Is Tarquin a Factotum?

[JackRackham]

I was thinking about what Tarquin does and a high-level Factotum would make a lot of sense. He can mimic any fighting style (cunning brilliance) - as evidenced by the pun-deul with Elan. He seems to auto-succeed on whatever he tries (cunning knowledge, cunning insight, brains over brawn). He seems like he's good at everything, but I'll be damned if I can nail down his specialty. Idk. Thoughts?

[TroubleBrewing]

I think it's more likely he's a real magnificent bastard. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MagnificentBastard)

[Blisstake]

I was thinking about what Tarquin does and a high-level Factotum would make a lot of sense. He can mimic any fighting style (cunning brilliance) - as evidenced by the pun-deul with Elan.

We've seen him in a total of one fight (if you include that as a fight), and all he did was say puns back at Elan. You don't even need a class feature to do that.


He seems to auto-succeed on whatever he tries (cunning knowledge, cunning insight, brains over brawn).

What has he tried that has a chance of failure?


He seems like he's good at everything, but I'll be damned if I can nail down his specialty. Idk. Thoughts?

He's got brains and brawn. Sort of like Roy.

[VanBuren]

He's got brains and brawn. Sort of like Roy.

But also, as far as we know, without the daddy issues that guided Roy into becoming a single-classed Fighter. Especially with the knowledge that Tarquin likes to have a plan for everything, I'd be more than a little surprised to discover that he's closed himself off to skillpoints and spellcasting, and limited himself not only to melee, but to the Fighter's melee.

Yes, I know that people aren't optimized in this comic. But if anyone was, it would be Tarquin.

[Morph Bark]

He's got brains and brawn. Sort of like Roy.

"Oh my god, dad! Are you a future psychic too?"

[Shhalahr Windrider]

We've seen him in a total of one fight (if you include that as a fight), and all he did was say puns back at Elan. You don't even need a class feature to do that.
Depends. Does Elan’s pun fighting class feature have a disclaimer that it doesn’t work on anyone who says puns back, regardless of whether or not they have a relevant class feature, feat, or other ability?

Now, you need a class feature to get the punning ability in the first place. To let any yahoo that has not invested any character resources into doing so to totally negate your hard-earned Prestige-Classs feature is just weak game design.

[Morquard]

Yes, I know that people aren't optimized in this comic. But if anyone was, it would be Tarquin.
I would agree with that.

[Morty]

Like I've said before, I think it's likely the Giant doesn't have a class for Tarquin in mind. Until this point at least, it doesn't matter whether he's a Fighter, a Fighter/Rogue, a Factotum or some combination of the above with a prestige class thrown in.

[Kish]

Yes, I know that people aren't optimized in this comic. But if anyone was, it would be Tarquin.
Actually, it was a certain half-ogre. With a spiked chain.

[Lord Ruby34]

I've always wondered in Tarquin could be a Warblade. He's intelligent, good in Melee, and doesn't seem like he would limit himself the way Roy does. Furthermore it seems like we've seen more characters from splatbook classes in the EoB than anywhere else.

I'm almost definitely wrong, but it would still be cool to see.

[NerfTW]

He can mimic any fighting style (cunning brilliance) - as evidenced by the pun-deul with Elan.

He says nothing like this, just that he knows how to counter "many obscure combat techniques" and that he's pun dueled before. That doesn't translate to "mimic any fighting style", just experience fighting a wide variety of adventurers for decades.



He seems to auto-succeed on whatever he tries (cunning knowledge, cunning insight, brains over brawn).

Could you provide an example of this? We've seen him fail several times. Just because he's optimized doesn't mean he succeeds all the time. You're comparing a ruler with unlimited resources and decades of experience with an adventuring team that regularly makes mistakes. Having a ring of true seeing is just a natural defensive action against assassins.


He seems like he's good at everything, but I'll be damned if I can nail down his specialty. Idk. Thoughts?

Well, for starters, we haven't seen him cast any magic. And for that matter, we haven't seen him do anything related to rogue skills. In fact, all we've seen is that he can use a sword, and probably has a pretty good diplomacy skill. That once again does not translate to "good at everything", especially given that he hasn't really done anything that requires skills outside of hitting people with a sword and blocking. (And possibly diplomacy)

[Murray]

We've seen him in a total of one fight (if you include that as a fight), and all he did was say puns back at Elan. You don't even need a class feature to do that.


Since Elan's prestige class bonus is to damage instead of striking (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0390.html), the pun duel could have been more of a bardic duel, kinda in the tradition of a riddle duel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riddle#Riddles_as_a_game).

That said, I still can't help but wonder if Tarquin started as a bard and switched classes to something that could let him become the kind of legend he could only sing about in his youth.

[Hazzardevil]

Now, you need a class feature to get the punning ability in the first place. To let any yahoo that has not invested any character resources into doing so to totally negate your hard-earned Prestige-Classs feature is just weak game design.

Yet the wizards have all sorts of overpowered and pathetic prestige classes all over the place. That sounds like something wizards would do.

[NerfTW]

Depends. Does Elan’s pun fighting class feature have a disclaimer that it doesn’t work on anyone who says puns back, regardless of whether or not they have a relevant class feature, feat, or other ability?

Now, you need a class feature to get the punning ability in the first place. To let any yahoo that has not invested any character resources into doing so to totally negate your hard-earned Prestige-Classs feature is just weak game design.

We've seen hobgoblins sort of counter Elan's puns before (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0438.html), so the idea that you'd need the prestige class or a certain skill to take part is unlikely.

[zimmerwald1915]

The only ability Tarquin has evinced that demands a mechanical explanation is his astounding ability not to get hit. Neither Elan in the pun-duel nor Nale in the flashback wounded him, and Amun-Zora only hit him once after whiffing a number of times. Anyone can pump AC given enough wealth and maybe an armor proficiency feat if his class is not proficient. In other words, Tarquin could easily be a Commoner.

Now, I do feel that Tarquin would fit easily as a Factotum, but there's no evidence suggesting it beyond his omnicompetence.

[Bulldog Psion]

Even without more evidence, I'd give it a 50/50 chance that Tarquin is a Factotum, myself.

(Of course, if this were FantasyCraft rather than D&D, I'd guess immediately that he was a Captain with a few levels of Courtier :smallwink: .)

[NerfTW]

nor Nale in the flashback wounded him.

We saw literally ONE panel of that fight. How on earth does that even remotely imply that Nale couldn't hit him?


Even without more evidence, I'd give it a 50/50 chance that Tarquin is a Factotum, myself.

There's no evidence at all, though. All evidence so far has been from over generalizing small things into entire class features. Literally the only thing we've seen Tarquin do is hit people and dodge a weak character's attacks. Elan is regularly outmatched by a same level fighter (Nale is multi class), Haley was hit by a bull rush, and we have no idea what level Amun Zora is. There is absolutely zero evidence of any sort of impressive class features other than being a decent fighter.

[zimmerwald1915]

We saw literally ONE panel of that fight. How on earth does that even remotely imply that Nale couldn't hit him?
Nale had been wounded six times by the moment in the fight recounted in the flashback. Tarquin had not been wounded once. If Tarquin hit Nale every time he tried, and tried every round, the fight would have been going on for six rounds (a little over half a minute) by the moment shown in the flashback. It could easily have been going on longer, if for instance Tarquin did not try to hit Nale every round, as he did when fighting Elan and Amun-Zora, or if he missed a number of times. Nale, meanwhile has his rage face on, and I think it highly improbable that at such an emotional peak, knowing what we know about Nale's character, that he would not be trying, and failing, to hit Tarquin every round. I think it's safe to say that Tarquin had an easier time hitting Nale than Nale had hitting Tarquin. Combined with every other time we've seen Tarquin fight, with less AC-boosting equipment, no less (he had a shield when fighting Nale, and not when fighting Amun-Zora and Elan), I think it's safe to say that Tarquin is hard to hit across the board.

EDIT: none of this, as we both know, is evidence of anything other than Tarquin pumping his AC, something that any character with sufficient wealth can do.

[NerfTW]

I think you've put way, WAY more thought into the details of that one panel than the Giant did when drawing it.

[zimmerwald1915]

I think you've put way, WAY more thought into the details of that one panel than the Giant did when drawing it.
Let's not underestimate the Giant, now, shall we? :smallwink:

[Gift Jeraff]

I think that panel's just showing that the Linear Guild was completely outmatched. Plus, Nale was presumably the same level as Elan at the time, which would be like 9~11ish, I think (OOTS level at the start of the comic), whereas Tarquin probably hasn't gained many, if any, levels between then and now, and now he seems to be 13+. So it's just showing the gap in power between the two. EDIT: And couldn't the Ring of Regeneration mean that Nale got a hit or two in, but the wounds healed?

As for Tarquin's class, I'm guessing he's a fighter. Elan is mostly a bard like his mother, so as his opposite Nale has a few levels in fighter unlike his father who is entirely a fighter?

[Shhalahr Windrider]

We've seen hobgoblins sort of counter Elan's puns before (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0438.html), so the idea that you'd need the prestige class or a certain skill to take part is unlikely.
The hobgoblins didn’t counter it. The pun didn’t work because Elan already used that pun earlier in the fight. That was Elan’s failure, not the hobgoblins’ success.


Nale had been wounded six times by the moment in the fight recounted in the flashback. Tarquin had not been wounded once. If Tarquin hit Nale every time he tried, and tried every round, the fight would have been going on for six rounds (a little over half a minute) by the moment shown in the flashback.
Since Tarquin most likely has levels in a martial class, he probably gets more than one attack—and therefore one attempt to hit Nale—per round. Assuming he is positioned for a full attack, of course.

[Sith_Happens]

Actually, it was a certain half-ogre. With a spiked chain.

...Who used Spring Attack instead of Improved Trip.:smalltongue:

[Cirrylius]

The hobgoblins didn’t counter it. The pun didn’t work because Elan already used that pun earlier in the fight.
Don't forget there were some creatures (can't be more specific, don't remember) that Elan was having to dumb-down his puns to affect.

[Valyrian]

We've seen now that Elan's puns don't work if the target is too dumb to get them, can't hear them, or the puns that were used already have no effect. I think it's reasonable to assume that if Elan for some reason can't use his puns for full comedic effect, they don't work for Dashing Swordsman. It's a class that's based on coolness after all, and what's cool about puns that are out-punned by your enemy?

As for how Tarquin was able to counter them, hard to say. Maybe it's an actual ability, maybe he has a knowledge skill for obscure prestige classes, or maybe it's part of the regular genre savviness the characters display all the time without needing a respective entry on their character sheet for it.

[Blisstake]

Depends. Does Elan’s pun fighting class feature have a disclaimer that it doesn’t work on anyone who says puns back, regardless of whether or not they have a relevant class feature, feat, or other ability?

Now, you need a class feature to get the punning ability in the first place. To let any yahoo that has not invested any character resources into doing so to totally negate your hard-earned Prestige-Classs feature is just weak game design.

No, here's the thing, Elan needs to say something witty and attention-grabbing to get the bonus. If he's getting shown up by Tarquin, I don't think he would receive the bonus.

Regardless, it's a bonus to damage, and he never even hit Tarquin, so it's a bit of a moot point anyway.


As for how Tarquin was able to counter them, hard to say. Maybe it's an actual ability, maybe he has a knowledge skill for obscure prestige classes, or maybe it's part of the regular genre savviness the characters display all the time without needing a respective entry on their character sheet for it.

Right after the battle, he said he's had to do a pun-off before. I'm starting to think he has, at one point, fought Julius Scoundrel.

[deuxhero]

If nothing else, Factotum is from a book The Giant helped write and has been referenced at least once.

[Blisstake]

Yeah, but it's still a bit of an obscure class, that could end up confusing a lot of the readers, especially since "Factotum" is such an unusual name for a class.

I suppose it's possible, but if he is one, I suspect it would never be oficially revealed in the comic (sort of like how Thog is a dungeon crasher according to Rich, but he doesn't say it in the comic since it's really not all that important)

[deuxhero]

Couild be done indirectly like Spymaster was, such as by noting he has a non-PHB base class.

[ORione]

Right after the battle, he said he's had to do a pun-off before. I'm starting to think he has, at one point, fought Julius Scoundrel.

Maybe Tarquin knew what was in the drawer by the bed (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0389.html).

[Joxer t' Mighty]

Ok, was thinking back to how Tarquin mentioned it'd been 'sometime' since he had had to pun duel.

I.e. he's done it before.

What famous fellow might he have tussled with in the past? Why, one Julio Scoundrel, of course! Apparently our dashing swordsman survived the encounter as well, though Tarquin was likely much lower in level.

One could even hypothesize that Julio was a friend of Tarquin, and the former recognized Elan as the latter's son, hence his helping the bard, but bluffing that it was simply out of curiosity for his predicament.

Whether this has been mentioned before or not, it remains an interesting thought at least.

[Caractacus]

Maybe Tarquin knew what was in the drawer by the bed (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0389.html).

Heh! Quite! :smallwink:

[Palthera]

I always thought it was an indication that Tarquin had the same obscure source book at Julio Scoundrel and had some levels in Dashing Swordsman himself...

[The Succubus]

I'm half expecting a certain black dragon to post in this thread.....:smalltongue:

[paddyfool]

Even without more evidence, I'd give it a 50/50 chance that Tarquin is a Factotum, myself.

(Of course, if this were FantasyCraft rather than D&D, I'd guess immediately that he was a Captain with a few levels of Courtier :smallwink: .)

Love the FC reference, and if any characters in OOTS had enough cinematic awesome points to be crafty characters, it'd be Tarquin. Still... I'm thinking Soldier, using either Intelligence- or Charisma-based martial arts, maybe going into Edgemaster, myself.

[Bulldog Psion]

I always thought it was an indication that Tarquin had the same obscure source book at Julio Scoundrel and had some levels in Dashing Swordsman himself...

For some reason, I have a strong impression that theory was shot down pretty emphatically in some way back when the comic first appeared. I may be mistaken, however.

[Ninjaman]

I think it's more likely he's a real magnificent bastard. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MagnificentBastard)

I just looked at some of the links and look what i found. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DangerouslyGenreSavvy)
Awesome :smallbiggrin:

[AutomatedTeller]

Given that the definition of a factotum is a type of servant or employee, it seems unlikely that Tarquin's ego would allow him to take it a class.

[Lintecarka]

Actually Tarquin is at least kind of a servant and his ego seems to be fine with it. Still I don't see why he'd need any special class to do what he does.

[Jaros]

Actually Tarquin is at least kind of a servant and his ego seems to be fine with it. Still I don't see why he'd need any special class to do what he does.

Officially, he's a servant to the Empress, but we all know he's the one in charge. From what we know of him I can't see him actually being someone's servant.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Given that the definition of a factotum is a type of servant or employee, it seems unlikely that Tarquin's ego would allow him to take it a class.
You know the class name doesn’t necessarily reflect the dictionary definition, right?

[VanBuren]

You know the class name doesn’t necessarily reflect the dictionary definition, right?

And if we're going purely by the latin construction, fac totum, it really just means he can do anything.

[Math_Mage]

FWIW, Tarquin's almost certainly not a main Fighter, as his party already has a standard S&B (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0758.html). Full caster classes can also be ruled out with reasonable safety, and he has proficiency with a dagger (as if that rules anything out, lol). He's not a bard, since he plainly has combat skills and thinks bards have none (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0761.html). I'd conjecture that Tarquin is multiclass, but not a needlessly complicated one like Nale--that would fit the pattern between those two.

Re: Factotum...As Cunning Brilliance requires Tarquin to be 19th level, I would be hesitant to use that as evidence...even though his combat competence is clearly far above Elan's. It's reasonable to say that Tarquin's armor is 'light' (except the helm), so that fits (but would fit with almost any likely answer).

[JaxGaret]

Good analysis Math Mage.

My working theory is that Tarquin is a Marshal (possibly multiclassed into something else) who uses his Auras to great effect, particularly the skill-enhancing Aura.

[voiceofreason]

Epic level Illusionist. Draketooth in disguise. Chaotic Good ruler of a Lawful Evil realm. The burning slaves on crosses were an illusion only ever seen from a distance. I can't account for the missing wives though. It would all tend to add to the mystique.

[Blisstake]

You know the class name doesn’t necessarily reflect the dictionary definition, right?

Anyone without Dungeonscape may only have the dictionary to go by. There's no need to confuse people who don't have knowledge of one of the more obscure character classes.

[Silva Stormrage]

Epic level Illusionist. Draketooth in disguise. Chaotic Good ruler of a Lawful Evil realm. The burning slaves on crosses were an illusion only ever seen from a distance. I can't account for the missing wives though. It would all tend to add to the mystique.

Oh god please no. We all know epic level illusionists can do whatever they want because epic magic trumps all. But having Tarquin = Draketooth makes no sense. Especially with the current comic.

[ORione]

Unless anyone wants to question Tarquin being Lawful Evil, I think we can safely rule out Barbarian, Bard, and Druid.

[Geordnet]

I just looked at some of the links and look what i found. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DangerouslyGenreSavvy)
Awesome :smallbiggrin:

Tarquin is not only a Dangerously Genre Savvy (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DangerouslyGenreSavvy) Magnificent Bastard (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MagnificentBastard), but also The Chessmaster (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheChessmaster) and a somewhat Affable (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AffablyEvil), partially Retired (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RetiredMonster) Complete Monster (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CompleteMonster) who Cannot Comprehend Good (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EvilCannotComprehendGood) and proscribes to Blue and Orange Morality (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BlueAndOrangeMorality).

While his Evil Plan (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EvilPlan) does not qualify for Xanatos Gambit (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/XanatosGambit) status, being more along the lines of a Government (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GovernmentConspiracy) Conspiracy (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheConspiracy), he seems to do well at a small-scale version of Xanatos Speed Chess (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/XanatosSpeedChess).

He maintains his Good Publicity (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/VillainWithGoodPublicity) with Bread And Circuses (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BreadAndCircuses), and the occasional change of Puppet King (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PuppetKing)/renaming of Egopolis (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Egopolis).


DISCLAIMER: Follow links at your own risk. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TVTropesWillRuinYourLife) Your Mileage May Vary (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/YMMV) for any/all of the above.


PS:
Oh wait, this is getting off-topic, isn't it? Um... well, my guess would be that the name 'Factotum' sounds like something that might fit Tarquin's personality, but I have absolutely no idea what one actually is so it's as (un)likely as anything else.

Personally, I think Tarquin's highest stat is Charisma, if that makes any difference. As far as blocking Elan's attacks go, a low-mid level Aristocrat managed to do that (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0593.html).

[Gift Jeraff]

FWIW, Tarquin's almost certainly not a main Fighter, as his party already has a standard S&B (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0758.html).I was thinking the shield guy could be a blackguard or something.

[Fishman]

It is almost certainly premature to guess at what Tarquin's class composition could be, since he has not actually been in any actual fights. We saw one frame of a combat scene, he was attacked without success by a low-level character, in which he did not hit back, and he held off Elan. However, defending oneself against Elan isn't really indicative of anything: Elan can't even hit an aristocrat with zero combat ability using Total Defense, so it stands to reason he would be completely unable to hit a high-level fighter-type in top of the line adventuring equipment, before any unusual features come into play: Just Combat Expertise alone probably presents a nigh-impenetrable wall of defense to the likes of Elan.

[Ninjaman]

Geordnet@ you got me.

[H Birchgrove]

Unless anyone wants to question Tarquin being Lawful Evil, I think we can safely rule out Barbarian, Bard, and Druid.

Ninja as well. :smalltongue:

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Anyone without Dungeonscape may only have the dictionary to go by. There's no need to confuse people who don't have knowledge of one of the more obscure character classes.
I should think context clues such as “high-level factotum” and “cunning brilliance” which have little to do with the dictionary definition would clue in most readers of the comic that “factotum” may have a specific game meaning.

And that’s before Dungeonscape was specifically name-dropped as a source.

[Blisstake]

I should think context clues such as “high-level factotum” and “cunning brilliance” which have little to do with the dictionary definition would clue in most readers of the comic that “factotum” may have a specific game meaning.

And that’s before Dungeonscape was specifically name-dropped as a source.

I think it would be especially awkward to drop all that terminology on someone very unfamiliar with the class/Dungeonscape in general. Plus "has an in-game meaning" doesn't really help much if you don't know what that is without arduous and un-needed explaination.

It wasn't specifically named as a source. It was mentioned by the roaches as a joke, that many people may not have understood (which is probably why it wasn't the punchline).

So he could be a factotum, sure, but I highly doubt it would be mentioned in the comic if he were.

[Quackenbush]

So far, I've been thinking of him as a Bard/fighter. He has shown himself to be good in a fight, but he also has elan's dramatic sense, and as he said, he taught Nale that Bards were underpowered and should be more important, suggesting that he is a bard himself.

[Emanick]

So far, I've been thinking of him as a Bard/fighter. He has shown himself to be good in a fight, but he also has elan's dramatic sense, and as he said, he taught Nale that Bards were underpowered and should be more important, suggesting that he is a bard himself.

I very much doubt it. Nale probably knows his father's character class. He probably wouldn't have interpreted his father's response the way he did if he knew that his father was a bard.

Besides, Tarquin refers to bards as "they," not "we," suggesting that he himself is not one of them.

To crown it all, I've just remembered that he's Lawful, and therefore can't be one anyway.

[zimmerwald1915]

Since the joke about people managing to be effective with NPC classes has been done with both Shojo and Kubota, it is possible that we could learn that Tarquin is indeed an Expert or a Commoner. For exactly the same reason, it is possible that Tarquin has his levels in one or more PC classes. I'm starting to think Tarquin's class will not be revealed, since nothing he does requires a class ability. Perhaps it will not spawn as many threads, but Tarquin's class could quite easily end up as eternally ambiguous as V's sex.

[JackRackham]

I guess what it boils down to, for me, is that, of the base classes I can think of, factotum seems like the best fit for who Tarquin is as a character. Is there solid evidence tying him to this class? No. It's more a gut thing. He doesn't feel like a fighter, rogue, sorcerer, wizard, cleric, druid, ranger, swashbuckler (maybe swashbuckler....maybe), etc. to me. He does feel like a factotum. It just fits his personality - a genius who seems to always have an answer.

[brionl]

I've mentioned it before, but it could be that Tarquin's father was a Bard. He was disappointed in his father, hence his dislike of the Bard class.

[The Succubus]

If there's any homebrewers in here, I could use a little help with this idea.

I think Tarquin is a Tropemancer, with perhaps a few levels in fighter or something like that.

A Tropemancer works similar to bard, in that it's a melee focus with spell-like abilities, perhaps with a certain number of tropes that can be active at once. Examples include:

* Plot Armour: Increases AC by a certain amount.

* Inaccurate Presence: All ranged attacks made against the Tropemancer have a -2 to hit.

* Skip Forward A Few Pages: Allows rapid travel between locations without causing random encounters.

* Mookbane: Any attacks made against a low level servant have a chance to crit and deal additional damage based on level


I've never done any sort of homebrew, this was just an idea floating in my head based on Tarquin's knowledge of plot devices. :smallwink:

[Bubbles]

*Deleted*

Never cut and paste a post you were typing when you timed out when RL decides its time to hurry. Right post, wrong thread. :smallredface::smallsigh:

[Bulldog Psion]

* Mookbane: Any attacks made against a low level servant have a chance to crit and deal additional damage based on level


The phrase "Mookbane" made me snicker inordinately. :smallbiggrin:

[Spookymurloc]

I'm going to preface this post by stating, for the record, I don't know diddly-squat about DnD rules, so bear with me please. :smalltongue:

If Tarquin is of a very high level (comparable to Xykon for instance), then wouldn't it be very easy for him to go through the fight scenes he has appeared in unscathed due to being so much higher level than his opponents?
My reasoning for this is his fight with Nale happened before the OotS met the Linear Guild, which means Nale would have been at a level approximately equal to Elan.
Tarquin, on the other hand, had already led a long and successful career as an (evil) adventurer, which would have made him a much higher level than Nale by the time they were shown fighting in the flashback.

Also, I don't know anything about DnD classes so I don't know whether this applies, but I think Nale refers to him as a Warlord when he first meets Elan. If a Warlord is a class, that could very well be his class.
Or it could just be a title, like Miko who was a part of the Azure City samurai social class, rather than being a part of any variety of samurai character class.

To finish off my post, I'd like to ask if DnD requires that a character spend levels in a class in order to learn something. For instance, he knows how to pun duel. My question is whether this has to be learned as a class feature, or if it is simply a peice of knowledge he can pick up regardless of class.
Bear in mind that in the pun duel he was blocking Elans puns, which seemed to have the effect of nullifying the Dashing Swordsman ability of replacing Strength bonus with Charisma bonus when making an attack. He may not have necessarily been using any ability other than that. It has been shown that Elan loses the Charisma bonus to his attacks if the target doesn't get the pun or if the pun is just lame in general (like when he foguht the sea trolls, or earlier the hobgoblins)

Particularly I'd like to know if being "Dangerously Genre-Savvy" would actually require a class, rather than just being a person who knows a lot of legends and stories and is able to deduce common pitfalls made by heroes and villains alike.

Finally, I'm channeling my past experiences posting on MMO boards by stating:
Wall of text crits your eyes for l33t dps doodz.

[zimmerwald1915]

If Tarquin is of a very high level (comparable to Xykon for instance), then wouldn't it be very easy for him to go through the fight scenes he has appeared in unscathed due to being so much higher level than his opponents?
Normally, people fighting in melee make their attacks against your Armor Class. Armor Class (AC) is impacted by your size, how tough your hide is, your Dexterity modifier, and Armor, Shield, and Deflection bonuses. Smaller creatures are harder to hit than larger, most humanoids don't have especially tough skin, and most humanoids have Dexterity modifiers capping out at +2 (a select few have rather higher modifiers). A character like Tarquin, who is shown to be, in most physiological respects, a normal humanoid, increases his Armor Class by purchasing items that increase his Armor, Shield, and Deflection bonuses.

Level in itself has no bearing on Armor Class except for classes like Monk. What level does impact is your expected wealth. With this wealth, you can purchase mundane or magic items (magic is better) to boost your Armor, Shield, and Deflection bonuses. Tarquin clearly has access to tremendous wealth. What is unknown is whether this wealth is tied to his expected wealth for his level or to his social status as the leading general of a successful, conquering Empire. It is conceivable that he is low-level and using his status to gain wealth to boost his Armor Class.


My reasoning for this is his fight with Nale happened before the OotS met the Linear Guild, which means Nale would have been at a level approximately equal to Elan.
Tarquin, on the other hand, had already led a long and successful career as an (evil) adventurer, which would have made him a much higher level than Nale by the time they were shown fighting in the flashback.
This is certainly possible. He was more successful at hitting Nale than Nale was at hitting him when they fought. This doesn't necessarily, however, say anything about Tarquin's level. Nale's attack bonus, as a multiclass fighter/rogue/sorcerer of about level ~10-11 with a mediocre Strength modifier to hit would be around +7. Meanwhile, Nale's Armor Class, with a mediocre Dexterity score and wearing a chain shirt, would be around 16. Neither score is particularly impressive.


Also, I don't know anything about DnD classes so I don't know whether this applies, but I think Nale refers to him as a Warlord when he first meets Elan. If a Warlord is a class, that could very well be his class.
Or it could just be a title, like Miko who was a part of the Azure City samurai social class, rather than being a part of any variety of samurai character class.
Warlord is not a D&D 3.5 class. It is a D&D 4e class, but I do not believe 4e was out at the time that strip was published. Not that, as you point out, it matters much.


To finish off my post, I'd like to ask if DnD requires that a character spend levels in a class in order to learn something. For instance, he knows how to pun duel. My question is whether this has to be learned as a class feature, or if it is simply a peice of knowledge he can pick up regardless of class.
Bear in mind that in the pun duel he was blocking Elans puns, which seemed to have the effect of nullifying the Dashing Swordsman ability of replacing Strength bonus with Charisma bonus when making an attack. He may not have necessarily been using any ability other than that. It has been shown that Elan loses the Charisma bonus to his attacks if the target doesn't get the pun or if the pun is just lame in general (like when he foguht the sea trolls, or earlier the hobgoblins)
Elan's Dashing Swordsman class abilities, as far as we know, let him add his Charisma bonus to damage if he makes a pun or spouts off a catch phrase. The class has no bearing on his ability to come up with or deliver puns or catch phrases, or his ability to hit his opponent. Tarquin during the pun duel never got hit. However, his punning did not "counter Elan's puns" in the sense that it nullified Elan's puns boosting his to-hit. No such boost exists. Elan's inability to hit Tarquin's AC is just that: his attack rolls were consistently lower than Tarquin's AC. What Tarquin's punning did do was surprise, demoralize, and confuse Elan to such an extent that Tarquin was able to disarm him. He was messing with Elan's head, not his attack bonus.


Particularly I'd like to know if being "Dangerously Genre-Savvy" would actually require a class, rather than just being a person who knows a lot of legends and stories and is able to deduce common pitfalls made by heroes and villains alike.
There are Knowledge skills, the extent to which one can invest in them is dependent on level. There are various Lore abilities attached to classes (Bard, Loremaster). As to whether these are "necessary" to appreciate or defend against a given combat style...that is up for debate.

[Spookymurloc]

Elan's Dashing Swordsman class abilities, as far as we know, let him add his Charisma bonus to damage if he makes a pun or spouts off a catch phrase. The class has no bearing on his ability to come up with or deliver puns or catch phrases, or his ability to hit his opponent. Tarquin during the pun duel never got hit. However, his punning did not "counter Elan's puns" in the sense that it nullified Elan's puns boosting his to-hit. No such boost exists. Elan's inability to hit Tarquin's AC is just that: his attack rolls were consistently lower than Tarquin's AC. What Tarquin's punning did do was surprise, demoralize, and confuse Elan to such an extent that Tarquin was able to disarm him. He was messing with Elan's head, not his attack bonus.


I was under the impression that the text from comics 438, 506, and 762 that the successfulness of the pun was necessary for making the attack successful.
I understand what you're saying now that the pun has no clear ties to actually landing a blow, but it seems to be required for the pun to do any damage whatsoever.

The first panel of #762 seems to imply that 'blocking the pun' blocks the attack as well, but I may just be reading too much into it. :smalltongue:

[zimmerwald1915]

I was under the impression that the text from comics 438, 506, and 762 that the successfulness of the pun was necessary for making the attack successful.
I understand what you're saying now that the pun has no clear ties to actually landing a blow, but it seems to be required for the pun to do any damage whatsoever.
Well, Elan's damage without the puns is piddling at best. On a regular attack with his rapier he's doing something like between three and eight damage on a successful hit. Adding his Charisma modifier to that damage increases both the lower and upper bounds by at least five, and possibly more. Bottom line, his worst possible damage when he puns is as good as his best possible damage without puns.

[Morty]

Well, the newest strip all but confirms Tarquin is a Fighter or some other martial class... but Fighter is most likely as the nameless Warlock is the only non-core class we've seen, unless I'm forgetting something.

[hamishspence]

There was the Little Psion that Could (and the Blue goblin). Also what looks like a Soulknife with the Warlock.

[zimmerwald1915]

Well, the newest strip all but confirms Tarquin is a Fighter or some other martial class... but Fighter is most likely as the nameless Warlock is the only non-core class we've seen, unless I'm forgetting something.
Well, there's the Soulknife, which is not core if "core" is "PHB, DMG, and MMI" and not "SRD". But yes, Tarquin's claiming to be the "strongest warrior in his generation" certainly implies that he's got some sort of martial class. It's less definitive than you make out, but the implication is there.

EDIT: ninja'd.

[Morty]

There was the Little Psion that Could (and the Blue goblin). Also what looks like a Soulknife with the Warlock.

I'm not sure if I'd classify Psionics as "non-core", but yes, you're right.


Well, there's the Soulknife, which is not core if "core" is "PHB, DMG, and MMI" and not "SRD". But yes, Tarquin's claiming to be the "strongest warrior in his generation" certainly implies that he's got some sort of martial class. It's less definitive than you make out, but the implication is there.

I see no reason to believe he's anything other than a Fighter. If he was a Blackguard, we'd have seen him use spells and other abilities. Being Lawful rules out Barbarian. The only other option is a non-core class like a Marshal or Warblade and we've seen very few members of non-core classes, like I said.

[Almaseti]

I think he's a Blackguard, honestly. Just because we didn't see him use spells or blackguard abilities doesn't mean he doesn't have them. And he certainly has the charisma for it.

[SavageWombat]

Three pages of discussion for the answer "No."

[ORione]

He said he's the "finest warrior of his generation." He could mean warrior as in the NPC class, in which case we've got this settled. Or he could mean warrior as in fighting type, like how Belkar used the word here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0058.html). Either way, I concur that he is in a primarily fighting-oriented class.

[JackRackham]

Yeah, between the warrior thing and the axe it appears unlikely he's a factotum. Warblade is where I'd go next with it, but Mr. Burlew hasn't used Tome of Battle in the strip so far, so that seems unlikely.

[Nightmarenny]

He said he's the "finest warrior of his generation." He could mean warrior as in the NPC class, in which case we've got this settled. Or he could mean warrior as in fighting type, like how Belkar used the word here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0058.html). Either way, I concur that he is in a primarily fighting-oriented class.

I think if there is anything we can be certain about its that he is not an NPC class.

[Cirrylius]

I can't imagine Tarquin having anything but contempt for an NPC combat class, so yeah, what you said.

[Bulldog Psion]

Three pages of discussion for the answer "No."

Yes, that sums it up pretty neatly.

[Hopeless]

Warlord is not a D&D 3.5 class. It is a D&D 4e class, but I do not believe 4e was out at the time that strip was published. Not that, as you point out, it matters much

Before 4e the Warlord was called the Marshal I believe well the abilities you described remind me of an additiona class from I think the complete Warrior but please correct me there.

Given the power creep in those books it would be easy for that class to prove more powerful than the fighter after all i think the complete arcane introduced the Warlock although the prize for the worst addition was the Favoured Soul in the Complete Divine.

Anyway that would be my guess for Tarquin's class and there's nothing to say one of his parents' was a bard and he married Elan's mother because she personified what he thought was best unfortunately their divorce is probably why thinks so little of bards...

[Grim Reader]

Before 4e the Warlord was called the Marshal I believe well the abilities you described remind me of an additiona class from I think the complete Warrior but please correct me there.

Given the power creep in those books it would be easy for that class to prove more powerful than the fighter after all i think the complete arcane introduced the Warlock although the prize for the worst addition was the Favoured Soul in the Complete Divine.

I don't see Tarquin as the guy to deliberatly pick a class less powerful than a core one. Marshal, Warlock and Favored Soul are all examples of classes much less powerful than their core equivalents.

Anyway, my guess for Tarquin is a core melee class with Blackguard levels on top. Fighter possibly, he seems to respect that class. Or some Ranger version, because he seem like someone who'd see the value in a lot of skillpoints. But we havent seen a lot of the Rangers other bling. Not Paladin or Barbarian for alignment reasons.

Offchance: Hexblade/Blackguard. It'd play into Belkars dig at Hexblades melee capability, and unlike fighter, Hexblade abilities have some scaling. Also stacks cha to saves well.

I could see Tarquin valuing a massive save bonus versus spells.

[hamishspence]

Before 4e the Warlord was called the Marshal I believe well the abilities you described remind me of an additiona class from I think the complete Warrior but please correct me there.

Given the power creep in those books it would be easy for that class to prove more powerful than the fighter after all i think the complete arcane introduced the Warlock although the prize for the worst addition was the Favoured Soul in the Complete Divine...

Favoured Soul actually appeared for the first time in Miniatures Handbook, alongside the Marshal.

[super dark33]

Higly likely he is a Factotum, as the class appears in the source book Dungeonscape, and one of its writers is Rich burlow, who is the author of this comic.

Thog also has the dungeoncrasher alternate class feuters for fighter, which also appear in dungeonscape, so that makes the chances higher.

[Kish]

Given that in the most recent strip Tarquin established that he's of a class (specific class still unknown) subtype warrior, I think we can cross off the possibility that he is solely or primarily a member of a class subtype skillmonkey.

[Nightmarenny]

Also as Tarquin sees morality as limited and stupid I doubt he would take Blackguard. Anything with a moral requirement seems unlikely.