What If OOTS used the Pathfinder system? [Archive]

Reprimand

2011-12-09, 03:09 PM

Roy would have more feats not to mentions actual class abilities!
Haley would have a bigger HD as would Elan (and bards have many more options than than downsides in PF now).
Heck even straight wiz/sor at least gets a d6 HD.
Belker would hate things more because he'd get more favored enemies, not to mention favored terrain, like his scene fighting Miko in a warehouse, etc, etc.

Thog would have many more advantages and be less stupid because of how half-orcs got changed around.
Nale would be screwed because multi-classers took a hard hit in pathfinder. Sabrine wouldn't have nearly as many advantages, not the least of which is outsider HD being lowered in pathfinder.

Tarquin would probably still be OP. End of line.

Liches aren't nearly as powerful in PF (d8 HD still with no con) and they aren't immune to nearly as much so he would be nerfed.

Ancalagon

2011-12-09, 04:45 PM

Liches aren't nearly as powerful in PF (d8 HD still with no con) and they aren't immune to nearly as much so he would be nerfed.

Really? That's an utter joke. 4.5 HPs on average - a 3.5 Wizard with Con 14 has that! ;)

Morty

2011-12-09, 04:48 PM

Most of differences between Pathfinder and 3.5 wouldn't matter in OoTS, where the rules apply only in broad strokes. So no, I don't think it would dramatically change the story at all.

hamishspence

2011-12-09, 05:00 PM

in the book commentaries (War & XPs, Don't Split The Party) I think it was mentioned that V's lack of access to conjuration was pretty important- because it prevented V from solving too many of the party's problems.

Blisstake

2011-12-09, 05:05 PM

Actually, Liches get to add their Charisma modifier to each hit die in PF, so Xykon could actually be more difficult.

Anyway, the only major change I can think of is that Vaarsuvius would be able to cast Teleport. And maybe Haley could actually get sneak attack damage on Xykon?

Aron Times

2011-12-09, 05:35 PM

zimmerwald1915

2011-12-09, 06:01 PM

Single-class sorcerers got a tremendous buff in Pathfinder, so Xykon would be much more powerful. According to the class and level geekery thread, he has at least 28 charisma, which is a +9 modifier, so he gets a minimum of 21d8+189 HP, for an average of 287 HP (max HP at level 1). In 3.5, he'd only have 21d12 HP, which is an average of 142 HP (max HP at level 1).

That's more than double his HP in 3.5!
And that's not even including nine more spells known and bloodline powers, discounting the power upgrades all Pathfinder characters get (feats, etc.). Speaking of which, any speculations on Pathfinder-Xykon's bloodline?

Aron Times

2011-12-09, 06:07 PM

Probably arcane bloodline, since it's the one with the least RP baggage.

Morty

2011-12-09, 06:14 PM

Be that as it may, relative class power has little effect on the storyline except for jokes.

Reprimand

2011-12-09, 06:36 PM

Dusk Eclipse

2011-12-09, 09:26 PM

It is actually in Dungeonscape and it wouldn't help Haley as that ability is only half SA dice on flanked targets, as a ranged character she is SOL. A wand of Gravestrike or a greater truedeath crystal are her only options to SA Xykon.

SavageWombat

2011-12-10, 02:08 PM

And that's not even including nine more spells known and bloodline powers, discounting the power upgrades all Pathfinder characters get (feats, etc.). Speaking of which, any speculations on Pathfinder-Xykon's bloodline?

I'd say it's something that gives him access to "Animate Dead", since that's his first demonstrated spell ability.

Blisstake

2011-12-10, 02:54 PM

She could have already done that if she gave up trap sense.
It's a alternate class feature in Unearthed Arcane.

This is an incredibly minor dispute, but...

I'm well aware there are a number of ways to bypass the weaknesses of sneak attack. That said, the main characters mostly stick to core, and we don't really have any evidence that any of the OotS members have taken alternate class features.

In Pathfinder, there woudln't need to be any further explanation for her ability to sneak attack Xykon, while in 3.5 rules it would be a bit of an anticlimax for her to reveal she took some alternate class feature most people probably don't know about to be able to apply her sneak attack to the undead.

Of course, this isn't Pathfinder, and in all likelyhood, she can't sneak attack the undead, so I'm really curious what her role will be in the final battle...

zimmerwald1915

2011-12-10, 04:05 PM

Of course, this isn't Pathfinder, and in all likelyhood, she can't sneak attack the undead, so I'm really curious what her role will be in the final battle...
After Roy died Haley's response was to berate herself. Now, that's fairly typical for her character, but how she berated herself is important. She fumes that she should have been able to find "some kind of arrow that could hurt Xykon". Not some alternate class ability, which she'd have to take at first level anyway, but some kind of arrow. Just more evidence for the "Haley can't sneak attack the undead" position.

Blisstake

2011-12-10, 04:50 PM

^Thank you. I was pretty sure she mentioned it somewhere, but I wasn't sure where.

Absol197

2011-12-10, 07:17 PM

Sabrine wouldn't have nearly as many advantages, not the least of which is outsider HD being lowered in pathfinder.

Actually, Outsider HD was raised. It was a d8 in 3.5, and now it's a d10 in PF. Just FYI.

Bastian Weaver

2011-12-10, 07:35 PM

Gift Jeraff

2011-12-10, 07:49 PM

Xykon would be able to add his Charisma modifier to his rolls? I thought that Charisma was his dump stat. He wouldn't persuade an itching man to start scratching. Not that it worries him as long as he can kill that man for fun and transform his body into a permanently scratching zombie...Charisma is what sorcerers depend on. In fact, Xykon probably has the highest Charisma in the entire comic, and he shows it all the time.

Dr.Epic

2011-12-10, 08:15 PM

Roy would have more feats not to mentions actual class abilities!

Doesn't Roy get enough breaks?

Belril Duskwalk

2011-12-10, 11:06 PM

Roy would have more feats not to mentions actual class abilities!

As a side effect, this would kill the punchline for comic 808 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0808.html). Because Knowledge: Engineering actually is a Pathfinder Fighter's class skill. Actually it would rough up most of the cross-class skill jokes. Pathfinder draws a much less harsh distinction between class and cross-class skill ranks compared to 3.5.

Morquard

2011-12-11, 05:20 AM

Also there's no LA in PF anymore, so Xykon wouldn't have 4 "empty" levels anymore. He might maybe be 2 levels or so lower in total, but all those would be actual class levels, so I think it's a powerboost still.

The Witch-King

2011-12-11, 05:43 AM

As a side effect, this would kill the punchline for comic 808 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0808.html). Because Knowledge: Engineering actually is a Pathfinder Fighter's class skill. Actually it would rough up most of the cross-class skill jokes. Pathfinder draws a much less harsh distinction between class and cross-class skill ranks compared to 3.5.

Those jokes could remain if there were a "I believe we are being converted over to the new Pathfinder system" scene...

KillianHawkeye

2011-12-11, 09:02 AM

Those jokes could remain if there were a "I believe we are being converted over to the new Pathfinder system" scene...

That's never going to happen, because it wouldn't add anything to the story at this point.

EDIT: Besides which, it would amount to Rich giving a direct endorsement for switching to Pathfinder over regular D&D, which would open up a whole can of worms that I'm sure he'd rather leave alone. His comic isn't really about D&D anymore, it just uses it to help tell the story.

Thalnawr

2011-12-11, 10:58 AM

Of course, this isn't Pathfinder, and in all likelyhood, she can't sneak attack the undead, so I'm really curious what her role will be in the final battle...
Killing Tsukiko, if she's still around for that part of the story?

mrmcfatty

2011-12-11, 12:34 PM

Of course, this isn't Pathfinder, and in all likelyhood, she can't sneak attack the undead, so I'm really curious what her role will be in the final battle...

Well we know that Haley has cold iron and silver arrows, i dont think they count as magical but i could be wrong, so who is to say that she couldn't find arrows that were able to overcome Xykon's DR. Granted, the arrows wouldnt do very much damage, but it would be a little bit more than nothing and depending on who all attacked him that round those few points of damage could be the difference in him passing or failing a concentration check.

my bet though is that they will all have a "one-on one" battle against someone, and all fight xykon at the end or something similar along those lines, assuming that xykon will be final battle and not the snarl, world in rift, Kraagor, roy's mom, or whoever.

more on topic though, i think that overall things would be the same because they would get some benefits and lose others.

Kish

2011-12-11, 12:36 PM

Of course, this isn't Pathfinder, and in all likelyhood, she can't sneak attack the undead, so I'm really curious what her role will be in the final battle...
I'm wondering why you're thinking there's going to be an "Order of the Stick vs. Xykon" final battle. It's a comic strip, not a CRPG.

AlaskaOOTSFan

2011-12-11, 01:24 PM

I'm wondering why you're thinking there's going to be an "Order of the Stick vs. Xykon" final battle. It's a comic strip, not a CRPG.

Oh, I wish it was both. Imagine a Baldur's Gate like game or an old school TSR Gold Box like game. Sure, levels would be capped for certain areas, and the level up would be pre-determined like in a Dragon Quest/Warrior game. Party would be mandatory-split in some areas like one of the Final Fantasies I cannot think of the #. I would love that.

Hell I would pre-order that.

If I had investment money I would even try to find an indie firm and finance them and pitch the game to Mr B himself, with him having 100% artistic control.

Sigh, to be rich....(the money-state, not the person. He works too hard. I am too lazy.)

Blisstake

2011-12-11, 03:43 PM

I'm wondering why you're thinking there's going to be an "Order of the Stick vs. Xykon" final battle. It's a comic strip, not a CRPG.

There will be a final battle, it's a narritive inevitability.

Of course there's the chance it won't be against Xykon, but if that were to happen, I'm curious what she would end up doing. Fighting his minions is a possibility, but we honestly don't really know enough about how the scene is going to be set and under what circumstances, so what Haley's role at the end of the strip is just a passing curiosity of mine.

And I'm well aware of the differences between the two, thank you.

KillianHawkeye

2011-12-12, 12:08 AM

Well we know that Haley has cold iron and silver arrows, i dont think they count as magical but i could be wrong, so who is to say that she couldn't find arrows that were able to overcome Xykon's DR. Granted, the arrows wouldnt do very much damage, but it would be a little bit more than nothing and depending on who all attacked him that round those few points of damage could be the difference in him passing or failing a concentration check.

Cold iron and silver aren't innately magical, but they can be enchanted. However, in order to overcome Xykon's DR, Haley would have to somehow find magical bludgeoning arrows. Now, I think there may have been blunt arrows in a 3.0 book somewhere, but IIRC they dealt nonlethal damage which Xykon, as an undead, is immune to.

Killer Angel

2011-12-12, 03:30 AM

Of course, this isn't Pathfinder, and in all likelyhood, she can't sneak attack the undead, so I'm really curious what her role will be in the final battle...

She'll fight Redcloack and his goblin minions. After all, she's part of The Resistance.

Sith_Happens

2011-12-12, 04:03 AM

She'll fight Redcloack and his goblin minions. After all, she's part of The Resistance.

Actually, my money's on a grudge match with Tsukiko.

Psyren

2011-12-12, 09:06 AM

There will be a final battle, it's a narritive inevitability.

Of course there's the chance it won't be against Xykon, but if that were to happen, I'm curious what she would end up doing. Fighting his minions is a possibility, but we honestly don't really know enough about how the scene is going to be set and under what circumstances, so what Haley's role at the end of the strip is just a passing curiosity of mine.

And I'm well aware of the differences between the two, thank you.

The likelihood of the Order fighting Xykon directly is extremely low; If he got serious, he could wipe them out in a couple of rounds, and any other outcome of such a contest would strain disbelief to the breaking point.

The Order's best bet is to get some of the world's big guns to take him on; having him fall prey to a Scribble-trap, pitting him against the Snarl, or even turning the MitD against him for instance. But an actual final battle between both camps is improbable at best.

As for the topic - the changes to the casters in particular are pervasive enough that they would alter the story significantly.

Morquard

2011-12-12, 12:08 PM

Cold iron and silver aren't innately magical, but they can be enchanted. However, in order to overcome Xykon's DR, Haley would have to somehow find magical bludgeoning arrows. Now, I think there may have been blunt arrows in a 3.0 book somewhere, but IIRC they dealt nonlethal damage which Xykon, as an undead, is immune to.
I'm pretty sure that an arrow counts as magical as long as the bow that fired it is magical. Which Haley's bow is.

So she would just have to find blunt arrows to fire at him. I know that in PF those arrows exist, I'm sure in one of the 3.5 splatbooks there are some as well.

However that doesn't solve the problem that she'll still miss out on alot of damage from sneak attack.

She might also get undead bane arrows I guess. Expensive, but does extra damage vs them.

Blisstake

2011-12-12, 04:44 PM

The likelihood of the Order fighting Xykon directly is extremely low; If he got serious, he could wipe them out in a couple of rounds, and any other outcome of such a contest would strain disbelief to the breaking point.

Oh, not exactly. Given the spells that we are fairly sure he possesses, it actually isn't terribly improbably that the Order would be able to last a while against his attacks. Mass Death Ward would negate a large portion of his offensive capabilities, and Durkon and V can always defensive spells to protect the group against his main damage output of meteor swarms. He doesn't seem to have any of the absolutely game-breaking spells like Wish, Gate, or Time Stop, so I think a battle between him and the Order could actually be quite entertaining, and a close outcome wouldn't really strain disbelief at all.

I do agree that there is a large chance of there not even being a direct encounter against Xykon, but that doesn't stop me from thinking about hypothetical situations where it could come up.

Sith_Happens

2011-12-12, 08:18 PM

Oh, not exactly. Given the spells that we are fairly sure he possesses, it actually isn't terribly improbably that the Order would be able to last a while against his attacks. Mass Death Ward would negate a large portion of his offensive capabilities, and Durkon and V can always defensive spells to protect the group against his main damage output of meteor swarms. He doesn't seem to have any of the absolutely game-breaking spells like Wish, Gate, or Time Stop, so I think a battle between him and the Order could actually be quite entertaining, and a close outcome wouldn't really strain disbelief at all.

I do agree that there is a large chance of there not even being a direct encounter against Xykon, but that doesn't stop me from thinking about hypothetical situations where it could come up.

One problem with that train of thought: Narratively speaking, it's not the spells we're fairly sure he possesses that are important, it's the spells we don't know he possesses that are.

Beowulf DW

2011-12-12, 08:36 PM

Speaking of which, any speculations on Pathfinder-Xykon's bloodline?

I think it would be the Undead Bloodline. Seems to fit better considering he's a lich.

Also, I love this discussion so far. Please, don't get side-tracked by Haley's tactics and choice of arrows in a hypothetical final showdown with Xykon.

Hakazin

2011-12-14, 09:09 AM

V would have a new damage-dealing option, thanks to the fact that he/she would get the force missile ability, and he/she could use it 7 times a day, assuming that he/she hasn't boosted his/her intelligence score.

Evard

2011-12-23, 11:10 PM

Belkar would not have been a ranger... He would have became an Inquisitor :)

If this was Final Fantasy 1 or 8 Bit Theater then the Inquisitor would be the Ranger's "Class Change" after meeting a certain God-King :p

I made a low wisdom Inquisitor and he worked out pretty well!

As for Haley ... With the way she handled Roy's death I could see her becoming a Green Arrow type of Archer, one that has every fricken type of arrow known to man... And for Xykon, does anyone else remember those giant punching glove arrows? mwuahhaha :D

Although I think the Fiends will be the ones to kill Xykon

KillianHawkeye

2011-12-24, 08:29 AM

If this was Final Fantasy 1 or 8 Bit Theater then the Inquisitor would be the Ranger's "Class Change" after meeting a certain God-King :p

In 8-Bit Theater, Ranger would probably have class-changed into Ranger. :smallamused: