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Venger
2011-12-09, 02:00 AM
Okay, so, I'm playing a chameleon in my current game (factotum5/chameleon3) and have only recently had sufficient funds to put some spells in his spellbook.

these spells were all copied out of the party wizard's spellbook and a number of them are available to my guy at a lower level since a chameleon's spells "may be chosen from the spell list of any arcane spellcasting class"

due to the level one can enter chameleon, new spell levels are accessed a level or two behind a pure caster (like a wizard) so at the moment, she's casting 5ths and I'm still on 3rds. as a result, I only copied a few of the spells in her book into mine (obviously ones that I can't just get from divine focus)

the point of "any arcane spellcasting class" is to let chameleons get some spells at lower levels than wizards to make up for the fact that they only get 6th lvl spells. he's already let me do this for my divine focus, since they too "may be chosen from the spell list of any divine spellcasting class"

however, when I mentioned that I can cast dispel magic (one of the spells in my book from the wizard) as a 1st lvl spell (from the trapsmith list) he said I couldn't do this. (note: I have not cast dispel magic a single time in this game)

I asked him why and he said that since I pulled the spells from a wizard spellbook, that they stay as their own spell level, so I'm from his interpretation supposed to cast it as a 3rd lvl spell.

I am almost 100% sure that is not how chameleon works. you scribe a spell into your book from a wizard's spellbook (or a scroll, but really, who takes scribe scroll? wizards get it free) and then cast it as a (whatever class) instead in order to once in a while be able to cast it using a slightly lower level slot.

using his interpretation... what's the point of playing chameleon?

most spells exist on the wizard list and also on other ones (like haste) and it was understood that if I wanted sonorous hum or fire shuriken or whatever, I'd have to find a scroll of it especially from an oddball bard or assassin-crafted scroll to add to my book.

my reasoning in cribbing from the wizard was to help the party double up on combat spells (scorching ray, fireball,etc, that's the kind of stuff she puts in her book) and since I have fewer spell slots and at lower level, I wouldn't be upstaging her.

the DM also rolls randomly for scrolls, so it's not like I give him a list of stuff that I want to find, just if there is something that the party finds that's on the wizard list (which it always is since we have a wizard) I want my chameleon to be able to use the spell too as a bard or trapsmith or whatever so he can keep up, otherwise, I'm just playing a wizard that's not very good at his job.

note: he has already banned the chameleon extra spell trick, as most DMs do, which is fair enough, so I can't just get more spells this way.

is my interpretation correct? if not, where did I go wrong? if so, how can I explain it to my DM so he can let me play chameleon like a chameleon?

Baka Nikujaga
2011-12-09, 02:27 AM
From what I remember concerning the Archivist, spells gained from a non-Cleric are cast as at the spell level of the non-Cleric even if the spell appears on the Cleric's spell list. This means that the Archivist can possibly cast the spell at a lower level, but to do so must acquire a scroll from or somehow convince a non-Cleric divine caster to teach him about the workings of the spell. As an example an Archivist who learns a spell from the Cleric spell list that also appears on the Paladin spell list cannot cast the spell at the Paladin's spell level until he has learned the spell from a Paladin.

In any case, your character could attempt to "procure" scrolls or spellbooks by stealing, purchasing, or via a mentor.

Callyn
2011-12-09, 02:32 AM
Spells take a certain number of pages in a spellbook per level of the spell. The ones which you are copying from the Wizard are Wizard spells of that level. I agree with your DM's ruling, though I don't think he is being fair to you. You should talk to him about getting the scrolls you want.

As for who takes Scribe Scroll, anyone who wants to be able to make a backups of their less used spells. It's a good feat.

tyckspoon
2011-12-09, 02:39 AM
As for who takes Scribe Scroll, anyone who wants to be able to make a backups of their less used spells. It's a good feat.

You can also hunt down somebody who knows the spell you want, use your floating feat to pick Scribe Scroll, and use the rules for collaborating on a magic item to make a copy of the spell. Same way Archivists gather spells from Druids/domain Clerics who don't usually bother with Scribe Scroll. It shouldn't be too hard to find Bards who have the more worthwhile spells from that list, and Assassins may be doable depending on your character's morality and game-world contacts.. good luck hunting up a Trapsmith, tho, that kind of stretches my personal sense of permissiveness (otoh, the same people who can help you get in touch with Assassins probably can help rustle up a Trapsmith, so maybe it's not that far out.)

Viktyr Gehrig
2011-12-09, 08:39 AM
Your DM is wrong per RAW, but I agree with him. Being able to get spells from any class spell list is powerful enough on its own without being able to take advantage of special level discounts.

Qwertystop
2011-12-09, 09:10 AM
I think he's right by RAW. You're copying a Wizard's Dispel Magic, which takes 3 pages of the spellbook, and is a level 3 spell. Therefore, the spell you get is that 3-page, level 3, Dispel Magic.

If you got it from a Trapsmith, it would be one page, be a level 1 spell, and you could get it as that.

gbprime
2011-12-09, 10:14 AM
I think he's right by RAW. You're copying a Wizard's Dispel Magic, which takes 3 pages of the spellbook, and is a level 3 spell. Therefore, the spell you get is that 3-page, level 3, Dispel Magic.

If you got it from a Trapsmith, it would be one page, be a level 1 spell, and you could get it as that.

This, yes.

Think of it as having to track down a Masterwork Spell. You know Dispel Magic as a 3rd, you need to locate that rare Dispel Magic as a 1st.

It's ultimately up to the DM, but I'd make them hard to get. Bards and Hexblades don't typically scribe scrolls, after all.

Slipperychicken
2011-12-09, 10:59 AM
You were trying to copy a Wizard's Dispel Magic, a 3rd level spell. Your DM is right: from the Wizard you copied it from, it is a 3rd level spell. You need to find a Trapsmith's Dispel Magic (in scroll form most likely) to copy it as 1st level.


EDIT: If your DM doesn't let you find Trapsmith scrolls, locate the Chameleon Castle, League of Chameleons HQ, or wherever those guys hang out in your setting. Get your spells from them, like you would a wizarding guild. You can also commission them from a Trapsmith, which should work.

JadePhoenix
2011-12-09, 11:40 AM
Your DM is right by RAW.
You can, however, simply use your floating feat for Extra Spell, choose Trapsmith's dispel magic, and copy it into your spellbook.

Qwertystop
2011-12-09, 11:51 AM
Your DM is right by RAW.
You can, however, simply use your floating feat for Extra Spell, choose Trapsmith's dispel magic, and copy it into your spellbook.

Wow.

So Chameleons get as many spells as they want for just the cost of the ink?

gbprime
2011-12-09, 11:57 AM
Wow.

So Chameleons get as many spells as they want for just the cost of the ink?

As a GM I'd veto that, personally.

Venger
2011-12-09, 11:59 AM
Your DM is right by RAW.
You can, however, simply use your floating feat for Extra Spell, choose Trapsmith's dispel magic, and copy it into your spellbook.


Wow.

So Chameleons get as many spells as they want for just the cost of the ink?

okay, thanks everybody, I've let him know and am waiting on a response.

while RAW you are correct and that extra spell allows you all the spells you want (no ink either, it just appears in your spellbook) I mentioned in the OP that my DM has given me a nope on it. while initially I did explain how the extra spell trick worked and he said it was fine, once I actually got my second chameleon level and tried to use it he said I couldn't do it anymore.

otherwise I wouldn't need all of this hunting for scrolls nonsense :smalltongue:

JadePhoenix
2011-12-09, 01:09 PM
okay, thanks everybody, I've let him know and am waiting on a response.

while RAW you are correct and that extra spell allows you all the spells you want (no ink either, it just appears in your spellbook) I mentioned in the OP that my DM has given me a nope on it. while initially I did explain how the extra spell trick worked and he said it was fine, once I actually got my second chameleon level and tried to use it he said I couldn't do it anymore.

otherwise I wouldn't need all of this hunting for scrolls nonsense :smalltongue:

Well, Extra Spell for a Chameleon does not work as easily. Yes, it shows up on your spellbook, but it will vanish when you change your feat the next morning. So you use the feat, copy it, and then you are free to choose any other feat the other day.
I missed your mention of this in the OP, sorry.
According to some book (A&EG, IIRC) finding someone with a specific prestige class is supposed to be pretty hard, even not giving it a set DC.

Venger
2011-12-09, 01:19 PM
Well, Extra Spell for a Chameleon does not work as easily. Yes, it shows up on your spellbook, but it will vanish when you change your feat the next morning. So you use the feat, copy it, and then you are free to choose any other feat the other day.
I missed your mention of this in the OP, sorry.
According to some book (A&EG, IIRC) finding someone with a specific prestige class is supposed to be pretty hard, even not giving it a set DC.

that's a matter of some debate (whether the extra spell is in effect "instantaneous" or not) but in any event, I can't do it, so it's moot. no problem, that's why I pointed it out.

what is A&EG? allies and enemies? yeah, I know it is, (especially since our game for the most part doesn't treat classes as in-game constructs the way OOTS does) but it's not like I have a choice

no DC means RP only, and that's fine by me. if you could give a page number, that would be great.

what is the knowledge roll when you make checks to know about how all the weirdo PrCs work? is it local, nature, or what? I don't usually see it in the "(class) in the world" section. I think that's the thing I need to hit if A&E doesn't give one.