PDA

View Full Version : Primitive Magic



Rorrik
2011-12-07, 11:36 AM
I want to set up a fantasy world that's pre-medieval, I'm thinking pre-Roman Galls or Celts or Saxons or Germanic Tribes. I think I have a pretty good idea of the real context of the age, but would appreciate suggestions along those lines as well. More than that, I'm thinking in this time period the story is pre-Bigby, pre-Leomund, and pre-Mordenkainen, as well as before the time of the unnamed but influential wizards who developed many of the spells in the Player's Guide. To this end, I'm looking for help determining what spells would be basic enough to have been researched in the early days of magical understanding.

jseah
2011-12-07, 11:56 AM
Well, what you want are spells that are conceptually simple (easy to think of) ...
eg. Create Stone instead of Wall of Stone.

...as well as "historical" adapted spells.
Bigby and Mordenkainen and all those giants didn't do their research in a vacuum, like anyone in the real world.
So the Grasping Hand series might just be one spell (possibly having some part of the spectral hand spell?). Eg. a single mid-level spell that creates a hand that punches people.
And if your players ever meet Bigby himself, he's fascinated with the applications of telekinetic force and projected limbs. No prizes for guessing what he's going to do with that hand spell.


Spells in general don't have so many exceptions, aren't so flexible and don't do "smart" things (eg. friendly fire)
Choose CL number of targets might turn into random CL number within X area. Spells in general have their levels changed (and effects scaled to match), generally, they aren't so practical.
Eg. Flame arrow is a level 4 spell that temporarily enchants 10xCL arrows. Fireball is level 5 and has a close range but 50ft AoE (really hard to avoid friendly fire) and blows people out of area (fort save knocks prone instead)


And then you throw in a bunch of spells that are incredibly focused. They do one thing and one thing only, preferably a subset of what the normal spell in the rules would do. The rules of magic are still being worked out and people haven't got a unified spell to do X.
Eg. Summon Monster line doesn't exist. Instead, there are a whole bunch of spells like Summon Dire Badger, Summon Fiendish Hawk. They might be one level lower, but they're nowhere as flexible because no one has worked out the general principles of summoning.

Rapidghoul
2011-12-07, 12:03 PM
You have to think of what you want the world to rely on. This far back, would they revere gods as explicitly as they do later in history? Maybe that means a large amount of the cleric list is untouched. Would they even have a concept of death, undeath, etc.? Out goes raise dead, animate dead, etc.

I would think that a lot the "earliest" spells would be buff spells. Think about it; people in a hunting and gathering society haven't developed enough to figure out the extents of magic but have some inkling of how to use it. What do they do? Use it to hunt and gather better. Haste to catch a beast. Enlarge Person to smash it. Bull's Strength to kill it. Expeditious Retreat to run away from it's mother.

Spells that make the endless hordes of barbarians better at being barbarians would likely come about first. Thus, transmutation has a strong place in this world.

Rorrik
2011-12-07, 12:43 PM
Bigby and Mordenkainen and all those giants didn't do their research in a vacuum, like anyone in the real world.
So the Grasping Hand series might just be one spell (possibly having some part of the spectral hand spell?). Eg. a single mid-level spell that creates a hand that punches people.
And if your players ever meet Bigby himself, he's fascinated with the applications of telekinetic force and projected limbs. No prizes for guessing what he's going to do with that hand spell.


One of the PCs is vying at being an up and coming wizard-genius, I could be interesting to have her develop some of the inspiration for the more advanced spells during the campaign.

I also like the idea of modifying spells to be less general or less advanced. And it does seem likely that buffs would be the first spells developed by a primitive society. I have a fairly well developed deistic system, but they don't bestow a lot of power on mortals. As far as the undead, one god is rumored by some religious traditions to awake them, though many religious traditions deny the existence of the the undead.

jackattack
2011-12-07, 03:09 PM
Don't forget transformation spells. Circe was fond of turning men into pigs, IIRC.

If you have generalized transformation spells, consider making them very specific (as above).

If you let your wizard have a spell that turns men into pigs, rather than "animals of generally the same weight", then your wizard can research/develop spells to turn men into other creatures. After a certain number of spells, allow the wizard to research a "unified transformation theory".

If you do break spells down this way, however, consider allowing more flexibility in your wizard's spell choices. Instead of memorizing specific single-animal spells, allow the wizard to use a spell slot for that "family" of spells so they can transform a man into something, not just one particular creature.

pendell
2011-12-07, 04:11 PM
Another thing to consider is that, in a primitive society, there may not be a hard-and-fast split between "arcane" and "clerical" magic. A primitive society may not see a distinction -- magic might be the monopoly of a priestly caste, as in Egypt. Anyone who is not a licensed member of the Priest's guild faces execution for practicing magic.

I disagree with Buff spells being the earliest primitive spells. I would suggest the earliest spells would be:

1) Divination. The shaman's job is to stand between the gods and men. Thus Prayer would be among the first spells, as would oracles , speak with dead, etc.

2) Healing. A fundamental job of any shaman is to perform healing rituals both for body and spirit. Exorcisms also. So look for cure disease, cure light wounds/cure critical wounds and that ilk.

3) Weather control. Hardly any society doesn't have some form of rain dance or rain magic.

4) For hunting, some variant of Call Familiar actually used to Call Prey.

5) Fertility. I'm not sure there's a specific spell in D&D for this, but it is a prime concern in primitive societies.

I suggest that early cultures would see magic more as 'holistic' rather than as being divided into particular schools with specific spells. Instead, "magic" would be more like fairy tale magic, in which the protagonist wishes and the wish comes true.

The fact that some wishes come true more often then others, the fact that certain material components are needed to make it happen, would be passed on as tribal knowledge or "hiddlins" from shaman to shaman. In a society that predates writing, the information will be passed on by rote memory, by song, and by play. Presumably these would be secret and known only to the shamans.

The division between "clerical" and "arcane" will have to wait for a "magical revolution" very like our own scientific revolution. In order for this to happen you need thinkers who are not religious and who have both the time and energy to demonstrate, by experiment, that arcane power exists and does not require divine assistance to achieve. They also need some sort of protector who values their skills sufficiently to save them from the local priesthood. Thus, it is unlikely such a revolution could occur until you had a civilization much like ancient Greece, where philosophers had the freedom to ask such questions without being forced to drink hemlock for heresy. Of course, it didn't always work even there.

For more examples, I would suggest reading The Golden Bough (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Golden_Bough) and studying what is known of early Shinto. Both of these sources will probably give you some good ideas as to how magic would be implemented in a stone age society.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Dr.Epic
2011-12-07, 06:11 PM
I'm thinking mostly spells connected with the elements. More advance spells would be beyond their grasp. The elements however we can all see and would develop techniques to control and manipulate them. Maybe also polymorph/wild-shape-like spells.

Rorrik
2011-12-07, 06:28 PM
Another thing to consider is that, in a primitive society, there may not be a hard-and-fast split between "arcane" and "clerical" magic. A primitive society may not see a distinction -- magic might be the monopoly of a priestly caste, as in Egypt. Anyone who is not a licensed member of the Priest's guild faces execution for practicing magic.

I suggest that early cultures would see magic more as 'holistic' rather than as being divided into particular schools with specific spells. Instead, "magic" would be more like fairy tale magic, in which the protagonist wishes and the wish comes true.

I am definitely on board with this. The characters are students at a school in the heart of a Romanesque republic, but most come from other places. The magical branch of the school includes lore and religious material. Other than ethics courses, this is where divine power belongs.

Jay R
2011-12-07, 06:50 PM
You're approaching it backwards. Ask the players what they think would be the first spells developed, and produce something out of their ideas, not ours.

Introduce a rule requiring them to justify their spells within the culture. Perhaps they each develop their own brand of "early magic".

(I'd give much more weight to the ideas that carry citations, in the form of mythological examples.)

navar100
2011-12-07, 06:52 PM
You may want to consider using Magic Incarnum as your magic. It can fit the theme, and you need not worry about too advanced spells at all. If you still prefer real spells, check out Word Magic in Pathfinder's Ultimate Magic. With that system you build spell effects. You create your own spells from basic abilities.

Rorrik
2011-12-07, 07:03 PM
Truth be told, I have a home brew magic system that is largely elemental. I've defined arm motions, hand shapes, and words that are used to create spells. The players are familiar with the system, but I want to get them to think about it from the player's point of view to decide what they will bring to the table.

This is mostly to help me find a guideline to evaluate the likelihood of certain spells cropping up, and because the NPC's are going to need magic too. I want them to be a sort of model of what magic is like in the world. IE what the professors teach at the school, what the BBEG uses and may have developed on his own, and so on. I also thought it might be a fun discussion as I've been curious about it for a while.

GolemsVoice
2011-12-07, 07:34 PM
Weren't curses also a really big thing back then? So there might be curses to weaken people, to make them infertile, damage their crops or livestocks and visit all other kinds of misfortune upon them.

Also, more spells could have a go-between. So, for example, instead of just using curse or something, first one has to know how to summon spirits or other supernatural beings, which then carry out the task (if everything goes well). This could be represented by another spell, summon spirit, or could be handled via ritual and the use of skill checks. Magic in general could be much more ritualistic, with elaborate rituals and the aid of elementals/spirits/etc. to make up for the lack of knowlegde and thus individial power.

Ravens_cry
2011-12-08, 10:58 AM
I imagine summoning and calling creatures to do your bidding would be a fairly big thing. Instead of learning a complex and elaborate effect, just get another creature to do it for you. Of course getting the creature to do so is another question.
Lots of raw elemental power sounds about right as well.

GolemsVoice
2011-12-08, 11:47 AM
Curse Tablets (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curse_tablet) were what I was thinking about. Basically, you write down a curse, and then ask the gods/spirits to carry it out for you, or you ask the spirit of a dead person to bring your claim before a god.

Rorrik
2011-12-08, 12:45 PM
A brief synopsis, correct me if I'm wrong, of what we've said so far.

While there are definitely certain spells a primitive society would like to have, there are also the things they are likely to come across first. I think elemental magic is a likely first(Dr. Epic), though certainly divination(Pendell) and curses(GolemsVoice) are also likely since the magic was probably first discovered by some interaction with the gods, perhaps as a gift. Definite circles of shaman would probably successfully pull off weather control to some extent before long(Pendell). Healing would also emerge quickly, once the elemental life energy was marginally understood(Pendell). Together with this life energy and the discovery or reception from the gods of the buffing syllables(RapidGhoul), it would be likely buff spells would become popular and maybe polymorph(Dr. Epic). Druidic control or charm animal spells could emerge among wilderness practitioners.(Raven's Cry) Certainly the first spells would lack control or any kind of intelligence, and as they became controlled would be controlled very specifically(jseah).

The question does remain of how society would develop graced with this magic. Would those versed in magic take control of fuedal nation states or would things be less likely to become organized? Would the connection between powerful magic and the gods lead to largely Theocratic governments growing up?

Ravens_cry
2011-12-08, 01:57 PM
Oh yes, I see God Kings of all sorts in an early magic world, the world not yet 'used' to magic so magic is more magical and mysterious, not quite the science it makes sense for it to be in more arcanely sophisticated societies.

Shyftir
2011-12-08, 02:14 PM
I believe answering such questions is excellent campaign fodder. Instead of answering them right away use the campaign to do so.

Edit: then report your findings...

TheThan
2011-12-08, 02:32 PM
Have you considered using non-standard magic? Try something from Tome of magic, like Truenaming or the pact magic classes or some such. It’ll make the magic feel more mystical and more exotic than normal. Plus it has the additional aspect of bringing magic more in line with non-magical classes’ power wise.

Sgt. Cookie
2011-12-08, 02:43 PM
How far back is the magic supposed to be? Long enough for it's existance to be common knowledge, but recently enough so that no one realy understands it? Or something else entirely.

Personaly, I'm thinking that pacts or early sorcerers would be more common in this pre-magic revolution era.

Ravens_cry
2011-12-08, 03:16 PM
I see magic as a force being eternal, like gravity is eternal. Various creatures evolving to use it like various creatures use electricity.
Magic as a technology is primitive and rife with superstition and ritual, much of which may not be necessary, but part of tradition.

GungHo
2011-12-08, 04:03 PM
I want to set up a fantasy world that's pre-medieval, I'm thinking pre-Roman Galls or Celts or Saxons or Germanic Tribes.
Well, you know, pre-Roman still gives you Ancient Greece, Ancient Egypt, Ancient Persia, and Ancient Mesopotamia. Do those sorts of civilizations still have sway/influence or are you really in the Land of Og?

While your tribesmen may have a shaman/druid hurling evocative/invocative nature magic like call lightning and thorns, in the more civilized east, you could have more developed magic like necromancy, conjuration, and enchantment and beings that seem more wizards, priests, and warlocks. They could even use the same sources with different results... where as the primitive west may look into beseeching spirits, the more learned east would be fettering spirits. Blood magic and pact magic may look completely different.

NikitaDarkstar
2011-12-08, 04:06 PM
I don't have time to read the entire thread right now, but I'd say you want things with "simple" (as in easy to imagine) effects and shapes. Fireball? Yhea It qualifies, Cone of Fire (I forget the name.. 2nd level sorc/wiz spell with a cone effect)? If dragons are around someone at some point must have gone "hey I want to do that!". I'd say plenty of the druid spells still qualify too, entangle isn't hard to think of if you've ever tripped over a vine in the woods for example.

But things that would logically be more complicated such as summoning spells or spells that effect a very specific area or can take on various shapes (explosive cascade I'm looking at you) would most likely be out. I'd even go as far as suggesting that Magic Missile is out. While the effect is simple, the spell it self doesn't seem to be.

Oh and here's just an idea if you're going to remove alot of the spells. Make the Archmage's Arcane Bolt (I think it's called, don't have the books on me atm.) ability available. It's just a bold of raw arcane energy (unlabeled magical dmg pretty much) cast at a target, I'd say you can't get arcane much rawer than that.

Rorrik
2011-12-08, 04:27 PM
Well, you know, pre-Roman still gives you Ancient Greece, Ancient Egypt, Ancient Persia, and Ancient Mesopotamia. Do those sorts of civilizations still have sway/influence or are you really in the Land of Og?

There may certainly be outside influences with a better idea of magic, but when I said pre-Roman Gall I meant Gall before the Romans got there, the time when Greece and Egypt were Rome and Gall was the new frontier. Its mostly to give a cultural background to the magical atmosphere. Maybe over the sea there could be a more magically advanced group that influences a little.

QuidEst
2011-12-08, 05:33 PM
This is going off of fantasy novel tropes a bit more, but old magic (especially if it's from a lost civilization) has a tendency to be larger scale. Not much fine tuning, but very powerful. To that end, I suggest putting an additional cost on some of the higher level spells- a mixture of a little XP and a little damage. Epic stuff might require large sacrifices.

Healing might require taking health from something- typically an animal. A rabbit will get you a little healing, predators more, and large animals for the big heals. The large the animal or the more you take, though, the less likely it is to succeed. That might be impractical for gameplay, but you can take this to whatever degree you want.

Showy magic- something like Dancing Lights would get developed pretty early on because it's a simple way to impress people and show power. The higher level of spells might mean extra energy getting poured into the spectacle part of things.

Necromancy probably doesn't work on stuff that's just dead- chances are you have to kill it yourself under specific conditions in order to turn it into a servant. This is fairly high-level stuff, but clerics won't be well equipped to deal with them, so they'll be more effective.

Summoning works, but you never ever get automatic service. Chances are good you get yourself killed unless you've got a darn good CHA score and/or a very persuasive offer. A summoner who doesn't mind dying is the equivalent of a nuclear bomb in the ancient world.

As for effects on society, I'd like to see the big-time mages taking over the role of fighter heroes (Achilles, for instance). They're sent out in single combat against the opposition's best mage, and while they don't wield political influence, they can get stuff they want because whatever king they serve want to keep them on his good side. You have an army because armies beat mages- but if you have an army and a mage while the opposition only has an army, what they have in reality is an army that's scared witless up against your army with support and great morale.

pendell
2011-12-09, 09:23 AM
Speaking of curse tablets, this was just mentioned on Past Horizons (http://www.pasthorizonspr.com/index.php/archives/12/2011/a-curse-on-you-plotius). It is a very well-preserved curse tablet and appears to be a death spell directed at one "Plotius" as retaliation for a similar curse being sent at the tablet's originator. Although the 'writer' was probably in fact a professional scribe or magician working on commission for the person paying for the tablet. For this service the tablet's author offers in payment "dates, figs, and a black pig."

It occurs to me that a magician in such a society could make their living either making such curses, as a sort of professional hit man, or a "ghostbuster" whose job is to undo them and either make them come to nothing or send them back on the originator.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Madara
2011-12-09, 04:06 PM
Despite not always working so well for certain circumstances, I would suggest them specializing in a Theme(not a school). So while they can use many spells, they re-fluff. So an Earth Wizard would still cast Enlarge Person, it would just have different fluff. While the players can research new spells, you can have them re-fluff the spell for their character. This allows for the creative process, but means you won't have to worry about balance for 50-some new spells that your players want to create.

Ravens_cry
2011-12-09, 04:26 PM
Oh, but spell research is so much fun. 50 spells is over doing it, so some refluffing will be required, but at least a few new spells should be allowed to be created.

Madara
2011-12-09, 04:46 PM
Of course, I was thinking your whole party were casters and they'd all be trying to create spells.:smallredface:

Ravens_cry
2011-12-10, 12:11 AM
Oddly enough, in the one explicitly low magic campaign I was part of (exactly zero healing magic), where even the slightest hint of magic could get you executed on sight, everyone played casters or at least gishes.

Rorrik
2011-12-10, 01:03 PM
Despite not always working so well for certain circumstances, I would suggest them specializing in a Theme(not a school). So while they can use many spells, they re-fluff. So an Earth Wizard would still cast Enlarge Person, it would just have different fluff. While the players can research new spells, you can have them re-fluff the spell for their character. This allows for the creative process, but means you won't have to worry about balance for 50-some new spells that your players want to create.

Of course, I was thinking your whole party were casters and they'd all be trying to create spells.

I think this is a good idea, while not all of the party members will be casters, the professor and baddie NPCs can have focuses that govern how they fight as well as what the caster character can learn from NPCs.

Shyftir
2011-12-13, 08:57 PM
Another possible idea is that you just not allow any of the spells that optimizers use.

Keep your lists short and blasty. Kick everything up a spell level. No metamagic. Increase casting times for anything not instant in duration. Disallow the wizard class, but transport its fluff onto the sorceror (change casting stat to Int).

Or you could just make all casters choose Adept.

Trufflehound
2011-12-14, 01:17 PM
I'd expect magic to be much more powerful and longlasting, but to likewise have long casting times and big material components. Stuff that would give you long-term buffs or special abilities, lasting hours or days, but requiring fairly major rituals. If roman and greek, celtic and aztec magic all tended to require dead/dying animals or such, it seems like the majority of primitive magic would involve that.

Rorrik
2011-12-14, 02:21 PM
I'd expect magic to be much more powerful and longlasting, but to likewise have long casting times and big material components. Stuff that would give you long-term buffs or special abilities, lasting hours or days, but requiring fairly major rituals. If roman and greek, celtic and aztec magic all tended to require dead/dying animals or such, it seems like the majority of primitive magic would involve that.

This seems like a reasonable approach to dumbing down the magic as well. I was also thinking about having a few "familiar" spells that can be prepared and cast normally, but then having spells that were less well known and needed to be researched, cast with a dice-roll level of success, and then researched further to most likely obtain better results, until the caster masters the spell. During the process an ingenious caster could make variations to the spell, perhaps. More complex spells would have no grounding at all and require extensive research and experimentation. I feel this would have the school feel I want, but many of the suggestions here give a good idea of which spells would be well known to the players.

TheThan
2011-12-14, 05:35 PM
In a lot of pulp fantasy (which pretty much fits in what you’re looking for). Magic is scary stuff. Sorcerers, clerics and other spell casters typically have to pay some sort of price. That price could be pretty much anything that would negatively affect a person. Other times wizards have to make pacts with otherworldly sources, elder evils, demons, ancient and forgotten gods etc.

So with this in mind I would take a look at pact magic ( tome of magic) as a basis for much of your magical needs. If you’re looking for something more shamanistic, there’s truenaming (also tome of magic), which could potentially fit the bill depending on what you’re aiming for with your shamanistic magic.

All and all I feel the scientific approach to the standard magic system does not fit the themes of a pre “magic revolution” setting. So Naturally I lean towards these others magic systems. I can imagine that over time, the standard magic approach comes about, and these old, scary and mysterious ways are cast by the wayside, except only by the people who live on the fringe of magical society (outcasts, necromancers etc). So I encourage you to take a look at these alternative systems and see if you are at least interested in using them for your setting.

Rorrik
2011-12-14, 06:50 PM
Given the story of the game, this could be potentially the beginning of the magical revolution, if not in the beginning of it. I'm not entirely sure how I want to handle it.

Storm Bringer
2011-12-17, 10:30 AM
if this is a 3.5 ed game, don't forget Sorcery.

in a world where magic is a little understood practice, then Sorcerers, with their basically innate powers, would be the most common form of Arcane caster (though they may not be recognised as such for centuires after the plot.). For the "barbarian" cultures, Sorcerers would be the only arcane casters available. charismatic, and powerful, they would be major players in tribal politics, though not automatically the chief.

also, remember "barbarian" does not inheritly mean "primitive", and certianly does not mean "dumb". the Celts of Gaul had metalworking and smithing skills as good as the romans had, and they invented Chainmail (or, at least, we can't find anyone else using it before them, and the romans took the idea form the celts. they also stole the design for thier short sword, the galdius, form the Iberian "barbarians" of Spain. the romans stole a lot of good ideas form other cultures. they made a fetish out of it, in fact). they lacked a written language, true, but they had practical techology as good as the romans or greeks in a lot of areas.

Rorrik
2011-12-17, 10:39 AM
if this is a 3.5 ed game, don't forget Sorcery.

in a world where magic is a little understood practice, then Sorcerers, with their basically innate powers, would be the most common form of Arcane caster (though they may not be recognised as such for centuires after the plot.). For the "barbarian" cultures, Sorcerers would be the only arcane casters available. charismatic, and powerful, they would be major players in tribal politics, though not automatically the chief.

also, remember "barbarian" does not inheritly mean "primitive", and certianly does not mean "dumb". the Celts of Gaul had metalworking and smithing skills as good as the romans had, and they invented Chainmail (or, at least, we can't find anyone else using it before them, and the romans took the idea form the celts. they also stole the design for thier short sword, the galdius, form the Iberian "barbarians" of Spain. the romans stole a lot of good ideas form other cultures. they made a fetish out of it, in fact). they lacked a written language, true, but they had practical techology as good as the romans or greeks in a lot of areas.

And that's certainly my intention, the world has fair technology and even writing and schools. The idea is to have magic me a little behind the times, and to not have highly developed civilizations like the fuedal age eventually brought on.

Storm Bringer
2011-12-17, 11:53 AM
very true, and another thing that has occured to me:

you don't need to understand something to exploit it. For example, people didn't really understand the wind for millenia, but they were able to sail around on wind powered ships, taking advantage of the free power the wind gave. medieval smiths used the colour of metal to judge its temprature while forging, not understanding the chemical changes they were causing in the metal, but able to exploit it to make better steel. tribal shamen knew that certian herbs helped recovery, without being able to identify what in the herbs did the trick.

thus a early mage may not know how his spells work. he only knows that you do wave your hands like this, say these words, and BOOM! the targets head falls off. he may not be able to modify them (say, by metamagic feats. alternaly, he may be unable to not use the metamagic version, as he can't seperate the metamagic form the spell), or may not realise that two spells that are the simmilar share the same school, for example.

YeomanSC
2011-12-17, 11:56 AM
I doesn't seem like anyone has said anything along these lines, so I thought I'd throw my two cents in.

When I think of primitive magic, I tend to think fairy tale like spells and enchantments. What sticks out to me about those is that the magic tends to be a lot more conditional, and be more difficult for the caster.
Rumpelstiltskin had to (depending on your version) give the woman a way out of his deal. In the cartoon Gargoyles, they could be turned to stone-till the castle they were in rose above the clouds. Basically magic users need to make the spell "easier" to cast by throwing in loopholes. This gives magic more of a curse feeling, which may not be what you want (and I'm not sure how you would make a loophole for a fireball) but might be worth a moments thought.

Also in this vein, it seems like blood magic, or some sort of magic that requires more from the caster makes sense. Eventually people would figure out how to avoid it, but for most, casting would be a difficult and strenuous experience.

Starshade
2011-12-17, 12:21 PM
Also remember megalithic structures, pyramids, standing stones like stonehenge, etc. Leylines, foci for power, summoning circles, or why not use the surfaces of temples/stones as spellbooks, having spells written in secret runes only the initiated can read. :smallsmile:

Rorrik
2011-12-18, 12:15 AM
very true, and another thing that has occured to me:

you don't need to understand something to exploit it. For example, people didn't really understand the wind for millenia, but they were able to sail around on wind powered ships, taking advantage of the free power the wind gave. medieval smiths used the colour of metal to judge its temprature while forging, not understanding the chemical changes they were causing in the metal, but able to exploit it to make better steel. tribal shamen knew that certian herbs helped recovery, without being able to identify what in the herbs did the trick.

thus a early mage may not know how his spells work. he only knows that you do wave your hands like this, say these words, and BOOM! the targets head falls off. he may not be able to modify them (say, by metamagic feats. alternaly, he may be unable to not use the metamagic version, as he can't seperate the metamagic form the spell), or may not realise that two spells that are the simmilar share the same school, for example.

This is a wonderful point. I think there will be a number of spells that are known by sheer coincidence but whose real workings are far from understood.

The ideas of loop holes is cool as well.

GolemsVoice
2011-12-18, 04:56 PM
Expanding on what Storm Bringer said, magic for wizards (meaning people who actually LEARN magic, instead of just knowing it) could be highly dogmatic, relying on tried methods that may very well differ between schools (if you allow the fact that different casting styles might still cast the same spell), or some schools might teach another version of a spell, with metamagic already implemented. So one wizard might cast according to the doctrine of Hereus, because he learned at the school in Parsus, while another might favour Xendons more powerful, but also more demanding style, while both don't really understand what they're doing, just how.

It's a bit like writing by copying words you know the meaning of, without actually knowing how to combine letters to form other words.