Zinc Saucier Optimisation Challenge 1

[motoko's ghost]

Welcome one and all to the first zinc saucier challenge, where playgrounders come to test their skill in the art of beautiful and bizarre (and bizarrely beautiful:smallwink:) builds.

The challenge? To come up with a build that has the same abilities and feel as the secret ingredient WITHOUT actually using it!

For this first challenge get ready break out your knives as its the Expanded psionics handbook's Soulknife.

Our challengers will have 2 weeks to build a complete build from lvs 1-20 using a 32 point buy and all official 3.5 material(excluding dragon magazine, but including any WOTC online enhancements) with the abilities and feel of a soulknife without actually using any levels in it.

Contestants will be judged and awarded a score out of 5 in each of 5 categories;

Innovation (Uniqueness in character concept, race, class, etc)
Power (How powerful and versatile it is compared to the base class)
Elegance (What can only be described as how well the build "flows", i.e not using lots of 1-2lv dips, sacrificing flavour for power or using flaws)
Fluff (How well the characters back-stories and classes mesh)
Ingredient (How well the build captures the abilities and feel of the base class)


Presentation would be best in the style of how the iron chef does their presentations.

Please do not post details of your build on the board before it is ready, so as not to spoil the surprise for others (and please dont use leadership, as we dont want to overfeed the judges:smalltongue:)


Also it comes with double prize money.:smallbiggrin:

[Flickerdart]

Are we allowed to submit more than one? I have two ideas rolling around in my head.

[motoko's ghost]

If anyone wants to help judge please either post it on the board or PM me, I could use some judges(as one is not enough)

EDIT: you can submit as many as you want

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Does it have to duplicate the fail of Soulknife? Because if not, I've got a couple of interesting ideas...

[motoko's ghost]

You can duplicate fail if you want, but you dont have too.
There already quite a few topics on building the worst characters ever:smalltongue:

[Zaq]

Oh, this is tempting. If I can find the time (HA), I just may join.

[Flickerdart]

I've worked out the ideas behind two builds, and there's a third that I want to explore to see how it fits together. Who knew there were so many ways to pimp out a mind sword in 3.5?

[motoko's ghost]

That's why I picked soulknife for the first one, Psychic Swords EVERYWHERE!

[TroubleBrewing]

This is an awesome idea. I'd love to judge.

[motoko's ghost]

Thanks, I needed some help judging

[The Gilded Duke]

So, we post here when our build is done? Or we post after two weeks? I have one idea that is shaping up nicely.

[Weezer]

I too would be willing to throw my hat in the ring for judging, at least for this first challenge, I wont have time in the next two weeks to make up a good submission, but after finals I'll be free to judge and it seems that the judging period will hit right after finals.

EDIT: Also, don't forget to put the date/time that the builds are due into the OP. That's rather important.

[motoko's ghost]

Monday the 24th should do it for submission, actually its probably best if you submit it onto the boards, just put it in a spoiler tag so others wont see it.
@weezer;thanks for judging

EDIT:actually post them on the boards after 2 weeks,sorry should have been clearer

[IdleMuse]

I'm really interested in this competition, it seems like a really interesting design niche that I'm not unfamiliar with (randomly happened to have designed a build last week sometime that duplicates a Druid pretty well, Wild Shape, animal companion, divine casting, summon nature's ally, trackless step, all without any druid levels).

Need some more thought on the Soulknife though, not a class I've ever really grokked.

[Dumbledore lives]

Traditionally I believe all builds are PMed to the chairman, in this case motoko's ghost, to avoid any sort of personal bias based off of knowing who made the build. Also I will try to submit a build.

[motoko's ghost]

Ah, okay, that makes sense, although I dont really know anyone on this site very well, so I dont think I'd be very biased.:smalltongue:

EDIT: If the builds are going to be PM'd to me anyway you can submit them at anytime, you dont have to wait until the end of the two week period, I'll just send them on to the other judges via PM.

[motoko's ghost]

Sorry to double post, I just wanted to check that the two people who volunteered to judge; Grey McBannert and Weezer got the PM with the first build.

[motoko's ghost]

Its the 25th and I've only got 1 submission so far, should I extend the deadline or just declare it closed?

I'm going by GMT BTW

[Wings of Peace]

Its the 25th and I've only got 1 submission so far, should I extend the deadline or just declare it closed?

I'm going by GMT BTW

I didn't even notice this thread till now xD

Edit: Though I'm curious to see if the contestant(s) optimized their Soul Knife equivalents the same way I do.

[motoko's ghost]

I didn't even notice this thread till now xD

Edit: Though I'm curious to see if the contestant(s) optimized their Soul Knife equivalents the same way I do.

Should I keep it open for another week or so then?

[Draz74]

Should I keep it open for another week or so then?

I vote yes. I just saw this thread for the first time now, and it's a really cool idea. I'm definitely not promising to enter the contest -- I would need to really be struck by inspiration to make time to do so. But I would like to, and I bet other people would too.

[motoko's ghost]

I vote yes. I just saw this thread for the first time now, and it's a really cool idea. I'm definitely not promising to enter the contest -- I would need to really be struck by inspiration to make time to do so. But I would like to, and I bet other people would too.

Would extending the submission time to midnight(GMT0) January 8th be a good idea then?

[Tvtyrant]

Would extending the submission time to midnight(GMT0) January 8th be a good idea then?

I just saw this as well. BTW, what format would you like for entrants?

[motoko's ghost]

I just saw this as well. BTW, what format would you like for entrants?

It might not have been too clear in my first post:smallredface:, but the presentation format is the same as the Iron chef competitions.

Thanks for the support everyone.

[BobVosh]

I love the sound of this competition. I'm game for judging. (I also only just saw this thread for the first time today)

[motoko's ghost]

I love the sound of this competition. I'm game for judging. (I also only just saw this thread for the first time today)

Why does that keep happening?:smallsigh:

However I am glad your judging, I'll PM you the first build Asap

[The Gilded Duke]

Any updates on this challenge? I had fun working on it.

[Weezer]

Any updates on this challenge? I had fun working on it.

I think it was extended to January 8th, due to increased interest and a lack of submitted builds (only 2 have come in so far)

[Gandariel]

And this is how i met your mother a random bump.

i don't intend to play or judge (too little time and experience), but i'd be curious to see the results...

[gkathellar]

I could stand to get in on this.

[Weezer]

Just a reminder to all, the deadline is in 2 days and not many people have submitted, so please, get your builds in! :smallbiggrin:

[The Gilded Duke]

How many have submitted so far? I'm really looking forward to the reveal.

[Weezer]

How many have submitted so far? I'm really looking forward to the reveal.

Motoko's Ghost has only forwarded two to me so far. Kind of a disappointing number, I'm hoping for more to show up in the next few days.

[BobVosh]

I thought it was suppose to be anonymous.
Either way I guess we know who is in the lead lol.

[Weezer]

I thought it was suppose to be anonymous.
Either way I guess we know who is in the lead lol.

How does that tell you who is in the lead? All I said were the number of submissions, I don't even know the names myself. Motoko's Ghost is the person running the Challenge, not a contestant.

[BobVosh]

Ya for some reason I totally spaced and thought you were the chairman.

[Weezer]

Ya for some reason I totally spaced and thought you were the chairman.

Nope, just trying to give the contest a kick in the pants. It's a cool idea and I don't want it to die an untimely death.

[motoko's ghost]

Nope, just trying to give the contest a kick in the pants. It's a cool idea and I don't want it to die an untimely death.

Thanks Weezer. But yeah I've only gotten two builds so far(not telling from who:smalltongue:), so I dont know whether its just no-one wants to associate with soulknife or...


EDIT:Okay Just got a third build from..........gotcha!:smalltongue:still not telling

[Draz74]

I finally got down to trying to write up my ideas last night ... and kind of got stuck. My build had some crucial flaws that I haven't figured out how to fix.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I finally got down to trying to write up my ideas last night ... and kind of got stuck. My build had some crucial flaws that I haven't figured out how to fix.

To be honest, anything associated with Soulknife is going to have some crucial flaws inherent in the build. The closer you get to reproducing it, the further you get from 'powerful'...

[The Gilded Duke]

I'm half tempted to submit a Jedi from the Saga system and call it a day. They have mind blades, they are melee combatants, and they even use psionics more then Soulknives ever did.

[motoko's ghost]

To be honest, anything associated with Soulknife is going to have some crucial flaws inherent in the build. The closer you get to reproducing it, the further you get from 'powerful'...

As I said earlier, you dont have to replicate the fail:smalltongue:

[motoko's ghost]

One moment, according to the board, my post right before this one does not actually exist, I can still see it though, can anyone else see it?
:confused:

EDIT: ah,Ok

[Weezer]

That's a common glitch in the forums, comes from having an overloaded server, sometimes the database gets a bit confused, resulting in 'invisible' posts. But they show up after a while, or after another post is submitted afterwards.

[kulosle]

so i took a long break from the playground due to computer failure. I just saw this post, sorry to add on to that list, and love the idea. If you want another judge i would love to. I would also like to participate in future challenges like this.

[motoko's ghost]

so i took a long break from the playground due to computer failure. I just saw this post, sorry to add on to that list, and love the idea. If you want another judge i would love to. I would also like to participate in future challenges like this.

Okay, I'll send you the three builds I've got so far.

Thanks for the support!:smallbiggrin:

EDIT: the judges are free to submit their scores whenever they feel like it, but hopefully before the 23rd:smalltongue:

[The Gilded Duke]

Are builds getting posted today then? I'm looking forward to seeing the competition.

[motoko's ghost]

Are builds getting posted today then? I'm looking forward to seeing the competition.

Yeah they should be posted in the next day or so(slight difficulty with internet access at the moment:smallfrown:)

[motoko's ghost]

Okay, pretty sure Its the 9th across most of the world, so here are the three builds that were submitted;

Arthur Demonblade
Demonwielding, Lying, Cleric of Truth


The Build

CN Elf Cleric of Oghma 5 / Malkonvoker 9 / Cleric 6

Feats:

1. Spell Focus Conjuration, 4 Elf Feats
3. Augment Summoning
6. Extend Spell
9. Persist Spell
12. Divine Metamagic Persist Spell
15. Travel Devotion
Chaos Shuffle elf feats for: Weapon Proficiency Greatsword, Power Attack, Improved Sunder, Extra Turning
18. Extra Turning


Cleric:

Cleric of Oghma
Domains Charm and Trickery
Turn Undead


Malconvoker:

Deceptive Summons
Unrestricted Conjuration
Planar Binding
Skill Focus Bluff
Deceptive Summons
Fiendish Legion
Deceitful Bargaining
Improved Calling
Safe Summoning


Skills:

Bluff 23, K. Planes 23, Spellcraft 23, Concentration 23


Stats:

Before Racial

Str 14
Dex 10
Con 12
Int 14
Wis 16
Cha 12

After Racial

Str 14
Dex 12
Con 10
Int 14
Wis 16
Cha 12

After Leveling

Str 14
Dex 12
Con 10
Int 14
Wis 21
Cha 12

After Enhancement

Str 20
Dex 18
Con 16
Int 20
Wis 27
Cha 18

After Inherent

Str 25
Dex 23
Con 21
Int 25
Wis 32
Cha 23

After Profane

Str 29
Dex 27
Con 25
Int 29
Wis 36
Cha 27



The Buildup

Arthur Demonblade can cast 9th level cleric spells. Two of the spells he can cast are Embrace and Shun the Dark Chaos. With these, he is able to switch his starting elf weapon proficiency feats to demonic feats, and then switch them from demonic feats to any feats of his choice.

Between his charisma and Extra Turning, Arthur has 25 rebuke attempts per day. This allows him to persist up to 6 spells per day. He can also use these attempts to power his Travel Devotion.

Arthur can bind up to 20 HD outsiders. He binds Efreeti and forces them to grant his wishes giving him the maximum inherent bonuses to all of his statistics.

He can also bind evil outsiders with the spell like ability to possess. He damages and penalizes their charisma enough that they will agree to any deal. He then allows them to possess him and further enhance his abilities, giving, with enough demons, a +4 vile bonus to every stat.



The Main Trick: The Demonblade

Arthur Demonblade finds and murders a Githyanki and steals his Silver Sword. If Arthur cannot find a Githyanki, he wishes for a Silver Sword from an Efreet.

The Silver Sword is made up of some sort of liquid metal, that damages psychic abilities, and can cut silver cords from Astral Projection. It counts as a greatsword. Arthur Demonblade gets the sword further enchanted with good useful general use enchantments.

Arthur then summons up a Possessing Pit Lord, casts assay spell resistance, and hits him with Dominate Monster until it sticks. He tells the Pit Lord to possess and enhance the abilities of the Silver Sword.

The Pit Lord can give up to 40,000 gp worth of enhancement to a possessed item. The Pit Lord can dismiss the current enhancements as a free action, and then apply new ones at will. The Silver Sword can shift between enchantments such as Metalline and Bane depending on what sort of opponents are being fought.

Arthur can also bind a Pit Lord into his armor, armor spikes, gauntlets and buckler. Weapon enchantments on Armor Spikes and Buckler can be ones that contribute to combat even when the weapon isn't used to attack, such as defending.

Arthur can then cast Greater Magic Weapon and Magic Vestment to make all of his gear have a +5 Enhancement bonus.

Arthur can have any additional bound possessing fiends possess other people's gears in combat, forcing them to make multiple saves against curses per round.


In the end Arthur Demonblade is a full base attack melee or ranged fighter (after divine power) who can shift his weapon enchantments each round, on the actions of his minions. He can effectively pounce with travel devotion. He has 9th level spells, six persistent buffs, and he has lots and lots of demons.

Lastly he has a sword made of liquid metal that can sever souls.

The Emperor's New Soulknife


http://dl.dropbox.com/u/407620/SilentBlade.JPG

Invisible swords can still kill.

The Emperor's Soulknife is a mime. He doesn't wear armor, and he doesn't wield weapons. But he pretends to. And as a direct result of his capering and pretending people get hurt.

Hurt for real.

Tactics:

The Emperor's Soulknife kills people through the power of Mime and Dance. He moves his body about as if wielding a deadly sword, but no such sword exists. Instead he brushes a fingertip (or fingernail) against his opponent, and as a trained mime martial artist, does more damage then most swords are capable of.

His Versatile Unarmed Striking style lets him change the type of weapon he is using, when dealing with opponents resistant to bludgeoning attacks he simply "draws" a backup weapon better suited to defeating them.

The Emperor's Soulknife is so skilled at Perform Mime, that he can use his Bardic Music Mime performances and pretend that his hand is on fire. Through the power of his latent dragonblood, he is so convincing that his hands, and the hands of his allies actually do catch on fire and inflict real burns.

Sometimes he mimes that he is a lion totem barbarian and gains pounce. (Dance of the Springing Tiger)

Lastly, once he reaches 20th level he is so good at miming that he can mime that he is riding an invisible griffin, and actually fly. (Battle Dancer's Dance of the Soaring Eagle). By changing his unarmed strikes to piercing weapons (drawing daggers) he can perform a dive attack pounce, doing double damage.




Race, Stats, and Skills:

Silverbrow Human

Starting Stats:

Str 10
Dex 10
Con 12
Int 15
Wis 10
Cha 18

After leveling up:

Str 10
Dex 10
Con 12
Int 15
Wis 10
Cha 23

After Enhancement:
Str 10
Dex 16
Con 18
Int 15
Wis 10
Cha 289

After Inherent:
Str 10
Dex 16
Con 18
Int 25
Wis 10
Cha 34

Slippers of Battle Dancing and Snowflake Wardance gives 2x Charisma bonus to attack and damage.

Battle Dancer gives Charisma to AC. Ascetic Mage combined with Monk's Belt gives Charisma to AC again.

The most important skills to max out are Perform Dance, Perform Mime, and Tumble.


Feats and Class abilities

Eberron Bard 3/ Battle Dancer 17

Feats:
1. Precocious Apprentice
B. Nonverbal Spell
3. Dragonfire Inspiration
3B. Song of the Heart (replaces Inspire Competence)
6. Words of Creation
9. Versatile Unarmed Strike
12. Snow Flake War Dance
15. Ascetic Mage
18. Extra Music

Notable Abilities:
Bard 1 : Inspire Courage, 2nd level arcane spellcasting
Bard 3: Swap out Inspire Competence for Song of the Heart.
Battledancer 1: IUS, Unarmed Damage, AC Bonus
Battledancer 5: Tumble at full speed without penalty
Battledancer 8: Pounce with a successful tumble check.
Battledaner 17: Fly speed, improved charges when flying.


Equipment and Spells:

The two key pieces of equipment are the Slippers of Battle dancing from DMG II, and the Monk's Belt. Monk's belt gives a wisdom bonus to AC, which Ascetic Mage changes to a charisma bonus. Ascetic Mage doesn't actually need wisdom to AC as a prerequisite, so you don't need items to qualify. Slippers of Battle dancing lets you add charisma to attack and damage.

Other useful equipment:
Vest of Legends DMG 2
Badge of Valor MIC
Necklace of Natural Attacks with Valorous(double damage on a charge) and other enhancements.

And the 1st level bard spell, Inspirational Boost from Spell Compendium.

Vest of Legends makes the Invisible Soulknife count as an 8th level bard.

Effective Bard Levels: +2 Inspire Courage
Badge of Valor: +1 Inspire Courage
Inspirational Boost: +1 Inspire Courage
Song of the Heart: +1 Inspire Courage
Words of Creation: x2 Inspire Courage

Using this the Invisible Soulknife can use Perform Mime to get either +10 to attack and damage, or +10d6 fire damage.


Sources:

Silverbrow Human: Dragon Magic
Battle Dancer: Dragon Magazine Compendium
Precocious Apprentice: Complete Arcane
Nonverbal Spell: Planar Handbook
Dragonfire Inspiration: Dragon Magic
Eberron Bard: Eberron Campaign Setting
Song of the Heart: Eberron Campaign Setting
Words of Creation: Book of Exalted Deeds
Versatile Unarmed Strike: Player's Handbook II
Snowflake War dance: Frostburn
Ascetic Mage: Complete Adventurer
Extra Music: Complete Adventurer
Slippers of Battle Dancing: DMG II
Vest of Legends: DMG II
Badge of Valor: MIC
Necklace of Natural Attacks: Savage Species
Valorous: Unapproachable East
Inspirational Boost: Spell Compendium




Zeratul
En Tauro Tassadar!


Human Warlock6/Mindbender1/Chameleon2/Warlock 11

Feats:1) Ability Focus (Invocations), Able Learner
3) Improved Initiative
6) Mindsight
9) Empower SLA
12) Extra Invocation (Eldritch Chain)
15) Quicken SLA
18) Maximize SLA

Invocations:Least - Eldritch Glaive, Spiderwalk, See The Unseen
Lesser - Charm, Beshadowed Blast, Flee The Scene, Eldritch Chain (feat)
Greater - Vitriolic Blast, Hindering Blast, Noxious Blast
Dark - Retributive Invisibility, Eldritch Doom

The Comparison:
Okay, I'm going to list the Soulknife's class abilities, and point out how this build either duplicates or exceeds it.

Mind Blade: Eldritch Glaive is everything Mind Blade wanted to be, and then some. I get iterative atttacks, just like a mind blade does, and I do it as a touch attack. I also get far superior damage output.

Mind Blade bonuses: Rather than getting +1, I'm getting +1d6. And I get it more frequently, ending up with an 8d6 weapon (10d6 with a magic item). Mindblade? Doesn't.

Mind Blade Augmentations: Starting around level 8 or so, he gets Beshadowed Blast. If he really wanted to, he could pick it up at level 6, this would delay entry into Mindbender by a level, but he would be picking up a Fort Save or Lose carrier attack to his attack... about the only +1 equivelant that really comes close is either Defending (if one goes for cheese on it), or Lucky.

Weapon Focus/Greater Weapon Focus: Zeratul is making touch attacks. In virtually every scenario, this gives him a much easier attack roll than these feats provide a Soulknife who has to worry about things like Natural Armor, Armor, and other such trivialities.

Once he hits 11, however, it really takes off. Now he counters the one problem he had over the Soulknife... SR. Vitriolic Blast obviates this when it becomes relevant. Hindering Blast is now Save or Slowed, which is a Lose condition. Noxious Blast is Fort save or Nauseated, which is another Lose condition. When he hits 18, he gets Dark invocations, and his floating feat can duplicate another Greater invocation if it wants to via Extra Invocation feat.

Throw Mindblade: Er, an Eldritch Blast is naturally ranged, he actually has to use an invocation to make it a melee attack.

Speed of Thought: Flee The Scene. 10' bonus to speed? How about teleporting all over the battlefield and leaving behind an image?

Bladewind Eldritch Doom. Granted, he doesn't get it until far later, but it's a 20' radius rather than melee range.

Knife to the Soul: Granted, nothing the Warlock has can do stat damage. I suppose he can pick up Bestow Curse to give a -6 to any given stat, which is actually MORE than Knife to the Soul can do. Or he can simply pick up a Wand of Touch of Idiocy (or use Arcane Focus from Chameleon to cast it as a spell), which only bestows a penalty, but happens to hit two out of the three stats at the same time, and again, exceeds the amount.

Multiple Throw Eldritch Chain. Only he's doing it a lot sooner.

Psionic Feats Well, not exactly, I do one better. Up The Walls is one that a lot of soulknives try for... Spiderwalk completely upstages it.


Duplication of role as 'scout', including stealth and detection ability

Now then, some people seem to think that the Soulknife is a 'stealthy' class. I'm here to tell you that the Warlock beats it out completely. First off, they don't have Verbal components to SLA's, so he can UMD a Wand of Silence (or cast it from Chameleon's casting) to obviate Move Silently (which doesn't hamper his communication, since he has Telepathy), and can UMD a Wand of Invisibility (Again, can also cast this from Chameleon) until he gets Retributive Invisibility for permanent Greater Invisibility.

Also, you want to talk 'scout'? Mindsight... it doesn't matter, as long as it isn't Mindless, he sees it within 100'. Furthermore, he can communicate this information to any party member through his 100' Telepathy. This is something which a Soulknife is simply incapable of doing, however it sort of happened by accident. I suppose this means he can enchant ANY weapon, not just his own, and do so permanently. For starters.

In addition, the floating feat from Chameleon combined with the Warlock 12 ability lets him make virtually any toy he would want to use. Therefore, even in a 'low magic campaign', he not only has personal access to virtually any magic item he would want, but so does the entire party. Of course, this doesn't set him far back, since he can simply 'ride the xp curl'.


Conclusion
So... he either duplicates or exceeds everything a Soulknife does. And then does more. And acts more 'psionic' than a Soulknife at the same time. Telepathy, he duplicates Up The Walls with Spiderwalk (and then some)

Notes
This is actually sub-par as far as the power of a Warlock can get. He's using otherwise worthless invocations to duplicate many of the sub-par abilities a Mind Blade has. Instead of Eldritch Doom, he could have taken Dark Foresight, which would've been far more powerful, defensively. However, the point of this competition is to mimic the Soulknife... and I suppose part of that is making sub-optimal choices.

Bonus Content - extra options that would make this even better
These are not parts of the entry, but things which, if included, would significantly increase the power of the build
If Dragon Mag content is on the table, Eldritch Claws makes this build even better. In fact, that would make him the iconic Zeratul.

This could be made enormously more powerful without really trying, but doing so would enter the realm of Known Cheese (HFW + Binder + Legacy Champion).



Big thanks to everyone who submitted a build or helped judge!:smallbiggrin:

EDIT:If anyone else has a build but hasnt submitted it, just do it ASAP, without peeking at the others builds(not sure what time it is everywhere yet, working by GMT)

[Draz74]

Hmmm. I was just going to go for a Psychic Rogue / Incarnate / Umbral Disciple using Incarnate Weapon. Unfortunately, Incarnate Weapon just isn't all that great.

[Venger]

well, I'm sorry to say that I found this thread too late, it seems like a fun idea. will you post with a link to volume 2 if/when it comes up? this is something I'd definitely be interested in

[motoko's ghost]

well, I'm sorry to say that I found this thread too late, it seems like a fun idea. will you post with a link to volume 2 if/when it comes up? this is something I'd definitely be interested in

Yeah the original brainstorming bit came up with a few ideas, so there'll be more instalments yet.

(which should be next; monk(w/out ToB),assassin or druid?)

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Arthur Demonblade... has nothing to do with Soulknife. It doesn't attempt to say "I'm a like soulknife... only better". The only part of the build which remotely tries to claim semblance is 'I gank a Gith and steal his silver sword'. I'm not even sure where the rules for forcing a pit lord to possess an item comes from, and I am certain that wish-surfing for arbitrary stat boosting qualifies as extreme cheese.

While awesome, the Emperor's New Soulknife doesn't qualify for Versatile Unarmed Strike, since it doesn't have Improved Unarmed Strike, unless the creator intends to claim that using a Monk's Belt somehow qualifies him for it. I don't know how the Judges feel about qualifying for feats with magic items, though. His primary problem is that his only real damage source comes from DFI, and Fire damage is the most commonly resisted/immunity. He has no other means of dealing significant damage, even with regular IC it's only a flat +10 damage, which is hardly inspiring. If he had used Unarmed Swordsage instead of a Monk's Belt, he would have probably gotten further.

Zeratul seems to suffer from bad editing, and is probably the least powerful of the three (although with Quicken SLA, he's the only one who can 'pounce' effectively), but at least is the closest to looking like a Soulknife. It's a well-known build for Warlocks (one of the top three most commonly suggested), which will probably hurt his Creativity score, but it does give him more flexibility than typical Warlocks.

My vote for personal favorite goes to Emperor's New Swordsage for being the most unique with a soulknife flavor.

[motoko's ghost]

Arthur Demonblade... has nothing to do with Soulknife. It doesn't attempt to say "I'm a like soulknife... only better". The only part of the build which remotely tries to claim semblance is 'I gank a Gith and steal his silver sword'. I'm not even sure where the rules for forcing a pit lord to possess an item comes from, and I am certain that wish-surfing for arbitrary stat boosting qualifies as extreme cheese.

While awesome, the Emperor's New Soulknife doesn't qualify for Versatile Unarmed Strike, since it doesn't have Improved Unarmed Strike, unless the creator intends to claim that using a Monk's Belt somehow qualifies him for it. I don't know how the Judges feel about qualifying for feats with magic items, though. His primary problem is that his only real damage source comes from DFI, and Fire damage is the most commonly resisted/immunity. He has no other means of dealing significant damage, even with regular IC it's only a flat +10 damage, which is hardly inspiring. If he had used Unarmed Swordsage instead of a Monk's Belt, he would have probably gotten further.

Zeratul seems to suffer from bad editing, and is probably the least powerful of the three (although with Quicken SLA, he's the only one who can 'pounce' effectively), but at least is the closest to looking like a Soulknife. It's a well-known build for Warlocks (one of the top three most commonly suggested), which will probably hurt his Creativity score, but it does give him more flexibility than typical Warlocks.

My vote for personal favorite goes to Emperor's New Swordsage for being the most unique with a soulknife flavor.

Possession of an item comes from Fiend of possession from FF or from some other sourcebook whose name I cant be bothered to remember right now.:smalltongue:

I've never actually used warlock or have any of my players use it so I'm probably going to have to research it quite a bit.

Seriously though what do people think the next challenge should be? It wont go up until after the judging for this one is done but I'd love to hear some suggestions.(bard-less bard, rogue that doesnt have any rogue, new diet ranger now with 100% less ranger?)

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Possession of an item comes from Fiend of possession from FF or from some other sourcebook whose name I cant be bothered to remember right now.:smalltongue:He doesn't have anything in his build mentioning Fiend of Possession. He mentions a Pit Fiend, but that's a whole 'nother ball of wax.


I've never actually used warlock or have any of my players use it so I'm probably going to have to research it quite a bit.Chaneleon build is one of the two or three quasi-optimized builds floating around for higher-end Warlock stuff. Hellfire Glaivelock would be more, but as the build designer mentioned, falls under Known Cheese.


Seriously though what do people think the next challenge should be? It wont go up until after the judging for this one is done but I'd love to hear some suggestions.(bard-less bard, rogue that doesnt have any rogue, new diet ranger now with 100% less ranger?)

Well, ToB has direct replacements for Paladin and Monk, and there's just TOO many ways to do a better Fighter...

Bard might be cute, although you'd have to ban Prestige Bard.

It'd be near impossible to do Druid... okay, you'd have Spirit Shaman to do spells, and there's a feat for the animal companion, but the shifting would have to be something like either Wildshape Ranger or a racial thing (Changeling-esque).

Psy-War would be easy to do... psi-gish with Wilder and Slayer.

Rogue... is too general. Rogue can be a ton of different things, depending on how you build one. You could go skillmonkey, you could go trapspringer, you could go precision-damage output... too many different things can be 'rogue'.

[Weezer]

Alright, time for my judgements. Here we go.

Arthur Demonblade

Innovation (Uniqueness in character concept, race, class, etc):
3 Never seen someone make such abuse of fiend of possession before, somewhat interesting, but leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

Power (How powerful and versatile it is compared to the base class):
4 Pretty powerful, but also very cheesy. Certainly outclasses soulknife in every way possible.

Elegance (What can only be described as how well the build "flows", i.e not using lots of 1-2lv dips, sacrificing flavour for power or using flaws):
2 It's just not a very classy build, binding Efreets for infinite wishes and stuffing pit fiends (somehow) into your sword just feels meh to me. And embrace/shun the dark chaos is simply satisfyingly icing on top of cheesy cake.

Fluff (How well the characters back-stories and classes mesh):
3 I suppose cleric and malconvoker fit together well, I'll give you that much.

Ingredient (How well the build captures the abilities and feel of the base class):
0 I'm not seeing any connection to Soulknife at all. You don't create a blade, you don't can't even summon your silver sword to your hand. I count this as a complete fail for this category.

I'm somewhat confused, you just seemed to dump a super powered build into the competition and yet not attempt to incorporate the ingredient. You don't even mention why you think this approximates soulknife in the build, maybe you feel there is a connection, but I'm not seeing it and since you didn't deign to explain it I have to act as if one isn't there.


The Emperor's New Soulknife

Innovation (Uniqueness in character concept, race, class, etc):
4 Cool idea, never even considered making a Soulknife clone that doesn't even use a weapon. Unique on all counts.

Power (How powerful and versatile it is compared to the base class)
3 Definitely far more powerful than the Soulknife, but not incredibly powerful. DFI can be a iffy thing to rely on, due to most high level things resistant or immune to fire.

Elegance (What can only be described as how well the build "flows", i.e not using lots of 1-2lv dips, sacrificing flavour for power or using flaws):
4 Flows well, uses only two classes that thematicall fit together.

Fluff (How well the characters back-stories and classes mesh):
4 Really nice fluff, can't beat a mime who pretends he's hurting you so well that you're actually hurt. Well done.

Ingredient (How well the build captures the abilities and feel of the base class):
4 While the feel is very different from Soulknife, you definitely captured the always can use a weapon part of the class in an interesting and very different way. Since this is the key part of the class, you get points for that


Zeratul

Innovation (Uniqueness in character concept, race, class, etc):
2 Not a very unique build, one of the standard Warlock builds and a somewhat weak one at that.

Power (How powerful and versatile it is compared to the base class):
2 Certainly far more powerful than the Soulknife, however it is a pretty weak build. Not a lot of damage output, but as you said, you took sub-optimal choices to fulfill the challenge more completely.

Elegance (What can only be described as how well the build "flows", i.e not using lots of 1-2lv dips, sacrificing flavour for power or using flaws):
4 Everything fits together and you sacrificed a lot of power to fit in better with the prompt.

Fluff (How well the characters back-stories and classes mesh):
3 All the classes work well, Mindbender is a natural expansion of the warlocks arcane abilities and Chameleon fits in with the emulate and UMD shtick.

Ingredient (How well the build captures the abilities and feel of the base class):
5 As you showed in your post, your build can be line by line compared to a soulknife and matches or exceeds it in every ability but one (Knife to the Soul). This build by far comes closest to emulating the Soulknife in every way, from creating a weapon to copying the most common psionic abilities.

Ranking:

1st: Emperor's New Soulknife, for accurate emulation of the fighting ability and incredibly unique build.
2nd: Zeratul, did the best emulation seen, but was not very innovative.
3rd: Arthur Demonblade, last for not actually having anything to do with the prompt.

[nedz]

Just returned after the holidays to discover that I'm too late for this thread.
An excellent idea BTW.
I look forward to your next competition.

[IdleMuse]

Yeah, I really like the idea of this competition, I just couldn't really come up with anything for soulknife (other than Incarnate Blade, which as someone pointed out above, isn't great.)

[The Gilded Duke]

I think a bardless bard could be a lot of fun.

[Piggy Knowles]

Bardless Bard does sound fun!

I briefly considered doing this one, but didn't devote much thought to it. My first thought was an Illumian Duskblade with a persistent Blade of Pain and Fear to channel spells through...

[kulosle]

Arthur Demonblade

Innovation (Uniqueness in character concept, race, class, etc):
4 interesting use of a rather unknown mechanic.

Power (How powerful and versatile it is compared to the base class):
4 great power due to to some very nice cheese. And cheese wasn't forbidden.

Elegance (What can only be described as how well the build "flows", i.e not using lots of 1-2lv dips, sacrificing flavour for power or using flaws):
2 I find that cheese isn't very elegant.

Fluff (How well the characters back-stories and classes mesh):
3 Cleric and malconvoker go together and so does the fiend abuse.

Ingredient (How well the build captures the abilities and feel of the base class):
1 It doesn't seem to have much of the feel of the base class.

Total: 14


The Emperor's New Soulknife

Innovation (Uniqueness in character concept, race, class, etc):
4 Very cool and highly unique.

Power (How powerful and versatile it is compared to the base class)
2 Not a lot of reliable damage.

Elegance (What can only be described as how well the build "flows", i.e not using lots of 1-2lv dips, sacrificing flavour for power or using flaws):
4 Great flow. Really works well together. Lost the last point due to odd add on of monk aspect without any monk or monk like class.

Fluff (How well the characters back-stories and classes mesh):
5 Great fluff. Normally I would say I hate mimes, but I love the idea of battle mimes.

Ingredient (How well the build captures the abilities and feel of the base class):
3 It has it's main shtick, but it doesn't really have the psionic feel.

Total: 18


Zeratul

Innovation (Uniqueness in character concept, race, class, etc):
2 Not very creative. You took a build that already exists and made it fit this challenge

Power (How powerful and versatile it is compared to the base class):
3 Stronger than the soul knife but not a very strong build over all

Elegance (What can only be described as how well the build "flows", i.e not using lots of 1-2lv dips, sacrificing flavour for power or using flaws):
4 You sacrificed power for style. You lost the final point due to level dips. I personally think chameleon/factotum shouldn't be allowed in this contest, but there is no rule against it so you are not penalized for it.

Fluff (How well the characters back-stories and classes mesh):
3 The fluff does work well with each other.

Ingredient (How well the build captures the abilities and feel of the base class):
5 As shown this is a very good mimicry of the class. Bravo

total: 17


Ranking:

1st: Emperor's New Soulknife at 18
2nd: Zeratul at 17
3rd: Arthur Demonblade at 14

[Tvtyrant]

I apologize for missing this. I ran out of time at home :C

What I was going for was:
An Artificer 5/Shadowsmith 10/Swordsage 5

The Artificer would imbue the weapon created using the shadowsmith abilities, so it could go over the crappy shadowsmith limits. The swordsage is to get the Shadow Hand feat and get dex to damage.

[Wings of Peace]

I'm a bit surprised that none of the builds used Psychic Warrior's Soulbound Weapon acf.

[motoko's ghost]

Ok,sorry for the delay, virus just hit, even crashed safe mode, took a while to get internet, am in fact posting from small internet cafe about 3Km from house, updates might be slightly sporadic for next little bit.:smalltongue:

So far its;

First place:Emperor's new soulknife with 37 points
Second place:Zeratul with 33 points
Third Place:Arthur Demonblade with 26 points

still fairly close, should be judging in next few days, hopefully:smallsigh:

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I'm a bit surprised that none of the builds used Psychic Warrior's Soulbound Weapon acf.

Probably because that's the most commonly suggested build whenever someone says they want to play a soulknife... creativity would've tanked.

[kulosle]

Yeah I admit I would have given a 0 for creativity if someone had done that.

[Wings of Peace]

I dunno, you could always get sassy and combo it with things like Arcane Duelist. That said, I don't want to derail the thread. This was a fascinating competition with a premise I was genuinely fond of and I'm looking forward to the next one.

[motoko's ghost]

Ok here's my scores;

Arthur Demonblade

innovation-3.5 interesting use of a underused class,however the wishloop trick is very well-known,heavily used cheese.

power-4 very powerful,especially compared to soulknife.

elegance-1.5 there isn't really a "flow" to this build, just several cheesy tricks used in conjunction with each other.

fluff-3 cleric and malconvoker do fit and the liquid metal sword is neat but I can't really see anything else beyond that

ingredient-0 You haven't really seemed to try to make a soulknife or really linked it to the ingredient.

total-12
You haven't really seemed to try to make a soulknife, this could have been quite a cool build, it just needed a little more effort


The emperor's new soulknife;

innovation-4.5 a concept I've genuinely never seen before and a really nice one at that

power-3 nicely powerful even if largest source of damage can be easily shut down by luck

elegance-4 nice flow with classes that fit together nicely

fluff-4 nice fluff from a very good concept and a bonus for the picture

ingredient-4 really captured the essence of the soulknife class, well done

total-20.5
This is a really nice and unique concept, that is playable in both crunch and fluff, exactly what this challenge was about


Zeratul

innovation-2 not the most creative of builds, but not copy-pasted from a board

power-2.5 stronger than soulknife, but probably weaker than the other builds

elegance-4.5 actually did sacrifice crunch for fluff, classes for the most part seem to flow, did knock off 1/2 point for a 1lv dip

fluff-3.5 the fluff for the classes does fit well together and all tie into

ingredient-5 nailed it!:smallsmile:

total-17.5
Very nice build, even though Its a commonly used build for warlock I can see you've put some thought and effort into this, well done


This put the current scores at;


1:First place is Emperor's New Soulknife with 57.5 points
2:Second place is Zeratul with 50.5 points
3:Third place is Arthur Demonblade with 38 points



The trophies probably wont be finished till the 24th though, as thats when I asked they be done by and having...limited artistic capability of my own:smallredface:

The next challenge is a toss-up between (prestige bard banned) bard and assassin, also I seem to be getting a few messages about not having enough time, should the next one have a longer deadline(3-4 weeks?)

[Teron]

If I'd noticed this thread sooner, I'd have been temptated to try putting together a build that metamagics the hell out of flame blade or a similar spell... but I don't really have enough books for this kind of thing, anyway.

Regardless, this is a great idea, and I hope you get more participants in future rounds.

[Weezer]

Ok
The next challenge is a toss-up between (prestige bard banned) bard and assassin, also I seem to be getting a few messages about not having enough time, should the next one have a longer deadline(3-4 weeks?)

I'd vote for assassin (so long as you also ban avenger :smallamused:), even though Bard seems like it would be quite the challenge we might want to go a bit easier until we

It seems to me that the lack of time (at least from the posts I've seen in this thread) stems from people not seeing the contest until just before the deadline(s), so perhaps trying to 'promote' it more somehow?

[motoko's ghost]

I'd vote for assassin (so long as you also ban avenger :smallamused:), even though Bard seems like it would be quite the challenge we might want to go a bit easier until we

It seems to me that the lack of time (at least from the posts I've seen in this thread) stems from people not seeing the contest until just before the deadline(s), so perhaps trying to 'promote' it more somehow?

Yes Yes, avenger is banned for making it to easy for the contestants:smalltongue::smallamused:

How? This one was at the top of the forum for a number of days and it was linked in my sig, dont know how else to promote it.

see right down there \/

[Weezer]

Aye, there's the rub. It's hard to keep a thread that inherently has very little discussion up at the top of the forum for any extended period of time.

[motoko's ghost]

Aye, there's the rub. It's hard to keep a thread that inherently has very little discussion up at the top of the forum for any extended period of time.

We could always get off-topic and start alignment/balance debates, everyone likes those right?:smalltongue:

[Weezer]

We could always get off-topic and start alignment/balance debates, everyone likes those right?:smalltongue:

Even better, just ban the use of ToB, that'll get plenty of people up in arms.

[motoko's ghost]

Even better, just ban the use of ToB, that'll get plenty of people up in arms.

:yuk:

There are some levels of stuff even I wont touch, and that includes "why does everyone ever hate ToB" threads

(seriously people we have like 50 of those, just trawl them for your answers)

[kulosle]

Hmm I think it would be too easy to do an assassin. I think we should stick with base classes for right now. How about marshal or hexblade?

[motoko's ghost]

Even better, just ban the use of ToB, that'll get plenty of people up in arms.

Actually I just remembered that was going to be one of the conditions if we did monk to stop "swordsage 20 syndrome" :tongue:

[IdleMuse]

I can go for assassin, or bard, as someone suggested above, although there aren't too many different ways of doing that.

Also bump, this contest needs some love.

[The Gilded Duke]

My preference is to go for bard. Lots of interesting ways to take it, although if we do assassin, I already have a few ways in mind.

[motoko's ghost]

Alright It looks like the next one will be a bard without bard or prestige bard but still focusing on the bard qualities.(that sentence makes bard not even look like a word anymore:smalltongue:)
The one after that will more than likely be assassin(banning avenger as well, more than likely, as that would make it too easy:smallamused:)

[Tvtyrant]

That next one sounds fun. I just wish the formatting didn't take so dang long.

[motoko's ghost]

That next one sounds fun. I just wish the formatting didn't take so dang long.

I know, the Iron chef format is really good for showing exactly how the build was put together, but it can be a bit difficult putting it together like that, I actually had to back out of a contest because I came late and although I had finished the build I didn't have enough time to format it properly.:smallfrown:

[ShneekeyTheLost]

If you are adding PrC's into the list, I have two for you:

Dwarven Defender
Dragon Disciple

Both of them have a usefulness approaching zero, but the concept is awesome.

Granted, it would be hard to do Dragon Disciple without either Half-Dragon (which would hurt far less), or Dragonborn (which would hurt even less than that), so that's a challenge for the participants.

Dwarven Defender, however, has a lot of ways it can go, as long as you can say 'no'. Being able to say 'dienaokkthxbai' at the same time would be a plus.

[motoko's ghost]

Dwarven Defender! I used to love that class when I was first starting out, due to the DR and defensive stance.:smallsmile:
Let me know if anyone else has any good ideas, just be aware they might not come up for a while.:smalltongue:

[Weezer]

Any time frame for when you're planning on posting the next competition?

[kulosle]

I would also suggest banning the harmonizing knight paladin variant or else that is what everyone will use for their base class. Also is using prestige classes that are originally intended for the base class okay? Also I think factotum and chameleon should be banned form these contests all together.

[Tvtyrant]

I would also suggest banning the harmonizing knight paladin variant or else that is what everyone will use for their base class. Also is using prestige classes that are originally intended for the base class okay? Also I think factotum and chameleon should be banned form these contests all together.

Why? The point is to do it in an original way, so using any of those is going to smash your originality points.

[motoko's ghost]

I wonder what would happen if the ingredient was factorum or chameleon and the other was banned? how would people replicate that?:smalltongue:

[BobVosh]

Rogue into prestige bard?

[motoko's ghost]

Alright the period for judging will be closing tomorrow, we'll announce the winner and I'll start the next competition.

Dont worry I'll put up a link to the new one in this thread.

Okay, I think it's safe to say that the winner of this competition is
:drumroll:
The Emperor's New soulknife by The Gilded Duke

with second place going to;
Zeratul by ShneekeyTheLost

and third place going to;
Arthur Demonblade also by the Gilded Duke.

Congratulations Here's your trophy
http://i42.tinypic.com/2hckwaa.jpg
It looks like your guy! Kinda (and to forestall any questions, yes that DFI in one hand and his mime-sword in the other)

And for those that asked here's the link to the new competion;
Click me! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=229736)