Round 4: Grapple Monk

[missmvicious]

Ok... so as some of you know I was trying to build a Monk for a game designed around us using PCs we would normally never use. It's a marshmallow campaign. It's actually going to be so light and fluffy, we could essentially just roll up some Commoners and start busting down doors.

Recap:
Anyway... rules are, core books (I was allowed to use Denying Stance variant anyway, since the DM stole my Dwalf idea, even after she said I couldn't make one), no home-brews, all RAW. Keep it simple. This is just a filler campaign.

Well, I tried building a grappler Monk and failed horribly because I'm terrible with build mechanics, and I got terrible rolls... 3 times in a row. Anyway, Pathguy (the website I use to build all my PCs) fixed the bug that lets me build a Denying Stance Monk, and I want to give it another whirl. I batted my eyelashes super hard and got one more re-roll. Success! Now, please. Help me build a grappler Monk. I don't know anything about Monks, let alone Monk variants, and they seem to be pretty high maintenance to build.

Here are my rolls:
18, 16, 14, 12, 11, 10.

We're Dwarves, if that helps, and I'm taking Denying Stance.

I'm thinking:
STR 16
DEX 12
CON 14
INT 11
WIS 18
CHA 10

The point is to build for grappling. I realize I need STR, but the Monk build really recommends WIS as my prime stat. Am I building this Monk right?

And also, what's the deal with the Feats? Prerequisites for Denying Stance say 9 ranks in Tumble and Combat Expertise on the D20 SRD website, but I think I'm misreading that, or else you could not possibly build an L1 Denying Stance Monk. Improved Grapple is given in the build, and I'm going to take Shaky and Murky-Eyed as Flaws to buff up on Feats, so I get 3 Feats to chose from. What are some good compliments to a grappler build?

[Flickerdart]

You're grappling, so Strength is your priority and Wisdom is secondary.

The prerequisites for Monk styles are only to get the 6th level bonus ability, and only need to be met by 6th level.

[missmvicious]

Thanks Flickerdart!

Mkay...

STR 18
DEX 12
CON 14 (maybe this should go to DEX or INT instead?)
INT 11
WIS 16
CHA 10

Now, what about Feats?
Improved Unarmed Strike and Improved Grapple are freebies for my build, right? So I don't need to select them.

[Flickerdart]

I would actually put the 14 in Wisdom and the 16 in Constitution. That way, after racial stat bonuses, you get a nice 18 Con, which makes up for your crummy hit die. Wisdom only gives you AC, so it's not super great for you anyway (since your AC will be down in the dumps during a grapple).

I would pick up Wild Talent at some point so that you can enter Psionic Fist (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/psionicFist.htm). Sadly, because you must be Lawful, you cannot enter Black Blood Cultist.

[missmvicious]

Let's see here...

STR 18
DEX 12
CON 16
INT 11
WIS 14
CHA 10

Flaws: Shaky and Murky-Eyed

That gives me 3 Feats, plus Improved Unarmed Strike and Improved Grapple.

If I'm going to have bleh AC, should I just buff up my HP with Feats then?
Endurance, Die Hard, Toughness?

Or maybe I should increase my opportunities of grappling?
Combat Reflexes, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip

Or maybe I should just go for broke on getting in the first hit?
Run, Improved Initiative, Alertness

Or maybe I should... I don't know. What do you think?

[marcielle]

When you said that you were dwarves, did you mean you HAD to be dwarves, or that you chose dwarf? If you went Human, you could take the Jotunbrud feat, making you count as one size bigger for checks when it benefits you. That's basically a flat +4 stackable with pretty much anything you can get at this stage.

Monks do not realy need Wis as much as Wizards would like you to think. In fact, unless you are going for a Tashalatora gish, it's a tertiary stat before even taking builds into account. But you can't make a Tash gish cos that's not even remotely core so nevermind that. Later down the line, you want a caster of some kind to get you enlarged. Pay for the wand yourself and ask the caster(or Rogue) nicely to use it on you.

Endurance, Die Hard, Toughness: No. Just NO. Stop right there, do not pass go, do not collect $200. You literally just listed the 3 worst feats in core.

If you can grab a Guisarme, Improved trip might be worth it. You don't need proficiency that much since tripping is a touch attack and many monsters will have wayyyyyy more that 4 armor.

[Flickerdart]

With your boosted Constitution, you'll have enough HP, especially if you have allies covering your back while you're grappling someone. You probably won't be taking very many hits from other targets.

Endurance and Toughness are useless feats and you should ignore them. Improved Initiative is always a good backup investment. You might find the Scorpion's Grasp feat from Sandstorm useful to you, as it lets you grapple someone that you've just punched in the face (so if your grapple is unsuccessful, they still get punched). Better yet, if you attacked them with a light weapon (such as many of the Monk's special weapons) you can deal weapon damage, grapple and then deal unarmed damage. Battle Jump (Unapproachable East) lets you jump on top of someone to make yourself count as larger for the purposes of a grappling check, which is great because it means you can start a grapple against something you normally could not.

[marcielle]

Note, you can drag your opponent through your entire party. AoOs all around!
p.s. What's a dwalf, anyway?

[Keld Denar]

Tash is the best way to do a grappler. Between Expansion and Grip of Iron, its not hard to boost your grapple check into the 30s by level 8 or so.

Also, look for Constrict. The best source is to take Martial Stance for Crushing Roots of the Mountain, a very dwarfy stance. Requires Martial Study as a prerequisite. The other way involves Soulmelds, specifically Kraken Mantle and the Arm Chakra. Again, 2 feats.

[missmvicious]

p.s. What's a dwalf, anyway?

It's the natural progression of Dwarves and Elves adventuring together... a Half-Dwarf, Half-Elf. I can't believe there aren't stats on those things. The DM had to home-brew it based on the Bastards and Bloodlines books. There are stats of a Half-Gnome Half Cloaker in there... but no Dwalf. What's up with that?

Anyway... back on track.

I like the idea of Battle Jump. I was kind of going for that anyway. I didn't realize you had to take a Feat for that. Our DM always just ruled if you could Charge, pass a Jump Check and then pass a Tumble Check to enter an enemies square without AoO, then you get to pounce your opponent. I just have the image of this wild, spitting, screaming monk scaring the bejeezus out of her opponents with a (staged) frenzy and pouncing her opponents before they have a chance to figure out if I've gone mad or not.

[missmvicious]

Tash is the best way to do a grappler. Between Expansion and Grip of Iron, its not hard to boost your grapple check into the 30s by level 8 or so.

Also, look for Constrict. The best source is to take Martial Stance for Crushing Roots of the Mountain, a very dwarfy stance. Requires Martial Study as a prerequisite. The other way involves Soulmelds, specifically Kraken Mantle and the Arm Chakra. Again, 2 feats.

What is this Tash of which you speak?

[Flickerdart]

What is this Tash of which you speak?
Tashalatora, from Secrets of Sarlona. Lets you stack Monk levels and levels of a psionic class for progressing a bunch of Monk abilities.

[JKTrickster]

You want the Scorpion Grasp feat {{link scrubbed}} for sure. Bat your eyes really hard for this one.

Otherwise you want to take 2 level of Monk then go into Psychic Warrior.

Or no levels of Monk and all into Psychic Warrior is even better. :smallbiggrin:

[Keld Denar]

Specifically, UAS damage, which is also your grapple damage. You continue to get UAS, AC, and Flurry bonuses without taking too many Monk levels.

Lots of psychic warrior powers are oriented toward budding yourself to better beat up your foes. It's using your mind to empower your body to kick ass. Tashalatora just stitches the two worlds together into a nice dainty package.

[Little Brother]

Tash is the best way to do a grappler. Between Expansion and Grip of Iron, its not hard to boost your grapple check into the 30s by level 8 or so.

Also, look for Constrict. The best source is to take Martial Stance for Crushing Roots of the Mountain, a very dwarfy stance. Requires Martial Study as a prerequisite. The other way involves Soulmelds, specifically Kraken Mantle and the Arm Chakra. Again, 2 feats.Totemists take issue with that. Seriously take issue.

Also, for a Dwarf, go Feral Chaos Monk/Fist of the Forest/Deepwarden.

Or some combination of Totemist/PsiWar(Or Erudite)

[Greenish]

Better yet, if you attacked them with a light weapon (such as many of the Monk's special weapons) you can deal weapon damage, grapple and then deal unarmed damage.Wouldn't that work with unarmed strike too? Hit, deal unarmed damage, start grapple, deal unarmed damage.


Totemists take issue with that. Seriously take issue.Totemists are good grapplers, but tash is still probably better.

[Flickerdart]

Wouldn't that work with unarmed strike too? Hit, deal unarmed damage, start grapple, deal unarmed damage.
The feat specifically makes an exception for this, for some reason.

[missmvicious]

:smalleek:

My head just exploded. I don't know what most of these terms are. Please simplify. I'm not good at build mechanics, and this is probably the one and only time I'm ever going to play a monk.

L1 Dwarf Monk... marshmallow campaign. DM told me I'll mostly be fighting mundane animals in the dead of winter. Lots of snow and mountains and stuff. She has already told me that I will have the opportunity to wrestle a bear. Based on the selection available in the Animals list and what's indigenous to cold mountains, a bear will probably be the strongest thing I fight. I wouldn't put it past her to have me fight a Badger. I just want a monk who isn't so badly built, she punches herself in the face when she tries to grapple.

I'm sorry guys. I'm starting to feel like an 8 year-old trying to discuss quantum mechanics with Michael Faraday.

[Greenish]

The feat specifically makes an exception for this, for some reason.I'm not seeing such language in the description. :smallconfused:

[Keld Denar]

Totemists take issue with that. Seriously take issue.

The issue with Totemist grapplers is twofold. First, grapple damage is based on UAS damage unless you have Constrict. Totemists don't advance UAS damage unless you drop 2 feats on IUAS and SUAS. Also, SUAS doesn't scale with size, so the most common method of increasing grapple checks doesn't synergize.

Second, natural attacks don't blend well with grapplers, since grapple actions are based solely on BAB, barring 8 levels of Blackblood Cultist. It doesn't matter if you have 4 claws, a bite, a gore, and 6 tentacles, you still only get (BAB-1)/5 rounded down grapple options. Also, attacking with natural weapons in a grapple is rather lackluster as well, due to the -4 penalty.

So while its pretty easy to get a scary +grapple mod, its more difficult for a Totemist to wield it than a similarly optimized Tash Monk. I've played around with builds for each, and even tried splicing them together. It's really tough to beat the pure power, synergy, and simplicity of a Tash Monk with regards to grappling.

[JKTrickster]

:smalleek:

My head just exploded. I don't know what most of these terms are. Please simplify. I'm not good at build mechanics, and this is probably the one and only time I'm ever going to play a monk.

L1 Dwarf Monk... marshmallow campaign. DM told me I'll mostly be fighting mundane animals in the dead of winter. Lots of snow and mountains and stuff. She has already told me that I will have the opportunity to wrestle a bear. Based on the selection available in the Animals list and what's indigenous to cold mountains, a bear will probably be the strongest thing I fight. I wouldn't put it past her to have me fight a Badger. I just want a monk who isn't so badly built, she punches herself in the face when she tries to grapple.

I'm sorry guys. I'm starting to feel like an 8 year-old trying to discuss quantum mechanics with Michael Faraday.

Okay okay guys we should tone it down. :smallbiggrin:

This is obviously meant to be a low power campaign. A monk might actually work here.

In that case don't really worry. You have most of the basics down. Just play hard, have fun, and your Monk should do fine really.

If you want to optimize, get some way to have Enlarge Person or Expansion on you. It'll help and be fun for you.

[Flickerdart]

I'm not seeing such language in the description. :smallconfused:
That would be because I am blind, and misread the "If you initiated the grapple while armed" bit.

[missmvicious]

Thanks, JKTrickster. :smallredface: That makes me feel a little better.

I pieced together a build based on what I understood of all of your suggestions, and think I have a grappler Monk that can do all the things I imagined in my head.

I appreciate the help everyone! Wish me luck!

[sonofzeal]

Thanks, JKTrickster. :smallredface: That makes me feel a little better.

I pieced together a build based on what I understood of all of your suggestions, and think I have a grappler Monk that can do all the things I imagined in my head.

I appreciate the help everyone! Wish me luck!
Good luck, and tell us how it works!

[WinceRind]

I wouldn't take Improved Grapple as a bonus feat at level 1...
Stunning Blow, while not that great, is not completely useless.
If they fail the save, you've got an easy time grappling... Especially with Scorpion Grasp feat.


There are also a few semi-useful grappling feats, I think in Complete Warrior or Complete Adventurer... One lets you do 1d12 extra damage each time you pin someone. That could be useful.

You could build a decent grappler as a fighter, too. You wouldn't have to worry about Dexterity at all, and just wear Heavy Armor - you're already slow as a dwarf, and you won't get any slower. And when you grapple you don't get any Dexterity to AC anyways...

Bonus feats would allow you to get Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple, Superior Unarmed Strike (for almost monk-level UAS damage) and that pin feat...

Of course, if we really get into it, a caster can be a much better grappler, but I assume that you aren't looking at that option.

And of course, as a fighter you can always just use Armor Spikes to do damage in grapple so you can enchant them to get through DR and such.

Of course, there are also other ways of getting full Base Attack Bonus characters with high unarmed damage, mostly with multiclassing.

Either way, once you get the Scorpion Grasp feat you'll just be able to initiate grappling by charging at someone and hitting them (shouldn't be too hard with your high Strength).

Uh oh, looks like I'm too late to the party. Good luck, OP.

Oh, my bad, I haven't noticed that you were using core only. In which way, there's not a whole lot to choose from, especially at level 1. A fighter or a monk doesn't truly make a difference.

[Gwendol]

You should try and get improved natural attack in there, as it gets your unarmed strike damage up one size category. It's in the SRD under monster feats, and monk UAS qualify as being both natural and martial.

Monks get ki-strike early enough to bypass DR, so that's not too much of a hassle.

If you're willing to take a level hit you could go for a Duergar monk, thus gaining enlarge person 1/day, or go cleric 1/monk x (with the strength domain) for the same thing. A size increase will help greatly with grappling, and if combined with improved natural attack will let you do even more damage.

[marcielle]

Don't forget, if you are willing to take up psionics, pretty much anything that will help a monk will help a Tash so it won't be a major change to your build but for the replacing of monk levels.