D&D is competitive, and "everyone who matters" uses pun-pun whenever possible?

It's fairly obvious that Little Brother prefers a higher level of optimization and is rather vocal about it. Personally, I like tricks like Precious Apprentice+Focused Specialist to get 3rd level spells with only one level of wizard.

It's part of the reason why I want to help with this handbook and added the bit with the asterisks on my edit of the first post. Some things will work at some places, but it is beyond the scope of this guide to say "Do this! Only do this!"

[Akal Saris]

I skipped the last 5 pages, but it should be noted that if allowed, Dragon Magazine 325, Pg. 60-63, is very useful to all sorts of theurges, due to the number of theurgic feats.

Alternative Source Spell, already mentioned in the guide, is the main one, but several others can be quite handy.

[DementedFellow]

I would also like to see how someone could build a spontaneous caster theurge.

Some people (like myself) can't be bothered with the whole "preparation" business. Any help for people like me?

[Little Brother]

Invoke Magic -- Source?LoM.

CROM requires you to be in the AMF before you can spend a standard action to end it. I hope you are prepared to be in the bad place better than that.Uh, you made it sound like I'd be anyways. Also, I hear Celerity is a good spell. I also hear that you don't ever even need to prep it, as you have 8+ spontaneous spells.

Forcecage is too small to cast inside an AMF. AMF may not penetrate an existing one, but you won't be able to cast a new one.Uh, no. It's got plenty of range. Try again?

Prismatic Sphere is Centered on you, so it is good for defense, but you can't leave them in one, unless you occupy their square while you cast it, and then move away.So you can get all your spells up? You are assuming that wizards never have any buffs ready. Any countermeasures. And never have the idiot with the sword. No summons. Nothing. It is absurd.

Your various Wall Solutions are going to require multiple actions to set up.Uh, I hear that Wall of Stone has at least 45' of stone wall. I hear that'll buy you a turn...

Plane Shift is a touch spell, and you won't be able to cast it if you are in an AMF, so you will need at least 15ft of reach, or metamagic to pull this off.And I can think of multiple good metamagics to get this off. Metamagic is pretty pro, you know?

Also, AMF is a 5th level spell. It would be reasonable to run into it beginning at 7th level (for an ECL+2 encounter). All of your solutions require feats or 5th and higher level spells (multiples of most of the 5ths), or you know, you can have a generally useful Orb of X spell prepared, and not spend significant build resources overcoming one particular kind of challenge.Okay, IoM gives me immunity at level 3, anyways. To quote:

Care to try again?

Are you implying that D&D is competitive, and "everyone who matters" uses pun-pun whenever possible?Trollolol? Seriously, optimization=pun-pun? I'm not going to bother going any further.

I skipped the last 5 pages, but it should be noted that if allowed, Dragon Magazine 325, Pg. 60-63, is very useful to all sorts of theurges, due to the number of theurgic feats.

Alternative Source Spell, already mentioned in the guide, is the main one, but several others can be quite handy.I'll go expand that in the OP, then.

And, TDC, I actually play at a low tier 3 table, mostly ToB stuff.I, however, believe people need to know the high end before playing the low end, so they don't screw themselves over.

[Little Brother]

I would also like to see how someone could build a spontaneous caster theurge.

Some people (like myself) can't be bothered with the whole "preparation" business. Any help for people like me?The best one is already covered in the OP. You will want something along the lines of Bard 1/Favored Soul 9/Sublime Chord 1/Mystic Theurge 9.

Because you are behind, anyways, when casting spontaneously, you really need fast progression, so you will need Sublime Chord or Nar Demonbinder.

That help?

[Geigan]

I would also like to see how someone could build a spontaneous caster theurge.

Some people (like myself) can't be bothered with the whole "preparation" business. Any help for people like me?
Here's something from earlier in the thread that I drummed up. It's big no no on Little Brother's list though because it uses sorcerer instead of sublime chord.:smalltongue:

All that said I wanted to mention the Versatile Spellcaster+heighten trick for spontaneous theurges which as always has it's contentiousness RAW-wise. The only truly SAD spontaneous theurge would be a sorcerer/shugenja off the top of my head, but I only know that because that's the one I've been planning on playing in my next campaign.

The build went something like:
Sorc2/Shugenja1/Mystic TheurgeX/Arcane HierophantX/???/profit!
probably a dip of sacred exorcist for turn undead into DMM.

Bamboo spirit folk(OA) lets you get into Arcane Hierophant anyway you want, and with the sorcerer ACF from UA you can get a pretty decent little Animal Companion after you take all the levels in Hierophant. Requires at least a 12 int to keep up with skill prereqs here or there but that shouldn't be that big a deal since you're SAD for everything else.
The contentiousness RAW wise I mentioned is just whether versatile spellcaster+heighten gets you in to theurge early, which is really more a DM will throw books at you for using early entry shenanigans in general than any real argument against the RAW. You're the slowest kind of theurge around so no big deal.

Also note that when I said only true SAD theurge, I meant that shugenja is really the only pure charisma based divine spontaneous caster. This is obviously not as strong as a prepared theurge as you're delaying yourself a whole spell level in comparison to faster progression classes on both sides even with early entry tricks. It still gets 9ths though at least and will let you get your theurging on earlier than a sublime chord build, so I suppose it's at least passable. Make sure to take the animal companion instead of a familiar ACF for your sorcerer so you can get a nice pet from your Arcane Hierophant levels.

[dextercorvia]

LoM.
9th level evocation (which you were maligning earlier) and it only allows you to cast from within, not to cast into an AMF.



Uh, you made it sound like I'd be anyways.

No, I asked how you would take out an enemy who was sitting in one. Since I was suggesting Orbs, I thought it was clear the caster wasn't in the AMF.



Uh, no. It's got plenty of range. Try again?

Range isn't the problem. The barred cage (biggest option) is a 20' cube, that is going to put it right on top of the AMF. You can't cast it into the AMF.



So you can get all your spells up? You are assuming that wizards never have any buffs ready. Any countermeasures. And never have the idiot with the sword. No summons. Nothing. It is absurd.

Nothing of the sort, I just said that you couldn't use Prismatic Sphere to completely bypass the guy.



Uh, I hear that Wall of Stone has at least 45' of stone wall. I hear that'll buy you a turn...

That is 5' tall, and won't even surround the AMF


Okay, IoM gives me immunity at level 3, anyways.

IoM only lets you cast from within the AMF, it does nothing to allow regular spells to penetrate from outside.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

And, TDC, I actually play at a low tier 3 table, mostly ToB stuff.I, however, believe people need to know the high end before playing the low end, so they don't screw themselves over.

Fair enough, Little Brother. I like various "tricks," too. I love my wizards, simply because it is fun to make a magical person and think "How do I want to be magical?"

As others have said, the guide looks sophomoric and "in your face." So were past guides by treantmonk and The Logic Ninja, yes. I enjoyed reading their guides, yes, but such is not everyone's cup of tea.

In so far as my hand is in these regards, the guide should be about the options someone may or may not have. I know I have a copy of Dragon Magazine 325 around here somewhere, but it is a resource not readily available to me. I have a large library, but that doesn't always mean I want to double check every single book I own when making a character. I mean, I might, but odds are I'll do a quick search for "X Handbook" and then ask the forum.:smalltongue:

[Little Brother]

9th level evocation (which you were maligning earlier) and it only allows you to cast from within, not to cast into an AMF.I never maligned evocation. Try again.

No, I asked how you would take out an enemy who was sitting in one. Since I was suggesting Orbs, I thought it was clear the caster wasn't in the AMF.And I have given you some ways.

Range isn't the problem. The barred cage (biggest option) is a 20' cube, that is going to put it right on top of the AMF. You can't cast it into the AMF.
This powerful spell brings into being an immobile, invisible cubical prison composed of either bars of force or solid walls of force (your choice).

Creatures within the area are caught and contained unless they are too big to fit inside, in which case the spell automatically fails. Teleportation and other forms of astral travel provide a means of escape, but the force walls or bars extend into the Ethereal Plane, blocking ethereal travel.

Like a wall of force spell, a forcecage resists dispel magic, but it is vulnerable to a disintegrate spell, and it can be destroyed by a sphere of annihilation or a rod of cancellation.

Barred Cage
This version of the spell produces a 20-foot cube made of bands of force (similar to a wall of force spell) for bars. The bands are a half-inch wide, with half-inch gaps between them. Any creature capable of passing through such a small space can escape; others are confined. You can’t attack a creature in a barred cage with a weapon unless the weapon can fit between the gaps. Even against such weapons (including arrows and similar ranged attacks), a creature in the barred cage has cover. All spells and breath weapons can pass through the gaps in the bars.

Windowless Cell
This version of the spell produces a 10-foot cube with no way in and no way out. Solid walls of force form its six sides.
n invisible barrier surrounds you and moves with you. The space within this barrier is impervious to most magical effects, including spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities. Likewise, it prevents the functioning of any magic items or spells within its confines.

An antimagic field suppresses any spell or magical effect used within, brought into, or cast into the area, but does not dispel it. Time spent within an antimagic field counts against the suppressed spell’s duration.

Summoned creatures of any type and incorporeal undead wink out if they enter an antimagic field. They reappear in the same spot once the field goes away. Time spent winked out counts normally against the duration of the conjuration that is maintaining the creature. If you cast antimagic field in an area occupied by a summoned creature that has spell resistance, you must make a caster level check (1d20 + caster level) against the creature’s spell resistance to make it wink out. (The effects of instantaneous conjurations are not affected by an antimagic field because the conjuration itself is no longer in effect, only its result.)

A normal creature can enter the area, as can normal missiles. Furthermore, while a magic sword does not function magically within the area, it is still a sword (and a masterwork sword at that). The spell has no effect on golems and other constructs that are imbued with magic during their creation process and are thereafter self-supporting (unless they have been summoned, in which case they are treated like any other summoned creatures). Elementals, corporeal undead, and outsiders are likewise unaffected unless summoned. These creatures’ spell-like or supernatural abilities, however, may be temporarily nullified by the field. Dispel magic does not remove the field, though Mage's Disjunction might.

Two or more antimagic fields sharing any of the same space have no effect on each other. Certain spells, such as wall of force, prismatic sphere, and prismatic wall, remain unaffected by antimagic field (see the individual spell descriptions). Artifacts and deities are unaffected by mortal magic such as this.

Should a creature be larger than the area enclosed by the barrier, any part of it that lies outside the barrier is unaffected by the field.You were saying?

Nothing of the sort, I just said that you couldn't use Prismatic Sphere to completely bypass the guy.I beg to differ. I can teleport out of it, and come back more preped.

That is 5' tall, and won't even surround the AMFOr a wall that is otherwise tall enough, but long enough too require a double move, thus buying turns to get away.

IoM only lets you cast from within the AMF, it does nothing to allow regular spells to penetrate from outside.Okay? I cast inside the AMF defensively. I use Planeshift. I use Finger of Death, or any other SoD. I use other Batman spells, you know, the actually useful ones.

I would also like to note that mundane flight costs 10K GP for twice your land speed in flight.

[dextercorvia]

I'll have more time for a response later, but you need to double check your Wall of Force/AMF interactions. An AMF won't cause a Wall of Force (and probably a Forcecage) to wink out, however, you still can't cast one into an existing AMF.

[Leon]

The best tools are the best tools. Period.

Indeed the best tools are best - but for what job?
The wizard is a tradesman that can be anything from a handyman to a master craftsman in his chosen field of expertise.

Wizards like tradesman come in all shapes and sizes and all are good at what they do - they may not be the career that a person in particular would choose but all are valid options.



I never maligned evocation.

Just Evokers and the thought of anyone using that play style on a wizard.



All this Theurging has got me wanting to play a Shunjena/Sorcerer Theurge now (Buff & Heals on the Divine Side and a Weapons Platform on the Sorcerer side - I'd do an evoker but the synergy of two CHA casters is too nice to pass up)

[Little Brother]

Indeed the best tools are best - but for what job?
The wizard is a tradesman that can be anything from a handyman to a master craftsman in his chosen field of expertise.

Wizards like tradesman come in all shapes and sizes and all are good at what they do - they may not be the career that a person in particular would choose but all are valid options.Taking the metaphor too far, thus ruining the meaning.

All this Theurging has got me wanting to play a Shunjena/Sorcerer Theurge now (Buff & Heals on the Divine Side and a Weapons Platform on the Sorcerer side - I'd do an evoker but the synergy of two CHA casters is too nice to pass up)Okay, please tell me how it goes :smallsmile:. Want specific help on the build?

[Leon]

Okay, please tell me how it goes :smallsmile:. Want specific help on the build?

Its in planing atm - On the off chance that something irreversible happens to my Cleric (given that we know the next big encounter involves a Pit Fiend and a large host of other assorted nasty ex-planar beings.)

currently at
Dream Dwarf
Shugenja 4/ Sorcerer 4/ MT 5
Prac Spellcaster

[Geigan]

Its in planing atm - On the off chance that something irreversible happens to my Cleric (given that we know the next big encounter involves a Pit Fiend and a large host of other assorted nasty ex-planar beings.)

currently at
Dream Dwarf
Shugenja 4/ Sorcerer 4/ MT 5
Prac Spellcaster

I suppose you and your group don't like early entry tricks then?

[Little Brother]

Its in planing atm - On the off chance that something irreversible happens to my Cleric (given that we know the next big encounter involves a Pit Fiend and a large host of other assorted nasty ex-planar beings.)

currently at
Dream Dwarf
Shugenja 4/ Sorcerer 4/ MT 5
Prac SpellcasterYou still are casting 4th level spells when wizards are casting 7s. I would recommend something like a Bloodline(DrC) and Versatile Caster. You'd be Sorcerer 1/Shugenja 4/MT 8, so 9th level Sorcerer casting and 12 level Shugenja casting. I understand wanting to avoid some early entry shenanigans, but losing 4 levels is INCREDIBLY painful. Also, the Magic-Blooded, 0 LA, -2 Wis +2 Cha, and some nifty SLAs. The best power-utility/lack of cheese ratio for a low-OP build is Sorcerer 2/Shugenja 1/Mystic Theurge 10, or Shugenja 2/Sorcerer 1, no flaws, using human and Southern Magician, a Bloodline feat, and Versatile caster. Only 1 of the one you want to focus on up front, I'd suggest, so you can go straight on the other class once you're done with Theurge. Like, say, Shugenja 2/Sorcerer 1/Mystic Theurge 10/Sorcerer progression 7.

You know, you could go Human Bard 1/Shugenja 9/Sublime Chord 1/Mystic Theurge 9. Southern Magician gives you the 2nd level arcane spells, Initiate of Mili lets you stack Shugenja and Bard for IC.

Hope this helps.

[Essence_of_War]

Even something as simple as Precocious Apprentice gets your sorc/shugen into MT at ECL 7 rather than ECL 9.

If your DM doesn't like it, you might gently point out, that 1) you're already a full level behind a prepared caster and 2) a wizard/archivist gets into MT at ECL 7 w/ NO early entry tricks at all, and it's kind of stupid that the spontaneous theurge has to be an EXTRA 2 levels behind the prepared caster for no reason...

[Leon]

I'll keep it in mind.

[dextercorvia]

I'll keep it in mind.

I won't tell you to use early entry, if you don't think it is good for your game.

Before ability bonuses, your spells per day will look like:

12/12/12/12/8.

As a single classed caster (of either variety) you will have:

6/6/6/6/6/6/4.

Leaving out 0th level spells -- which will mainly be for flavor at that level, your Theurge will have 44 spells in levels 1-4. The SCS (Single Classed Sorcerer or Shugenja) will have 34 spells from levels 1-6. If you think that you will need more than 34 spells, then you might be making the right choice, but it seems to me that that is a lot of spells.

[Heliomance]

This strikes me as an appropriate place to ask for advice on a build I've been wondering about for a while - how to best get into War Weaver with divine casting? It requires and advances only arcane casting, but the tapestry can be used with divine spells if you have them, so clearly a theurge is the way to go, as all the best buffs are divine. The required five levels sunk into not advancing divine casting is painful though. Thoughts?

I don't particularly care about getting arcane 9s, I want it to have the best divine casting possible. The arcane is only there to satisfy the requirements.

[dextercorvia]

This strikes me as an appropriate place to ask for advice on a build I've been wondering about for a while - how to best get into War Weaver with divine casting? It requires and advances only arcane casting, but the tapestry can be used with divine spells if you have them, so clearly a theurge is the way to go, as all the best buffs are divine. The required five levels sunk into not advancing divine casting is painful though. Thoughts?

I don't particularly care about getting arcane 9s, I want it to have the best divine casting possible. The arcane is only there to satisfy the requirements.

A spell domain cleric can cast arcane spells via Anyspell and Greater Anyspell. That would qualify you at level 11, so long as you don't buy in to the plurality argument. Since those spells are a class feature, it may qualify cleric as an arcane spellcasting class, and actually allow it to advance with War Weaver.

Text trumps table Rainbow Servant gives all the cleric buffs to Wizard, Dread Necromancer, Warmage, or Beguiler as early as level 11. That requires a couple more feats (for early entry), but is less arguable about advancement.

SavageBard5/Urpriest2/MysticTheurge2/WarWeaver5/MysticTheurge+6 has no early entry, divine ninths, arcane 6ths.

Wizard3/WarWeaver2/Mindbender1/Urpriest2/WarWeaver+3/MysticTheurge8/X1 gets Divine Nines, Arcane Nines, but is pretty cheesy.

[DoctorGlock]

This strikes me as an appropriate place to ask for advice on a build I've been wondering about for a while - how to best get into War Weaver with divine casting? It requires and advances only arcane casting, but the tapestry can be used with divine spells if you have them, so clearly a theurge is the way to go, as all the best buffs are divine. The required five levels sunk into not advancing divine casting is painful though. Thoughts?

I don't particularly care about getting arcane 9s, I want it to have the best divine casting possible. The arcane is only there to satisfy the requirements.

Southern Magician?

[Leon]

I'm not overly worried about casting 4ths when the wizards have 7ths and i doubt the rest of the group would be bothered particularly since i'll mostly be support and i have a proven record of being a very good support player

[Akal Saris]

Well without further cheese you can only weave level 5 spells max, so divine doesn't have to be fully advanced either.

Something like Wiz 5/Mindbender 1/Ur-Priest 2/Mystic Theurge 7/War Weaver 5 would get 9th level Wiz and Cleric spells and full war weaver progression.

You could either start Wiz 5/Mindbender 1/War Weaver 5 and go theurge very late in the build, or you could theurge at 7th level and pick up war weaver tricks very late. Probably somewhere in between would be best.

An alternative build:
Savage Bard 5/Ur-Priest 2/Mystic Theurge 3/Sublime Chord 1/War Weaver 5/Mystic Theurge +4.
Very skills-starved, but should hit L9s in both Wiz and cleric.

[Grim Reader]

Even something as simple as Precocious Apprentice gets your sorc/shugen into MT at ECL 7 rather than ECL 9.

Precocious Apprentice does not work due to:

a) WoTC ruling

b) Wording of the feat itself. (Turns into an extra spellslot when you're capable of casting second-level spells. That triggers when you get second level spells in your other class.)

However, if you want early entry the heighten/versatile combo has been specifically ruled to work.

[Little Brother]

After a request to work on this some more, and several years meditating in my personal temporally accelerated demiplane, I have concluded that this guide was in need of some minor updating, which has been done.

So, anything I missed?

[Arcanist]

After a request to work on this some more, and several years meditating in my personal temporally accelerated demiplane, I have concluded that this guide was in need of some minor updating, which has been done.

So, anything I missed?

Divine Casters

Base Classes
Cleric: Higher level spells at odd levels, effectively just as good as Wizard
Favored Soul: The Sorcerer for Divine casters... ugh total skip...
Archivist: DING DING DING! We have a winner! pretty much Wizard for Divine casters
Druid: Good for Arcane Heirophant and a personal favorite due to wild shaping
Fast progression classes
Ur-Priest: Place this class on its alter that it rightfully deserves to sit upon

Add to it as you please :smalltongue:

True Necromancer Theurge
Wizard/1 Cleric/3 MT/10 TN/6

Arcane:16 (8th level spells)
Divine: 17 (9th level spells)

Prerequisites:
Rebuke Undead
Death Domain
Any non-good
Knowledge Arcane/Religion 6 @ 4th level then 8 at 14th level
Spell Focus (Necromancy) @ 15th level

Easy to fulfill but damn near annoying to find a god/demon lord/archdevil that doesn't suck whom gives the Death Domain... Most would just craft there own domain but me? Nah i'm a classic man... :smalltongue:

I recommend Divine Defiance (Sacrifice turnings/rebukes to counter spells as an immediate action? Oh god yes! :smallamused:

[Little Brother]

Divine Casters

Base Classes
Cleric: Higher level spells at odd levels, effectively just as good as Wizard
Favored Soul: The Sorcerer for Divine casters... ugh total skip...
Archivist: DING DING DING! We have a winner! pretty much Wizard for Divine casters
Druid: Good for Arcane Heirophant and a personal favorite due to wild shaping
Fast progression classes
Ur-Priest: Place this class on its alter that it rightfully deserves to sit upon

Add to it as you please :smalltongue:Okay, sure. Looks better than what I had set up. Thanks.

EDIT: DERP! I had the divine section in the word doc backup on my computer. I had thought I put it up :P

[Arcanist]

Okay, sure. Looks better than what I had set up. Thanks.

EDIT: DERP! I had the divine section in the word doc backup on my computer. I had thought I put it up :P

UPLOAD IT THEN >:U

[Little Brother]

UPLOAD IT THEN >:UYours looked better, so I stole that one.

One thing on your TN: I'd have focused more on the Wizard. I mean, you can use an Illumian and Heighten, to be Cleric 1/Wizard 2/Mystic Theurge 10/TN 7, which gives you Wizard 17, Cleric 16. You only miss out on True Res(And Storm of Vengeance,which sucks, but I really like it. It's really cool).

[Arcanist]

Yours looked better, so I stole that one.

One thing on your TN: I'd have focused more on the Wizard. I mean, you can use an Illumian and Heighten, to be Cleric 1/Wizard 2/Mystic Theurge 10/TN 7, which gives you Wizard 17, Cleric 16. You only miss out on True Res(And Storm of Vengeance,which sucks, but I really like it. It's really cool).

I see :smallconfused: I usually base my characters on humans for well... laziness reasons :smallannoyed: but Illumian also works :smallamused: (actually works a little better when I think about it)

[Little Brother]

I see :smallconfused: I usually base my characters on humans for well... laziness reasons :smallannoyed: but Illumian also works :smallamused: (actually works a little better when I think about it)Illumians are humans. Humanoid(Human), anyways. Counts in my book.

[Arcanist]

Illumians are humans. Humanoid(Human), anyways. Counts in my book.

You have floating symbols over your head :smallannoyed: You are NOT human, you are NOT anything like a human... BAH! Excursion into Extinction time... Illumian edition :smallamused:

I recommend making a section breaking down feats that are good for Theurges (So basically a composite list of things good for Wizards and Clerics :smallamused:)

[Little Brother]

You have floating symbols over your head :smallannoyed: You are NOT human, you are NOT anything like a human... BAH! Excursion into Extinction time... Illumian edition :smallamused:You can suppress them.

I recommend making a section breaking down feats that are good for Theurges (So basically a composite list of things good for Wizards and Clerics :smallamused:)I will later. It's two AM, I'm going to sleep.

[Aeryr]

Hi, great handbook!

I really like theurging too. One thing that I believe is missing is a mention of the bamboo spirit folk in the races section of the OP, Geigan mentions them in post 28 though.

[Little Brother]

Hi, great handbook!

I really like theurging too. One thing that I believe is missing is a mention of the bamboo spirit folk in the races section of the OP, Geigan mentions them in post 28 though.Thank you.

I will look into them, I am AFB right now, but I don't think they actually get in. It specifies class feature, so unless they say "as the class feature," they don't get in.

[Kuulvheysoon]

[QUOTE=Arcanist;13345050]Divine Casters

Base Classes
Cleric: Higher level spells at odd levels, effectively just as good as Wizard
Favored Soul: The Sorcerer for Divine casters... ugh total skip...
Archivist: DING DING DING! We have a winner! pretty much Wizard for Divine casters
Druid: Good for Arcane Heirophant and a personal favorite due to wild shaping
Fast progression classes
Ur-Priest: Place this class on its alter that it rightfully deserves to sit upon

Add to it as you please :smalltongue:[QUOTE]

You forgot about Shugenjas (CD) and the awesome Spirit Shaman (CD) - a spontaneous caster who gets their new spell levels at odd levels.

[Little Brother]

Divine Casters

Base Classes
Cleric: Higher level spells at odd levels, effectively just as good as Wizard
Favored Soul: The Sorcerer for Divine casters... ugh total skip...
Archivist: DING DING DING! We have a winner! pretty much Wizard for Divine casters
Druid: Good for Arcane Heirophant and a personal favorite due to wild shaping
Fast progression classes
Ur-Priest: Place this class on its alter that it rightfully deserves to sit upon

Add to it as you please :smalltongue:

You forgot about Shugenjas (CD) and the awesome Spirit Shaman (CD) - a spontaneous caster who gets their new spell levels at odd levels.Honestly? No he didn't.

I mean, they're bad. Near as bad as the favored soul. Bad lists.

I'll go add them, though. Just for completeness.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Honestly? No he didn't.

I mean, they're bad. Near as bad as the favored soul. Bad lists.

I'll go add them, though. Just for completeness.

The Shugenja is nice on a Charisma SAD theurge (Sorc/Shugenja) for low-op builds. They're also the only Charisma SAD divine caster.

Spirit Shaman uses the DRUID list. It's one of the non-base classes (along with favored soul) that has a huge spell list. Even with only a handful of spells known per day, that's a potent list. Add that to all the ways to get extra spells known (Extra Spell, knowstones, etc...) and they can be pretty good.

Edit: Also, (Shadowcaster/Wizard/)Noctumancer/Mystic Theurge FTW.

[Arcanist]

The Shugenja is nice on a Charisma SAD theurge (Sorc/Shugenja) for low-op builds. They're also the only Charisma SAD divine caster.

True, but here is one remaining factor: Sorcerer progression SUCKS


Spirit Shaman uses the DRUID list. It's one of the non-base classes (along with favored soul) that has a huge spell list. Even with only a handful of spells known per day, that's a potent list. Add that to all the ways to get extra spells known (Extra Spell, knowstones, etc...) and they can be pretty good.

Spirit Shaman doesn't have the most important factor that makes Druid's awesome: Wild Shape and if knowstones are allowed you should be playing a sorcerdin, not a Theurge :smallannoyed:


(Shadowcaster/Wizard/)Noctumancer/Mystic Theurge FTW.

I'm working on a Theurge-Gish build :smallannoyed:

So far I've got Illumian shanigans with Legacy Champion shanigans, by the looks of things so far it has Dual 9's but I'm not sure that it works


Archivist/1 Wizard/2 Mystic Theurge/10 Legacy Champion/7

Divine: 17 (9th)
Arcane: 18 (9th)
BAB: +11

Thoughts? I've heard Legacy Champion works by raw but doesn't work by common sense... :smallconfused:

[Little Brother]

The Shugenja is nice on a Charisma SAD theurge (Sorc/Shugenja) for low-op builds. They're also the only Charisma SAD divine caster.Most divine casters, if urdoinitright, shouldn't really care about DCs.

Spirit Shaman uses the DRUID list. It's one of the non-base classes (along with favored soul) that has a huge spell list. Even with only a handful of spells known per day, that's a potent list. Add that to all the ways to get extra spells known (Extra Spell, knowstones, etc...) and they can be pretty good.Look at the Druid list. No compare it to the Sorcerer list. Now compare it to the Cleric list. It's really not a good list. I'd bet that, if it wasn't for wildshape, Druid's would be in low tier two. It's just not a good list, most of the decent things it has, Wizards have just as well.

Also, as Arcanist said, sorcerer progression SUCKS.

Edit: Also, (Shadowcaster/Wizard/)Noctumancer/Mystic Theurge FTW.Meh.

True, but here is one remaining factor: Sorcerer progression SUCKSSpontaneous casters lose out on most of the early entry tricks. They also have worse progression. They just make terrible theurges.

I'm working on a Theurge-Gish build :smallannoyed: Somewhat boring build, but I'm pretty sure it works. Don't have ToB on me. Warblade 1/Wizard 4/Ur-Priest 1/Mystic Theurge 9/JMP 5. Uses Alternative Source Spell at level 6 to get in early.

So you have some decent initiating, are a 10th level Ur-Priest, and a 17th-level Wizard

So far I've got Illumian shanigans with Legacy Champion shanigans, by the looks of things so far it has Dual 9's but I'm not sure that it works

Archivist/1 Wizard/2 Mystic Theurge/10 Legacy Champion/7

Divine: 17 (9th)
Arcane: 18 (9th)
BAB: +11

Thoughts? I've heard Legacy Champion works by raw but doesn't work by common sense... :smallconfused:Honestly, don't ask me about Legacy Champion. That class is bizarre, and I do not have that book.

[Essence_of_War]

Thoughts? I've heard Legacy Champion works by raw but doesn't work by common sense... :smallconfused:

You can check out some of the discussion on this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13092074#post13092074):

The proposed common sense ruling is:

Rule 003: Bonus Legacy Class Levels (currently disapproved 69% of 32)
Limit to Class Features: "No class (base or prestige) can have its class features progressed beyond the maximum printed level of the class itself, with the exception of the rules for epic progression that provides design rules for progressing base and prestige classes beyond their respecitve 20 and 10 level limits into character levels beyond 20th."
For: 22(Andorax, Doug Lampert, JoeYounger, Ashtagon, docnessuno, Dandria, Namfuak, SheepInDisguise, zagan, Lonely Tylenol, lesser minion, Godskook, nyjastul69, Lactantius, Gwendol, Zeful, Carr0t, DeAnno, Istari, EchoKnight, Essence of War, Asheram)
Against: 10(GoodbyeSoberDay, JadePhoenix, Siosilvar, erikun, pigkappa, Jeff the Green, moritheil, Msebazco, Tyndmyr, Mnemnosyne)

The discussion surrounding the legacy champion is somewhat heated. Although most people seem to think that it isn't overly powerful to let it advance the Hellfire Warlock's progression, support generally begins to fade when it is used to advance some other PrCs.

But regardless of whether or not they think it's overly powerful, or appropriately powerful, the basic positions appear to be:
1) LC says it advances all class features. This includes class features of 10 level (or less!) prestige classes. If we can reasonably extrapolate what the progression would look like, it should be fair game, and this is almost always the case for 10-level prcs (like the theurge classes), decided case-by-case for shorter prcs.
2) LC says it advances all class features. But indiscriminately advancing class features beyond their printed levels flies in the face of the epic progression rules detailed in the EpLH and the CW. With the exception of these epic progressions that are intended to progress base classes and 10-level prcs into character levels of 20+, progressions beyond the printed level are not well defined and don't exist.

Of the people who cared to get involved in this discussion in the above thread, about 65-70% of them think that position 2) should be a common sense ruling, while about 30-35% disagree, and fall more in line with position 1). Do with that what you will.

[Arcanist]

You can check out some of the discussion on this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13092074#post13092074):

The proposed common sense ruling is:


The discussion surrounding the legacy champion is somewhat heated. Although most people seem to think that it isn't overly powerful to let it advance the Hellfire Warlock's progression, support generally begins to fade when it is used to advance some other PrCs.

But regardless of whether or not they think it's overly powerful, or appropriately powerful, the basic positions appear to be:
1) LC says it advances all class features. This includes class features of 10 level (or less!) prestige classes. If we can reasonably extrapolate what the progression would look like, it should be fair game, and this is almost always the case for 10-level prcs (like the theurge classes), decided case-by-case for shorter prcs.
2) LC says it advances all class features. But indiscriminately advancing class features beyond their printed levels flies in the face of the epic progression rules detailed in the EpLH and the CW. With the exception of these epic progressions that are intended to progress base classes and 10-level prcs into character levels of 20+, progressions beyond the printed level are not well defined and don't exist.

Of the people who cared to get involved in this discussion in the above thread, about 65-70% of them think that position 2) should be a common sense ruling, while about 30-35% disagree, and fall more in line with position 1). Do with that what you will.

I see... So would it make more sense for it to be

Archivist/1 Wizard/2 Mystic Theurge/7 Legacy Champion/7 Mystic Theurge +3

:smallconfused: I mean I want to say that By RAW it works but I'd feel like a hypocrite :smalltongue:

[Essence_of_War]

So if you're trying to avoid legacy champion issues, I don't think you've avoided them.

It looks like you're using 2 levels of MT (MT 2), advancing MT progression by 6 levels w/ LegChamp 7 (MT 8), then trying to take another 7 levels of MT to get, presumably, 15 levels of double advancement.

If you and your DM hold to something like what I said in position 2, MT doesn't exist beyond 10 at pre-epic levels, so it doesn't make sense to take the last 5 levels of MT.

[Aeryr]

I see... So would it make more sense for it to be

Archivist/1 Wizard/2 Mystic Theurge/7 Legacy Champion/7 Mystic Theurge +3

:smallconfused: I mean I want to say that By RAW it works but I'd feel like a hypocrite :smalltongue:

You can try a Bamboo Spirit folk

Archivist/1 Wizard/2 Mysthic theurge/7 Arcane Hierophant/10

[Arcanist]

You can try a Bamboo Spirit folk

Archivist/1 Wizard/2 Mysthic theurge/7 Arcane Hierophant/10

Arcane Hierophant requires levels in Druid :smallfrown: and it doesn't have the int synergy that I'm looking for :smallfrown:

[Aeryr]

Why would arcane hierophant require levels in druid? :smallconfused:

Just talk your dm, most of them don't see problem with allowing pass without trace (from the bamboo spirit folk) qualify for arcane hierophant. You can meet all the other prerequisites, even if you want you can trade your familiar for an animal companion so you get a companion familiar later on.

[Morph Bark]

You still need an Animal Companion though.

EDIT: Ah, I see what you mean. Trade familiar for animal companion, then take the Obtain Familiar feat. Rather weak companion though.

[Aeryr]

Familiar is not a prerequisite for Arcane Hierophant, so you even if you loose your familiar when entering the class you don't gain anything from it so you might just want to trade it.

And the companion familiar would end being a 11th level animal companion 10th level familiar. Not accounting that he gets class features (channel via plants/animals). Or better BAB and better HD.

Arcane Hierophant >> Mystic Theurge

If Dragon Magazine are on the table Theurgic Bond can upgrade your companion familiar to a 20th level animal companion 20th level familiar. Or just plain old obtain familiar.

[Little Brother]

Why would arcane hierophant require levels in druid? :smallconfused: Bamboo Spiritfolk doesn't qualify.

[eggs]

Looks like the term "strictly inferior" has lost all meaning.

[Aeryr]

Bamboo Spiritfolk doesn't qualify.

Considering that I started my discussion with this:


Just talk your dm, most of them don't see problem with allowing pass without trace (from the bamboo spirit folk) qualify for arcane hierophant. You can meet all the other prerequisites, even if you want you can trade your familiar for an animal companion so you get a companion familiar later on.

What do you mean they don't qualify?

Arcane Hierophant requires pass without trace as a class feature, but bamboo spirit folk grant it as a race feature that works as the class feature. All the dm I met in the past have allowed it to work.

[Little Brother]

What do you mean they don't qualify?

Arcane Hierophant requires pass without trace as a class feature, but bamboo spirit folk grant it as a race feature that works as the class feature. All the dm I met in the past have allowed it to work.AH states Class Feature. Bamboo Spiritfolk has a racial ability. If your DM allows you to take it with that, awesome, and I wish you luck running that character, but it's still houseruling it. My guide functions purely on rules, and, as such, I will not add it in.

[Arcanist]

Looks like the term "strictly inferior" has lost all meaning.

In this thread? terms like that mean nothing :smallcool:

[Qwertystop]

AH states Class Feature. Bamboo Spiritfolk has a racial ability. If your DM allows you to take it with that, awesome, and I wish you luck running that character, but it's still houseruling it. My guide functions purely on rules, and, as such, I will not add it in.

I haven't seen the specific race in question, but if it does indeed say that it acts as the class feature in all ways, I would say that that would include for the purpose of qualifying for prereqs. That's not really a housrule so much as just reading it.

Of course, if that's not what it says, then never mind.

[Arcanist]

For reference, Apostle of Peace is really terrible, IMO.

Your opinion is wrong :smallamused:




Human
Sorcerer/8 Apostle of Peace/2 Mystic Theruge/10

Hume: Sacred Vow
1st: Vow of Poverty
Exalt: Nymph's Kiss
Exalt: Vow of Non-Violence
3rd: Extend Spell
Exalt: Vow of Peace
Exalt: Intuitive Attack
6th: Nonlethal substitution
Exalt: Nimbus of Light
9th: Persistent Spell
Exalt: Vow of Obedience
Exalt: Vow of Abstinence
12th: Divine Metamagic [Persistent Spell]
Exalt: Vow of Chastity
15th: Twin Spell
Exalt: Exalted Turning
Exalt: Holy Radiance
18th: Divine Metamagic [Twin Spell]
Exalt: Stigmata

Not much to work with and this can be easily done with Ur-Priest but it is a Theruge... It gets dual 9's and is DAD (CHA and WIS)

It has many restrictions... Honestly I'd rather do Wizard/8 Ur-Priest/2 Mystic Theurge/10 :smallamused: same results, less restriction and Gish potential :smallamused:

[moritheil]

Wizard: Higher level spells at odd levels, can safely specialize for more spell slots. This is all good.
Sorcerer: Slow progression, fewer spells known, no saving graces, really.
Bard: Qualifies you for Sublime Chord and Fochlucan Lyrist, but in and of itself? Hell no.


I'm kind of confused about this. Don't you want to mention that both Sorcerer and Bard can reduce your MAD? Dynamic Priest makes Divine spells use Charisma for DCs but not for bonus spells; as a MT, you're not exactly hurting for spell slots, so losing a few is fine as long as you get to actually be effective with the ones you get.

Of course, the levels still hurt, so I wouldn't want to try this as a primary party caster short of epic or a game where the DM has ruled that Precocious Apprentice or Southern Magician hijinks are acceptable as qualification for MT.

Also, I don't know if you've mentioned it already, but I didn't see the alternate interpretation of the Sylph. If you're not trying for dual 9s and just want a sorcerer with some divine casting, you can use the interpretation that a Sylph gains sorcerer casting even when you take cleric levels with it. Most DMs may not allow it, but it is a technically legal RAW interpretation.


The Shugenja is nice on a Charisma SAD theurge (Sorc/Shugenja) for low-op builds. They're also the only Charisma SAD divine caster.

Uh, anywhere DL feats are allowed the cleric can be made to key off Cha.


Southern Magician?

I think yes. Usually southern magician is used to make Arcanes qualify as divine casting; what the cleric-into-warweaver wants is Divine qualifying as arcane, but I think the feat lets you switch either way.


Precocious Apprentice does not work due to:

a) WoTC ruling

Please note that WOTC rulings are not automatically accepted by everyone. They have been known to contradict RAW, and even each other.

I would hesitate to use them as a source of definitive answers in a guide, though certainly you can reference them.


You can check out some of the discussion on this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13092074#post13092074):

The discussion surrounding the legacy champion is somewhat heated . . . basic positions appear to be:
1) LC says it advances all class features. This includes class features of 10 level (or less!) prestige classes. If we can reasonably extrapolate what the progression would look like, it should be fair game, and this is almost always the case for 10-level prcs (like the theurge classes), decided case-by-case for shorter prcs.
2) LC says it advances all class features. But indiscriminately advancing class features beyond their printed levels flies in the face of the epic progression rules detailed in the EpLH and the CW. With the exception of these epic progressions that are intended to progress base classes and 10-level prcs into character levels of 20+, progressions beyond the printed level are not well defined and don't exist.

Of the people who cared to get involved in this discussion in the above thread, about 65-70% of them think that position 2) should be a common sense ruling, while about 30-35% disagree, and fall more in line with position 1). Do with that what you will.

As someone who voted, I have to say you didn't represent my position precisely in Option 1. My thinking is not "if we can reasonably extrapolate." It is "if and only if the text says what a feature does is based on class level."

As an example, if the text for the class reads, "At each level other than 1" or "At each even-numbered level," then that feature will be advanced by the addition of further levels. If the text reads, "At levels 2, 3, and 5" then that feature will not be advanced.

Otherwise you're not letting the legacy champion do what the rules say it does. I have no problem with the banning of PrCs in individual games, but if the question is, "What does the legacy champion do?" then IMO the common sense answer is "extend classes which advance class features by level, and only those classes."

[Little Brother]

Minor update. Evangelist Cleric and Therugic Specialist were put in the OP.

[Arcanist]

I've always loved the Ultimate Magus class and I like using the class in conjuncture with Sorcerer instead of those specialized classes... Ah well... :smallfrown: this build for obvious reasons works better with Humans :smallsmile:





Sor/1 UA Conjurer/1 MS/2 UM/3 Geometer/2 UM +7 Archmage/4

Human: Spell focus (Conjuration)
1st: Precocious Apprentice
3rd: Extend Spell
6th: Practiced Spellcaster (Sor)
9th: Versatile Spellcaster
11th: Quicken Spell
12th: Spell Focus (Transmutation)
15th: Any Metamagic feat (I recommend Maximize Spell)
16th: Persistent Spell
18th: Practical Metamagic (Persistent Spell)

I would have loved to give this build Spellfire Wielder to show how arcane gifted the player with this class is supposed to be... Ah well... :smallfrown: fashionability Vs Functionality... ah well...

EDIT:

Druidic Theurgy is effectively the same thing as Theurgic Specialist except for... well Druid :smalltongue:

[Larkas]

Dynamic Priest makes Divine spells use Charisma for DCs but not for bonus spells; as a MT, you're not exactly hurting for spell slots, so losing a few is fine as long as you get to actually be effective with the ones you get.

You got that backwards. Dynamic Priest uses Charisma for the purpose of determining spells per day and maximum spell level, but doesn't change the ability for spell save DCs. Were it the other way around, it would almost be a feat tax for Favored Souls :smalltongue:

[Sewercop]

Arcane Hierophant, if my mind serves me correct they use a ranger as a exsample in the book. And i have never seen the original quote for this:

I asked Skip Williams whether the original intention was to have woodland stride as the class feature requirement for the arcane hierophant instead of trackless step, so rangers can qualify as the descriptive text strongly suggest, and he said:

"Woodland Stride is certainly what I *meant* to write, Not sure how Tarckless Step got in there instead."

[Little Brother]

Arcane Hierophant, if my mind serves me correct they use a ranger as a exsample in the book. And i have never seen the original quote for this:

I asked Skip Williams whether the original intention was to have woodland stride as the class feature requirement for the arcane hierophant instead of trackless step, so rangers can qualify as the descriptive text strongly suggest, and he said:

"Woodland Stride is certainly what I *meant* to write, Not sure how Tarckless Step got in there instead."And this has do do with anything, how?

[Larkas]

And this has do do with anything, how?

Don't know, but it's certainly an interesting piece of information.

[Sewercop]

And this has do do with anything, how?

found it relevant since you guys were discussing it earlier in the thread.. then again this was a a theurge book.. was i wrong?

its not raw,, but its rai. Most gms tend to like that. I dont, but im not most.

[Arcanist]

And this has do do with anything, how?

It means that Rangers could access Arcane Heirophant (by RAI) however I'm not so willing to believe that until I find a source :smallconfused:

[Larkas]

It means that Rangers could access Arcane Heirophant (by RAI) however I'm not so willing to believe that until I find a source :smallconfused:

Interestingly, I've read that somewhere else before, and not so long ago. I'll try digging it up.

EDIT: Here it is: Link (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/22093625/Arcane_Hierophant_-_Missing_Errata). It makes a lot of sense in that discussion, but it's still "I asked that guy and this is what he said". Read the thread linked, if it pleases you, anyways. It is a nice reading.

[enderlord99]

Domain Wizard If you are a generalist, you are taking this. Period.

What if my dm, like most reasonable dms, won't let me take it? Do I tell you so you can enact one of the death threats you have frequently made in this thread? Do I kill him myself? Do I quit the group because I'm not allowed to add additional free stuff to the already incredibly powerful "somewhat useful" class that is Wizard?

[Arcanist]

What if my dm, like most reasonable dms, won't let me take it? Do I tell you so you can enact one of the death threats you have frequently made in this thread? Do I kill him myself? Do I quit the group because I'm not allowed to add additional free stuff to the already incredibly powerful "somewhat useful" class that is Wizard?

Handbooks run on TO meaning that there are no limits on your build at all (No DM to just say No). This handbook runs on the assumption you basically just trying to build a Theurge for the sake of building a Theurge (Most likely for an Arena type thing or something like that)

[enderlord99]

Handbooks run on TO meaning that there are no limits on your build at all (No DM to just say No). This handbook runs on the assumption you basically just trying to build a Theurge for the sake of building a Theurge (Most likely for an Arena type thing or something like that)

You still shouldn't say stuff like "Do this. Period."


Should you?:smallconfused:

Also, there are always limits, even in thought experiments. The only exception is Pun-pun, and Pun-pun is not normally the sort of thing handbooks tell you that you should use, let alone that you "must" use.

[Arcanist]

You still shouldn't say stuff like "Do this. Period." Should you?:smallconfused:

If you are allowed to take Domain Wizard then you WILL take it. Otherwise just ignore it... :smalltongue:

[enderlord99]

If you are allowed to take Domain Wizard then you WILL take it. Otherwise just ignore it... :smalltongue:


If you are allowed to play Pun-pun, then you WILL play him. Otherwise just ignore him.

The 2 quotes are equally meaningful.

[Arcanist]

The 2 quotes are equally meaningful.

More or less yeah :smallconfused: I'm a little curious where you got that quote (So I can see the context)

If your DM is allowing you to just make Pun-Pun (ignoring the written rule not to) then go right the hell ahead :smalltongue:

[Kuulvheysoon]

Uh, anywhere DL feats are allowed the cleric can be made to key off Cha.

Emphasis mine. I've seen more than one DM disallow feats from different Campaign Settings (for someone playing in FR, say), or just straight up say no to the DLCS.

I was trying to help LB for completeness's sake. Also, Dynamic Priest doesn't change the stat for Save DCs, so that's one (tiny) difference.

[Little Brother]

More or less yeah :smallconfused: I'm a little curious where you got that quote (So I can see the context)

If your DM is allowing you to just make Pun-Pun (ignoring the written rule not to) then go right the hell ahead :smalltongue:I didn't. He likes to follow me around on the forums and harass. Also via PM. Just ignore him.

[Arcanist]

I didn't. He likes to follow me around on the forums and harass. Also via PM. Just ignore him.

What did I do? :smallfrown: or were you talking about the other guy...?

[Little Brother]

The other guy. Pokemon something.

[enderlord99]

More or less yeah :smallconfused: I'm a little curious where you got that quote (So I can see the context)

I made it. Notice how similar they are? My point is, if handbooks assume everything is allowed they don't work. If they assume only some things are allowed, then they really shouldn't demand domain wizard.



I didn't. He likes to follow me around on the forums and harass. Also via PM. Just ignore him.

I don't harass people, including you. Things just come out sounding really rude accidentally. And I'm fine with people ignoring me, but I'd prefer if they instead say what exactly I did wrong so that I can stop.

[Arcanist]

I made it. Notice how similar they are? My point is, if handbooks assume everything is allowed they don't work. If they assume only some things are allowed, then they really shouldn't demand domain wizard.

Yes, but if you assume that nothing is allowed and that the entire game is sticking to core and core alone then handbooks really fall apart and classes like Archivist and Artificer wouldn't have handbooks :smallsmile:

You can't make a Druid handbook without assuming that you are allowed to take Natural spell. Most, if not everything in this handbook is a recommendation regardless of how the writer dictates the option (I view Ur-Priest as a must have if its allowed but if its not? then just ignore my opinion).

Hell If i want to play a super Theurge I would go Dragonwroght Venerable Kobold for the ability increase (Highest increase with lowest level adjustment) StP Erudite/9 Ur-Priest/2 Mystic Theurge/9 and then just call it a day and now I can cast 9th level Arcane, Divine, and Psionics :smallsmile:

[enderlord99]

Yes, but if you assume that nothing is allowed and that the entire game is sticking to core and core alone then handbooks really fall apart and classes like Archivist and Artificer wouldn't have handbooks :smallsmile:

You can't make a Druid handbook without assuming that you are allowed to take Natural spell. Most, if not everything in this handbook is a recommendation regardless of how the writer dictates the option (I view Ur-Priest as a must have if its allowed but if its not? then just ignore my opinion).

Hell If i want to play a super Theurge I would go Dragonwroght Venerable Kobold for the ability increase (Highest increase with lowest level adjustment) StP Erudite/9 Ur-Priest/2 Mystic Theurge/9 and then just call it a day and now I can cast 9th level Arcane, Divine, and Psionics :smallsmile:

I didn't say "assume core only." I said "assume only stuff that on the surface at least seems vaguely balanced." Domain wizard is basically an alternate class feature for which you don't lose any existing class features, on an already powerful class. Just a glance tells you it's unbalanced, and if you look more closely, it's even more unbalanced.

[Little Brother]

Hell If i want to play a super Theurge I would go Dragonwroght Venerable Kobold for the ability increase (Highest increase with lowest level adjustment) StP Erudite/9 Ur-Priest/2 Mystic Theurge/9 and then just call it a day and now I can cast 9th level Arcane, Divine, and Psionics :smallsmile:Doesn't actually. work. You want arcane 9s, so you need to take Favored Discipline(Shapechange)(Or magic, but by very strict RAW it doesn't work), and it doesn't qualify for Mystic Theurge, as you don't actually *cast* spells. A dip in Ardent with the Magic Mantle would solve this, but since Erudites only have two feats to give up at level 1, so you can't also take the mantle), and you'd be just as well off using Psychic Theurge.

If you REALLY wanted Mystic Theurge, you'd probably be better off going Ardent 1/StP Erudite 5/Cerebremancer 4/Ur-Priest 2/Mystic Theurge7/Whatever 1.

Remember, Arcane spells are all Discipline powers, and not explicitly in the same discipline. Shapechange is the one you need.

[Arcanist]

Doesn't actually. work. You want arcane 9s, so you need to take Favored Discipline(Shapechange)(Or magic, but by very strict RAW it doesn't work), and it doesn't qualify for Mystic Theurge, as you don't actually *cast* spells. A dip in Ardent with the Magic Mantle would solve this, but since Erudites only have two feats to give up at level 1, so you can't also take the mantle), and you'd be just as well off using Psychic Theurge.

If you REALLY wanted Mystic Theurge, you'd probably be better off going Ardent 1/StP Erudite 5/Cerebremancer 4/Ur-Priest 2/Mystic Theurge7/Whatever 1.

Remember, Arcane spells are all Discipline powers, and not explicitly in the same discipline. Shapechange is the one you need.

I feel dumb, I meant Psychic Theurge xD

[sleyvas]

Still going through this thread, and I must say its a good compilation. I'd never paid much attention to the Sha'ir class from Dragon before, but now it proves very much of interest. At the same time, I'm also interested in the wu-jen. Naturally, I'm also interested in wizard. The sha'ir doesn't look like a spontaneous caster, so it wouldn't qualify with ultimate magus. Are there any tricks out there that anyone knows of for building two prepared arcane spellcasters as a theurge?

[Endarire]

Years after the initial posting, I realized certain things.

1: An Arcane Hierophant Handbook (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?471579-The-Arcane-Hierophant-Examined-Arcane-Hierophant-Handbook-(Pyromantic)) exists, and I apparently saved it from WotC years ago. (This is the Arcane Hierophant Examined thread mentioned earlier in this thread.)

2: An Illumian Druid2/Wizard1/Druid+4/Arcane Hierophant10/Mystic TheurgeX with Alternative Source Spell @3 and Natural Spell @6 can use the Uurkrau runeword with a high DEX form like Desmodu Hunting Bat (Monster Manual II 66) for lots of bonus spell slots on each casting class.

[Arkhios]

I know this is a guide/handbook, and guides generally are allowed to be revived after a period of time, but isn't 6 years still a bit too much?


That said, I'm curious why Cerebremancer isn't in there? While it's not arcane/divine PrC, it's still very much alike: dual progression between two magical classes.