Idea for high level game

[elvengunner69]

So had this idea - some high level Angel/Archon crashes to earth with four divine epic level weapons right into a some temple/cathedral/holy site where a...

lvl 20 Paladin
lvl 20 Cleric
lvl 20 Monk
lvl 20 Druid

(whatever combo or maybe all Paladins or all Clerics, etc)

Players are praying there together (at least they don't meet in a Tavern!)...he claims that in the beginning there was only one God (Iluvatar in homage of JRRT maybe or Uru or whatever God was called in Silmarillion) and that Asmadeous (or some other baddy or combo of baddies) split the God or did something to separate his/her different aspects and this Angel/Archon after fighting his way to the mortal plane (and he's dying...of course) charges these heroes to right the balance and restore Iluvatar).

He hands them each a weapon (Great Sword for the Paladin, Mace for the Cleric, special belt of str for the monk & quarterstaff for the Druid). These weapons do something like 100 HP of damage anytime they hit a 'god', demi-god, devil, demon, etc. and drain the divine essence out said 'gods'.

There task is to slay all the renegade aspects of Iluvatar and restore him/her/it to his/her/it's former glory ruling reality.

Here's the kicker for every Deity slain the chances that the weapon/belt/staff consume the user increase. First God killed you have a 5% chance (for instance) that absorbing the God's essence will kill one of the heroes (the one who kills them of course). Get a critical hit and it one hits kills the God but the chances double that it consumes the wearer/wielder (for instance if the consume chance was 10% and you crit kill the God your %jumps to 20% because you absorb it all right away).

After killing maybe 90% of the Deities maybe they figure it out that the weapons are cursed and/or it's all really a plot of the Lower Planes (maybe everyone's favorite Devil Azzy) to kill off the Gods.

What do you think? Suggestions? Thoughts? Screams of moral outrage?

Divine only type characters - no arcane magic allowed (at least from the Party)

[Aegis013]

I'm not going to lie, this sounds really bad.

Having a random percent roll every time you complete a major story goal that your character is consumed? I would simply leave the table and not play.

[guatamala]

So had this idea - some high level Angel/Archon crashes to earth with four divine epic level weapons right into a some temple/cathedral/holy site where a...

lvl 20 Paladin
lvl 20 Cleric
lvl 20 Monk
lvl 20 Druid

(whatever combo or maybe all Paladins or all Clerics, etc)

Players are praying there together (at least they don't meet in a Tavern!)...he claims that in the beginning there was only one God (Iluvatar in homage of JRRT maybe or Uru or whatever God was called in Silmarillion) and that Asmadeous (or some other baddy or combo of baddies) split the God or did something to separate his/her different aspects and this Angel/Archon after fighting his way to the mortal plane (and he's dying...of course) charges these heroes to right the balance and restore Iluvatar).

He hands them each a weapon (Great Sword for the Paladin, Mace for the Cleric, special belt of str for the monk & quarterstaff for the Druid). These weapons do something like 100 HP of damage anytime they hit a 'god', demi-god, devil, demon, etc. and drain the divine essence out said 'gods'.

There task is to slay all the renegade aspects of Iluvatar and restore him/her/it to his/her/it's former glory ruling reality.

Here's the kicker for every Deity slain the chances that the weapon/belt/staff consume the user increase. First God killed you have a 5% chance (for instance) that absorbing the God's essence will kill one of the heroes (the one who kills them of course). Get a critical hit and it one hits kills the God but the chances double that it consumes the wearer/wielder (for instance if the consume chance was 10% and you crit kill the God your %jumps to 20% because you absorb it all right away).

After killing maybe 90% of the Deities maybe they figure it out that the weapons are cursed and/or it's all really a plot of the Lower Planes (maybe everyone's favorite Devil Azzy) to kill off the Gods.

What do you think? Suggestions? Thoughts? Screams of moral outrage?

Divine only type characters - no arcane magic allowed (at least from the Party)

this makes me wonder if i can make my friends deity kill himself with my psion.

[elvengunner69]

I'm not going to lie, this sounds really bad.

Having a random percent roll every time you complete a major story goal that your character is consumed? I would simply leave the table and not play.

Why - because you'd rather they be epically over powered and destroy everything they fight? Yeah that would be so....awesome. Unless I'm missing a point you are trying to make.

[gbprime]

Why - because you'd rather they be epically over powered and destroy everything they fight? Yeah that would be so....awesome. Unless I'm missing a point you are trying to make.

I think the point he's trying to make is that arbitrarily snuffing out a PC after they win a fight is a poor game mechanic. And I agree with him. That's an enjoyment killer.

[Aegis013]

I think the point he's trying to make is that arbitrarily snuffing out a PC after they win a fight is a poor game mechanic. And I agree with him. That's an enjoyment killer.

That is my point exactly. Being rewarded for pursuing the plot with a random chance to be destroyed is going to strongly encourage me to not follow the plot, and invest as little as possible into the story/game. For me, that means not playing.

[Little Brother]

The Cleric or Druid would gain one level, then craft an epic spell to get the allies to kill the gods. Next, he can proceed to do whatever the hell he wants, 'cuz he has epic magic Turn the god into a NEWT! Lose all SU-y stuffs, then kill it, no risk. And, hey, you can probably bypass the immunity because it'd epic magic, it has no rules.

[elvengunner69]

I think the point he's trying to make is that arbitrarily snuffing out a PC after they win a fight is a poor game mechanic. And I agree with him. That's an enjoyment killer.

It isn't arbitrary - it's a chance. It could even be built in that if they fail the percentage roll they get to make a fortitude save as well.

I guess I just don't get why someone would want to play a game where there is never a chance of losing...the idea for getting 'consumed' came from the Elric of Melnibone books - in one of them he uses his sword to kill a God and the power of it nearly consumes him (he's saved actually by another God if I remember correctly).

There are consequences for actions in real life which is kind of what I was looking for by having this potentially happen. Having some kind of balance to owning an epic level weapon seems very reasonable - especially one that could potentially one hit/one kill a God.

I look it as it the same thing if they had to jump a chasm in game. If they fail their 'jump' skill check and fall to their death then Aegis would get up and walk away from the game too? Maybe it would help that if they died they could return as a ghost to some random spawn point, run to their body and chose to rez themselves. But then I'd have to call it Warcraft or something like that. :smalltongue:

So maybe forget mechanics if that what is bothering you and think general concept...that's what I'd like opinions/suggestions on.

[elvengunner69]

That is my point exactly. Being rewarded for pursuing the plot with a random chance to be destroyed is going to strongly encourage me to not follow the plot, and invest as little as possible into the story/game. For me, that means not playing.

Just add the players would be unaware of this mechanic - DM would roll this everytime they killed a Deity and if they 'failed' they'd get a fortitude save chance for some lesser thing happening. Haven't thought through the whole mechanic on it yet. See above for more detail in what I was thinking.

[supermonkeyjoe]

Just add the players would be unaware of this mechanic - DM would roll this everytime they killed a Deity and if they 'failed' they'd get a fortitude save chance for some lesser thing happening. Haven't thought through the whole mechanic on it yet. See above for more detail in what I was thinking.


So long as there is a chance that the PCs/players can figure out what's happening before they instantly die, otherwise it's a blatant case of "rocks fall you die" and all the players leave.

[Heliomance]

I guess I just don't get why someone would want to play a game where there is never a chance of losing...the idea for getting 'consumed' came from the Elric of Melnibone books - in one of them he uses his sword to kill a God and the power of it nearly consumes him (he's saved actually by another God if I remember correctly).

There are consequences for actions in real life which is kind of what I was looking for by having this potentially happen. Having some kind of balance to owning an epic level weapon seems very reasonable - especially one that could potentially one hit/one kill a God.


You're absolutely right. There should be a chance of losing. That chance should not come on an unaffectable die roll resulting from winning. If the players fail, it should be because they did something wrong - or at least, not right enough. There should be something they can affect to avoid it, something they can point to and go "if we'd done this better, Steve would still be alive." Dying to a die roll because you tried to take on an enemy too powerful - that's fine. But having the very act of succeeding have a chance to destroy you? Have the only way to avoid that death be to not play the game? That's not cool.

It's the same reason (well, one of two) that I don't like SoDs. It leaves everything up to pure chance. A single die roll should never be enough to destroy a character. It's unfulfilling.

Going up against a dragon ill-prepared? That's your own fault, and worthy of death. Dragging the demon bodily into the hellrift, condemning yourself in the process of saving the world? That's your own choice, and frankly epic. Can't take the damage and succumb to the final boss? There will have been something you could have done better, some way you could have prepared more, and survived. Worst case, if it was obvious you were outmatched, you could have retreated. If you knew you were outmatched and stayed anyway, for any reason or none, that's your own choice, and worthy of death. And even if you can't think of anything, if you put up a good fight, it's still fulfilling, it's a good death.

Rolling a 1 on a d20 at the wrong time, and dying as a result, with no way to mitigate it? That's not a good death. Rolling a 1 on a d20 roll that only happened because you did everything right and prevailed? That's a jerk move. That's punishing the players for succeeding, and is going to leave a nasty taste in everyone's mouth.

Adventuring works on the rules of honour and glory in battle. Dying is not to be feared. Dying poorly is to be feared. If you die a warrior's death, looking your foe in the eye and spitting defiance to the last, that is good. If you die in an epic fight such that bards will sing tales of your deeds for years to come, that is good. If you die tasting success, paying a cost that you knowingly accepted as the price of victory and took upon yourself, then you can die happy, knowing that in your sacrifice you have won. But in that case, whether you live or die should still not hinge on a single die roll.

The laws of narrative imperative are more important than the laws of mere chance. The hero accepting a power that he knows will kill him, for it is the only way to prevail against ultimate darkness - that's a standard Heroic Sacrifice, and makes a good story. The hero accepting that power, with all its implications - preparing himself to pay the ultimate price, and setting out to lay down his life - only for the dice to declare there is no price? That's not a good story, any more than punishing the players for success. It's a letdown. It's an anticlimax. It's boring.

Decide whether the power you're giving them is lethal or not. Then make sure the characters know that. If you decide that winning the day will require some or all of them to sacrifice their lives, let them make that decision. Don't let the dice make it for them.

[Namfuak]

Actually, besides the random save or die mechanic, this doesn't sound too shabby. What if they kill 4 aspects (or whatever you end up calling them), and then when they find out that they screwed up, they have to separate to each individually take the place of one of those aspects? Each one then would have a single-player dungeon, where they have to fight their way through the demon's minions until they can reach the room where they originally fought the aspect, whereupon they are raised to the power of that aspect, and they all meet up again to go fight the demon who tricked them in the first place in the deepest reaches of the Abyssal Plane, now as level 30 epic characters.

Probably they could find a cache of useful items or something when they become aspects so that they have some pimpin' gear, and would presumably become native good outsiders if they aren't already.

Although technically, since he would be working for an evil character, wouldn't the paladin lose all his powers when he agreed to help the archon? Paladins still lose powers even when they were tricked or forced to break their code of conduct, I think.

[eepop]

Although technically, since he would be working for an evil character, wouldn't the paladin lose all his powers when he agreed to help the archon? Paladins still lose powers even when they were tricked or forced to break their code of conduct, I think.

Maybe assume the archon truly believed what he told them, but just misunderstood some ancient texts (which the BBEG may have placed for him to find).

In that case, the paladin is not working for an evil character, he is working for someone misled by an evil character.


Or maybe the "Paladin" should just play a cleric that calls himself a Paladin and bypass the whole issue while simultaneously being more powerful.

[NichG]

For any PCs I'm used to, they'd leave the track almost immediately and the whole trickery aspect would just plain fail. I mean, they'd talk to these supposed shards of the good god and would correspondingly hear back 'Huh? That's absolute rot, I've been around since the concept of Fealty and Bread Puddings were invented', and would find out that something's up. Or as Lv20 characters they'd use True Resurrection on the archon and continue to question it.

Not to mention that the second any of them got that 5% chance thing, they'd immediately stop using the things as intended and instead put all their effort into figuring out 'what the heck?' So that's basically 'there's a 5% chance per session that the plot derails even if the players don't do anything clever, which they always do'. More realistically, the second they see you roll a die when they strike the final blow they'll start looking for reasons to justify investigating the secondary properties of their weapons in-character.

So I'd say instead, if you want to do the 'Being tricked into killing the gods of good' thing, you need another angle than 'the archon told me to!' with a little more subtlety to it. What if, for example, you had the following scenario:

Assumptions of the setting needed: Good is a fundamental force in the universe and is absolute in definition. Good and Evil are important to the power and identity of gods. Absolute definition of Good trumps even a god's personal definition of Good.

Each of the weapons contains a small shard of a deity that the BBEG wants to kill. Weapons of this sort (more than just the 4) are being given to high-level adventurers across the planes, with some urging to 'use these to do good!'. The point of this is, any use by mortal will is going to fall short of the cosmic concept of absolute good. The fact that the power of deities of fundamental Good is being used for acts that are at best good on average will dilute the power of those deities. Additionally, given that these are adventurers, there will be a lot of opportunity for incidental evil along the way, little malices and cruelties that even goodly adventurers sometimes succumb to as a given for their profession.

Every non-evil being killed by one of these weapons is a 'point' against that deity. Every time an enemy is finished off when they can't defend themselves is a point. Etc. Define a code of conduct for beings of exalted good and tick off whenever the weapon's user doesn't follow it. Now the PCs are incidentally helping to kill these deities and they have powerful weapons as part of the 'deal'. Drop hints that something is tarnishing the weapons over time, and if the PCs find out the truth, then they have to about-face and start hunting down the other adventurers who have been given these weapons - other beings of good alignment in most cases! If they use the weapons against these other adventurers or worse, allow themselves to be killed, then they're furthering the degradation of the gods. So it gives them a bit of a puzzle to solve to not be successfully manipulated.

[Sgt. Cookie]

Although technically, since he would be working for an evil character, wouldn't the paladin lose all his powers when he agreed to help the archon? Paladins still lose powers even when they were tricked or forced to break their code of conduct, I think.


[The Paladin] loses all class abilities if she ever willingly commits an evil act.

In order to willingly commit an evil act, you must be aware that the act is evil. If you unwittingly commit an evil act, while thinking that it is a good one, you have not willingly committed an evil act.

[Aegis013]

I look it as it the same thing if they had to jump a chasm in game. If they fail their 'jump' skill check and fall to their death then Aegis would get up and walk away from the game too? .

I would cast fly, find someone to cast fly, get an item of fly or by some other means bypass the jump check by using planning and cunning. That's what I like to do in game. Have resources -> use to overcome challenges. If the reward for overcoming a challenge is something I do not want (like being destroyed) I will search for different challenges, but if the game is entirely set on doing those specific challenges, I'll leave the table so the rest of you can play in peace.

[Namfuak]

In order to willingly commit an evil act, you must be aware that the act is evil. If you unwittingly commit an evil act, while thinking that it is a good one, you have not willingly committed an evil act.

It depends on your definition of willingly committing an evil act. If one were to say that if you commit an act willingly, and it is evil, then you have willingly committed an evil act, then we can assume that the first time the paladin killed a guardian of a good aspect they would lose powers, even if they thought what they were doing was good.

One disadvantage to interpreting it the other way, IE if I commit an act but believe that it's good, I'm OK regardless of whether it is actually evil, is that almost any act can be construed as "good." Obviously killing babies is going to be hard to justify, but if a paladin kills a person, they can justify it by saying that that person is likely to have committed evil acts in the past.

[Toliudar]

The 'random chance of dying when you win' mechanic (do you have a plan B if one of the four PC's snuffs it in the first battle and the other PC's say 'screw this'?) may in fact not be so bad, even if it is an unhelpful mechanic. These are level 20 characters. If they don't have a way to raise one of their own from the dead, they don't deserve to go on a deicidal spree.

[The Underlord]

The real problem is that there is a straght monk and a paladin in a party with a druid and cleric. How are the paladin and monk supposed to have fun?(especially the monk. How do you have fun with a level 20 straight monk?).

The arbitrary killing mechanic is bad too. Your punishing them for winning. Its like your on a rail-road. A train is coming to hit you, and if you jump off the rocks will fall and kill you. You ide either way.

[Snowbluff]

I'm not going to lie, this sounds really bad.

Having a random percent roll every time you complete a major story goal that your character is consumed? I would simply leave the table and not play.

I don't know. Maybe getting consumed would mean getting to reroll something other than one of the bad classes, into something better. Like a Crusader... or a commoner.:smallannoyed:

[Gavinfoxx]

Why not a Lvl 20 Crusader, a lvl 20 Wild Shape (Mystic?) Ranger, a lvl 20 Favored Soul, and a level 20 Spirit Shaman? And no '5% chance of arbitrarily dying' clause?

[elvengunner69]

Think of the weapons as something that gives an amazing amount of power - but there is a cost or a price to pay. And yes having a bunch of Divine type characters @ 20th level there should be a rez or two there...maybe they figure it out...

Kicker #3 hits and actually if they do kill all the Gods a single supreme divine will re-emerge. The BBEG misunderstood the text as well...thinking once the Gods are dead they will reign supreme.

I'm sorry some of you don't like that mechanic. I guess we'll never play together. I think it could work in a game but I play with people that play to dominate D&D the play to have fun and maybe do something interesting.

Aegis do you put in cheat codes in video games too so you don't lose? I'm not saying you shouldn't but that's not how I play - flying to avoid a skill check can be good or bad I suppose it depends on the character or the situation. Difference of opinion on style. I can say the guys and girls I play with would not throw their toys out of the pram if something like this happened because to them it would be a challenge to overcome. And yes they would figure it out and maybe figure out ways to counter it - if they came up with something creative and with a decent mechanic I would totally allow it.

The idea, as I said earlier, came to me when remembering the Elric books. A scene where he killed a God with his soul sucking sword and the energy he consumed was killing him. I imagine these God essence sucking swords could cause the same thing.. I get it some of you don't like the mechanic. Thanks for your input!

Thank you too for the people that moved on realizing that horse was dead. I guess my next question would be other than the initial set up in the church/temple/holy place - how to stage some of these fights/encounters...

Trips across the Multiverse or hitting the high temples of the Gods on the mortal plane (or whatever it's called in D&D). I also never said they had to limit it to the 'good' Gods. I imagine Dukes of Hell and Demon Princes would probably want ALL Gods removed including the evil ones so they could turn the Mortal plane into a hell on earth (so to speak). I think even evil Gods would be against a Duke of Hell trying to bring Hell to his followers. Maybe not though?

[elvengunner69]

The real problem is that there is a straght monk and a paladin in a party with a druid and cleric. How are the paladin and monk supposed to have fun?(especially the monk. How do you have fun with a level 20 straight monk?).

The arbitrary killing mechanic is bad too. Your punishing them for winning. Its like your on a rail-road. A train is coming to hit you, and if you jump off the rocks will fall and kill you. You ide either way.

I was just using those as examples...any divine type player/class/etc would be fine.

It could be any combo as long as there was no Arcane casters in the mix for the purpose of the adventure.

[elvengunner69]

You're absolutely right. There should be a chance of losing. That chance should not come on an unaffectable die roll resulting from winning. If the players fail, it should be because they did something wrong - or at least, not right enough. There should be something they can affect to avoid it, something they can point to and go "if we'd done this better, Steve would still be alive." Dying to a die roll because you tried to take on an enemy too powerful - that's fine. But having the very act of succeeding have a chance to destroy you? Have the only way to avoid that death be to not play the game? That's not cool.


I'm thinking of it being something that is a consequence for using something so powerful. Again if you read the Elric books by Moorcock maybe it would be clearer what I'm trying to do. For every action there is an equal reaction idea is what I'm thinking. That energy has to go somewhere.

[Aegis013]

Aegis do you put in cheat codes in video games too so you don't lose? I'm not saying you shouldn't but that's not how I play - flying to avoid a skill check can be good or bad I suppose it depends on the character or the situation. Difference of opinion on style. I can say the guys and girls I play with would not throw their toys out of the pram if something like this happened because to them it would be a challenge to overcome. And yes they would figure it out and maybe figure out ways to counter it - if they came up with something creative and with a decent mechanic I would totally allow it.


No. I do not use cheat codes, but when there is a chasm to be crossed I'm going to use the most reliable way to go across it and not randomly risk killing myself when there are a ton of other options available to me. I'm simply trying to point out that mechanic strongly, POWERFULLY discourages the players from following your intended story, and I would follow the incentive not to do that to the point where, should I play in the group, my efforts would be soley focused on "Hey... guys... let's not... randomly see if we die by doing this, and do something else." Which is not conducive to group play. Thus, I would choose to leave the table, and not play.

It's simply motivation theory, or it could be explained through economics. Basically, when the result of an action is something you don't want, you work towards not doing that action and making sure that the result doesn't occur. When the cost of doing something can outweigh the reward (EDIT: and this chance is something entirely beyond your control or influence), you do something else.

I choose not to jump the chasm because I know there are more reliable and safe methods. That's the same reason I don't try to build a home built rocket to fly myself over to the grocery store when I can much more safely drive.

[Gavinfoxx]

Okay, can anyone who has read the Elric books explain what he is trying to do, and how 3.5e D&D can be better used to simulate that, or if D&D is a very bad system to simulate that, and why, and help come up with some other possible ways to simulate that... whatever he is doing?

[Toliudar]

I'm thinking of it being something that is a consequence for using something so powerful. Again if you read the Elric books by Moorcock maybe it would be clearer what I'm trying to do. For every action there is an equal reaction idea is what I'm thinking. That energy has to go somewhere.

The difficulty is that, in the Elric books, there ISN'T a chance of Elric spontaneously combusting, because then the story ends. There may be dramatic tension, there may be the prospect of something bad happening, but it doesn't. See the difference?

When you talk about there needing to be a challenge, a chance of losing, I don't think anyone is disagreeing. We're suggesting that putting that chance of losing into the hands of the players - perhaps at least separating things so that they CAN kill the gods without these artifacts, it's just harder - might be a better approach. You did, after all, ask for suggestions.

[elvengunner69]

The difficulty is that, in the Elric books, there ISN'T a chance of Elric spontaneously combusting, because then the story ends. There may be dramatic tension, there may be the prospect of something bad happening, but it doesn't. See the difference?

When you talk about there needing to be a challenge, a chance of losing, I don't think anyone is disagreeing. We're suggesting that putting that chance of losing into the hands of the players - perhaps at least separating things so that they CAN kill the gods without these artifacts, it's just harder - might be a better approach. You did, after all, ask for suggestions.

Yes but there is a difference to what you said vs. If that happened to me I'd have a fit and leave the table. I have no problem debating the mechanic but I have little time for the other. Like I said this was an idea and wanted feedback not people {scrubbed} think of ways of making that mechanic work.

[Heliomance]

Random, unaffectable chance is a bad way of doing this. I wrote a detailed post about exactly why, and you only responded to one bit. I reiterate - don't let the characters' fates swing on a single roll of the die.

[elvengunner69]

Random, unaffectable chance is a bad way of doing this. I wrote a detailed post about exactly why, and you only responded to one bit. I reiterate - don't let the characters' fates swing on a single roll of the die.

So give me a way to make it work knowing that their should be consequences to every action. Maybe a balancing aspect - you miss your % and make your fortitude that Divine essence becomes part of your character and you are immune from further chances of being consumed? Would that balance it and still create the danger?

I also guess I'll ask what if they stumble on to a trap with out being able to 'fly' like Aegis mentioned or even being able to fly and I guess needing a concentration check or something -- the pit is 200 feet with sharp spikes or whatever...all of it is single rolls. Isn't D&D all about our fates swinging on the roll of the die? Or are we talking about some other game?

I also mentioned that if they miss the % then they can make a will and or fort save as a back up (for maybe X effect ie fatigued for 24 hrs or something).

[Toliudar]

I don't know what "divine essence becomes part of your character" would mean mechanically. Fluff this however you want.

Certainly, creating a mechanic for an incremental penalty for using the uber-item is a much better idea. What if each round spent using the item causes a point of unavoidable ability score damage/drain, keyed to the key attribute of the classes most likely to be using it. In that way, it's draining the user's essence, just as it is the essence of the god, and the PC becomes more and more reliant on the effectiveness of that item. Then they can also stop at any time.

Really, any kind of incremental penalty for using the weapon will give the players the sense that they're dealing with seriously dangerous stuff. Negative levels.

Of course, this depends on fights lasting more than 1 round...

[Heliomance]

So give me a way to make it work knowing that their should be consequences to every action. Maybe a balancing aspect - you miss your % and make your fortitude that Divine essence becomes part of your character and you are immune from further chances of being consumed? Would that balance it and still create the danger?

I also guess I'll ask what if they stumble on to a trap with out being able to 'fly' like Aegis mentioned or even being able to fly and I guess needing a concentration check or something -- the pit is 200 feet with sharp spikes or whatever...all of it is single rolls. Isn't D&D all about our fates swinging on the roll of the die? Or are we talking about some other game?


Fates swing on the roll of the die, yes - but not on just one. Personally, I would never throw a save or die trap at my players. Save or take damage, save or have an unpleasant negative effect applied to you, yes - not a save or die. As a player, if I came across a 200 foot deep pit with spikes at the bottom, and I wasn't absolutely certain I could make that jump, I wouldn't even try. I'd find another way around or across. If the penalty for failing a roll is death, and I can actually fail it a significant proportion of the time (5% is significant, incidentally, especially if this is a roll that is going to have to be made multiple times), I'm going to do everything in my power to avoid making the roll in the first place.

If the penalty for failing is death and I can't fail the roll, of course, I'll gleefully show off and laugh at the other party members who aren't that good at jumping ^_^

In a dice pool system where your chances of utter failure are significantly lower, I'd be more inclined to take those risks. If I'm rolling 3d6 instead of d20, and I fail only on a 3, or even probably on a 3 or a 4, I'd likely go for it.

[elvengunner69]

I don't know what "divine essence becomes part of your character" would mean mechanically. Fluff this however you want.

Of course, this depends on fights lasting more than 1 round...

Maybe the divine essence of a slain God makes them divine at least while they hold the weapon. Maybe at the end if the mission is complete they might have a Frodo great ring moment where they need to surrender the weapon to the Archon or combine them to form the 'one' God. One of the reasons I like this idea is it seems it could go many different directions.


Fates swing on the roll of the die, yes - but not on just one. Personally, I would never throw a save or die trap at my players. Save or take damage, save or have an unpleasant negative effect applied to you, yes - not a save or die. As a player, if I came across a 200 foot deep pit with spikes at the bottom, and I wasn't absolutely certain I could make that jump, I wouldn't even try. I'd find another way around or across. If the penalty for failing a roll is death, and I can actually fail it a significant proportion of the time (5% is significant, incidentally, especially if this is a roll that is going to have to be made multiple times), I'm going to do everything in my power to avoid making the roll in the first place.

If the penalty for failing is death and I can't fail the roll, of course, I'll gleefully show off and laugh at the other party members who aren't that good at jumping ^_^

In a dice pool system where your chances of utter failure are significantly lower, I'd be more inclined to take those risks. If I'm rolling 3d6 instead of d20, and I fail only on a 3, or even probably on a 3 or a 4, I'd likely go for it.

Agree with the above but what if it's a trap that goes undetected? Beyond even just seeing a chasm and having to jump something random that requires a saving throw. I mean these should be happening all the time or at least some of the time. Some of the best D&D games I have played were ones where several of us died (or nearly died) over and over. Games were we pretty much wipe everything are fun for five minutes. Those are the ones I'd get up leave. :smallsmile:

[onemorelurker]

Agree with the above but what if it's a trap that goes undetected? Beyond even just seeing a chasm and having to jump something random that requires a saving throw. I mean these should be happening all the time or at least some of the time. Some of the best D&D games I have played were ones where several of us died (or nearly died) over and over. Games were we pretty much wipe everything are fun for five minutes. Those are the ones I'd get up leave. :smallsmile:

There are two kinds of games where players win: games where they win because the game is easy, and games where they win because they're clever and well-prepared enough to face the challenges the game provides. You're not acknowledging the second type, or at least implying that clever, well-prepared players--like the example of someone using a fly spell rather than trying to jump a chasm--are a result of the game being too easy. If a trap goes undetected, it's because the players didn't find it. They weren't clever or well-prepared enough to overcome that challenge. If, however, they find and dismantle the trap, that doesn't mean that they're power-gaming or don't like to be challenged or whatever, only that they overcame this challenge.

But, as other posters have pointed out, the issue people have with your mechanic is that it doesn't make the game more challenging. More dangerous, yes, because there's a higher chance of character death, but challenge implies a chance for players to overcome it, and short of taking the War Games option, there's no way for a player to prevent his/her character from randomly dying. For me, the fun of D&D is the ability to come up against something difficult and then figure out a way to kick its butt. By essentially making characters play Russian roulette with a progressively fuller cylinder every time they complete a plot objective, you're taking success out of the players' hands and making it random. If I wanted success to be random, I'd go play Candyland.

A way to put the challenge back into this would be to have using the weapons do something nasty to the character (not death, but some kind of penalty) but including some unique, much more difficult way to kill each god that doesn't incur the penalty. That way, whatever nasty thing you assign to using the weapons to kill gods becomes, essentially, a penalty for taking the easy way out.

Also, you should probably make it so that each weapon can only be wielded by the character it's made for, to prevent people from just dominating someone else into doing it for them...

[elvengunner69]

There are two kinds of games where players win: games where they win because the game is easy, and games where they win because they're clever and well-prepared enough to face the challenges the game provides. You're not acknowledging the second type, or at least implying that clever, well-prepared players--like the example of someone using a fly spell rather than trying to jump a chasm--are a result of the game being too easy. If a trap goes undetected, it's because the players didn't find it. They weren't clever or well-prepared enough to overcome that challenge. If, however, they find and dismantle the trap, that doesn't mean that they're power-gaming or don't like to be challenged or whatever, only that they overcame this challenge.

But, as other posters have pointed out, the issue people have with your mechanic is that it doesn't make the game more challenging. More dangerous, yes, because there's a higher chance of character death, but challenge implies a chance for players to overcome it, and short of taking the War Games option, there's no way for a player to prevent his/her character from randomly dying. For me, the fun of D&D is the ability to come up against something difficult and then figure out a way to kick its butt. By essentially making characters play Russian roulette with a progressively fuller cylinder every time they complete a plot objective, you're taking success out of the players' hands and making it random. If I wanted success to be random, I'd go play Candyland.

A way to put the challenge back into this would be to have using the weapons do something nasty to the character (not death, but some kind of penalty) but including some unique, much more difficult way to kill each god that doesn't incur the penalty. That way, whatever nasty thing you assign to using the weapons to kill gods becomes, essentially, a penalty for taking the easy way out.

Also, you should probably make it so that each weapon can only be wielded by the character it's made for, to prevent people from just dominating someone else into doing it for them...

I have nothing against clever/prepared players - I don't like when people say they would 'walk away from playing' because they think something is unfair. Life is rarely fair yet we want out games to be? Meh. I'd rather it be somewhat realistic within a fantasy setting. My point was the game by definition is doing some things that are dangerous that could kill a player regardless of how clever or prepared they are...even a trap...you could have a dynamic rogue trap finder and he/she could still fail a check roll for a trap. Doesn't imply or suggest he is as unprepared as the rogue who does detect it.

I have suggested many alternates which would fit 'overcoming challenges' to what I originally proposed but instead of commenting on those and adding to that discussion you chose to go back to the original post and what I suggested. I think that part of the discussion has truly been beat to death.

I do agree with your idea about only the characters getting the weapons being able to use them so they couldn't create Golems or undead to wield the power weapons.

[Tyndmyr]

I have nothing against clever/prepared players - I don't like when people say they would 'walk away from playing' because they think something is unfair. Life is rarely fair yet we want out games to be?

Er, yes. Many parts of life are also not fun, but we expect games to be that too.

Just because it's realistic doesn't make it good for gaming. I do not particularly want to play Office and Accountants.

[onemorelurker]

My point was the game by definition is doing some things that are dangerous that could kill a player regardless of how clever or prepared they are...even a trap...you could have a dynamic rogue trap finder and he/she could still fail a check roll for a trap. Doesn't imply or suggest he is as unprepared as the rogue who does detect it.


You're right. I should have said "clever, prepared, and lucky," though of course being clever and prepared (by making your rogue as capable at trapfinding and disabling as possible, as well as having good AC, saves, a ten-foot-pole, etc.) help with the luck. :smalltongue:


I have suggested many alternates which would fit 'overcoming challenges' to what I originally proposed but instead of commenting on those and adding to that discussion you chose to go back to the original post and what I suggested. I think that part of the discussion has truly been beat to death.


Oh, sorry. I thought that my suggestion of using your basic mechanic, but providing a more difficult alternative that doesn't carry the same risk of random death (or random penaltization), was adding to the discussion of how to make your mechanic work.

The idea of having a Fort save to avoid death (but still incur some lesser penalty) works for this too, but the major problem I see there is that divine casters are really good at removing bad conditions. A way around this (that's more player-friendly than the obvious "you just can't remove the penalties") would be to say that they can't remove the penalties the normal way, but there is a way, perhaps some sort of mini-quest, but it's harder than casting Restoration or something.

But I still like my idea: Don't make using the weapons the only way to kill gods, just the easiest/most straightforward. That way, the players can choose to use the weapons and suffer the consequences, but they can also try to find another way of achieving their goals, which should be more difficult but not run the same post-kill risks. That way, the players have the power to decide what kind of risk (penalization vs. a really difficult fight) they want.

[Mystic Muse]

Life is rarely fair yet we want out games to be?

Yes. The games we are playing are not real life. The point of a game is to have fun.

[elvengunner69]

Er, yes. Many parts of life are also not fun, but we expect games to be that too.

Just because it's realistic doesn't make it good for gaming. I do not particularly want to play Office and Accountants.


Yes. The games we are playing are not real life. The point of a game is to have fun.

You obviously have neither read anything I posted. It's fantasy. It's fun. I actually realize that and have said that oh...nine or 14 times. What I don't like is making it 'unrealistically' easy. I like when it's wicked hard to figure it out. Where in the holy name of Gary Gygax you got I was looking to play Ledgers & Spreadsheet 3.5 edition I will not know. :smallconfused:

To overcome the near impossible. Kind of like what they do in movies...well at least some of them. To me that's fun.

[Mystic Muse]

To overcome the near impossible. Kind of like what they do in movies...well at least some of them. To me that's fun.

I have no problem with overcoming the near impossible. I have a problem when the main story just randomly results in my death because I'm doing what I'm supposed to.

As somebody else said, the point is to give your players incentive to continue on the quest. Not to give up and go home. There's falling in battle which I'm totally fine with, and then there's the universe just randomly striking me dead, which leads to Ur-Priests deciding to kill everything.*

*The background for an Ur-priest in the Elder Evils book involves a meteor killing her husband.

[elvengunner69]

I have no problem with overcoming the near impossible. I have a problem when the main story just randomly results in my death because I'm doing what I'm supposed to.

As somebody else said, the point is to give your players incentive to continue on the quest. Not to give up and go home. There's falling in battle which I'm totally fine with, and then there's the universe just randomly striking me dead, which leads to Ur-Priests deciding to kill everything.*

*The background for an Ur-priest in the Elder Evils book involves a meteor killing her husband.

Have you read subsequent comments? It is isn't an auto kill? I'm not sure how many times you are going to only look at the first post...since then I've said for example:

You fail the initial % you get a will or fort save...heck maybe even both!
If you fail the initial % and make the will/fort save you become immune to the effects as you capture divine essence

I'm trying to move on beyond that now into other details of this adventure/campaign.

[Aegis013]

You fail the initial % you get a will or fort save...heck maybe even both!
If you fail the initial % and make the will/fort save you become immune to the effects as you capture divine essence[/I]

This still equates to chance of instantaneous random death. Fail the %, fail the save = death. It's a bad incentive, the proposed ability damage penalty with alternative options is a much better mechanic. This mechanic does not incentivize your players to do what you want. It does the opposite.

[elvengunner69]

This still equates to chance of instantaneous random death. Fail the %, fail the save = death. It's a bad incentive, the proposed ability damage penalty with alternative options is a much better mechanic. This mechanic does not incentivize your players to do what you want. It does the opposite.

Yes but again @ lvl 20 that is temporary condition.

[onemorelurker]

Yes but again @ lvl 20 that is temporary condition.

I'm of two minds about this. On the one hand, good, because if a character dies from a dice roll that there was no way to prevent, it shouldn't be permanent. On the other, if you don't expect death to be a big impediment, why kill them? I don't mean "why include challenges that may kill the characters," but why have this specific mechanic that arbitrarily kills them? You may as well just say that if you roll under whatever percent, they have to make a save or pay 25000 gp, because mechanically, that's what it comes down to.

I assume here that a party of level 20 divine casters would spring for a True Res. :smallwink:

[Mystic Muse]

I'm trying to move on beyond that now into other details of this adventure/campaign.

I have read the entire thread. I still just thought a random chance of death for succeeding is a huge disincentive to your players, and it may make them rather annoyed with you.

Apologies if I'm wasting your time, I truly am just trying to help.

[Heliomance]

Agree with the above but what if it's a trap that goes undetected? Beyond even just seeing a chasm and having to jump something random that requires a saving throw. I mean these should be happening all the time or at least some of the time. Some of the best D&D games I have played were ones where several of us died (or nearly died) over and over. Games were we pretty much wipe everything are fun for five minutes. Those are the ones I'd get up leave. :smallsmile:

I believe I already said that I'd never throw a SoD at my players. A trap goes undetected? Take damage. Take ability damage. Maybe negative levels, a disease. Heck, be teleported to a different part of the dungeon and have to find your way back. There are all sorts of things you can do to a character that aren't killing them, and killing on a single die roll is not fun.

I don't believe anyone is advocating making it ridiculously easy. We're advocating making it challenging, not arbitrary.


I have nothing against clever/prepared players - I don't like when people say they would 'walk away from playing' because they think something is unfair. Life is rarely fair yet we want out games to be? Meh.

Another vote for yes. Yes, I want my games to be fair, because I play games for escapism. I don't want my games to be real life.

Note that "fair" is not synonymous with "absurdly easy".

[Tyndmyr]

You obviously have neither read anything I posted. It's fantasy. It's fun. I actually realize that and have said that oh...nine or 14 times. What I don't like is making it 'unrealistically' easy. I like when it's wicked hard to figure it out. Where in the holy name of Gary Gygax you got I was looking to play Ledgers & Spreadsheet 3.5 edition I will not know. :smallconfused:

To overcome the near impossible. Kind of like what they do in movies...well at least some of them. To me that's fun.

Why is easy unrealistic? The mere fact that humanity has survived and flourished into the modern age indicates that humans have generally survived realistic challenges.

Why do you like rules being "wicked hard" to figure out? Why is that a virtue? All other things being equal, a ruleset being easier to learn and use makes it superior.

Ledgers and Spreadsheets was an example to point out that just because something is a realistic part of life does not make it a fun game.

Realism also rarely has to do with luck being a huge element. Fortunate highly favors the prepared. The man who makes a plan, gets resources, etc tends to be the successful one. There is nothing realistic about successfully defeating a god with a magic weapon that randomly might kill you. Nothing at all.

I would expect players killed by this to be annoyed, and for the game to be rather derailed on amusing attempts to avoid or exploit this property. Also, probably a lot of generally attempting to be the one NOT to get the killing blow. It makes the game less serious, and more ridiculous. I hate it as a rule.

[Skelengar]

To be perfectly honest, I dislike percentile rolls in the first place. With a SoD, at least you add your character's modifier.

[elvengunner69]

Let's ignore the opening mechanic and say it is a 'work in progress'

- They guys and gals I play with might not like the above mechanic but that doesn't mean they'd be annoyed enough to quit - they would be well prepared knowing them and probably figure some way to circumvent the mechanic.

I guess I wanted something like sure you can press this button and get a million bucks but it kills your dog. Do it again it kills a family member etc.

How realistic or not is purely subjective in my thinking. So my imposition on anyone or theirs views on mine is kind of silly when we are talking about a fantasy role playing world...

So again...let's forget the mechanic of getting killed by the weapons. What are some ways to pull off this campaign whilst making it fun (again forget the percentage kill with the weapons and/or saves...lets stop beating that horse over and over and over and over and over again :smalltongue:).

How do the players meet the Gods? Who are probably the top 10 or 12 gods in D&D (good & evil both) that should be taken down?

Let's move on a bit shall we?

@Tyndmyr

I wasn't implying you meant that - that was actually more a comment directed at the multiple 'Help me make my Cleric (insert whatever class here) invincible' Threads I've seen in my short time here on this Forum. I am just sort of anti-optimization because it almost seems like an exploit in a video game...using the system to dominate a game that I would think should be somewhat thought provoking and a challenge.

[Mystic Muse]

Pelor, Heironeous (Something like that) and Moradin are pretty well known good gods I believe.

Among evil are Gruumsh and Lolth, but the really infamous evil beings appear to be demon lords or Arch-devils as opposed to evil gods.

[Gavinfoxx]

Just make it a fort save or die, and have a list of logical things they can do to lower the DC of the save...

[SamBurke]

So had this idea - some high level Angel/Archon crashes to earth with four divine epic level weapons right into a some temple/cathedral/holy site where a...

lvl 20 Paladin
lvl 20 Cleric
lvl 20 Monk
lvl 20 Druid

(whatever combo or maybe all Paladins or all Clerics, etc)

Players are praying there together (at least they don't meet in a Tavern!)...he claims that in the beginning there was only one God (Iluvatar in homage of JRRT maybe or Uru or whatever God was called in Silmarillion) and that Asmadeous (or some other baddy or combo of baddies) split the God or did something to separate his/her different aspects and this Angel/Archon after fighting his way to the mortal plane (and he's dying...of course) charges these heroes to right the balance and restore Iluvatar).

He hands them each a weapon (Great Sword for the Paladin, Mace for the Cleric, special belt of str for the monk & quarterstaff for the Druid). These weapons do something like 100 HP of damage anytime they hit a 'god', demi-god, devil, demon, etc. and drain the divine essence out said 'gods'.

There task is to slay all the renegade aspects of Iluvatar and restore him/her/it to his/her/it's former glory ruling reality.

Here's the kicker for every Deity slain the chances that the weapon/belt/staff consume the user increase. First God killed you have a 5% chance (for instance) that absorbing the God's essence will kill one of the heroes (the one who kills them of course). Get a critical hit and it one hits kills the God but the chances double that it consumes the wearer/wielder (for instance if the consume chance was 10% and you crit kill the God your %jumps to 20% because you absorb it all right away).

After killing maybe 90% of the Deities maybe they figure it out that the weapons are cursed and/or it's all really a plot of the Lower Planes (maybe everyone's favorite Devil Azzy) to kill off the Gods.

What do you think? Suggestions? Thoughts? Screams of moral outrage?

Divine only type characters - no arcane magic allowed (at least from the Party)

Save my spot, I'd take this in a heartbeat.

God killing, starting at level 20? Totally badass. Would feel weird kicking some of the holier sorts ("Sorry Saint B, gotta kill ya, man." "Ya know, Pelor, you are the archetypical god of being good and stuff, a Paladin's best friend, but, whatev. Die.") but slaughtering the entire Lower Planes? Done.

I would have a small problem with the whole "5% chance per god", because I think that'd kill us ridiculously fast. For example: you have a 20% chance of a PC dying after encounter one. Assuming it goes up by 5%, you have a 40% chance encounter two. 60% chance that one died in those two, already decent odds. Now, add in a third encounter/god kill. One of the characters will die by god three, and that just doesn't work. I'd tone it down quite a bit; however, I think it'd still be pretty awesome.

Also, as to optimization: to kill a god, you have to be massively OP. Seriously, those guys are immune to almost everything that requires a save. I have maybe one character who could even try to touch a god, and they're heavily restricted alignment wise (Exalted feats, blah), in addition to having homebrew.

That said, I am bookmarking.

[onemorelurker]

How do the players meet the Gods? Who are probably the top 10 or 12 gods in D&D (good & evil both) that should be taken down?


Assuming either a generic/homebrew world or Greyhawk, everybody in the PHB is probably worth looking at. I'd echo Soft Serve in adding Gruumsh and Lolth, but I can't think of any other monster gods who are big enough deals for something like this. If I had to make a Top 12, it'd look something like this, trying to slant it toward the evil side:

The Good Guys: Pelor, Bahamut, Moradin, Corellon Larethian

The Neutral Guys: Boccob, Wee Jas

The Evil Guys: Nerull, Lolth, Gruumsh, Tiamat, Orcus, Asmodeus

These are just suggestions, though. The main thing is that the major gods in your world are whoever you want them to be. If you think Wastri is teh best god EVAR (which, guys, he totally is), then make him a big part of your campaign world somehow.

As for how they meet the gods, they go to the gods' respective planes and knock on their doors. A 20th-level divine party should be more than capable of planar travel.

[Shadowleaf]

You really need to define the powers of a deity both OOC and IC. The party listed in the original post would stand little to no chance (and by this I mean the cheesiest of cheese or death) against any of the Gods printed in 3.5.

The Gods as printed, if used correctly, will have all buffs printed permant and un-dispellable, plus they basicly have a RAW way of making rocks fall as a standard action. Obviously, this does not make for a fun encounter.

Even if you do not use the printed statblocks, I suggest against taking the fight to the deities' realms. This is a God on his home turf - s/he has probably had thousands of years to prepare the defenses of his/her realm. Imagine what an adventurer with unlimited gold and unlimited time would do to defend a plane, and then take into account that Gods tend to have 35+ Intelligence.

What I would suggest is having the party summon avatars of the Gods instead, and using the weapons to slay the Gods through their avatars. This, to me, would be a lot more believeable than having killing Deities be just like killing joe schmuck monsters.


Remove the % chance to do stuff. It's a terrible mechanic, and does not make for fun gameplay. It's like the Deck of Many Things, fun in theory but ruins otherwise perfectly good games. If you don't believe me, imagine these scenarios:

#1: Round 1 of combat versus a deity. Cleric attacks with his mace. He gets a lucky crit. Deity is now dead. Not very epic.

#2: Epic combat versus a deity ends. Everyone feels badass - they just killed a fragging God. You roll your dice, and announce that one of them drops dead, no save. Why? Because he did what the DM wanted him to do.


If you are really into the idea of MacGuffin weapons, I suggest you make the items compliment the class(es) of the wearer. A Paladin, for example, might have a sword which allows him to full-attack after a Charge, or always strike true when attacking a God. A Cleric might always overcome spell resistance when targeting the God. You get the idea.


When designing an epic campaign, think longterm over shorterm. Instead of having NPC #532 show up to a conveniently gathered group and handing them the map to the railroad, make the quest their life's goal. We're talking Angels and Demons who have been duking it out for thousands of years - I'm sure the head Demon in charge could find a few demons to 'guide' the paths of the adventurers. Turn the party into one big Xanatos Gambit (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/XanatosGambit) through their backstories; them gathering at one place is simply a result of the Demons meddling with their lives; a demon passing as the Paladin's mentor, who always encouraged the Paladin to join the Railroad Monestary. The demon then stages its own death, and with its dying breath tells the Paladin to join the Monestary. Another Demon might ensure the Monk is ridiculed and bullied his entire life, ensuring he leaves his home town for a far-away place where he can find quiet and solitude.

[Heatwizard]

As is, I don't think this plot will survive contact with the PCs. That you're putting effort into a story implies your players aren't the sort to just take plot hooks at face value and run off to hack and slash all day, and with four level 20 divine casters, you're just not going to dupe them without fiat(and don't do that). The messenger will get spy-checked, even if it's by accident(Ring of True Seeing or something), and an actual angel would at the very least run this story by their patron before running off to hire adventurer hitmen, and the boss will shoot it down.

So, maybe that could be part of the premise. Some demon or something shows up with some scheme to try and trick the party into deicide, but the party sees through it and kicks 'im out. So he goes to the next set of adventurers on the list, and gives them the pitch too. Then you can line up whatever convoluted circumstance you want to get the NPC team to accept, and now the plot's in motion again, except this time the party's playing defense.

Also, throw out the % chance to keel over. It's not the first time we've heard it, and it won't be the last, and it's just not as cool in practice as it might look on paper.

[molten_dragon]

So had this idea - some high level Angel/Archon crashes to earth with four divine epic level weapons right into a some temple/cathedral/holy site where a...

lvl 20 Paladin
lvl 20 Cleric
lvl 20 Monk
lvl 20 Druid

(whatever combo or maybe all Paladins or all Clerics, etc)

Players are praying there together (at least they don't meet in a Tavern!)...he claims that in the beginning there was only one God (Iluvatar in homage of JRRT maybe or Uru or whatever God was called in Silmarillion) and that Asmadeous (or some other baddy or combo of baddies) split the God or did something to separate his/her different aspects and this Angel/Archon after fighting his way to the mortal plane (and he's dying...of course) charges these heroes to right the balance and restore Iluvatar).

He hands them each a weapon (Great Sword for the Paladin, Mace for the Cleric, special belt of str for the monk & quarterstaff for the Druid). These weapons do something like 100 HP of damage anytime they hit a 'god', demi-god, devil, demon, etc. and drain the divine essence out said 'gods'.

There task is to slay all the renegade aspects of Iluvatar and restore him/her/it to his/her/it's former glory ruling reality.

Here's the kicker for every Deity slain the chances that the weapon/belt/staff consume the user increase. First God killed you have a 5% chance (for instance) that absorbing the God's essence will kill one of the heroes (the one who kills them of course). Get a critical hit and it one hits kills the God but the chances double that it consumes the wearer/wielder (for instance if the consume chance was 10% and you crit kill the God your %jumps to 20% because you absorb it all right away).

After killing maybe 90% of the Deities maybe they figure it out that the weapons are cursed and/or it's all really a plot of the Lower Planes (maybe everyone's favorite Devil Azzy) to kill off the Gods.

What do you think? Suggestions? Thoughts? Screams of moral outrage?

Divine only type characters - no arcane magic allowed (at least from the Party)

I would definitely not play in this campaign. Besides the "if you follow the plot I've set out and succeed, you have a random chance of dying and being able to do nothing about it" mechanic, I would also not like having my choice of characters restricted to "divine only type characters". Just doesn't sound fun to me.

[TheMeMan]

Now, it's not that I don't find the concept of the % for bad uninteresting, but rather execution you presented. Unlike most, I don't see a save or die as being necessarily ill-suited, but it needs to be a bit more than that.

My thoughts:

1. The percentage increases with each killed. I sort of like this this. However, make the percentage increase if, and only if, the weapon was used.
2. Another possible route is that the detriment progressively gets worse the more times the weapon is used. Start with, possibly, losing 1 hit-dice of health permanently if the roll fails. Work your way up from there. If they succeed the roll, nothing happens obviously.
3. A combination of 1 & 2. The percentage and ill-effects incrementally increase with each other, but not necessarily at the same rate.

This system would do a few things. First, it would(I think) get the point you are getting across much more nicely, fairly, and agreeably with the players. This way, they can use the weapons without fear of possible death. However, they will need to use the weapons wisely, as the more they use it, the more detrimental the affects become and the more likely they become as well. Quick systems:

1 Deity Killed: 3% Chance, Permanently lose 1 HD
2 Deity Killed: 5% Chance, Permanently lose 1 HD
3 Deity Killed: 7% Chance, Permanently lose 2 HD
4 Deity Killed: 9% Chance, Permanently lose 2 HD
5 Deity Killed: 11% Chance, Permanently lose 1d4 off of a random ability(Will not reduce below 1)
6 Deity Killed: 13% Chance, Permanently lose 1d4 off a random ability(Will not reduce below 1)
7 Deity Killed: 15% Chance, Permanently gain 1 negative level
8 Deity Killed: 17% Chance, Permanently gain 1 negative level
9 Deity Killed: 19% Chance, Death
10 Deity Killed: 21% chance, Death

Alter as you see fit. This way, your characters will have to make the choice of whether to use the weapons earlier on, or save them for later(If they wish to use them at all). Further, the consequences of the action of utilizing the uber weapons is respondant to their decision to use the weapon. Of course, you will need to let them know the system before using it.

This way tension can be built around the weapons themselves, and the players will have to make decisions on whether the weapons are worth using at a given juncture or not.

[Wings of Peace]

I'd give a long hard think about changing the Paladin and the Monk to something else. Unless the Cleric and the Druid are really bad or the Monk and the Paladin are really high op there's going to be a significant difference in power levels.

You could always make the Monk and the Paladin weapons better but then that means the Druid and the Cleric either have sucky weapons or feel jipped because the other two have super saiyan weapons. Alternatively, if you do still go the route of making the Monk and Paladin weapons better to compensate then you run into the redundancy that making the Monk and the Paladin into different/more versatile classes would do the exact same ting without requiring better weapons.

[Venser]

Lvl 20 party does not stand a chance against a God, unless Gods in your settings are weaklings.

[Wings of Peace]

Lvl 20 party does not stand a chance against a God, unless Gods in your settings are weaklings.

Disagree. Optimized lvl 20 party could take a god. Especially if it's not a death god.

[Shadowleaf]

Disagree. Optimized lvl 20 party could take a god. Especially if it's not a death god.Permanent all buffs from all books. Wish with no drawback as a standard action.

Your move.

[Wings of Peace]

Permanent all buffs from all books. Wish with no drawback as a standard action.

Your move.

Give more details or else my answer is just going to be scry->teleport in->nuke.

There will be an in between round in which the deity might cast celerity at which point the party's nuker will counter with their own celerity and resume.

Assuming the buffs would nullify the nuker just have another character strip the buffs. The party as a unit has a significant action economy advantage over the deity.

[Shadowleaf]

Give more details or else my answer is just going to be scry->teleport in->nuke.

There will be an in between round in which the deity might cast celerity at which point the party's nuker will counter with their own celerity and resume.

Assuming the buffs would nullify the nuker just have another character strip the buffs. The party as a unit has a significant action economy advantage over the deity.Always acting first and getting automatic actions kinda ruins it though, all buffs all the time allow for multitudes of invurnability, and free standard action metamagic (as in every metamagic, ever) on spells of level 9 or below, and Divine Avatars all over.


Attacking a deity with 40+ Intelligence on his home turf where has had litterally thousands of years to prepare? No, not before epic.

[Trellan]

I'm going to forego talking about the idea directly for a moment and instead comment on your demeanor towards the people responding, if that's okay. This is not meant as an attack in any way, just a pointer to help get you advice instead of getting bogged down in arguments: you are being really rude to people here.

You can't just post an idea on the internet, say "what do you think?", and expect instant praise. And yet, you've been rejecting every opinion that isn't agreeing with your own. What's worse, you're being really snide and dismissive about it with completely unnecessary comments about how the detractors obviously don't understand how to have fun in a game and must just cheat their way through every game they play. It's immature, and it's not going to help you get real feedback on your idea.

You're three pages in, still bogged down in the first response you got, and unable to get people to move on because you're arguing about it. Take a step back, remind yourself that they were trying to be helpful (as opposed to just attacking your idea for fun's sake), and try to absorb what they're saying. Even if you don't agree with them, you can still acknowledge that you see where they're coming from but won't be changing that feature instead of essentially saying "no, that's dumb and you're dumb, now let's move on."

As for my opinion on your idea, aside from agreeing with the others about not liking the instant death chance, I'm really worried about your statement "the players get about 90% of the way through" and discover the BBEG is pulling the strings. You should never, ever plan something that precise. You might be really good at crafting things exactly how you want, and it might turn out that they actually don't find out until then, but you shouldn't assume that they will. That path leads to horrible, horrible railroading. Assume they'll find out 0% of the way in. Even better yet, don't assume at all. Leave the clues dangling there and let them do what they will as the game proceeds.

Best of luck with your planning.

[Venser]

Disagree. Optimized lvl 20 party could take a god. Especially if it's not a death god.

Gods are lvl 40 characters.
Most Gods have a minimum AC of 65-69.
Gods have a gargantuan damage reduction.
Gods have huge spell resistance.
Gods have alter reality.
Gods have all of the most powerful spells.
Gods are immune to almost anything.
Gods always attack first and always do maximum damage with their weapons.

No, a lvl 20 party, no matter how strong, can not defeat a God. A party of at least four lvl 30 characters would have a huge problem beating a God.

[DoctorGlock]

Gods are lvl 40 characters.
Most Gods have a minimum AC of 65-69.
Gods have a gargantuan damage reduction.
Gods have huge spell resistance.
Gods have alter reality.
Gods have all of the most powerful spells.
Gods are immune to almost anything.
Gods always attack first and always do maximum damage with their weapons.

No, a lvl 20 party, no matter how strong, can not defeat a God. A party of at least four lvl 30 characters would have a huge problem beating a God.

Actually, the only ones relevant in high op play are alter reality, portfolio sense and always first, and frankly not all of them have that. Ubercharger/Mailman ignores AC and DR, the best spells ignore SR and immunities. Portfolio sense only comes into play at rank 11 and higher IIRC, and even then you can bypass it with time travel. So then you have to contend with alter reality. Step one is to choose a god that does not have it, thus they will not be glowing with every buff in the game, alternately shatter the buffs with wish or miracle, rule bender spells exist for a reason- if the DM is playing gods like that you can certainly go nuts with wish. Once the buffs are down have your tactical nuke squish the god into a fine paste. Spread on toast. A well optimized and prepared party of lvl 20s can take on gods.

[elvengunner69]

I'm going to forego talking about the idea directly for a moment and instead comment on your demeanor towards the people responding, if that's okay. This is not meant as an attack in any way, just a pointer to help get you advice instead of getting bogged down in arguments: you are being really rude to people here.

You can't just post an idea on the internet, say "what do you think?", and expect instant praise. And yet, you've been rejecting every opinion that isn't agreeing with your own. What's worse, you're being really snide and dismissive about it with completely unnecessary comments about how the detractors obviously don't understand how to have fun in a game and must just cheat their way through every game they play. It's immature, and it's not going to help you get real feedback on your idea.


Thanks for the very constructive input - as I said probably 50 times now...I have no problem with people being critical with the idea. I do have a problem with someone coming in saying they would quit. I have a low tolerance for quitters in real life so that doesn't sit well with me when I get a response of "I don't like this game - bye. I quit." One of my filters that I'm sure is out of balance when it wasn't meant (at least I don't think it was) mean spirited.

The one time I said something derogatory towards another member (which was meant a bit tongue and cheek but that doesn't translate well on a forum vs. if we sitting around having a beer) I was warned. I also messaged that member and apologized.

I said back on page one that I get it - a lot (all) of you don't like the mechanic. I was trying, as I said many times, to incorporate an idea from a book I read (Elric series). Many people came in with reasoned and excellent comments on why it wouldn't work or would work poorly. I don't agree with all of them but many were extremely valid and well thought out. I have all day for those types of comments. I have no time for someone leading with 'you do this with me at the table I walk away'. Then once I think the mechanic good or bad (mostly bad) had been debated to death I asked to move on to other aspects of this idea. Most people complied and have provided excellent insight.

Hopefully this will be the last time I have to answer this question. My tone isn't intended to be rude and sometimes sarcasm/joking/etc can be misinterpreted on a forum for something it isn't. I asked this question here because there seems to be many knowledgeable people here playing this game and I like the feedback. I might not use it all but it all certainly helps. I just don't like when people dismiss an idea w/o giving constructive feedback except saying 'That sucks - I'd quit'.

*****

Back on ranch...(or at the temple) :smallbiggrin:

Assume a group of five or six characters what Class/Race options should I use for this? I'm not tied to having a Druid/Paladin/Cleric/Monk those were examples.

Give me five characters that might have a chance to pull this off - optimization being okay but still no arcane users.

Thanks again everyone with the great suggestions/ideas - I will say generally if came across argumentative I sincerely apologize.

[DoctorGlock]

4 characters, not arcane users...

1: The Archangel- Lesser Aasimar Half Celestial Transition (LA buy off) Cleric 4/Crusader 1/Ruby Knight 10/Sacred Exorcist 5 or Pathfinder Holy Warrior Cleric 6/Prestige Paladin 4 (grab battle blessing and sword of the arcane order (still divine spells))/Knight of the Raven 10 (the second version is more casting, the first is more melee, but the second is far stronger. you might feel it violated the spirit of no arcane thought)

2: The Divinity- Human cloistered cleric 5/divine oracle 5 (grab southern magician before 10)/Dweomerkeeper 10

3: The Planeswalker- Druid 10/Planar Shepherd 10

4: The Paragon- Monk 2/Ardent 10/Shiba Protector 1/Slayer 7, note that ardents are wisdom based psionicists that derive power through either force of will or dedication to a cause, much like clerics. This build requires practiced manifester to get 9th powers, but can get SU transformation for reality revision and can god better than the dweomerkeeper. Grab substitute power and dominant ideal (time) to have ridiculous action spam and insightful strike for x2 wisdom to hit.

[SamBurke]

That's 4, not 5.

Personally, I'd make a Cleric and call it a paladin with the fluff. Also, Team Solar comes to mind. ToB works well, too. I seem to remember something for changing the Sorc or Wiz to divine, but I'm sure that's a mistake on my part...

[Wings of Peace]

Always acting first and getting automatic actions kinda ruins it though, all buffs all the time allow for multitudes of invurnability, and free standard action metamagic (as in every metamagic, ever) on spells of level 9 or below, and Divine Avatars all over.


Attacking a deity with 40+ Intelligence on his home turf where has had litterally thousands of years to prepare? No, not before epic.

Of the pre-generated deities not all of them have always first nor do most of them have 40 int. Even those that do aren't too relevant since a party of casters can still out Celerity them to win the action economy race and use summons against the deities summons.

Multitudes of Buffs aren't terribly relevant against a focused barrage of Disjunctions from even one caster either.

Portfolio sense is the only relevant and un-interruptable power a deity has that gives it an edge over the players but then the players could counter with a Weird for free action divination to plan their strategy and time travel hi-jinx to guarantee showing up at the most optimal time.

You also say the deity has had thousands of years to prepare but that's incorrect since at level 20 time travel is far from impossible. None of these things require players to be a higher level than 20.

[Heliomance]

Just make it a fort save or die, and have a list of logical things they can do to lower the DC of the save...

Eh, that's still an unavoidable 5% chance of failure.

[molten_dragon]

Back on ranch...(or at the temple) :smallbiggrin:

Assume a group of five or six characters what Class/Race options should I use for this? I'm not tied to having a Druid/Paladin/Cleric/Monk those were examples.

IMO you should not be making characters for your players (not sure if this is what you have in mind) or limiting what they're allowed to play to only characters of a certain archetype without first making sure they're okay with it. As I mentioned before, I'd be likely to not join a game where my character choices were so restricted, even leaving out the epic weapon mechanic.

[DoctorGlock]

That's 4, not 5.

Personally, I'd make a Cleric and call it a paladin with the fluff. Also, Team Solar comes to mind. ToB works well, too. I seem to remember something for changing the Sorc or Wiz to divine, but I'm sure that's a mistake on my part...

Typo fixed.

Team solar is probably a bit obscene for actual play, but when taking on gods...

Alternate Spell Source and Southern Magician allow arcane spells as divine or vice versa, might be what you were thinking. Otherwise archivist and divine bard are the only things I can imagine

Hmmmmm, I should throw archivist on the list to bring it up to 5

[Shadowleaf]

Of the pre-generated deities not all of them have always first nor do most of them have 40 int. Even those that do aren't too relevant since a party of casters can still out Celerity them to win the action economy race and use summons against the deities summons.

Multitudes of Buffs aren't terribly relevant against a focused barrage of Disjunctions from even one caster either.

Portfolio sense is the only relevant and un-interruptable power a deity has that gives it an edge over the players but then the players could counter with a Weird for free action divination to plan their strategy and time travel hi-jinx to guarantee showing up at the most optimal time.

You also say the deity has had thousands of years to prepare but that's incorrect since at level 20 time travel is far from impossible. None of these things require players to be a higher level than 20.


Actually, the only ones relevant in high op play are alter reality, portfolio sense and always first, and frankly not all of them have that. Ubercharger/Mailman ignores AC and DR, the best spells ignore SR and immunities. Portfolio sense only comes into play at rank 11 and higher IIRC, and even then you can bypass it with time travel. So then you have to contend with alter reality. Step one is to choose a god that does not have it, thus they will not be glowing with every buff in the game, alternately shatter the buffs with wish or miracle, rule bender spells exist for a reason- if the DM is playing gods like that you can certainly go nuts with wish. Once the buffs are down have your tactical nuke squish the god into a fine paste. Spread on toast. A well optimized and prepared party of lvl 20s can take on gods.
Delay Teleport everywhere all the time gives you a round before the players arrive. One Quickened Maximized Extended Still Silent plus whatever Metamagic feats you want Time Stop later and the Deity should be ready for the player's arrival. Also Timeless Body is up when it's not the Deity's turn. Heck, this is even assuming the Deity hasn't just warded everything with every ward-type spell ever. Sphere of Annihilations spread out 80 feet apart all over the plane would also work wonders. And last let's not forget the 5-20 Avatars of the Deity, plus an army of solars and the flavour of the month angels.

Killing Deities before Epic Magic? Not very likely.

[DoctorGlock]

Delay Teleport everywhere all the time gives you a round before the players arrive. One Quickened Maximized Extended Still Silent plus whatever Metamagic feats you want Time Stop later and the Deity should be ready for the player's arrival. Also Timeless Body is up when it's not the Deity's turn. Heck, this is even assuming the Deity hasn't just warded everything with every ward-type spell ever. Sphere of Annihilations spread out 80 feet apart all over the plane would also work wonders. And last let's not forget the 5-20 Avatars of the Deity, plus an army of solars and the flavour of the month angels.

Killing Deities before Epic Magic? Not very likely.

I mentioned by 20th, you can hack epic casting in by then, though it is not needed. Also wish based transport ignores anticipate teleport and you are shapechanged into a gibbering orb and fire 24 disjunctions per round, 240 because a team mate is a planar shepherd, good bye buffs. Also all that free metamagic eats into the god's rounds, he goes dormant whenever he applies it. How is he getting psionics anyway? Alter reality only ever mentions spells. No rules for him having spheres of annihilation, can't just hack those in. Avatar is a specific SDA, not every god has it. Lets not assume avatars and minionmancy because the PCs can also solar legion and ice assassin, keep this party vs god.

Frankly, if we are going all out cheese the player will be on either a timeless spot on the astral or a fast time demiplane (or projecting from one to the other to grab both and will thus also have every buff in the game at infinite duration. Suddenly the god feels less special. The player has wish and miracle either at will with no cost or close enough to also have alter reality. The god is just another wizard with higher stats, making the fight very difficult but still doable.

[NichG]

The argument of 'can a Lv20 party kill a god' isn't really relevant to the OP's needs I think. At least, not the argument about the case where both sides are fully optimized. The fact of the matter is, as DM he can make a deity as optimized or unoptimized as he needs for the thing he wants to run. So the real point to take out of this is, don't throw TO or high-op enemies that are also higher level/tier against your low- or medium-op party.

For a similar reason I wouldn't suggest making Team Solar pregens for your players if you and they both don't have the level of optimization savvy and optimization desire to make such things for themselves. It'd make for a game which would be very confusing, I think, since people wouldn't really know what buffs they have, why they have them, and how they really work, so a large portion of game would be spent in 'oops, I didn't realize I had this Holy Star spell. Lets look it up... huh, it doesn't say the same stuff as in the character sheet... oh wait, they used the version printed in Savage Species instead of Spell Compendium, etc, etc'

Better to do characters and enemies with mechanics you're comfortable with.

As far as pregen versus not-pregen, I tend to favor pregens for 1-3shots since it means the DM can actually plan for what the characters can do (this is a way to make a 'high level dungeon crawl' feasible, for instance, by using pregens that don't have any source of scry/teleport/find the path/whatnot by construction).

However, in longer campaigns people will want to do things to push their character's interests outside of just the main plot, and pregens (especially pregens with fixed advancement patterns) kill that impetus.

[Tyndmyr]

Permanent all buffs from all books. Wish with no drawback as a standard action.

Your move.

Er, they can't permanency all spells. Permanency only works on an explicit list.

Realistically, it's going to come down to op level for the exact number...but many of the gods as listed are not extremely optimized. Don't get me wrong...they're potent, but there are ways around their defenses.


Gods are lvl 40 characters.
Most Gods have a minimum AC of 65-69.

With, typically, a notably lower touch AC. Note that True Strike is a first level spell, and can make up a goodly part of this gap, if a gap exists).


Gods have a gargantuan damage reduction.

Anything that is doing melee damage is doing enough to not care about DR ever by level 20. If they get the charge, it tends to splatter. And seriously, it tops out at DR 30. That's not terrible.


Gods have huge spell resistance.

SR: No spells are fairly accessible.


Gods have alter reality.

Not all of them. They have salient divine abilities, which are awesome, yes. Not every one has alter reality.

Even those that do, still need to use it on their turn. And it's still a limited ability. Much like antimagic field, there's a lot of limitations in the fine print.


Gods have all of the most powerful spells.

Nonsense. Yes, many are spellcasters, but they do not have all spells on their list by virtue of being a god. It gets what's on it's domain list. Sometimes these are good, sometimes they're...meh. They may have access to other spells or not, depending.


Gods are immune to almost anything.

Nah. Fire actually works on them most of the time, and that's hardly an exotic weapon type. They have some immunities, but gods are overrated. Undead get most of the same immunities...and hell, they also have immunity to precision damage, which gods do not get by default.


Gods always attack first and always do maximum damage with their weapons.

No. They do not attack first. They merely get to take 20 on the roll. There is a HUGE difference there. Taking 20 is awesome, but it can be defeated in a number of ways(dire turtle, celerity, etc).


No, a lvl 20 party, no matter how strong, can not defeat a God. A party of at least four lvl 30 characters would have a huge problem beating a God.

Pick me an array of gods of varying divine rank, and I'll pick the party, sir. I guarantee this party will be able to kill at least some of them.

[DoctorGlock]

Er, they can't permanency all spells. Permanency only works on an explicit list.


He's talking about alter reality which allows the god to permanence literally any buff. The thing he ignores is by abusing timeless traits on the astral plane the wizard/STP Erudite can do the same thing and also has the equivalent of alter reality. With enough optimization the god and the party are on equal terms but the party has more actions, and alter reality is a standard action to use, meaning in the action race the god is behind celerity, anticipatory strike and twin linked synchronicities (party ardent)

I'm thinking:
1: STP Erudite, SU transform and earth spell, does the time travel, wish, gate and ice assassin for the party
2: Wizard/Incant/Tainted Scholar/Ultimate Magus, borked caster level and reserves of str, shapechange into a gibbering orb for disjunction spam and whatnot, dragon mag staff recharge or wand surge for the same as the erudite. without the mailman he uses his staff to emulate greater arcane fusion-celerity+wings of flurry, empties 50 charges at close range. DC and CL based on his own, with tainted scholar that's a DC of "NO" and cl around 35. His first turn was disjunction spam, fre action shift to chronotryn, use the double turns to start the staff chain.
3: Planar shepherd, his role is obvious
4: Ardent, magic mantle and substitute power, dominant ideal time, SU transform, Psyreform and reality revision, then synchronicity spam. Grabs psionic disjunction off the erudite, uses his readied action chain to counter the god whenever he needs
5: Possibly not needed, but a mailman sorcerer.

Jump out of your time gate, wish/reality revision to the god, shatter his defenses with 50 disjunctions, then unload a few thousand force damage. That's how I'd do it. What was your plan tynd?

[Bebo]

I think there are a couple of potential plot holes in this story idea.

1. How critical is it that the Angel/Archon dies in the opening scene? Because if he has enough time to convince the PCs to take on his quest, they will certainly have enough time to heal him (between five 20th level divine characters you should have any and all required healing/restoration spells "on tap").

2. How long can a group of divine only PCs mess with the gods before they are cut off from their powers? It is the classic case of biting the hand that feeds you. The first time they kill a god that is friendly with their patron they can reasonably expect to loose all of their divine abilities, and then its game over.

3. For that matter, they would likely never get the chance to start their quest (assuming they want to). Five high priests (or the equivalent title for the druid/paladin/etc.) are together in a temple (dedicated to at least one of their patrons) that just had an Angel/Archon crash through the roof. This alone would be enough to draw that patron deity's attention. Add to that the fact that these most holy of holy men/beings then have a little chat about killing half the pantheon, and the logical conclusion (again, assuming they agree to the plan) would be the immediate suspension of all divine powers. At a minimum.

With that said, there may be ways to salvage the core idea (god-hunting spree).

First, you could go for an all evil divine only group. As long as their evil patron deity is not on the hit list and is not opposed to the reunification of the "super" god, then you would not have an issue with the loss of power.

Or, you could completely change your mind on the PC power source and go for an all arcane (no divine) group. :smallsmile: Based on the previous posts regarding the feasibility of a group of 20th level characters taking out a deity, it sounds like those advocating this as possible all assume access to arcane casting in some form.

[DoctorGlock]

To be fair there are alternate sources for divine magic. Devotion to a cause, divine theft (Ur-Priest) or pure force of will (Wisdom based casting), I personally have never played a divine caster as a grovelling fool. Unless this is forgotten realms in which case the gods are out to get you anyway so play Ur-Priests or grab shadow weave because they will depower you out of pure spite and malice then condemn you to the Wall.

[SamBurke]

Or, alternately, you could have all-good characters going on a quest to annihilate all the evil gods. Would make a ton more sense, at least to me.

[elvengunner69]

I think there are a couple of potential plot holes in this story idea.

1. How critical is it that the Angel/Archon dies in the opening scene? Because if he has enough time to convince the PCs to take on his quest, they will certainly have enough time to heal him (between five 20th level divine characters you should have any and all required healing/restoration spells "on tap").

Not critical - it could be a constant contact as well per se throughout the campaign or maybe they stumble upon an abandoned level in a sacred grove (secret tunnel or something...and find the prophecy and weapons after defeating it's guardian -- a souped up Lamasu (sic) or something?

2. How long can a group of divine only PCs mess with the gods before they are cut off from their powers? It is the classic case of biting the hand that feeds you. The first time they kill a god that is friendly with their patron they can reasonably expect to loose all of their divine abilities, and then its game over.

I'm guessing some kind of protection afforded by their weapons? Especially as the weapons trap the essence of the God's killed there source could become the weapons - just speculation but an idea to counter that.

3. For that matter, they would likely never get the chance to start their quest (assuming they want to). Five high priests (or the equivalent title for the druid/paladin/etc.) are together in a temple (dedicated to at least one of their patrons) that just had an Angel/Archon crash through the roof. This alone would be enough to draw that patron deity's attention. Add to that the fact that these most holy of holy men/beings then have a little chat about killing half the pantheon, and the logical conclusion (again, assuming they agree to the plan) would be the immediate suspension of all divine powers. At a minimum.

With that said, there may be ways to salvage the core idea (god-hunting spree).

First, you could go for an all evil divine only group. As long as their evil patron deity is not on the hit list and is not opposed to the reunification of the "super" god, then you would not have an issue with the loss of power.

Or, you could completely change your mind on the PC power source and go for an all arcane (no divine) group. :smallsmile: Based on the previous posts regarding the feasibility of a group of 20th level characters taking out a deity, it sounds like those advocating this as possible all assume access to arcane casting in some form.

(see green text above)

I considered the killing of evil Gods only but thought killing of 10 to 12 major God's regardless of goodness or evilness would be a better plot device especially if could create an Ultra God. Other options would be all the Chaos gods (good/bad) or you could maybe even twist this around to the Gods wanting the Demons and/or Devils destroyed - and maybe the weapons once they kill a major Devil/Demon Lord/Duke/Prince/etc then maybe instead of a kill % maybe a slow alignment shift? Since the essence is captured in the swords maybe the players are faced at least at the end of choosing to become the next set of Devil/Demon Lords or ending their evil once and for all?