PC's with a deathwish...

[00dlez]

I have a good amount of DM experience in table top games, but I've recently (about 2 months ago) started DMing a PbP game for the first time. I am not looking for DM 101 advice on how to handle the situation, rather, advice from veteran PbP players/DMs... hence why GITP might be a good resource.

Short Version: How do you handle unplanned PC capture in a PbP game, and would you recommend taking steps to avoid it?

Much longer version:
It's a basic dungeon crawl, 6 3rd level PCs, plus a wolf animal companion and a rat familiar. The PCs have been through 4, technically 5, encounters on their first day. This included a mini-boss fight with a Gnoll leader which they handled quite well thanks to a Druid summoned bear. After the boss fight they looted the treasure horde, but instead of gold and magic items, they found a wealth of information instead, mostly in the form of books and journals. They spent a good bit of time reading over the texts and learned that, if today was a normal day at the Gnoll Fort, that 2 patrols of Gnolls would be returning to the Fort in the next hour, give or take, lead by some Gnoll Lieutenants.

They are currently in a room with only 1 exit and a trail of carnage leading right to that exit. They have elected to close the door, kick off their shoes and continue reading over the texts for 8 more hours, then taking an 8 hour rest. During that time, this is what would happen if this were a table top game where taking time off the main plot was a welcomed diversion (versus PbP where sticking to the story line, though not railroading of course, is key).

Hour by Hour time line:
0: First Gnoll Patrol returns, sees dead gnolls and investigates, sending 1 of their number to an outpost 2 hours away
.5: Second Patrol returns, does like wise. There are now 8 Gnolls and 2 Lieutenants (Ranger 2, Flind Gnolls), with the PCs cornered, if the PCs even know they are there.
4: First outpost returns, now 11 gnolls
4.5: 14 gnolls
6: 17 gnolls
6.5: 20 gnolls

and so on. Assuming the PCs don't come out, there will be 32 gnolls and 2 lieutenants waiting in a 10' wide hallway for the PCs to rub the little sleepies out of their weary adventurer eyes come morning and emerge from their safe room.

That's what should happen, but I'm willing to put on my little kid gloves and have them captured rather than slaughtered wholesale. It will change the storyline a bit but I can work around it, but it seems like this turning point could derail a PbP easily... Thoughts?

Side note: animal companions and familiars are not taken as prisoner by starving (literally) gnolls and the PCs won't have the opportunity to recover these pets for months IRL... problem?

[Crossblade]

Why wouldn't the gnolls try to bash down the door? If not at hour 4, then at hour 4.5?

[Metahuman1]

My suggestion, let the PC's get "rescued." by "More seasoned." (Higher level.) characters, and then as payment they have to go do some missions for the higher level characters, preferably unpleasant one's so that they'll learn not to rely on a free bail out, before they ultimately end up back on the plot line.

[00dlez]

Why wouldn't the gnolls try to bash down the door? If not at hour 4, then at hour 4.5?
15 dead gnoll corpses and their dead leaders body still lay outside the room's door, apparently easily defeated by whatever attacked their Fort. Moreover, I've made it clear that these gnolls, or at least their leadership, are more intelligent than average.
Why bash down the door when you can hold a defensive line until the rest of your hoard arrives?


My suggestion, let the PC's get "rescued." by "More seasoned." (Higher level.) characters, and then as payment they have to go do some missions for the higher level characters, preferably unpleasant one's so that they'll learn not to rely on a free bail out, before they ultimately end up back on the plot line.
Essentially, there isn't anyone else to rescue them.

I'll spare the full campaign details, but the dungeon is sealed off from the outside world entirely and the Gnolls control the center of a massive labyrinth in which they are the main power force. There are 2 other major groups that would like to see the Gnolls fall, but as the PCs learned in the texts they have read, neither group would attempt an attack on the Gnoll's holdings at the present time.



Again, I'm not looking for general DM advice, I'm wondering if anyone has handled this in a PbP game and could give me some insight as to how it played out, or tips on handling it.

[CTrees]

Gnolls know something powerful is in that room, and that there's only one exit. Also, gnoll leader is more intelligent than average.

For all the first arriving patrol knows, the second patrol has already been killed. They can't count on backup. This is a fort? After the first patrol investigates and sees what's going on, have them start a fire. Obviously the threat is too dangerous to attack head-on, so have a fire draw the enemy out of the room (hopefully at least taking some damage), while they prepare an ambush around the nearest corner of the path the PCs wouuld have to take to flee. This keeps the odds non-excessive, forces the party to move quickly, and maybe makes for an exciting fight. If it's a cave or done with stone walls, you can still start a fire in the hallway leading to the party's room, in order to try to smoke them out.

[Geigan]

Maybe the particular gnoll in charge of this group really didn't like the gnoll leader that they killed. Maybe he's willing to look the other way for a price. If that price is a job that he wants them to do for him(perhaps helping him overthrow the rest of the gnolls and install him as leader?), then you have your next quest hook right there. A bit tangential, but it's a possibility.

[Diefje]

Why is there no secret escape passage? If the gnolls can just starve them out, then so could anyone else starve out the gnolls that were inside. Forts quite commonly had or made secret passages to survive prolonged sieges.

Roll Listen checks. If they closed the door then the gnoll doesn't really know instantly if there's still people there and he might bang around a bit looking to see what happened. The first scout could be caught in time. Later on when a bunch of them set up, they will be making some ruckus. They need some logistics (food and water), they'll need to set up shifts and sleep themselves, so if they set up close the party could hear them. If they set up out of earshot, they might have a chance to slip by (not necessarily unnoticed, but they could make a run for it).

If you really do want them to get captured, they'll probably be transported somewhere else. Who knows what could happen during transport. Ambush by the other faction, big monster attack, the party could pick a lock or undo their bonds themselves.

[Metahuman1]

15 dead gnoll corpses and their dead leaders body still lay outside the room's door, apparently easily defeated by whatever attacked their Fort. Moreover, I've made it clear that these gnolls, or at least their leadership, are more intelligent than average.
Why bash down the door when you can hold a defensive line until the rest of your hoard arrives?


Essentially, there isn't anyone else to rescue them.

I'll spare the full campaign details, but the dungeon is sealed off from the outside world entirely and the Gnolls control the center of a massive labyrinth in which they are the main power force. There are 2 other major groups that would like to see the Gnolls fall, but as the PCs learned in the texts they have read, neither group would attempt an attack on the Gnoll's holdings at the present time.



Again, I'm not looking for general DM advice, I'm wondering if anyone has handled this in a PbP game and could give me some insight as to how it played out, or tips on handling it.

That was PbP advice. Trust me, your Druid/Pally/Wizard is likely gonna drop out if they lose there Animal Companion/Mount/Familiar and have to wait a month real time to get it back.

[teslas]

I'd politely give them a DM "are you guys sure you'd like to do that?" Don't give them any hints why, just give them an idea that you've already supplied information that they should maybe take into account, or go back and find if they may have missed it. If they choose to continue with their plan, play it out exactly as the gnolls would play it out. I believe they would most likely group up their forces as best they could and wait for the party to exit, as seeing that many of their dead comrades should have them at least partly spooked.

If/when the party dies or mostly dies, politely, very politely, tell them why in as few words as you accurately can. Concisely copy/paste any sections of information that you supplied them that you feel they did not take into account.

Some players are simply used to DMs that hold their hands and lead them on safe little adventures where there's never any risk of death. If this isn't your style, then don't do it that way. I have had groups of PCs that possessed basically no fear of death (I have a group now, actually, that have two people re-rolling because of this). It is annoying as a DM when your players make not one, but several blatantly horrible and nigh-suicidal decisions to paint themselves into an inescapable corner.

As far as your responsibilities go, make sure you've given them ample ingame information. Make sure your description of that information is accurate and as well-written as you possibly can. And I'll say it again, a little non-descriptive meta-game hint can be entirely appropriate in the interest of having fun and saving a little bit of time--especially on a PbP.

[Toliudar]

Alternately, make the gnolls cowards. The first patrol returns, finds the fort sacked, their colleagues slaughtered and - apparently - the people who did it quietly ensconced in an inner chamber. The PC's have an opportunity with listen checks to overhear a discussion outside, in which the gnolls decide to ALL go to this second outpost to get reinforcements, rather than hang around and be slaughtered by these invaders if they come out. Then the PC's have new information as the basis for which to amend their plans to rest up there in the fort before the second patrol arrives.

[00dlez]

Alternately, make the gnolls cowards. The first patrol returns, finds the fort sacked, their colleagues slaughtered and - apparently - the people who did it quietly ensconced in an inner chamber. The PC's have an opportunity with listen checks to overhear a discussion outside, in which the gnolls decide to ALL go to this second outpost to get reinforcements, rather than hang around and be slaughtered by these invaders if they come out. Then the PC's have new information as the basis for which to amend their plans to rest up there in the fort before the second patrol arrives.

The PCs have already failed their listen checks to hear the first patrol investigating down the hall from their door :smallannoyed:



I have a tentative plan where the Gnoll's are willing to broker a deal with the PC's for their safety. The wolf and rat however... Heh, they can keep their pets or they can keep their current food supplies, PC's choice :cool: That should be sufficient punishment to get them out of this pickle.

[Chauncymancer]

If you haven't made anything clear to the contrary, there is often an implicit understanding among PC's that class feature allies such as familiars and animal companions wont be killed in any situation that doesn't threaten TPK.
If you aren't willing to kill those characters in this situation, I wouldn't eat fluffy either.

[Suichimo]

Common war tactics. You have a rather large group of Gnolls trying to get at a small group through a 10 foot corridor. Waves of attacks, bottle necking, and all that. Let your fighter/melee dude show off his training.

P.S. I've never been a DM. But as a player I've found that deathwishes are usually fun and you probably have a better chance of survival than you think.

[Tyndmyr]

Generally, I'll run one prison session, in which they can escape or connive to be released. You can have rather a lot of fun with this, all things considered.

If they make a habit of being captured by the same guys, eventually they'll be executed, most likely. Some officer will see them as a problem, and demand they be executed at dawn.

Sufficiently reckless play will always lead to death, but you want some advance notice first.

[00dlez]

Generally, I'll run one prison session, in which they can escape or connive to be released. You can have rather a lot of fun with this, all things considered.

If they make a habit of being captured by the same guys, eventually they'll be executed, most likely. Some officer will see them as a problem, and demand they be executed at dawn.

Sufficiently reckless play will always lead to death, but you want some advance notice first.

That's the difference between PbP and TT, I can't just spend a fun session on a side-quest prison escape, that could take 2-3 months or more IRL away from the story.

"Hoorah! We've escaped... what were we doing again?"


Common war tactics. You have a rather large group of Gnolls trying to get at a small group through a 10 foot corridor. Waves of attacks, bottle necking, and all that. Let your fighter/melee dude show off his training.
If the party was rested, I'd likely have not posted and let them take a crack at it. They've been through 4 encounters today, though and while they are topped off on HP, they are down to probably 20% or less of combat useful spells (including healing), and their best shots are all expended. If I was a betting man, and I am, I would say anything over 12 gnolls would TPK, even in a bottleneck.

[teslas]

That and the gnolls would probably not be stupid enough to fight in a 10' hallway where their numbers can't give them the advantage--especially after knowing full well the things inside are capable of killing them with 1:1 odds.

[killem2]

the druid can't shape into a small rodent and get away for help?

[00dlez]

the druid can't shape into a small rodent and get away for help?
Not at this level.

Level 3 party: Druid, Duskblade, 2 Clerics, a rogue/swashbuckler, and a wizard

Again, they are fine on HP (though the wizard has a max of 9...), but in terms of spells/abilities they are running low

[Snowbluff]

You... uh... don't have to captured them? In my games, gnolls are the pinnacle of stupid. If they were really so starving, why didn't cannibalize the corpses, thinking that their emaciated forms could not take on what has been killing these gnolls, and run?

If you really don't want unplanned PC capture to happen don't do it. For the sames reasons you don't send of team of fighters versus 100 rust monsters. IF the PC's are taking things slowly and cautiously, why would you punish that?

[Calanon]

Why not just have the Druid wild shape into a bear? Then have the barbarian throw him through the wall, yeah He'll take alot of damage but thats what Clerics are for :smallbiggrin:

[Aegis013]

You... uh... don't have to captured them? In my games, gnolls are the pinnacle of stupid. If they were really so starving, why didn't cannibalize the corpses, thinking that their emaciated forms could not take on what has been killing these gnolls, and run?

If you really don't want unplanned PC capture to happen don't do it. For the sames reasons you don't send of team of fighters versus 100 rust monsters. IF the PC's are taking things slowly and cautiously, why would you punish that?

Resting in an enemy encampment when you have info that patrols are coming back? That's not cautious, it's brazen.


Why not just have the Druid wild shape into a bear? Then have the barbarian throw him through the wall, yeah He'll take alot of damage but thats what Clerics are for :smallbiggrin:

Level 3, the Druid won't have wildshape yet.

[00dlez]

Originally Posted by Snowbluff
You... uh... don't have to captured them? In my games, gnolls are the pinnacle of stupid. If they were really so starving, why didn't cannibalize the corpses, thinking that their emaciated forms could not take on what has been killing these gnolls, and run?

If you really don't want unplanned PC capture to happen don't do it. For the sames reasons you don't send of team of fighters versus 100 rust monsters. IF the PC's are taking things slowly and cautiously, why would you punish that?

Because these are not Gnoll's from your game, they are Gnoll's from my game. They are not super intelligent, but certainly above average. Their leader was highly intelligent before he was cleaved in twain by a certain duskblade's flame encased sword... Both counts have been evident to the on multiple occasions, including me saying things like "Shieldsplitter appears to have been one of the most intelligent Gnoll's you have ever encountered."

[kudosmog]

I'm a fan of if it makes sense in game, it should happen in game.

So whatever you think the Gnolls would do, is what they should do. The PC's made their decision.

You could always write up a list of different options for the Gnolls like:
1-40: gnolls run off to the outpost together to get reinforcements (let the party make listen checks again while the gnolls argue)
41-60: gnolls try to bargain with whatever is behind the door to let them live
61-80: gnolls wait for reinforcements to sufficently pummel whatever is behind the door
81-100: gnolls start a fire to smoke whatever is behind the door out

Then roll a d100 and see what happens.

And give the party listen checks again, hopefully they won't fail again and they'll hear the gnolls argue about what they want to do and ultimately decide upon.

It seems like you want to preserve the storyline but not kill the PC's when they make a bad decision like this. It's hard to do sometimes =P
I certainly wouldn't have thought that staying locked in a room in the center of a gnoll keep would be a good idea.
Then again, I've got more experience dealing with situations like that, so maybe its a better idea to force the players to start thinking of the possible consequences. Maybe you have to force that on them by making one pass their listen check?

[00dlez]

The current plan is to back the gnoll's down the hall (as many as are there when the PC's finally emerge from the room) to a T-intersection shaped thusly: _|_

PCs are at the dead end on the left, Gnolls take the center and right passage.
- PCs can get ranged to death from the gnolls who have cover down the long lower passage.
- PCs can try to rush and have to fight at the intersection on 2 sides
- PCs can shut the door and try to wait it out. Due to their large current food supplies thanks to bags of holding, ability to create water etc., this might actually work, but eventually they will have to fight either from the Gnoll's losing patience or attempting a breakout themselves.

Or the most likely option:
Broker a deal with the remaining Gnolls to do a story related quest.

The issue becomes how the gnolls and PCs handle the tense peace. After all, the Gnoll's recognize the party as a clear threat, and currently have them in a position where they could kill them (despite taking losses of their own)... I guess that's what RP and diplomacy checks are for.

[kudosmog]

Always good to have options as the DM. As you know, PC's pretty much never do what you expect them to lol.

Curious about the setting though. What's to keep the PC's from brokering a deal for their safety and then not turning their backs on the deal as soon as they walk out of the keep?

[Arbane]

If they do try to fight their way out, remember that some portion of the gnolls are going to be sleeping while the others are keeping watch. That might help the odds slightly. Of course, they'll wake up pretty quick once the fighting starts...

[Madara]

Maybe somewhere in the notes they are reading is the procedure for what the gnolls are supposed to do if they find a dead patrol. If you specifically give them that info, they might take the hint, or at least realize their mistake.

[Yahzi]

I would "discover" a secret exit. An ugly one. Like a hole in the ground that the gnolls were using for a latrine, but it leads to a fungus-infested cave just large enough for them to squeeze through but involving several hours of icky, disgusting yuck.

Then let them see the army of gnolls waiting outside.

[00dlez]

Always good to have options as the DM. As you know, PC's pretty much never do what you expect them to lol.

Curious about the setting though. What's to keep the PC's from brokering a deal for their safety and then not turning their backs on the deal as soon as they walk out of the keep?

How to describe this briefly...

Firstly, the party only knows that they must recover 5 souls stones, how they do this or what lies ahead they do not know.

The whole campaign is based around a connection between a pocket dimension and the material plane. Below a recently defeated evil wizard's tower lies an expansive labyrinth, which the party has been sealed into. They are currently at the center of this labyrinth, which is comprised of the Fort and a teleportation circle which can take them to various locations in the pocket dimension where they can recover the soul stones.
Branching off from this circle in a wagon wheel fashion are Gnoll outposts which comprise a perimeter. Beyond this is the rest of the labyrinth where the party will have to complete a few quests as well.

Once the gnolls stick them on the outside of the perimeter, they don't have to let them back in, and thus cutting them off from the teleportation circle and ultimately their ticket home.
The PCs would have to assault their way back, which they could do, but it would be very very hard, the outposts are almost impassable at this level.

[00dlez]

I would "discover" a secret exit. An ugly one. Like a hole in the ground that the gnolls were using for a latrine, but it leads to a fungus-infested cave just large enough for them to squeeze through but involving several hours of icky, disgusting yuck.

Then let them see the army of gnolls waiting outside.

They already scanned for secret doors and alternative exits before setting up shop for 8 hours to read

[Toliudar]

PCs are at the dead end on the left, Gnolls take the center and right passage.
- PCs can get ranged to death from the gnolls who have cover down the long lower passage.
- PCs can try to rush and have to fight at the intersection on 2 sides
- PCs can shut the door and try to wait it out. Due to their large current food supplies thanks to bags of holding, ability to create water etc., this might actually work, but eventually they will have to fight either from the Gnoll's losing patience or attempting a breakout themselves.

Or the most likely option:
Broker a deal with the remaining Gnolls to do a story related quest.

The issue becomes how the gnolls and PCs handle the tense peace. After all, the Gnoll's recognize the party as a clear threat, and currently have them in a position where they could kill them (despite taking losses of their own)... I guess that's what RP and diplomacy checks are for.

A solution that advances the plot - the gnolls initiating some kind of detente that ends with a story-related quest - does indeed seem like a great solution.

I'd point out that, if the PC's cut/woodshape/whatever a slit into their exit door, they ALSO have cover...and with a 3rd level druid, they also have access to flaming sphere to deal with those gnolls waiting around the corner. Obscuring mist so that the ranged attacks are shooting into the unknown. Summoned monsters that charge in before the players do to keep the front ranks busy. Does the wizard have web? Glitterdust? They might need to expend all of their resources for their day, but this is actually a winnable fight for the PC's, given the number of spellcasters they have, IF they know at the start that it's a fight that they're facing.

So, again, if you're willing to cut em a little slack, you could either have them get additional listen checks for all of the gnoll activity at the far end of the hall, or else have the gnolls form up after the 5 hour mark and yell out a call for parley.

[00dlez]

Maybe somewhere in the notes they are reading is the procedure for what the gnolls are supposed to do if they find a dead patrol. If you specifically give them that info, they might take the hint, or at least realize their mistake.

I can see it now... A cheesy HR video from 1989 "I Just got Back from Patrol and all the Fort Guards are Dead... What Next?!" *Cue terrible music* According to Gnoll Inc. policy, we recommend you...:biggrin:

[00dlez]

A solution that advances the plot - the gnolls initiating some kind of detente that ends with a story-related quest - does indeed seem like a great solution.

I'd point out that, if the PC's cut/woodshape/whatever a slit into their exit door, they ALSO have cover...and with a 3rd level druid, they also have access to flaming sphere to deal with those gnolls waiting around the corner. Obscuring mist so that the ranged attacks are shooting into the unknown. Summoned monsters that charge in before the players do to keep the front ranks busy. Does the wizard have web? Glitterdust? They might need to expend all of their resources for their day, but this is actually a winnable fight for the PC's, given the number of spellcasters they have, IF they know at the start that it's a fight that they're facing.

So, again, if you're willing to cut em a little slack, you could either have them get additional listen checks for all of the gnoll activity at the far end of the hall, or else have the gnolls form up after the 5 hour mark and yell out a call for parley.

Aye, I mentioned some where above that, fully rested, I think they could stumble through a fight and either survive or escape by the skin of their teeth.
It looks like right now that the PCs are going to continue to rest for an additional 16 hours (which they will have to wait all of before regaining spells), the gnolls will be at full strength in 10 hours and knocking on the door around 12 hours in, presuming that the PCs stay deaf, dumb and blind inside the room and nothing happens before then.