[3.5] Non-Combat Roles You Find Important

[DigoDragon]

My RP group is starting up a D&D 3.5 game and for once I'm not playing the role of the DM. :smallcool: Our players generally don't interact much with each other when we make characters. Often this means some overlap in abilities and at least one hole in the overall party skillset. Currently the party comprises of:

Dragonborn Half-orc Ranger (Going with the TWF tree)
Elf Duskblade (Going for Arcane Archer PrC)
Human Monk (Going Monk20 most likely)
Halfling Wizard (specialist Conjurer in debuffing/blasting)
Human Hexblade

I'm the only player left still building a character. From the above list, we seem to have plenty of combat roles (melee & ranged) and offensive magical support roles. We lack in the non-combative department, that is-- defensive magical support rolls (buffing, healing), dungeon skills (trapfinding, scouting, spotting), and social skills (bluffing, diplomacy, gathering intel).

So, I started thinking:
Of the remaining non-combat roles, which roles would you think are most important?


The DM running the game likes doing a fair balance of social RPing with combat, and he does own half the Grimtooth library so traps WILL happen. I was thinking a Rogue skillmonkey as that would amount to covering the RP half of the balance and provide a fair bit of scouting/trap disarmament.

So what are your thoughts? What non-combat roles do you think are important for a party?

If you need info on what books are available: we are using Core, the Complete series, PHB2, and Spell Compendium.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Cleric. Just cleric.

[Jopustopin]

You need a trapfinder and a cleric. Here is what I recommend:

Artificer or Kobold Cloistered (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVariantCloistere dCleric)Cleric with the Kobold Domain (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a);

See if your dungeon master will allow artificer. If you can't play a Cleric because of role playing reasons then see if he'll let you play as a Factotum (dungeonscape).

[gallagher]

cleric with the kobold domain, or you could always go with a bard with a rogue dip

[Big Fau]

You don't need a Cleric (healing is better done with items than with spells), but a Trapfinder is valuable (despite summoning spells being a decent replacement).

A Bard with Shape Soulmeld (Theft Gloves) and a few other feats devoted to finding traps could go a long way to helping the party.

[gallagher]

you might also consider being a spellthief. stealing spells will be a great way to help neutralize enemy casters

also, consider maybe playing a chameleon? its a fun way to stay relevant every in-game day

[Aegis013]

You don't need a Cleric (healing is better done with items than with spells), but a Trapfinder is valuable (despite summoning spells being a decent replacement).

A Bard with Shape Soulmeld (Theft Gloves) and a few other feats devoted to finding traps could go a long way to helping the party.

I think the cleric is more for buffing and filling the missing skill-monkey role than healing. Healing is just a secondary benefit.

[JackRackham]

You don't need a Cleric (healing is better done with items than with spells), but a Trapfinder is valuable (despite summoning spells being a decent replacement).

A Bard with Shape Soulmeld (Theft Gloves) and a few other feats devoted to finding traps could go a long way to helping the party.

IMO, a build/character/party should NEVER rely on items, because they are not a given. They can be taken away. Certain items may not exist. They could get sundered or shattered. Moreover, consumables eat in to one's WBL w/o heals after combat. Also, note that a cleric is all-around awesome and can change every spell remaining at the end of the day into a heal with little chance of negative consequences. Clerics get a lot of spells and they are generally prepared casters, meaning a couple will be useless anyway on a given day. There's no reason not to heal (out-of-combat) via spell with a cleric around and there's bo reason not to want a cleric around.

[Talionis]

IMO, a build/character/party should NEVER rely on items, because they are not a given. They can be taken away. Certain items may not exist. They could get sundered or shattered. Moreover, consumables eat in to one's WBL w/o heals after combat. Also, note that a cleric is all-around awesome and can change every spell remaining at the end of the day into a heal with little chance of negative consequences. Clerics get a lot of spells and they are generally prepared casters, meaning a couple will be useless anyway on a given day. There's no reason not to heal (out-of-combat) via spell with a cleric around and there's bo reason not to want a cleric around.

You do realize that Theft Gloves, Soul Meld isn't an item its more like a feat that makes an item only you can wear. And you can make it over and over.

[Big Fau]

IMO, a build/character/party should NEVER rely on items, because they are not a given. They can be taken away. Certain items may not exist. They could get sundered or shattered. Moreover, consumables eat in to one's WBL w/o heals after combat.

If the DM follows the WBL guidelines, then I have to disagree. Low-WBL games, I'll agree, but this system was built with the WBL being an assumed given (the CR system mentions this).

Besides, there are ways to heal that aren't item-based or spell-based (Shadowsun Ninja 1, for example, provides infinite out of combat healing, or emergency in-combat healing if built properly).

[Ifni]

What level are you starting at? In my experience there's a pretty hefty level-dependence in what roles are important. That said... trapfinding is going to be important, from your description. I wouldn't prioritize scouting; it's rarely a necessity and is very dangerous if you're not quite good enough. Spot and Listen are always good to have, but the penalty for not having them tends to be (in my experience) that you get ambushed a lot - and with sufficient strength in other areas, that isn't usually fatal to either the PCs or the adventure plot.

I've gotten a lot of good use out of Gather Information. Diplomacy and Bluff are strongly dependent on your GM: I never found Bluff as useful as it was advertised to be, and Diplomacy can be a gamebreaker or largely useless (depending on whether it's run according to RAW, the NPCs' actions depend only on what you actually say, or something in between).

You have four weapon-users, so a good buffer would be really nice to have: I'd rate this as first priority, above trapfinding. And the ability to break out emergency healing is also a good thing - in-combat-healing as a primary role is generally not a good idea (and at some levels, spending a standard action and/or a spell slot on it is pretty much never a good idea), but it's nice to have for emergencies.

I think the cleric-with-trapfinding suggestions are on the mark: that also provides you with a slew of nice restorative spells for fixing effects other than HP damage. I was going to suggest bard-with-trapfinding, because bard bonuses can be oh so very nice on people with lots of attacks (like, you know... archers, monks, two-weapon-fighters...), but you probably need another full-caster's utility spells more.

[Flickerdart]

Intimidate is the only non-combat role you need.

[Godskook]

The list as I see it:
-Knowledge Monkey: Usually divided among PCs.
-The sneak(spot/listen/hide/movesilently): Usually the rogue
-The trapmonkey: Usually the rogue
-The healer(HP,Stat,Level,Disease,Poison): Usually the cleric
-The utility caster(teleport,ropetrick,crafting,etc): Usually the wizard
-The party face(Cha skills + Sense Motive): Usually divided or neglected


Of those, you still need a healer, trapmonkey, and possibly a face(The wizard better be covering basic knowledges and utility casting, and the Ranger/Monk should have your sneak covered).

At low levels, some kind of kobold cleric with domains and cloistered will probably work best, but by about level 8 or so, A human rogue 1/druid 5/daggerspell shaper x will start being quite viable too, provided you have able learner to fix your skill list.

[A_S]

Intimidate is the only non-combat role you need.

Level 1 commoner: "Why am I opening this door again?"

Support PC: *glares menacingly "Just do it" 1d20+47

Level 1 commoner: "Yessir." *dies*

-----

I see what you mean.

*edit* No roller in this forum?!

[Big Fau]

*edit* No roller in this forum?!

Nope. They use Invisible Castle here.

[Phaederkiel]

I would advise to go changeling factotum. This has all the social skills you ever needed, trapfinding, the ability to dump all your inspiration points in a single big sneak attack should the occasion arise and later you can spend your inspiration points on getting actions.

Honestly this is the best skillmonkey / social guy you can hope for.

if wanted, you can go Changeling alternate Rogue 1 / factotum x, which gives you the ability to take 10 on a heap of social checks as well as
10+int mod x 4 skillpoints at lvl 1.

I went rogue 3 / factotum 7 (at the moment), but in hindsight the two extra lvl rogue (taken for the ability to sneak unsneakable things) seems not to be worth the delay of factotum abilities.

[Machinekng]

Maybe, Rouge 2/ Bard X?

That covers all of the noncombat roles you mentioned.

Healing/Buffing: Bard has the Cure series on its spell list, so all you need is a Wand for effective healing. As for buffing, that's the Bard's main shtick.

Dungeon Skills: With a Rouge dip, you have the skills you need, Trapfinding, and Evasion.

Social Skills: The Bard's other big shtick. Charm person, of course, always helps.

[nyarlathotep]

Maybe, Rouge 2/ Bard X?

That covers all of the noncombat roles you mentioned.

Healing/Buffing: Bard has the Cure series on its spell list, so all you need is a Wand for effective healing. As for buffing, that's the Bard's main shtick.

Dungeon Skills: With a Rouge dip, you have the skills you need, Trapfinding, and Evasion.

Social Skills: The Bard's other big shtick. Charm person, of course, always helps.

This board should autocorrect rouge to rogue.

[Coidzor]

This board should autocorrect rouge to rogue.

Agreed. It'd make makeup discussion more interesting too.:smallamused:


Our players generally don't interact much with each other when we make characters. Often this means some overlap in abilities and at least one hole in the overall party skillset.

Probably should work to rectify that so you don't end up with situations like these where one person is the odd man out and everyone else is pressuring him or her to pick up the slack that they created by not creating a character that was more of a team player themselves.


Currently the party comprises of:

Dragonborn Half-orc Ranger (Going with the TWF tree)
Elf Duskblade (Going for Arcane Archer PrC)
Human Monk (Going Monk20 most likely)
Halfling Wizard (specialist Conjurer in debuffing/blasting)
Human Hexblade


dungeon skills (trapfinding, scouting, spotting)

You have a monk and he isn't even covering scouting in the slightest? What exactly is he planning on contributing to the party then? :smallconfused:

For that matter, what is the Ranger contributing? :smallannoyed:

Your Ranger should give up the useless fiat trap of Track in exchange for the pointless pre-requisite trapfinding and pull some weight, unfortunately Dungeonscape is "required" for this simple substitution, so you might be forced to just suggest that he review his class skill list and 6+int class skills and spend them in a way that is conducive to the party's survival considering the hostility/sadism inherent in someone using Grimtooth material at all.


I'm the only player left still building a character. From the above list, we seem to have plenty of combat roles (melee & ranged) and offensive magical support roles. We lack in the non-combative department, that is-- defensive magical support rolls (buffing, healing), dungeon skills (trapfinding, scouting, spotting), and social skills (bluffing, diplomacy, gathering intel).

Hexblade should be able to cover some of the social skills to some extent. Unfortunately the school of magic that makes social skills superfluous was probably banned by the wizard, but if he's a good GOD at least he'll make that up to you. Ranger should be easily capable of scouting and spotting. Monk could potentially contribute some spotting and maybe some scouting if he didn't completely dump Int. I can't even recall how a Duskblade could/should contribute outside of combat, but I'm sure there's some way he's dropped the ball considering how long of a list you've given us. Probably could stand to add in some intimidate for some out of combat and in combat fun if he isn't already.

Really though, the Hexblade, Ranger, Duskblade, and Monk should really reconsider their build choices if they're forcing you to pick up all of that slack. The ranger can easily shift things around to pull his own weight, but the Hexblade and Monk are more problematic. Mostly because monks can't pull their own weight without being houseruled until they're unrecognizable.

So, a Cloistered Cleric seems the best way to cover that, since you get the class skills to at least partially make up for the rest of your group deliberately building so they can't influence the game beyond combat and you also get spells so that you are able to pull your own in a fight and help GOD shepherd the mundanes around.


So, I started thinking:
Of the remaining non-combat roles, which roles would you think are most important?

Support/Utility Casting then Sensory Input and Face skills for getting as much information as possible and for optimum plot progression(with requisite metagame deduction and finesse to make good use of them) then mundane mobility and exploration.


The DM running the game likes doing a fair balance of social RPing with combat, and he does own half the Grimtooth library so traps WILL happen.
...Oh dear. Are you sure the others know that? :smalleek: Because that's quite a bit of masochism if they refuse to take steps to protect themselves or object to the DM using that material and foist the responsibility onto you.


I was thinking a Rogue skillmonkey as that would amount to covering the RP half of the balance and provide a fair bit of scouting/trap disarmament.

If the DM's games are heavy RP and the rest of the group has set that side of themselves on fire, either you're going to get an unfair amount of responsibility and spotlight whenever talking is necessary or the DM has the plan to use player RPing ability instead of ingame skills. Or should have considered that solution. So check with him. And then doublecheck with all of them that they're ok with sitting on their hands, twiddling their thumbs whenever it's time to talk to someone because they'll be actively unhelpful if they try to interact with that sphere of the game as is if they still want to go through with that.


So what are your thoughts? What non-combat roles do you think are important for a party?

Revision of the skill system so that every player can make at least a base-line contribution to roleplaying out social interactions. Revision of the skill system so that one isn't pigeonholed into a "trapfinding" class in order to have the ability to interact with that portion of the game meaningfully.

Information gathering in one form or another is key with certain DMs, since actively looking for information either by asking people or looking around unlocks better options or at least allows the possibility for more interesting interaction with the world.

Manipulating NPCs similarly can lead to a lot more interesting possibilities and even lead to departing from what was planned in a way that leads to everyone having more fun and coming together to make the game better.

Some skills though are just essential for survival, like avoiding walking into traps or ambushes, such as the awareness skills and intelligent application of the search skill and trapfinding abilities.

[MukkTB]

Go Bard
Every character in the party will benefit from the combat bonus the bard gives. Even the conjurer because he is going to be summoning monsters that will benefit.
You can add flaming D6s to their attacks if you want.

You have cure light wounds on your spell list. That gives you the ability to use healstick wands and do emergency in combat healing if someone is about to snuff it.

You have the skill points to either fill in the dungeon crawling skill monkey role or pick up some party face skills.

Of course a full out cleric will be a stronger character.

[Darrin]

You have a monk and he isn't even covering scouting in the slightest? What exactly is he planning on contributing to the party then? :smallconfused:


"Monk" and "contributing to the party" are usually considered mutually exclusive around here. Although they may occasionally substitute for a pack animal in a pinch.

[IdleMuse]

To be honest, Bard sounds like it would help out and fit the niche you want to well. You could go Divine Bard for more healing and Cleric-ish spells if you think that's necessary, but take the Soulmeld mentioned above for help with the trapping front, and you get to be a social face for the party while simultaneously helping pretty much all of them out in combat.

[#Raptor]

You need a trapfinder and a cleric. Here is what I recommend:

Artificer or Kobold Cloistered (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVariantCloistere dCleric)Cleric with the Kobold Domain (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a);

See if your dungeon master will allow artificer. If you can't play a Cleric because of role playing reasons then see if he'll let you play as a Factotum (dungeonscape).

Add trickery (also a domain of Kurtulmak) to that Kobold Cloistered Cleric and you'll have both, trapfinding and social skills. (though admittedly, even without trickery a cleric is decent as a partyface if he has the skillpoints.)