Kraken Skeleton?

[Madara]

I was pondering what my high level necromancer would try to get as a skeleton minion(For style and optimization). Dragons are over done, and I wanted something unusual.
So I will direct your attention to the Kraken: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/kraken.htm

I have several questions.
1. Suggestions on how to make it fly? Since its undead, it doesn't need to breath. Could I Polymorph any object into a corpse so it has the Air subtype, would that give it a fly speed?

2. When talking about its special qualities, do any of them "improve attacks"(and are kept)? The entry doesn't specify that they only work underwater(even though that's RAI), so could it use Jet on land/in the Air?

3. Would it be worth my time to have it? It would make a great Battle Field Controller.

4. Other thoughts?

Edit: To clarify, I'm thinking from a player's point of view, using RAW

[pffh]

Sorry bud but to make a skeleton I think the monster needs you know a skeleton.

[TheArsenal]

Bonegrafting:

The Necromancer grafts bonewings to the thing, composed of hundreds of sewn together bones and a regenarated on skin tissue: 2:

Roleplay its size. Make a single tentacle 5X5X40 in leangh. Will make for a creative and fun encounter.

[Dr.Epic]

Sorry bud but to make a skeleton I think the monster needs you know a skeleton.

Does it actually say that under the template for skeleton? If not, take advantage of this hilarious loophole.:smallwink:

[Zeta Kai]

I call shenanigans. A tentacle has no bones, so it just won't work. Pick something else.

And yes, it says exactly that:


"Skeleton (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/skeleton.htm)" is an acquired template that can be added to any corporeal creature (other than an undead) that has a skeletal system (referred to hereafter as the base creature).

[Ravens_cry]

Dr.Epic

"Skeleton" is an acquired template that can be added to any corporeal creature (other than an undead) that has a skeletal system.
[bolded for emphases]

[Madara]

If I made it a zombie?(makes it lamer, but I could still work with it.)

[Ravens_cry]

If I made it a zombie?(makes it lamer, but I could still work with it.)
Oddly enough, no (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/zombie.htm).

"Zombie" is an acquired template that can be added to any corporeal creature (other than an undead) that has a skeletal system
I think some more exotic undead templates may allow it, but not the base ones in the SRD.
As a DM, I might personally allow it, but that is a houserule.

[Madara]

This makes me very sad. I would have enjoyed a flying grapple mount with its tentacles flailing.

[Alabenson]

If I made it a zombie?(makes it lamer, but I could still work with it.)

The only problem I foresee with making it a zombie would be dependant on how you're animating it. If you're using animate dead, then I believe you can't zombify anything with over 10 base HD without running into the max HD rules for the spell.

[Madara]

I suppose its back to digging around in Lib Mortal for some obscure undead template from create undead...

[Zombimode]

I think some more exotic undead templates may allow it, but not the base ones in the SRD.
As a DM, I might personally allow it, but that is a houserule.

Corpse Creature from BoVD, which is a Zombie++, works though. The entry mentions Create Greater Undead can be used to create Corpse Creatures. Nice detail about Corpse Creature? It doesnt change Int.

[Madara]

That could work, I also found one(just one) from LM, Umbral Creature. Now to figure out how to make one, or I'll use the Corpse Creature.

[Ravens_cry]

Zombie Cthulhu rides again!:smallbiggrin:

[Madara]

This bring up another problem, as it remains an intelligent undead. How can I control it? It has 20HD which is ridiculous for rebuking. Otherwise the template looks beautiful.

[Tokuhara]

Hang on...

You can make a Skeleton Shark, but not a Kraken? What gives?

[Zombimode]

This bring up another problem, as it remains an intelligent undead. How can I control it? It has 20HD which is ridiculous for rebuking. Otherwise the template looks beautiful.

*rereads the create undead spell*
oh, there was a hatch...


Hang on...

You can make a Skeleton Shark, but not a Kraken? What gives?

Well, have you ever seen any skeletal remains of a kraken? Probably not, because there arent any.

[Madara]

Well, have you ever seen any skeletal remains of a kraken? Probably not, because there arent any.

I guess Shark's skeletons count, despite not being made of bone. They do, technically have a skeleton.

[Urpriest]

I guess Shark's skeletons count, despite not being made of bone. They do, technically have a skeleton.

Squids have a plate-thingy that's also made of cartilage, though.

I must admit, seeing a "Kraken Skeleton" that's just a giant plate of cartilage trying to savage a party of adventurers would be pretty hilarious.

[Madara]

I must admit, seeing a "Kraken Skeleton" that's just a giant plate of cartilage trying to savage a party of adventurers would be pretty hilarious.

And this, this is one of the beauties of DnD

[Ravens_cry]

Hang on...

You can make a Skeleton Shark, but not a Kraken? What gives?
It may not be bone, but it is still a vertebrate with an internal skeleton. At most, a Kraken would likely have a small, atrophied internal shell if they are like the non-nautilus Cephalopoda, which most descriptions and even the etymology might attest to; the word Kraken possibly coming from a word meaning "uprooted tree".

[Zeta Kai]

Yeah, if you could do it, you'd end up with a ball of cartilage the size of a small car, just squicking up the whole place.

[dgnslyr]

Hmm, if the Kraken's a bit like a cuttlefish, it would have a cuttlebone (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuttlebone), which while not quite a skeleton, is still a rigid internal structure, so close enough? Squid have something like it, but it's not quite as developed, I think. I guess it could be a close enough approximation to a skeleton, but then you have a flying cuttlebone, which is not exactly the same as a flying kraken.

[Madara]

So either I can turn it into a freakish skeleton/cartridge blob thing, and it would be complicated to make it useful. Or I need to figure out a way to control it as a corpse creature(was looking at boosting DC on Command Undead)

[OracleofWuffing]

So either I can turn it into a freakish skeleton/cartridge blob thing, and it would be complicated to make it useful.
Wait wait wait wait wait. Do the rules say you need flesh to make a tentacle attack? I think you get to keep your natural weapons unless they require flesh... :smallbiggrin:

[Novawurmson]

There are squid fossils (http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_ZHv_I4h7INY/TJa9WQPuDXI/AAAAAAAAE0k/TOX7zT50aKM/s1600/acanthoteuthis-squid-fossil-late-jurassic-period-germany-on-display-at-smithsonian-museum-of-natural-history-august-2010.jpg). Revived Fossil (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20041001a&page=3) says they need a skeletal system, unfortunately.

[Bhaakon]

I must admit, seeing a "Kraken Skeleton" that's just a giant plate of cartilage trying to savage a party of adventurers would be pretty hilarious.

Which would allow the necromancer to say, "the pen is mightier than the sword!"

[Ravens_cry]

Which would allow the necromancer to say, "the pen is mightier than the sword!"
Took me a second to get that.
Nice.:smallamused:

[Slipperychicken]

Wait wait wait wait wait. Do the rules say you need flesh to make a tentacle attack? I think you get to keep your natural weapons unless they require flesh... :smallbiggrin:

A Kraken's tentacles are made of flesh. Without flesh, there are no tentacles. Without tentacles, there are no tentacle attacks.

[OracleofWuffing]

A Kraken's tentacles are made of flesh.
The Kraken's (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/kraken.htm) entry does not mention the word "flesh" at all, and neither does the entry on Tentacle (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#tentacle) natural attacks, so if you'd please do us the favor of pointing out where you read that?

[Eldan]

Actually, Krakens belong to the rare subclass Ossimolusca. They have bones in all their tentacles.

*nods and slowly smokes his pipe*

[Zombimode]

The Kraken's (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/kraken.htm) entry does not mention the word "flesh" at all, and neither does the entry on Tentacle (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#tentacle) natural attacks, so if you'd please do us the favor of pointing out where you read that?

What are you trying to argue here? That the Kraken (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM35_gallery/MM35_PG162.jpg) doesnt use its arms and tentacles to make its arm and tentacle attacks? If yes, then let me tell you that this is not a very convincing argument.

[Madara]

Hmmm, this is difficult. I'm wondering, since the Kraken isn't an animal, in DnD its a unique creature. Besides, its not like the MM tells us if something has a skeleton or not, and the attack doesn't say its tentacles aren't made out of bone...

Edit:Ninja'd

[Cerlis]

I say if the entry doesnt say a kraken doesnt have a skeleton then you dont have to pretend it does.

Its a magical creature that is huge. Sure maybe a giant squid, with their small ropey tentacles might be able to support their weight (of their tentacles) partially outside of water. BUt a Kraken? with its tree trunk like tentacles? I find it highly unlikely.

I think its reasonable that for such a large creature, it COULD be supported by a cartilage skeleton.

[Ravens_cry]

Actually, Krakens belong to the rare subclass Ossimolusca. They have bones in all their tentacles.

*nods and slowly smokes his pipe*
So . . . "of bone soft"?:smallconfused:

[Madara]

I think we'll just close our eyes to reality and pretend it has a skeleton, in fact, while we're at it, any monster in the MM that doesn't Specificity say it lacks a skeleton, has one, and are therefore viable targets to Animate Dead

[Coidzor]

Squidbones strike again, I see.

[Eldan]

So . . . "of bone soft"?:smallconfused:

It's magic bone.

[Ravens_cry]

It's magic bone.
That's not what you said etymologically. :smalltongue:

[IncoherentEssay]

If the Kraken can be argued to have a skeleton (no matter how limited), you could have your zombie squid by using the Pale Master prc's Deathless Master's Touch, a Fort vs death touch attack that animates the dead creature as a zombie as per the MM template, bypassing the 10 HD cap of animate dead (the zombie template specifies that 10+ HD critters cannot be animated as zombies by animate dead, but does not forbid them otherwise).

As a bonus DMT has the newly minted zombie under your control regardless of HD and not counting against any control caps.

[nyarlathotep]

All of a giant squid's suction cups are lines with chitin in order to make cuts, so as long as your DM is willing to consider that a part of the skeletal system they do in fact have bones on their tentacles, and most artwork presents the kraken as having barbs on their tentacles.

[Ravens_cry]

Bones aren't made of chitin, that's the stuff insects use for their exoskeleton.
Like I said, though not RAW, I would allow a zombie squid, but not a skeleton squid as the bones are not connected.

[Calanon]

Does it actually say that under the template for skeleton? If not, take advantage of this hilarious loophole.:smallwink:

Skeleton Fungus... oh damn...:smallconfused:

[Madara]

So I just need to cast Permanency: Overland flight on it, and add a saddle :smallcool:

[Calanon]

So I just need to cast Permanency: Overland flight on it, and add a saddle :smallcool:

You'd have to check with your DM if this is possible because Permanency only works on certain spells however the general rule of thumb for using it on other spells is that it is 500xp X Spell level or something like that

[Madara]

That's true... I'll just have to use item creation.

[Randrew]

Octopuses have a hydrostatic skeleton (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrostatic_skeleton). Your skeletal kraken is composed to negative energy charged water in which is dissolved a soup of what was once a magical cephalopod.

[nyarlathotep]

Bones aren't made of chitin, that's the stuff insects use for their exoskeleton.
Like I said, though not RAW, I would allow a zombie squid, but not a skeleton squid as the bones are not connected.

So I typed that last post in a hurry. I know bones aren't chitin but bug exoskeletons and octopus beaks are. Basically it could be argued they are a part of a skeletal system just as much as the shark's cartilage bones.

[Ravens_cry]

So I typed that last post in a hurry. I know bones aren't chitin but bug exoskeletons and octopus beaks are. Basically it could be argued they are a part of a skeletal system just as much as the shark's cartilage bones.
Since the game doesn't define what counts as a "skeletal system", we are forced to use the common, dictionary definition (http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/skeletal+system). And a shark skeleton is a whole lot closer to that definition than an exoskeleton or an octopus beak.

[NineThePuma]

Octopuses have a hydrostatic skeleton (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrostatic_skeleton). Your skeletal kraken is composed to negative energy charged water in which is dissolved a soup of what was once a magical cephalopod.

The mental image this envokes is made of win and awesome.

[Alefiend]

There are squid fossils (http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_ZHv_I4h7INY/TJa9WQPuDXI/AAAAAAAAE0k/TOX7zT50aKM/s1600/acanthoteuthis-squid-fossil-late-jurassic-period-germany-on-display-at-smithsonian-museum-of-natural-history-august-2010.jpg). Revived Fossil (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20041001a&page=3) says they need a skeletal system, unfortunately.

There are also leaf fossils. Does this mean we can have skeletal plants?

[Kalirren]

yeah. a Kraken skeleton would be a giant animated squid beak.

Pursuant to one above suggestion, though, Pale Master could easily get a Kraken zombie going with said squid beak. Which is more than good enough, IMHO.

[Coidzor]

Octopuses have a hydrostatic skeleton (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrostatic_skeleton). Your skeletal kraken is composed to negative energy charged water in which is dissolved a soup of what was once a magical cephalopod.


The mental image this envokes is made of win and awesome.

This is now a thing in my mind. I may also make this a thing in homebrew if no one more enterprising than myself beats me to the punch with something groovy.

Ah, GITP, I love you sometimes.

[OracleofWuffing]

What are you trying to argue here? That the Kraken (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM35_gallery/MM35_PG162.jpg) doesnt use its arms and tentacles to make its arm and tentacle attacks? If yes, then let me tell you that this is not a very convincing argument.
That is not even remotely what I'm arguing here, and I kind of wonder how you even got that. :smallconfused:

What I am arguing is that, given the concept that a Kraken can receive the Skeleton template, said Kraken would not lose its weapons by Rules as Written. This is because the Skeleton template retains all natural weapons of the base creature except for attacks that can't work without flesh. There is no text stating that a Kraken needs flesh in order to make a Tentacle, Arm, or Bite attack, so that'd mean you'd get to retain your Tentacle, Arm, and Bite attacks as per the template's description.

Granted, perhaps taking the given statement necessary and then applying RAW is a bit cherry-pickish, but it's fun and leads to discussion.

[erikun]

There are squid fossils (http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_ZHv_I4h7INY/TJa9WQPuDXI/AAAAAAAAE0k/TOX7zT50aKM/s1600/acanthoteuthis-squid-fossil-late-jurassic-period-germany-on-display-at-smithsonian-museum-of-natural-history-august-2010.jpg). Revived Fossil (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20041001a&page=3) says they need a skeletal system, unfortunately.
There are bacteria fossils, not to mention tons of plant fossils. Something does not need a skeletal system (endo or otherwise) to be fossilized.


I think we'll just close our eyes to reality and pretend it has a skeleton, in fact, while we're at it, any monster in the MM that doesn't Specificity say it lacks a skeleton, has one, and are therefore viable targets to Animate Dead
Skeletal Gelatenous Cubes?


Octopuses have a hydrostatic skeleton (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrostatic_skeleton). Your skeletal kraken is composed to negative energy charged water in which is dissolved a soup of what was once a magical cephalopod.
So a skeletal octopus would be a collection of water pressure? This idea is just getting weirder and weirder...

[Coidzor]

Skeletal Gelatenous Cubes?

So it's just the skins and hollow? Awesome.


So a skeletal octopus would be a collection of water pressure? This idea is just getting weirder and weirder...

Sort of like Riverine, really.

[Venser]

Get a bunch of bones na raise them to look like a kraken xD

On the other hand, if you really want it, you can just make it possible. The DM is always right.

[Cerlis]

Since the game doesn't define what counts as a "skeletal system", we are forced to use the common, dictionary definition (http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/skeletal+system). And a shark skeleton is a whole lot closer to that definition than an exoskeleton or an octopus beak.

an exoskeleton is a skeleton

its just a skeleton

in the exo
.

I like the last post idea. A giant bone Kraken made from elephant, whale, and human skeletons would be awesome.

-

Also its not like what anyone else decides will infringe on your own campaign. So lets not shut down the creative process.

[OracleofWuffing]

Skeletal Gelatenous Cubes?
Actually, those do appear to be depicted (http://img835.imageshack.us/img835/8493/mm35pg201.jpg) with a skeletal system. :smallwink:

Useful niche for a monk #2.

[Ravens_cry]

an exoskeleton is a skeleton

its just a skeleton

in the exo


It doesn't say skeleton, it says "skeletal system". There is apparently a difference.
From the link, which references medical dictionaries,
"all of the bones and cartilage of the body that collectively provide the supporting framework for the muscles and organs."
Bolded for emphases. The other relevant quotes are similar.
Besides, if a kraken is like a squid, cuttlefish or octopus, it also lacks an exoskeleton as well.

[Madara]

If you ignore the picture of it in the monster manual(claim you only have the SRD), we could theoretically claim that it doesn't resemble an octopus at all, more like some sort of clam, with tentacles, that happens to spit ink and jet backwards. :smallwink:

[NineThePuma]

SRD has a picture.

[Madara]

I've never noticed the little eye thing until now, thank you, now I can see the picture.

Also, I've solved one problem. If I was an Archevist, I'd use the Winged Mount Spell to grant it a fly speed of 60ft.(It grows wings) :amused: