Kraken much?

[Venser]

Hello :)

I was thinking of adding a Kraken as a boss monster for my party today. Its CR is 12, but I kindda thing that he is a bit too much for my party to handle so I would like your opinion.

The party consists of 5 lvl 11 characters;
lvl 1 barbarian/lvl 10 fighter
lvl 11 wizard
lvl 11 paladin
lvl 11 ranger
lvl 7 cleric/lvl 4 radiant servant of Pelor

Not that, with the exception of radiant servant, all classes are from phb and so are all of their feats and spells.

I need two things;
How to simulate a kraken attack(not that this is my first time leading a battle that will take place on a ship during a storm)?
Does a party stand a chance against such monster(he seems a bit too powerful for a cr 12 monster)?

[sonofzeal]

Trust your instincts over the CR guide, especially for aquatic monsters.

[darksolitaire]

I think you are right when you think Kraken is too tough. Unless you have savvy players who are prepared to fight underwater and have access to water breathing, kraken is going to kill them.

[Yora]

You have 5 characters, which includes a wizard and a cleric, so they should have the neccessary options and resources to defeat it. The main question is if they will be able to bring all that potential to bear.
It has 300 hp at AC 20, which at level 11 really isn't that much. Trying to hurt it enough to get it to retreat or die would probably the easiest way to get rid of it.

If it expects a tough fight, it can use control weather and control winds to create wind strong enough to knock down medium characters unless they make a DC 18 Fortitude save every round. That can become a real nuisance.

The big dangers are of course the tentacles. With +44 to grapple, it's pretty much impossible to escape once one gets caught, and all it needs to do that is a single hit with +28 to attack. It could very easily snatch each PC and then dive underwater to drown them before coming back for the next one.
If they try to hide inside the ship, the kraken can easily smash the whole thing appart and then grab everyone out of the water to drown them.

The only way I see to survive such a fight is dealing massive damage in the first two or three rounds of combat and the first time the players will encounter a kraken they'll probably stay rather passive and watch what it can do.
To give them more time, you could have the kraken snatch two or three other sailors first. While it does have 8 attacks per round, you should probably count each arm and tentacle as an individual grappler. With their 4d8+24 damage, the two tentacles are horrible, but the six arms with 2d6+12 damage are much more survivable. The two tentacles are pretty much guaranteed to hit everything with an AC under 30 and will automatically deal an average of 42 damage and do so every round until the target is dead. That said, even when they are quick, one or two of the PCs will quite likely die. But at 11th level that's not a permanent problem if you can recover the corpses.

This fight can be won. However, the PCs should have some time to prepare for the fight with spells and potions, and maybe have a sailor tell them that they have to make it hurt fast and hard, before it has time to really go medieval on the ship. And they don't have to actually kill the beast. At 200 damage, it would be reasonable for it to make a retreat while leaving any dead PCs behind to be raised later. If it is one with heavy armor, have his crushed corpse be smashed into the deck or the armor destroyed, so it floats in the water.
In fact, you probably should kill at least one of the PCs. This will make everyone remember that one fight with the crazy monster that could have easily eaten them all, but they miraculously won. Inside a massive storm. And in the worst case, fudge it a bit. If there's no way they will deal 200 damage before everyone is dead, then make the kraken retreat after just 150 damage. The players will never now how many hp it had left when it ran.

[Sception]

Depending on your wizard's spellbook, with the casters on board they should be able to beat the kraken if they know its coming. If they don't know its coming, and have the wrong spells prepared, it will sink the ship before they have any wan to respond to it.

The CR for the kraken isn't entirely out of line (although that grapple modifier is just too high); but you have to consider environmental modifiers. PCs on a boat can't run away. PCs on a boat are surrounded by a watery deathtrap for miles in all directions. PCs on a boat may not be able to reach or even target a kraken attacking from it's full reach underwater. These things are major CR modifiers. It's like the difference between fighting a wyvern in a large room and fighting a wyvern while making your way across a rickety rope bridge over a vast chasm. In the former case, the wyvern's just a monstrous brute, but in the latter it's a terror that can flying bull rush individual PCs to their death, and if it ever gets angry or hurt or just bored it can attack the bridge to kill them all. Annoyingly some aquatic CRs seem to assume the PCs will be out of their element, and need to be adjusted down if they're well adapted to water, while others do not, and need to be ramped up if the PCs aren't.


So you can run this fight, but have a backup plan for if the PCs lose. If the party loses have the surviving PCs and the corpses of their dead buddies wash up, along with the wreckage of the ship and maybe one or two other survivors, on some deserted island for a resurrection session and a mini-adventure or two to recoup their losses before getting rescued and advancing the plot, possibly to face the same beast again after leveling up a few times to get their revenge. If the PCs wash up missing some of their favorite gear, or if a beloved npc doesn't make it, then it will still feel like a loss and not a cop-out, and their eventual revenge will be all the more sweet.

Alternatively, consider a multiple stage structure to the fight. Start with the kraken attacking the ship, giving the PCs some warning and a couple rounds to buff themselves before they have to get its attention or risk the ship sinking. Then the fight proper between the beast and the PCs, and then in the last part bring in some additional support - maybe some sahaguin shark riders drawn to the blood, who either are in league with the kraken and help attack the PCs if the PCs are pwning it, or are out for revenge against the beast for destroying their village and help the PCs fight it if they're 'in over their heads', but then demand an expensive payment of treasure or trade goods for saving the ship after the combat. The 'wash up on a deserted island' can still be a go to plan if things get out of hand.

[Runestar]

Maybe you could try tricking it into looking into the head of a medusa...:smallcool:

Well, depending on how players can get buffed with freedom of movement prior to combat, the fight might not be that difficult. As noted, if you choose to really play up the kraken's home advantage, it will be a nigh impossible battle.

For instance, melee characters are screwed, because it effectively has 100ft reach and 280ft speed (and you cannot sunder its tentacles if you do not threaten the kraken). A houserule may be in order here.:smallfrown:

As with any monster sporting multiple attacks, I feel the best remedy is to slap it with a slow spell (still a bit of a challenge, it does have modest will saves). Bully for you if you succeed, as this restricts it to just 1 attack/round. :smallamused:

[candycorn]

If the wizard and the cleric are really savvy, it's not a bad fight. Still, it's on the upper bound of a CR 12. For a core group, that's a dangerous boss fight.

[Dr.Epic]

5 level 11's v a CR 12? Yeah, the PCs will definitely win. In fact, it'll probably be too easy.

[candycorn]

5 level 11's v a CR 12? Yeah, the PCs will definitely win. In fact, it'll probably be too easy.

A well played kraken, vs a party of core only 11's?

If the party wizard uses Dominate Monster, has a +4 intelligence item, an 18 intelligence base, and +2 from levels? Less than a 50% chance to hold it for a round.

Yes, the party has no-save options, but the kraken has a lot of reach (30-60 feet), a lot of grapple, SLA's that can hinder multiple enemy actions, and a boatload of HP. Even with the -20 penalty to not be considered grappling, a Kraken has a better than average chance to outgrapple most anything in the party. If it gets the entire party grappled in this way, it can freely move underwater, and drown them all. Yes, likely a couple may have Freedom of Movement, but not all of them.

No, that fight can turn into TPK town, if the party isn't well prepared.

[Fearan]

Oh come on. Flight@blast = dunno any craken. I've thrown a Phrenic Craken subboss at my 12-level 2-members party - even with extra spellikes, they've forced it to retreat due to simply staying out of range and being blasty

[deuxhero]

Speaking of running Krakens, are their tentacles (and Hydra heads) paper thin? They have no hardness.

[candycorn]

Oh come on. Flight@blast = dunno any craken. I've thrown a Phrenic Craken subboss at my 12-level 2-members party - even with extra spellikes, they've forced it to retreat due to simply staying out of range and being blasty

lvl 1 barbarian/lvl 10 fighter
lvl 11 wizard
lvl 11 paladin
lvl 11 ranger
lvl 7 cleric/lvl 4 radiant servant of Pelor

The range in this party seems rather un-rangey, first.

Second, Krakens can control weather, which includes bringing in fogs, heavy rains, and the like, all of which can lower visibility, and thus, the effectiveness of ranged combat.

Yes, they're a melee only monster, but if the party needs to protect the ship, as it's staying 40 feet underwater and bludgeoning it? That impacts the viability of ranged combat.

Perhaps it dominates another animal, such as a whale, and sends it in first?
Perhaps it uses Control Weather to get the wind speed to severe, and then Control Winds to bring in a tornado?

There's a difference between playing a Kraken... and playing a kraken like it's a 21 int creature.

[Jeraa]

Speaking of running Krakens, are their tentacles (and Hydra heads) paper thin? They have no hardness.

Hardness is usually only for objects and some object like creatures (like animated objects.)

Creatures have damage reduction instead. (but neither the hydra or kraken have DR)

[deuxhero]

I know, I just have to be missing something given that makes them as easy to tear apart as a stack of paper (WotC missing that could be possible given its WotC though).

[Alabenson]

I think a major question regarding this fight is how many of the PC's have ready access to freedom of movement. Not only would that spell make fighting underwater a semi-viable tactic, but it would eliminate the threat of the kraken's ability to grapple.

[candycorn]

I think a major question regarding this fight is how many of the PC's have ready access to freedom of movement. Not only would that spell make fighting underwater a semi-viable tactic, but it would eliminate the threat of the kraken's ability to grapple.

After that, you only have to contend with its rather considerable reach (double move for many characters). Thankfully, it's not all that fast, and it has a "withdraw" mechanic, of losing the tentacles. If the wrong character gets a few swings in, it's quite possible that the tentacle requirement for withdrawing could be met fairly quickly.

[Venser]

Well, I have done my best playing Kraken(did not held back one bit) and they have brutally beaten it.

The paladin is the only one who was in major trouble since the kraken grappled him and nearly killed him.

What acutally saved them was cleric's spell wall of blades which he tossed on the kraken's tentacles, dealing brutal damage, and a huge shark which the used to save the paladin who has drowning 280 feet away from them. Wizard was extremely useful, but melee ranger did enough damage to drop the kraken below 60% health in one full attack.

And after that they went on to beat the crap out of a huge red dragon xD

[candycorn]

Well, I have done my best playing Kraken(did not held back one bit) and they have brutally beaten it.

The paladin is the only one who was in major trouble since the kraken grappled him and nearly killed him.

What acutally saved them was cleric's spell wall of blades which he tossed on the kraken's tentacles, dealing brutal damage, and a huge shark which the used to save the paladin who has drowning 280 feet away from them. Wizard was extremely useful, but melee ranger did enough damage to drop the kraken below 60% health in one full attack.Wall of Blades isn't quite that good. Remember that attacking the tentacles is treated as a Sunder attack. Wall of blades doesn't sunder every item that crosses it. The Wall should have only dealt damage to the main Kraken HP, not the individual tentacles.


And after that they went on to beat the crap out of a huge red dragon xDA well built Huge Red Dragon (minimum CR: 13) should be, at the very least, a serious challenge for the party. With second level spells, SR, at least 7 feats, modest SR (that can be increased with feats), Frightful presence, solid AC, and good attack bonuses?

Any one of these could be deadly.
You can raise Frightful presence from DC 21 to 25 with 2 feats. Add on Imperious Command and Never Outnumbered, and you can have half the party running in fear.

Alternately, you can raise SR from 19 to 25 with 3 feats, making spellcasting a tough proposition.

Rapidstrike (claws), Improved Rapidstrike (Claws), Shape Soulmeld (Sphinx Claws), and Open Least Chakra (Hands)? That 4 feat combo will get you 10 attacks and Pounce. If one of your level 2 spells is Wraithstrike? It can get ugly.

Flyby Attack and Snatch? That will let you pick people up and drop them.

This is only a few of the options available. Maximize Breath and Empower Breath? 127 damage, reflex half.

Wild Talent + Expansion? You've just given a dragon better range with its breath weapon, and more attack options.

With 150 foot speed, and one to three of the above abilities, or something else entirely, you can make dragons that have the potential to be a threat to a modestly optimized party.