defense against the arcane arts.

[Draig]

Ok playground, I'm currently in a situation where I need a prime build to help defend against and defeat sorcerers. The ones we've been fighting have a mix between damage spells (lightning/fireball) and a few little tricks. I need a good lv 10 character to go up against them. I was already thinking about having a few levels in Occult Slayer but there might be things I've overlooked or missed so, the question for you Playground is what would your optimal build be if you knew your were going to be fighting an excess of arcane casters?

[zimmerwald1915]

With what character concept are you starting? Or, what is another way of saying the same thing, how much magic, and what sort of magic, is your character comfortable using himself in his fight against these sorcerers?

[A_S]

Divine Defiance (burn a Turn attempt to counterspell as an immediate action) is a good place to start if you like divine casters.

If you want a mundane build, the Spell Reflection ACF from Complete Mage works well against enemies who use a lot of weaponlike spells (rays and the like). You'd want to get your touch AC as high as possible in this case. Also take a look at the Mage Slayer feat and its lineup (Pierce Magical Concealment is a big one).

A build like Rogue 3 / Swashbuckler 3 / Occult Slayer 4 with Daring Outlaw and the Spell Reflection + Spell Sense ACFs wouldn't be bad against low-op fireball chuckers. Finish it off with the last level of Occult Slayer and more Swash, maybe dip some ToB later in the build.

Because you mentioned that they're mostly blasters using Fireballs and Lightning Bolts, I assume the mages you're facing aren't very optimized. If you do start running across well-built arcanists, though, you're going to need some way of beating their action economy manipulation (stuff like Celerity, Contingency, Foresight, Moment of Prescience), and it seems like the best way to do that is just to be a better mage.

[deuxhero]

defeat sorcerers.


Easy: Wizard.

[GreenSerpent]

Best way to deal with Sorcerors is, as with any other caster, Stinking Cloud. Fail their save, knocks out their spellcasting for a good few rounds.

[Cespenar]

When facing unoptimized casters, simply readying an action against interrupting their spell may work pretty well, obviously with a ranged weapon. 2nd level of Occult Slayer can be great help in this endeavor too. Also, there's a +1 weapon enchantment named Magebane in Magic Item Compendium that gives +2 to attack and +2d6 damage against arcane casters.

[SirFredgar]

Cleric1/Wizard3/Master Specialist 6. Pick up Practiced spellcaster to qualify for Devine Defiance, specialize in abjuration. With the addition of Arcane Mastery you should be able to counter all their spells (burning turn attempts as mentioned above) and then use your turn to counter attack. I suggest picking up a wand of lesser acid orb or something, to save spell slots for dispells.

When I had this problem that was the build I used, but I also picked up leadership for a Grapple Druid to really make spell casters sad.

[A_S]

Cleric1/Wizard3/Master Specialist 6. Pick up Practiced spellcaster to qualify for Devine Defiance, specialize in abjuration. With the addition of Arcane Mastery you should be able to counter all their spells (burning turn attempts as mentioned above) and then use your turn to counter attack. I suggest picking up a wand of lesser acid orb or something, to save spell slots for dispells.

Sadly, the FAQ seems to indicate that you can't qualify for Divine Defiance via Practiced Spellcaster: http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871214/Dispelling_38;_Counterspelling_Compilation?post_id =338388114#338388114

[SirFredgar]

Sadly, the FAQ seems to indicate that you can't qualify for Divine Defiance via Practiced Spellcaster: http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871214/Dispelling_38;_Counterspelling_Compilation?post_id =338388114#338388114

Hmmm, that is an interesting bit of info. What was the original source of that post? And it seems to be referring to a PrC prerequiste... and divine defiance says "Prerequisite: ability to turn or rebuke undead, Divine caster level 3rd, "

But I can see how those two are so similiar they could be the same thing. Hmmmmmm guess my build is a DM call now.

EDIT: Yeah, after staring at it for a minute you could always say it's "Divine Caster, 3rd Level." Which makes me sad. Otherwise I'd say go the mage slayer route and throw on an Anti-magic torc or something for good mesure. run up and smash face while ignoring anything they can dish out. They could always fly away, though....

[Randomguy]

A spellcaster would be most optimal, using protection from energy and energy immunity at higher levels, with dispel magic to counter tricks.

If that's not what you're looking for, than you're best bet is something with both spell reflection and evasion, a high touch AC and reflex save and a way to deal damage against them and possibly go through their defenses.

At higher levels, just spell reflection is enough if you can get a ring of evasion, but at level 10 it's a little too expensive.

Some good classes to consider: Occult slayer, warblade, swordsage, monk (only two levels and possibly with the decisive strike ACF), rogue (Only two levels with the bonus feat ACF), barbarian and frenzied berserker or bear warrior.

Two levels in rogue can be thrown into just about any build, for evasion/spell reflection and bonus feats (You don't want to be dependent on sneak attack for damage, there are too many ways for casters to become immune). This works with most builds, but it means it takes longer to be able to get into occult slayer.

Two levels in monk are good for the feats, the AC bonus, the save bonuses, evasion/spell reflection and decisive strike, which works wonders when wielding a quarterstaff as a 2h weapons rather than a double weapon, and is best with a high strength score, a high BAB and power attack. Oddly enough, it would go well with barbarian and then frenzied berserker for that reason, because of supreme and improved power attack. (You'd need to be an ex monk though.)
This monk dip also goes well with swordsage because of the wisdom synergy, but then you might be better off without the ACF.
If you want that wisdom to AC bonus, but also want the AC bonus from armour, you could either go swordsage or be a warforged and enchant your composite plating. The downside is the wisdom penalty, which reduces the bonus you're trying to keep.

Barbarian is great for rage and d12 HD, as well as full BAB which gives early access to occult slayer. Also has the possibility to get into bear warrior or frenzied berserker, and is a good class for the shock trooper+leap attack combo.

Warblade is your other melee option. A lot like barbarian, but trades rage and for maneuvers.

The mage slayer line of feats are good, and it's probably better to take those than to be an ubercharger.

Most arcane casters don't have spot or listen as class skills, so hide and move silently are important, unless you're wearing full plate, in which case the armour check penalty is too much.

Fighter is good for bonus feats (Only two levels), and swordsage is good for non-warblade maneuvers.

Try to get your DM to use fractional BAB rules, since you might be multiclassing a lot.
Here's a sample build: bonus feat rogue 2/Decisive strike Monk 2/X 2/ Occult slayer 4, with X being any full BAB class. Either barbarian, warblade or figthter. Take a race that gives bonuses to con, str or maybe wis, with penalties any stat but those three, or warforged or human.
It makes more sense if the monk levels are before the rogue levels, but that costs you some skill points.

Take improved initiative and weapon focus (quarterstaff) as your rogue bonus feats. From monk you can get stunning fist at 1st level and your choice for second level. For your normal feats, take power attack at level 1, blind fight at level 3, mage slayer at level 6 and pierce magical concealment (Or pierce magical protection, your pick, get the other feat at level 12) at level 9.

This gets you +9 BAB, Base saves: +8 to reflex, +8 to fortitude, +8 1/3 to will (which is better than monk 10- hooray for fractional BAB), spell reflection, evasion, decisive strike, a total of 4 bonus feats and trapfinding. You get a total of 64+10*int mod skill points.

If X is fighter, you get 2 other bonus feats, meaning you don't have to pick between pierce magical concealment and pierce magical protection. Take the thug ACF to gain some class skills and skill points at the cost of heavy armour proficiency.

If X is barbarian, you get fast movement, rage, uncanny dodge and more HP than fighter. It sets you up for frenzied berserker later on, but you still need 3 feats to qualify, so a dip into fighter after you finish occult slayer wouldn't be bad. Even with a dip into fighter, you can only get in the class at level 16, which isn't that bad since you get improved power attack as a capstone, but isn't that great, either. You could rearrange your feats to get in, but the only feats you can really move around are your mage slayer feats and the prerequisites, so that would make you weaker right now. With this build, it's not the greatest choice.

If X is warblade, you get int to reflex saves (Int isn't a very important stat for you, so meh), uncanny dodge, 4 maneuvers known (all of them can be level 2 maneuvers), 3 maneuvers readied and 1 stance known. You also get good hp and heavy armour proficiency.

For this build, your stat priority would be Strength>Con>Wis>Dex>Int>Cha.

[A_S]

Hmmm, that is an interesting bit of info. What was the original source of that post?

Main 3.5 FAQ from the Wizards site (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a), page 30.

[Psyren]

Best way to deal with Sorcerors is, as with any other caster, Stinking Cloud. Fail their save, knocks out their spellcasting for a good few rounds.

I wouldn't say "any other caster," as quite a few of them have good fort saves (especially the divine ones.)

Even without that, there are plenty of ways to protect yourself from this spell.

[Endarire]

One defense against casters is lots of minions.

K's Revised Necromancer Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5584.0) works well. Practical Demonkeeping (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5573.0) is for planar binding, etc.

If you prefer the temporary minions, see Mastering the Malconvoker (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=289.0).

[Randomguy]

One defense against casters is lots of minions.


Not really. Casters have tons of area spells, like fireball and the like.

If you want minions anyways, take leadership. (It's not just for the cohort). If you want them to be useful, have them all use aid another on you.

[Fouredged Sword]

Rouge 2 / monk 2 / fighter 2 / swordsage 4.

Take the spell reflection ACF for monk 2, use monk (read the UA alternate feat options) and fighter to pick up the prereqs for mage slayer and the follow up feats.

Pick up some nice shadow hand feats for mobility and the diamond mind save boosters.

Get up next to them with teleports and kill them with a focused attack (monk ACF)

[sonofzeal]

Rouge 2 / monk 2 / fighter 2 / swordsage 4.

Take the spell reflection ACF for monk 2, use monk (read the UA alternate feat options) and fighter to pick up the prereqs for mage slayer and the follow up feats.

Pick up some nice shadow hand feats for mobility and the diamond mind save boosters.

Get up next to them with teleports and kill them with a focused attack (monk ACF)
The Monk and Fighter and Swordsage elements all make sense to me... but I'm confused where cosmetics comes into the whole thing. :smallconfused::smallconfused::smallconfused:

[hex0]

Rouge 2 / monk 2 / fighter 2 / swordsage 4.

Take the spell reflection ACF for monk 2, use monk (read the UA alternate feat options) and fighter to pick up the prereqs for mage slayer and the follow up feats.

Pick up some nice shadow hand feats for mobility and the diamond mind save boosters.

Get up next to them with teleports and kill them with a focused attack (monk ACF)

You need Mettle as well. Possibly Pious Templar? Hexblade

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Ok playground, I'm currently in a situation where I need a prime build to help defend against and defeat sorcerers. The ones we've been fighting have a mix between damage spells (lightning/fireball) and a few little tricks. I need a good lv 10 character to go up against them. I was already thinking about having a few levels in Occult Slayer but there might be things I've overlooked or missed so, the question for you Playground is what would your optimal build be if you knew your were going to be fighting an excess of arcane casters?

Assuming you are facing relatively low-op casters (i.e. using a lot of blastomancy with a side of Save or Suck), here's a suggestion:

1) Energy Resistance. It's better than Evasion, because it's 'I don't care if I make the save or not, I'm not taking any damage anyways'

2) Mettle. Most of the 'save or screwed' spells are either Will or Fort save based.

3) High will and fort saves, so that Mettle actually does some good

4) immunities to some of the more obnoxious status effects, for when you roll that Natural 1.

So, now that we have our basic laundry list of 'no', let's see how we can go about getting it.

For energy resistance, I'd suggest going into Ironsoul Forgemaster (Magic of Incarnum). Basically, it's Dwarven Defender done *RIGHT*. And one of the first abilities you get is to pick up a shield and get resistance to all the common blastomancy flavors (including Acid *AND* sonic).

For mettle, you can either go into Crusader, or go take a dip into Witch Hunter from Tome of Magic. You can also go Hexblade to pick up some debuffing at the same time.

For saves, you have several options. If you go to Tome of Battle, there's this cute line of maneuvers in Diamond Mind that replace a Concentration check with a saving throw. Also, if you're doing a lot of incarnum stuff, there's things that give bonuses to saves there. A Cloak of Resistance is, of course, mandatory, unless your party has a caster willing to cast something like Greater Resistance on you.

For immunities... there's a few things you can do. Necklace of Adaptation is pretty good at being immune to gasses, like Cloudkill. Ring of Freedom of Movement makes you immune to a whole host of problems. If you can get Death Ward cast on you, that makes you immune to a whole 'nother host of problems.

[Elboxo]

You need: Touch AC, High saves, Evasion, Spell resistance ( Preferably ) and some immunities...

Well you can start with Warforged, Evasion is generally easy enough to get through dips, Touch AC can be boosted, of course the other option is to not let them touch you ( Displacement/Blink/Any method to interrupt them )

SR is the tricky one.

Rangers can take Favored Enemy: Arcanist :)

Warforged Wild-shape Ranger with Favored Enemy: Arcanist, dip in sword-sage and Monk for Evasion/saves/Unarmed Strike, Knowledge Devotion on a ranger wouldn't hurt either.
Then take a few levels in War Shaper and a dip in Soul Eater and a level in Spirit Lion Barbarian

If you have a spare feat, Ability Focus: Poison ( No idea if this works or not, someone correct me )
-> Wildshape into fleshraker
-> Grow all the claws
-> Charge

On each hit you give out a negative level ( Removes some casting, takes down their saves and they lose HP for each level, and poison.

After the First hit you gain +4 Strength for 24 hours, and other things ( A laser, +4 Con ) bonuses depending on how many levels on Soul Eater you take.

So with a full attack you get 4 attacks ( 4 Negative levels, 4 chances at 1d6 poison damage ) and you have Favored Enemy: Arcanist and Knowledge Devotion to boost your To-Hit and Damage. You also have Evasion, from monk, and when not-shaped you have a buttload of immunities because you are warforged, and can punch with your Unarmed Strike.

Not optimal, but it would be fun and decently effective.


Initiative is everything in caster fights. Catch them unawares.

[Fax Celestis]

I'll go against what everyone else is saying here and take spellthief. Spellthieves are excellent against spellcasters, particularly spontaneous ones.

[hex0]

I'll go against what everyone else is saying here and take spellthief. Spellthieves are excellent against spellcasters, particularly spontaneous ones.

Especially if they can auto-steal such as by Neraphim abilities or Impromptu Sneak Attack.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I would strongly advise against SR, as it can bounce beneficial spells as well, unless you start eating away at your action economy.

If you have problems with Blastomancy, the solution is Energy Resistance. If you have a problem with Save or Suck, then stack your saves, or get immunities. SR is made of fail.

[Fax Celestis]

Especially if they can auto-steal such as by Neraphim abilities or Impromptu Sneak Attack.

I'm a fan of a wand of wracking touch.