[3.P] Prestige Classes as Base Classes?

[Novawurmson]

I've had the idea for a while, but a recent thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=225225) reminded me of it...

Let's say your DM is starting a new game and tells you "In this next game, we're starting at level 1 and going to level 10. In addition to any base class from 3.5 or Pathfinder, you may start as any prestige class at level 1 and level in it. However, you may not take a level of any other class besides that one until you have fulfilled the normal prerequisites of the prestige class.

"For example, you could start as an Assassin (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/core-rulebook/assassin) at level 1, but could not take a level in any other class until you had 2 ranks in Disguise, 5 ranks in Stealth, and had killed a person for no reason besides because you were an assassin.

"If you gain spellcasting levels, you pick an appropriate base class you could have used to enter the prestige class and gain spells as if you had gained a level of that class."

1. What prestige classes would you enjoy playing from level 1?

2. What are the most overpowered, stupid things you could come up with to break the system? What stipulations would have to be set in place to prevent though things from happening?

3. What problems would you foresee with this system?

I included an obvious problem: Death Attack at level 1. With an 18 in INT, that's a (situational) DC 15 Fortitude save against death. Not amazing, but certainly beyond the normal reach of a level one character. A reasonable DM might give a weak version of the ability (save versus daze?) at level 1, which is upgraded to save versus death at 6. What does the Playground think?

[deuxhero]

Warmind, any dual advancement class or prehaps Blackguard. I'm not proficient in anything for Warmind, which is not that big an issue (I have the 1 BAB for an exotic weapon feat. Armor is painful untill I get )

Obviously full caster classes are cheese and thurge classes are stinky cheese.

[FMArthur]

I included an obvious problem: Death Attack at level 1. With an 18 in INT, that's a (situational) DC 15 Fortitude save against death. Not amazing, but certainly beyond the normal reach of a level one character. A reasonable DM might give a weak version of the ability (save versus daze?) at level 1, which is upgraded to save versus death at 6. What does the Playground think?

Melee one-hit-kills become LESS common as you progress further from level one due to weapon damage not scaling and often surpassing total hit points at levels 1-2. Death Attack would not be at all remarkable, especially for all its conditions.

[Alabenson]

Of particular note would be any prestige class that gives its own 9th level spells, such as Sublime Chord or Ur Priest. Gaining 9th levels spells before level 10 would be ludicrously powerful.

[Novawurmson]

Of particular note would be any prestige class that gives its own 9th level spells, such as Sublime Chord or Ur Priest. Gaining 9th levels spells before level 10 would be ludicrously powerful.

I knew about Ur Priest, didn't realize Sublime Chord could do it, too. Are there any other prestige classes that can get 9ths in 10 levels?

[Zeta Kai]

Of particular note would be any prestige class that gives its own 9th level spells, such as Sublime Chord or Ur Priest. Gaining 9th levels spells before level 10 would be ludicrously powerful.

Although your caster level would be in the gutter. And any competent DM wouldn't allow those anyway. Or, if they accidentally let it slip in, they'd just kill your character ASAP.

[Alabenson]

I knew about Ur Priest, didn't realize Sublime Chord could do it, too. Are there any other prestige classes that can get 9ths in 10 levels?

The Beholder Mage does (though that class is typically banned from PC use), as do the Blighter and Apostle of Peace.

[Hazzardevil]

Shapeshifter and warshaper have a problem under this system.
They both will never meet the requirements without doppelgangers or something under this system.

[darksolitaire]

Some prestige classes have no proficiencies, so if you use them, you'll take penalties to using weapons and armor. Also, PrCs with separate spell progression are going to be strong. Black Guards and Assassins would be much better then current Paladins and Rogues, and Suel Arcanamach would gain spells faster then wizard. It all comes down to intended power level, I guess.

[Urpriest]

Monster PrCs would be interesting, as you could take them without being a member of that race at the penalty of never being able to level up beyond them. Beholder Mage has already been mentioned, but Illithid Savant is another interesting example.

As for 9ths in 10 levels, Divine Crusader as well.

[Madcrafter]

Some prestige classes have no proficiencies, so if you use them, you'll take penalties to using weapons and armor. Also, PrCs with separate spell progression are going to be strong. Black Guards and Assassins would be much better then current Paladins and Rogues, and Suel Arcanamach would gain spells faster then wizard. It all comes down to intended power level, I guess.

IIRC no 3.5 edition PrCs give proficiency with any weapons or armour. So that is somewhat of an issue (that could be easily ruled away using the same method as the caster base class).

As for nice classes, thrallherd for one, or really any PrC in the up two tiers category.

This system makes even bad PrCs sometimes work better though, since you don't have to sacrifice lots if they have stupidly difficult entry requirements for their power level.

[TheGeckoKing]

IIRC no 3.5 edition PrCs give proficiency with any weapons or armour. So that is somewhat of an issue (that could be easily ruled away using the same method as the caster base class).

If this was going to happen, then a houserule would have to be put into place. Maybe something like;

Low BaB - Simple Weapon and Light Armour proficiency.
Med BaB - Simple + Martial Weapon Proficiency, Light and Med Armour proficiency and Shield Proficiency (bar Tower Shields).
Full BaB - Simple + Martial Weapon Proficiency, Full Armour proficiency, and Full Shield Proficiency. Hell, maybe a bonus EWP feat.

[Urpriest]

IIRC no 3.5 edition PrCs give proficiency with any weapons or armour.

False, but near enough that it makes little difference. Dragonslayer for one.

[Treblain]

I think it will work pretty well. Obviously some prestige classes won't work, but you'll be able to spot them immediately, due to them having abilities clearly meant for higher levels. For theurge classes, you can either ban them or lower their progressions, or require you to qualify normally (eg, use Mystic Theurge to advance assassin and Death Delver casting).

Another thing: certain classes will be impossible to 'escape' by meeting their own requirements if they require class features they don't receive, so you'll have to houserule a way out. Again, you'll be able to spot the problem immediately, so just come up with a quick fix.

Classes I would like to play: Chameleon, Primeval (Frostburn, full BAB wildshape into a dinosaur), Suel Arcanamach, Warchanter, and Seeker of the Song.

[FMArthur]

Yeah, any prestige class that requires a particular class feature is pretty much inescapable because it's not going to give it to you again in its progression.

[Madcrafter]

And on the same note, a some classes that require a certain class feature will use that class feature in their own progressions, making those abilities unusable if a character were to prestige right away.

[Viktyr Gehrig]

Because of the way I handle multiclassing, I've converted a few Prestige Classes into regular 20 level base classes-- from before I worked out how to allow them normally.

[Eldan]

I'd probably go for some kind of dual-advancement class. Jade Phoenix mage, maybe? Or Tenebrous Apostate?

[Namfuak]

Clearly you need to create a Planar Shepard, and then become a druid (or give the class the ability to wild shape so it meets the requirements). If you gave the class the ability to wildshape, you could put the divine spellcaster ranks into cleric instead.

[0Megabyte]

Oh, hi. It looks like you guys beat me to it! I was planning on making this thread, right about, say... now, but since you guys already have it up and running I might as well come in and add my 2c...

First thing, my thoughts are still mostly related to E6. Using prestige classes as base in a game that goes all the way to level 20 does give new challenges... but there's also a lot of overlap.

First, the more general parts, related to the thread so far!

---

Considering the problems involved with prerequisites, I'd say that one shouldn't bother with them, anymore than one would bother putting prereqs on a base class. That being said, some prestige classes are more powerful than their counterparts. Like, an Assassin 1 definitely outclasses a Rogue 1. And things like Theurges can't work, as there's nothing for them to work with.

And what of the many classes that advance spellcasting or somesuch? Doesn't work as a first level class... and I can't see just giving them, say, wizard or cleric spellcasting from the start! But... but.

I can see making them require a level of the base class first. Especially if you focus on the ones that don't give full caster levels. Like a wizard 1/swiftblade x. (Btw, that class doesn't work well as is for this...)

Anyway, now on to thoughts about E6:

Many 10-level classes can be dropped down to 6 levels, plus a capstone feat and maybe another relevant feat. Assassin and Blackguard seem powerful, for example.

But what about five level classes? What about theurge classes?

Well I say... why not give a five level class a first level in something else? Take something like Weretouched Master. Why not peg the first level of Barbarian or Ranger, and then go straight on? Eldeen Ranger obviously needs the first level of Ranger. Abjurant Champion should have wizard 1. Etc.

Three level classes could be thrown in as is, at some point during regular progression. Heck... why not add a three level class and combine it with a "base" prestige class?

Theurges... why not just make the pre-requisite merely 1st level spells for both types, or whatnot, and have a good four levels of it or so?

Ur-priest, someone mentioned in the other thread: Why not just make it a 3 level prestige class, which requires you to not have cleric spells? That would fix the "gets higher level spell" problem, but keeps it very strong, in E6 terms.