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Ancalagon
2011-12-09, 05:57 AM
Given 819, there are a few things that seem to be interesting questions.

Let's assume Nale does get captured. Anything else would seem awkward, why should Nale escape now?

What consequences does that have? Will Nale get killed? Right now, I think the obvious answer is "yes", but I'd not be that hasty with Tarquin. More on that below.

Nale getting captured will probably lead to Tarquin knowing about the gates. What will that knowledge mean to him? Will he want to grab them to "build an even grander legend" for himself? There seems to be reason to believe he would, as he knows that resources mean power and imagine what you could conquer with the Power of this Snarl behind him (it does not have to work as he thinks). And what you must now forget, he is named Tarquin (Tarkin) after all! I fail to see how he can let pass a Battle StaSnarl besides him.

Or will he assist the Order in shutting down any attempt to conquer them? That makes also sense, as the gates in someone else's hand (or the destruction of the plane) is actually a threat to his empire.

Now, that aside what happens to Nale?
Yes, he might kill him (as in "let Malack decide what to do with Nale"). But he could say "Nale is my son after all. He is a retard, but he is my son, all differences aside". In that case, Nale > Malack. I think this is unlikely but far from impossible.
If he think he would gain more from letting Nale lose again, he'd do it.

Right now, I am afraid (I said often enough I want the LG to have a climax and then be gone for good) that we have not been shown Thog. So with Thog possibly alive, the Drow in Tarquin's hands, and Nale very likely captured it could be we still have another LG-round ahead of us in the future. It seems unlikely that the LG (who are B-string-antagonists to the Order) are completely wiped out by another NPC (even without the knowledge of the protagonists).

So I want to raise two basic questions:
1. What's Tarquin to do once he has learned about the gates? At this point I very much doubt he will not capture Nale and learn from him what he knows (at least a twisted version of that)?

2. What is he going to do with Nale once he has that knowledge? Is Nale getting killed? And if not, what's going to happen with Malack (who will not be standing silently while Tarquin releases Nale)?

PS: Let's not what Sabine will do in case Nale is dead until we know Nale is actually dead. ;)
She might attempt to free him, though.

Raistlin82
2011-12-09, 07:05 AM
You're assuming they will capture him. Which is, of course, very very likely, actually. But not certain.

2) Anyway, I doubt Tarquin will allow Malack to kill Nale. Yes, he's Evil, but I think he has a soft spot for his kids and doesn't really want to go through with it. Probably he has something planned already to completely defeat Nale (or to USE him) without killing him, while keeping Malack content at the same time. Maybe he won't straight out lie to Malack, but he might not tell him the whole truth, if you know what I mean. Or maybe he could make it easy for Sabine to rescue him, while at the same time not letting either Malack or Nale and Sabine know that he helped them.

1) That being said... I think we're overlooking a big hint here. In comic #819 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0819.html), panel 4, Malack asks Tarquin if he sent Elan's team together because he believes they will be able to catch Nale. Tarquin distracts him (and us) by focusing the attention on the fact that Nale didn't leave the building. What I find more interesting, though, is that he went to all this length to put the party together and help Elan, while knowing that he wasn't going to find Nale over there. To me, that means that, despite what Roy might think, he's not completely oblivious to the Gate/Snarl situation (and he'd be a fool not to wonder about what could be so important for Elan, Nale and Draketooth). How much he knows is hard to determine, but sure he knows more than he shows.

Gitman00
2011-12-09, 09:36 AM
And what you must now forget, he is named Tarquin (Tarkin) after all! I fail to see how he can let pass a Battle StaSnarl besides him.

He's actually named after Tarquin the Proud (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarquin_the_Proud), according to The Giant (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9527191&postcount=30).

3SecondCultist
2011-12-09, 09:41 AM
1) That being said... I think we're overlooking a big hint here. In comic #819 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0819.html), panel 4, Malack asks Tarquin if he sent Elan's team together because he believes they will be able to catch Nale. Tarquin distracts him (and us) by focusing the attention on the fact that Nale didn't leave the building. What I find more interesting, though, is that he went to all this length to put the party together and help Elan, while knowing that he wasn't going to find Nale over there. To me, that means that, despite what Roy might think, he's not completely oblivious to the Gate/Snarl situation (and he'd be a fool not to wonder about what could be so important for Elan, Nale and Draketooth). How much he knows is hard to determine, but sure he knows more than he shows.

I would have to agree with this. As Tarquin has demonstrated time and again, he has a dangerous amount of knowledge on current events. It would not be a stretch to say that he knew the LG was in his empire pretty much since they arrived, either.

Morquard
2011-12-09, 09:48 AM
1) That being said... I think we're overlooking a big hint here. In comic #819 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0819.html), panel 4, Malack asks Tarquin if he sent Elan's team together because he believes they will be able to catch Nale. Tarquin distracts him (and us) by focusing the attention on the fact that Nale didn't leave the building. What I find more interesting, though, is that he went to all this length to put the party together and help Elan, while knowing that he wasn't going to find Nale over there. To me, that means that, despite what Roy might think, he's not completely oblivious to the Gate/Snarl situation (and he'd be a fool not to wonder about what could be so important for Elan, Nale and Draketooth). How much he knows is hard to determine, but sure he knows more than he shows.
Tarquin does not help Elan because he thinks Elan will find/kill/capture Nale. When he agreed to help everyone thought Nale was dead, remember?

#762 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0762.html) Tarquin explains why he's helping Elan. He knows he's on a quest against a world-threatening evil, and its in his own best interesst that that evil (aka Xykon) is stopped.

But yes, that does not mean he doesn't know about it. But the fact he put the OotS back together isn't a clue that he does.

The fact however that he has a Ring of True Seeing... wouldn't that mean he should have pierced Z's illusion and Sabine's shapeshifting and probably Nale being invisible/shapeshifted/illusioned a long time ago?

Ancalagon
2011-12-09, 10:14 AM
Yes, Nale getting captured is the premise for this speculations.

Raistlin82, you are raising a few good points, especially as it's likely Tarquin already knows more than he lets us/everyone believe.

That said, it seems very well within the trope if the carpet had a tracking device attached to have the hereos lead Tarqu/kin to the rebel base actual location of the gate. Even if we leave the Star-Wars-Stupidity aside, it's making perfect sense.

What is also interesting to consider: Everything Tarquin has told the Order from Nale's assumed escape to his discovery was said with the knowledge Nale was listening!

Jay R
2011-12-09, 10:27 AM
Let's assume Nale does get captured. Anything else would seem awkward, why should Nale escape now?

Because Tarquin thinks the evil twin should be defeated by the good twin. He would not defeat somebody else's nemesis. Procedure is important.


The fact however that he has a Ring of True Seeing... wouldn't that mean he should have pierced Z's illusion and Sabine's shapeshifting and probably Nale being invisible/shapeshifted/illusioned a long time ago?

Yes, of course. But as we've just seen, just because he knows something doesn't mean he talks about it.

Tarquin runs his life by the two great secrets of success:
1. Don't reveal all you know.

Ancalagon
2011-12-09, 10:43 AM
Because Tarquin thinks the evil twin should be defeated by the good twin. He would not defeat somebody else's nemesis. Procedure is important.

I think "winning is important" to him. In the end, it only matters what benefits him most - and Tarquin already has his Big Story with Elan.


Tarquin runs his life by the two great secrets of success:
1. Don't reveal all you know.

I think that's an actually pretty good summary of how Tarquin runs.

Shhalahr Windrider
2011-12-09, 11:31 AM
The fact however that he has a Ring of True Seeing... wouldn't that mean he should have pierced Z's illusion and Sabine's shapeshifting and probably Nale being invisible/shapeshifted/illusioned a long time ago?
Yeah.

So that would mean that Tarquin knew Nale had infiltrated his inner circle, but for some reason, waited to call him out. And this would all be before he met Elan. So whatever reason Tarquin had to let Nale and company run around had nothing to do with that. Though I suppose it could be he just had a hunch he would get more useful information if he let Nale’s plot play out for a while.

Morty
2011-12-09, 11:51 AM
Apart from what has already been said, I think Tarquin enjoys reminding Nale of his insignificance and generally trying to harp on his massive ego a bit. Nothing infuriates Nale more than knowing his enemy doesn't consider him important enough to immediately apprehend.

Occasional Sage
2011-12-09, 12:14 PM
Tarquin runs his life by the two great secrets of success:
1. Don't reveal all you know.


I like that the second secret is too secret to reveal.

Sky_Schemer
2011-12-09, 12:33 PM
The fact however that he has a Ring of True Seeing... wouldn't that mean he should have pierced Z's illusion and Sabine's shapeshifting and probably Nale being invisible/shapeshifted/illusioned a long time ago?

Does Tarquin know who Z is? See #725 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0725.html) panel 7. I am sure Tarquin can put 2 + 2 together, but the first time he saw Z he just saw an elf in disguise. Which I am sure was curious, but at the time there was no reason to make a connection to Nale.

Gift Jeraff
2011-12-09, 12:48 PM
Does Tarquin know who Z is? See #725 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0725.html) panel 7. I am sure Tarquin can put 2 + 2 together, but the first time he saw Z he just saw an elf in disguise. Which I am sure was curious, but at the time there was no reason to make a connection to Nale.He knows an elven wizard is an associate of Nale (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0715.html), and if he's been seeing invisible Nale for the past 10 months, he may have been able to make the connection fairly early on.

Ancalagon
2011-12-09, 12:54 PM
Also note he automatically connects any high-level-adventurers who show up in his empire at roughly the same time until he has reason to believe they do not work with each other. So yes, it's very likely he has connected Sabine (who he probaly knows!) with Zz'dtri and Nale.

My guess is he did not know where Nale was exactly (as Nale was literally hiding and not just "invisible in the palace") so he waited for him to make his move and show himself while trying to figure out what Sabine/Thog/Zz'dtri were doing (and note he had Thog picked from the streets and tried to dispose of him in the arena).

Shhalahr Windrider
2011-12-09, 12:56 PM
Apart from what has already been said, I think Tarquin enjoys reminding Nale of his insignificance and generally trying to harp on his massive ego a bit. Nothing infuriates Nale more than knowing his enemy doesn't consider him important enough to immediately apprehend.
I could definitely see this. And now I am even hoping that that was at least partially the case. :smallbiggrin:

Dr. Gamera
2011-12-09, 02:08 PM
So yes, it's very likely he has connected Sabine (who he probaly knows!) with Zz'dtri and Nale.

Tarquin was in a battle scene with Nale and Sabine (and Thog and Yikyik) in panel seven of #725, The Significantly-More-Secret Origin of Tarquin and Nale (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0725.html).

Morty
2011-12-09, 02:52 PM
I could definitely see this. And now I am even hoping that that was at least partially the case. :smallbiggrin:

So am I. Nale could use such treatment. Mind you, it's unlikely to actually affect him, as he's exceptionally good at ignoring things that don't fit with his inflated opinion of himself.

Shhalahr Windrider
2011-12-09, 02:53 PM
So am I. Nale could use such treatment. Mind you, it's unlikely to actually affect him, as he's exceptionally good at ignoring things that don't fit with his inflated opinion of himself.
Which makes it all the more fun, ‘cause you can do it over and over and over without causing any serious damage. :smalltongue:

Laws of Chaos
2011-12-09, 03:13 PM
As seen time and time again, Tarquin knows far more than he lets on. I find it much easier to assume that he knows.

I'm sure he knows about Ian and Haley's relationship, and who he is.

I'm positive he knows about the gates, as well as having his own agenda for them, or at least the one in his area. Why else go through all the trouble of controlling a desert?

There seems to be little that he does not know, and what he does not know he tends to find out quickly. The true genius behind him is his ability to not show what he knows until the perfect time.

Also, I do not think he will kill Nale, he's still his son. I dont see him stopping Malak, but he wont do it either, unless he has more plans for him.

Reprimand
2011-12-09, 03:17 PM
I sense a torture interrogation scene coming up.

Albino lizardfolk gets his revenge!!!

Warmage
2011-12-09, 03:23 PM
I sense a torture interrogation scene coming up.

Albino lizardfolk gets his revenge!!!

I see the torture being merely insulting his planning skills. Eventually, Nale's ego gets the better of him and he spills all his plans so everyone can hear how great they are. Then he spills everything he knows to show you that he knows more than you. Easiest interrogation ever. We already have precedent of something similar working (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0397.html).

Shhalahr Windrider
2011-12-09, 03:24 PM
Why else go through all the trouble of controlling a desert?
Power, maybe a bit of prestige, a few other fringe benefits, and, above all, the chance to become a legendary villain in one of the greatest, most epic, stories of good versus evil ever told (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0763.html)?

Reprimand
2011-12-09, 05:17 PM
I see the torture being merely insulting his planning skills. Eventually, Nale's ego gets the better of him and he spills all his plans so everyone can hear how great they are. Then he spills everything he knows to show you that he knows more than you. Easiest interrogation ever. We already have precedent of something similar working (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0397.html).

Good point, but Nale isn't incapable of learning. He might not fall for the same trick twice!

Then again we are talking about Tarquin... yeah okay you're right.

Tarquin > Nale

Forikroder
2011-12-09, 08:00 PM
Tarwuin wouldnt want the snarl for the same reason he doesnt want the entire continent, the more powerful you are the more enemies hes perfectly fine with taking his share of the continent and living like a gid until Elan puts a rapier through him

hes more likely to try and destroy the gates to make sure noone uses it agaisnt him (not knowing about the whole "destroy the universe" part

Vahhn
2011-12-09, 11:23 PM
Man, first time posting in anything other then the games forum but Tarquin is worth it.

My understanding of Tarquin is about his priorities. Sure he is a freaking evil bastard, but he is also above the alignment concepts. What does this mean to me? i think his priority is pretty clear. Making his name, AND that of his family great, remembered for all the generations is bigger then being evil.

He is educating his both sons (by showing his ruthless evil bastard love for them) on how to be great. And he won't accept any less than greater then him to topple him.

He beat Elan and Nale in their own game, but the way he lectures shows to me his desire for them to come back stronger - sure you can be epic if you are the evil tyrant bastard of a continent. But being the epic evil tyrant, which is then succeeded by any of his sons - who did not take away his empire by hereditary but by their own awesome power and then have their own epic fight... I can imagine his large smile in whatever hell he ends up in.

rbetieh
2011-12-10, 12:08 AM
He is educating his both sons (by showing his ruthless evil bastard love for them) on how to be great. And he won't accept any less than greater then him to topple him.


Something about this doesn't sit well with me. If this is about succession he knows Nale would never share power, which means that if Elan takes the throne, he will have 10000000 assasins on his doorstep no matter how good he is. If Nale takes the throne, Elan will try to liberate the people. I think Tarquin has to understand that he has to pick sides if he is preparing for familiar succession.

I still like to think that he might end up making Roy his successor. One, it's the kind of happy ending Elan actually dreams about, and two by now it must be clear to Tarquin that Elan is a pretty dim bulb. But certainly Nale still has to go, I think the moment Elan stepped into EoB, any lingering desire to help Nale was probably lost.

GSFB
2011-12-10, 01:22 AM
Regarding the ring of true seeing:

We have no reason to believe Tarquin has already seen Nale, Sabine or Drow with it before now. Here is why:

1) We don't know that he even had it on before now. We do know he has on a ring of regeneration, that only leaves room for one other ring. He may have several he keeps with him and swaps them out as necessary. He may have been wearing, oh, I don't know, a ring of protection or a ring of +6 to Charisma on his second hand - but with knowledge that Nale is on the loose, and presumably the known shape-shifter Sabine as well, he may have JUST NOW put the true seeing ring on.

2) Even if he had been wearing the ring at other times, he wasn't necessarily wearing it when any of the other characters were within the effective radius.

3) Even if he was wearing it when they were within radius, he could have failed his spot check.

Jaros
2011-12-10, 07:48 AM
Something about this doesn't sit well with me. If this is about succession he knows Nale would never share power, which means that if Elan takes the throne, he will have 10000000 assasins on his doorstep no matter how good he is. If Nale takes the throne, Elan will try to liberate the people. I think Tarquin has to understand that he has to pick sides if he is preparing for familiar succession.

That doesn't necessarily make it about usccession as in the-next-ruler, but about who he would want to be defeated by (in Elan's case, at least)

Shhalahr Windrider
2011-12-10, 08:59 AM
1) We don't know that he even had it on before now. We do know he has on a ring of regeneration, that only leaves room for one other ring. He may have several he keeps with him and swaps them out as necessary. He may have been wearing, oh, I don't know, a ring of protection or a ring of +6 to Charisma on his second hand - but with knowledge that Nale is on the loose, and presumably the known shape-shifter Sabine as well, he may have JUST NOW put the true seeing ring on.
A ring of true seeing, is even more useful than a ring of regeneration when you are a tyrant in a kingdom as full of intrigue as the Empire of Blood. Especially when you actively foster that intrigue and therefore have no excuse to be ignorant that someone may be trying to infiltrate your home on any given day. To not use the [i]ring of true seeing[i] as a default ring would be uncharacteristically stupid of Tarquin.

(( True seeing range comment redacted ))


3) Even if he was wearing it when they were within radius, he could have failed his spot check.
He would only have to make a Spot check if the character was actively hiding. Kinda hard to disguise yourself as an elven diplomat if you are always taking cover behind the nearest curtain whenever the guy you are supposed to be making diplomacy with shows up.

Shale
2011-12-10, 09:08 AM
Nale may very well have not sent any of his cohorts but Zz'ditri and Yukyuk into populated areas of the palace for exactly those reasons. Even if someone did see through whatever disguises they might have been using, Tarquin still wouldn't connect them to Nale. A Drow masquerading as a forest elf could have many, many explanations just within the realm of elven politics.

Also, per the SRD, "The range of true seeing conferred is 120 feet."

zimmerwald1915
2011-12-10, 09:42 AM
If we are willing to accept the information given on the Wanted poster as an accurate representation of what Tarquin knew about the Linear Guild's makeup at the time of their defeat and flight, the theory that he wouldn't recognize Zz'dtri's true form gains some support. According to the Wanted poster, Zz'dtri's "gender and subtype [are] unknown. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0715.html)" It is certainly plausible that Zz'dtri went around under a glamer at all times in the EoB, and that Tarquin was able to identify it as such without piercing it. He only got the Ring of True Seeing a year after the Linear Guild fled.

Personally I don't think the Wanted poster is an accurate representation of what Tarquin knew about the Linear Guild's makeup at the time of their flight, still less an accurate representation of what he knew about their makeup at the beginning of this arc. But that's just my feeling.

veti
2011-12-11, 05:34 PM
My understanding of Tarquin is about his priorities. Sure he is a freaking evil bastard, but he is also above the alignment concepts. What does this mean to me? i think his priority is pretty clear. Making his name, AND that of his family great, remembered for all the generations is bigger then being evil.

He thinks, or he says he thinks, he's "above" alignment. In fact his every action suggests he's more deeply entrenched in his alignment than almost anyone. He goes out of his way to be evil even when there's no real gain in it. (Seriously, phoenix liver pate (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0744.html)?)


He is educating his both sons (by showing his ruthless evil bastard love for them) on how to be great. And he won't accept any less than greater then him to topple him.

You know, it really worries me how many people see Tarquin showing "love" for his sons. "He won't accept any less than greater than him to topple him" - another way of saying that is "he'll be defeated when, and only when, he has no chance of winning". Doesn't seem much of a concession to me.

Personally, I think he's pulling this "fair play" style so that, when one of them does get the drop on him (which is bound to happen eventually, because of too many tropes to count), he can count on them to play by the same rulebook.

It'll be very interesting to see how he handles Nale. On the one hand I find it hard to imagine a recurring villain meeting his end at the hands of someone other than the heroes; but on the other hand, just how would he protect Nale from Malack at this point? I would probably try to talk Malack into keeping him alive to torture, but Malack's deity makes that a tough argument to make.

Ancalagon
2011-12-12, 12:20 PM
Nale acted very stupid just now: Tarquin did not promise he would not kill (torture, capture, freeze, cripple, ...) him for getting told about whatever Nale knows about.

D'uh, utter Beginner's mistake... good luck Tarquin thinks it's smarter to send you after the Order than to still let Malack kill you.

pendell
2011-12-12, 12:31 PM
1. What's Tarquin to do once he has learned about the gates? At this point I very much doubt he will not capture Nale and learn from him what he knows (at least a twisted version of that)?


Assist the Order to destroy them , or close them forever.

Tarquin's motivation is his own personal glory and legend. The Gates offer him, as effective ruler of the continent together with his conspiring friends, no special military advantage above and beyond what he already has. Balancing the gain of nothing he doesn't already have with the real possibility that the world will be destroyed, the gate falls on the "liability" side of the equation.

Tarquin is rational. I don't see him going for a mad scheme involving a god-killing abomination. Not when careful planning and manipulation have already given him all the wealth and power he desires. As he started, so he will continue.

So the Gate is of no value to Tarquin's plans. However, it DOES represent a potential danger to himself and his plans in the hands of less-rational psychopaths, scenery-chewing villains, misguided heroes, or religious madmen like Redcloak.

Therefore, the gate's value to Tarquin is negative. There is no value to him controlling it himself. There is great value in denying it to others.

Therefore his most logical course of action is to ensure that the Gate remains secure or destroyed. Having the Gate fall into the hands of Nale or Xykon would be a disaster for him.



2. What is he going to do with Nale once he has that knowledge? Is Nale getting killed? And if not, what's going to happen with Malack (who will not be standing silently while Tarquin releases Nale)?


Set him loose to act as a cats-paw. Nale is his flesh and blood. Besides, Tarquin strikes me as a man who will not kill an enemy if he can make use of him. So the most likely thing is to feed him up with false information, permit him to "escape", then allow Nale to be his usual self. Somehow it will play into his hands.



PS: Let's not what Sabine will do in case Nale is dead until we know Nale is actually dead. ;)
She might attempt to free him, though.


Sabine appears to have instructions to assist Nale at all costs. Therefore, she will act to free or set him at liberty, than follow his orders.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Joerg
2011-12-12, 01:27 PM
Nale acted very stupid just now: Tarquin did not promise he would not kill (torture, capture, freeze, cripple, ...) him for getting told about whatever Nale knows about.

At this point, Nale doesn't have anything to bargain with. He's totally in Tarquins hands, there's no way he could bring his father to promise anything. If he doesn't talk, Tarquin will simply torture him.

Gift Jeraff
2011-12-12, 01:42 PM
I can see Tarquin "assisting" the Linear Guild, similar to how he assisted the Order. And then an exchange like this:

:nale: Why should I trust you?
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Tarquin.png It doesn't matter if I actually plan on ruling the multiverse with you or if I plan on selling you out to your brother. Or if I end up backstabbing both of you. Or if I just want to give Elan an entertaining challenge that will prepare him for his inevitable defeat over me. The point is you can either accept my offer and try to betray me at a later date, or die a painful and, most importantly for you, humiliating death at the hands of an angry cleric of Death. The choice is yours.

Ancalagon
2011-12-12, 02:30 PM
At this point, Nale doesn't have anything to bargain with. He's totally in Tarquins hands, there's no way he could bring his father to promise anything. If he doesn't talk, Tarquin will simply torture him.

He could at least have tried to save his life.

SPoD
2011-12-12, 08:53 PM
Tarquin's promises are less than worthless, and Nale would know that. If Nale had elicited such a pledge, it would only lead him to a false sense of reassurance before Tarquin decided to exploit whatever loophole he could to break it and kill Nale.