clericzilla

[limejuicepowder]

I totally love the idea of a cleric that persists buffs on him to last all day, then smashing faces along with his spells. I've come up with several characters to fluff-wise fit these numbers, but I have a problem:

How is this a good strategy?

It seems to me that I am spending nearly all or all of my feats to persist buffs that essentially make me as good as a mediocre fighter. Yes I still have the remainder of my spells, but I'm spending a huge amount of resources to do something many other classes do a lot more naturally. What am I missing? Why is clericzilla considered good optimization?

[Yuki Akuma]

You are not as good as a mediocre fighter. You're better than a fighter.

You have invalidated his entire class, and you have spells besides.

It's a good strategy because the faster enemies die the less likely you and your companions are to die, basically.

[limejuicepowder]

You are not as good as a mediocre fighter. You're better than a fighter.

You have invalidated his entire class, and you have spells besides.

As good as a good fighter in melee huh? So when's the last time you've seen room in a clericzilla build for power attack, improved bullrush, leap attack, shock trooper, knockdown, combat expertise, and improved trip? Because that's just the basis of a "good fighter." And that's not even counting or comparing to ToB classes, largely the standard of good melee characters.

Like I said, why would a cleric spend a huge amount of resources buffing themselves up to be equal to a below average melee build?

[Gandariel]

i don't know how you're doing, but the "usual" Modus Operandi in doing this is taking the Undeath and Planning domain (for free Extend spell and Extra turning)
actually taking Persist as your 1st level feat and taking DMM:Persist as a flaw of if you're human, so that you begin persisting at first level.
Of course first level spells are not that great, in fact you could pospone it, but it's good anyway.
Popular persisted spells are Divine power and Righteous might.
With these two spells alone, persisted, you're better than a fighter, and as you just saw it didn't cost that many resources..

[limejuicepowder]

i don't know how you're doing, but the "usual" Modus Operandi in doing this is taking the Undeath and Planning domain (for free Extend spell and Extra turning)
actually taking Persist as your 1st level feat and taking DMM:Persist as a flaw of if you're human, so that you begin persisting at first level.
Of course first level spells are not that great, in fact you could pospone it, but it's good anyway.
Popular persisted spells are Divine power and Righteous might.
With these two spells alone, persisted, you're better than a fighter, and as you just saw it didn't cost that many resources..

To persist two spells you need 14 turning attempts - with only one extra turning feat, you would need a charisma score of 24; in a stat that is mostly a dump for clerics otherwise. At level 9, those two spells together would give a +14 bonus to str, +4 to con, full base attack bonus, and a small amount of DR. You would have at most 3 feats left over, but probably only 2 - I see no way to get 24 charisma, so another extra turning feat is required. Combat expertise and improved trip would probably be the way to go, what with the size and strength increases. Or power attack and cleave? Is that really as good a pure fighter with the 10 feats he would get?

[ericgrau]

I'd honestly like to see or get a link to a well made build at levels 5,10 and 15. It seems to be a lot of work and DMM persist cheese just to get a point or two higher... and then the fighter grabs melee weapon mastery. And then shock trooper or some such already mentioned. So I'd like to see something that's actually well put together.

I've seen 1 build but it was pretty poorly done and explained. It was behind in power and the poster kept veering off of the discussion.

[Urpriest]

My understanding of the situation is less that you're dramatically more powerful than the Fighter at his own game (though permanent Large size and high Str from Righteous Might does help) and more that the Fighter's game is largely unnecessary. Much as you can heal with just a few out of combat Vigor line spells from a wand, you can "Fighter" with just full BAB, Large size, and a decent Str. Your actions are still better spent casting spells, even as the most bog-standard Clericzilla. It's just that if anyone ever needed a Fighter, you can do the job instead. There's maybe a minor exception for chargers, but even there you really should have a mailman for the job instead.

[lord pringle]

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=420.0

[Piggy Knowles]

Agreed with many of the above posters. The reason you're "better" at being a fighter is not because you're doing more damage than they are - it's because you can adequately fill their role, but also do a million other things.

My own experience playing a clericzilla (actually an archer cleric, but still) is that my offensive potential was adequate, although not as good as a dedicated martial character. However, my defense was significantly better (I know that defense doesn't win fights, except that it sort of does, especially when defense includes immunity to a lot of opposing effects that would otherwise completely incapacitate the fighter). And again, I always had things to do when the fighter's abilities were NOT relevant.

You can feasibly make a cleric that is better at straight-up damage than a fighter, usually either by finding a way to get a lot of actions in a single round (hi Ruby Knight Vindicator), or by dedicating your feats to duplicating a lot of the fighter's tricks. But I'd much rather create a cleric that adequately covers the fighter's role, and is still ALSO a cleric.

[Ithandor]

I'm playing a DMM:persist cleric in a game at the moment. From first hand experience, my character is not a mediocre fighter.

Basic build is Human Cleric6(Rebuke Dragons ACF)/RadiantServant1/SacredExorcist1/RS X. I'm currently at level 8. Feats are Extend, Persistent, DMM(Persistent), Extra Turning.

Our group counts Radiant Servant's Greater Turning as a separate pool of turns. I have 1 Nightstick (we don't allow them to stack) and a Reliquary Holy Symbol - both refluffed to affect Rebuke Dragons instead of Turn Undead, as my cleric worships Tamara, but this isn't necessary for it to work! So with 14 Charisma base (18 with Eagle's Spleandor) I have:

17 Rebuke Dragon Attempts
11 Turn Undead Attempts
7 Greater Turnings

This allows me to persist 5 spells, which at level 8 are Divine Power, Channeled Divine Shield, Lesser Holy Transformation, Recitation and Blessed Aim (very ranged-heavy party; next level, this will be replaced with Righteous Wrath of the Faithful).

With respect, I believe you're approaching the question of what makes a good fighter from the wrong direction. Sure, my cleric does less damage per round than my Shock Trooper/Leap Attack Warblade. Still, +19/+14 with 2d6+11 a hit is pretty decent.

But how does a Fighter type get permanent DR 10? Or permanent Flight? Or the other host of immunities you can get if you pick up Reach Spell? A DMM cleric has pretty ridiculous saves (+6 Fort, +5 Ref, +5 Will with the above spells, all of which stacks with resistance items), and a massive to hit bonus (for the whole party!), which you can convert to damage at 9 once you pick up Power Attack (or if your arcane buddy casts Heroics on you).

And then, even after this, you are a full tier 1 caster.

[Piggy Knowles]

Note that I didn't say mediocre - I said adequate. A dedicated pounce build can easily get to the point where, if it hits, it can pretty much one shot anything. A dedicated dungeoncrasher can do pretty exceptional damage and also toss in some BFC. Without sacrificing some of its expertise in other areas, it would be very hard for a cleric to duplicate what they do. But that doesnt mean they are BAD - and they'll still be better than your typical fighter.

That said, a Cleric 4/Crusader 1/Ruby Knight Vindicator 10/Whatever 5 (I like Contemplative, personally) can outshine dedicated martial characters at their own game AND still have a nearly full battery of spells...

[Gnaeus]

My understanding of the situation is less that you're dramatically more powerful than the Fighter at his own game (though permanent Large size and high Str from Righteous Might does help) and more that the Fighter's game is largely unnecessary. Much as you can heal with just a few out of combat Vigor line spells from a wand, you can "Fighter" with just full BAB, Large size, and a decent Str. Your actions are still better spent casting spells, even as the most bog-standard Clericzilla. It's just that if anyone ever needed a Fighter, you can do the job instead. There's maybe a minor exception for chargers, but even there you really should have a mailman for the job instead.

I agree with this. But I will add that (as was the case with the wildshape druid in last week's debate) even if the cleric cannot put out or take quite as much damage as the fighter (and with tricks like knowledge devotion, that is far from guaranteed), there are also fights where he is a far superior tank than a fighter.
1. His high will save makes him viable in fights where the fighter completely fails. For example, mummies, vampires, etc. Anything with will based paralysis, fear, or mind control.
2. The cleric can draw aggro much better than any fighter that isn't a high damage charge build, especially at high levels. Many fighter builds are likely to be ignored by high level intelligent opponents. Those same opponents, not knowing what trick the cleric will pull out of his holy symbol next round, will bump the cleric up in the target list. A tank that can't hold aggro is a bad tank.
3. If we don't assume the existence of another party member who has and can use healing wands, the cleric has a much bigger pool of potential, all-day hp than the fighter.
4. While the persist spells are the core of his fighterness, the cleric tank can also memorize other spells that make him a situationally better tank than a fighter. Spells like Resist Energy, neutralize poison, death ward, freedom of movement and true seeing all allow cleric to tank enemies that the fighter just can't handle.

[limejuicepowder]

Well that makes a lot more sense xD

It's not that the pimped-out cleric will out damage an optimized fighter (whatever that means), it's that the cleric will fill the melee role of a fighter - threatening squares, getting up in caster's grills, that sort of thing - and still cast mad spells. A fighter with the right selection of feats will still do more damage than the cleric, but be much more 1-dimensional.

[Ithandor]

Note that I didn't say mediocre - I said adequate. A dedicated pounce build can easily get to the point where, if it hits, it can pretty much one shot anything. A dedicated dungeoncrasher can do pretty exceptional damage and also toss in some BFC. Without sacrificing some of its expertise in other areas, it would be very hard for a cleric to duplicate what they do. But that doesnt mean they are BAD - and they'll still be better than your typical fighter.

That said, a Cleric 4/Crusader 1/Ruby Knight Vindicator 10/Whatever 5 (I like Contemplative, personally) can outshine dedicated martial characters at their own game AND still have a nearly full battery of spells...

I didn't see your post before I posted mine :smallsmile:

The mediocre fighter comment was addressed to the OP! Your description of playing a DMM cleric is pretty much spot on, from my experience... decent offense, greatly superior defense, and many, many more options.

[Douglas]

DMM (Persist) doesn't really become powerful until mid to high levels. At low levels, it can only make you a somewhat decent fighter.

Let's see, level 10:
Human
Cloistered Cleric7/Sacred Exorcist 2/Death Delver 1
Swap knowledge domain for Knowledge Devotion
Swap CC's Turning for Destroy Undead (from Expedition to Castle Ravenloft; there are 2 or 3 other options in other sources that will do, but I like this one)
Take Undeath and Planning domains
Take 2 flaws
You get Extend Spell and one Extra Turning for free. You have to spend two feats on Persistent Spell and Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell). Let's take Power Attack too, just because. You get 4 feats from levels, 1 from race, 2 from flaws, for 7 total, leaving 4 you can spend on more Extra Turnings. With the free one, that's 5 copies of Extra Turning.
Get a Reliquary Holy Symbol and a Nightstick.
You have 3 + 20 (Extra Turning) + 2 (holy symbol) + 4 (Nightstick) + charisma, or 29 + charisma, uses of Turn Undead.
You have the same number of uses of Destroy Undead.
You also have the same number of uses of Rebuke Undead.
That's 87 plus triple charisma bonuses uses to fuel DMM with. Assuming a modest 14 charisma, that's enough for 13 spells.

Persist the following spells:
Righteous Might
Righteous Wrath of the Faithful
Recitation
Divine Power
Lesser Holy Transformation
Mass Lesser Vigor
Invisibility Purge
Channeled Divine Shield
Divine Retaliation
Cloud of Knives
Stretch Weapon
Divine Favor
Nightshield

You have:
+12 strength
+4 constitution
+5 AC
DR 10/evil
Large size with 15' reach (or medium with 10' reach, depending on casting order)
+6 on attack rolls
+6 damage
Haste-like extra attack
+8 all saves
Full BAB
9 temp hp
60' fly speed (good maneuverability)
60' darkvision
Fast Healing 1
Mobile Invisibility negation
A free attack every time someone hits you
A free 30' range knife attack every round
Immune to Magic Missile

Your party also gains:
+5 on attack rolls (+6 if they follow your deity)
+3 damage
Haste-like extra attack
+2 AC (+3 if they follow your deity)
+2 all saves (+3 if they follow your deity)
Fast Healing 1

Good luck finding feats that will let a Fighter match that. Granted, some of these bonuses won't stack with a Belt of Giant Strength, Amulet of Natural Armor, and Cloak of Resistance, but you can just spend that money on other items instead. Also, you have Power Attack (replacing it with another Extra Turning would get 2 more Persisted spells, but the pickings are getting slim unless you count "touch" as a fixed range, which is debatable), and Knowledge Devotion will give you an extra +1 to +5 attack and damage depending on your knowledge skills, of a type that stacks with all the spells.

Oh, and you still have (a small number of) spells left over.

[ericgrau]

35 turning attempts via X and Y

And that's less cheesy than multiple 7500 gp nightsticks? Oh well, this is DMM persist, gloves are off.



With respect, I believe you're approaching the question of what makes a good fighter from the wrong direction. Sure, my cleric does less damage per round than my Shock Trooper/Leap Attack Warblade. Still, +19/+14 with 2d6+11 a hit is pretty decent.
The majority of posts here have focused on exactly that: taking what martial does and doing it better on top of spell-casting. If the clericzilla doesn't do that, then what you actually have is a tweaked out support character who is superb to have alongside non-caster melee rather than replacing them.

In a few minutes I threw together a quick fighter 8 and got +16/+11 and 20 avg. damage (2d6+11=18 avg., ~19 with crits) before any buffs, one handed, elite array stats, not focusing on offense. +18/+13 and 25 avg. damage two handed with a decent point buy for stats. 4 feats left for the shock trooper stuff and maybe more. Throw on a couple buffs from the party caster(s) and he's ready to join up. Or add cheesy tricks or other classes and do something crazier. Point is it was pretty quick & easy and not very tricky / well optimized. Well, depending on what the remaining 4 feats are spent on, and maybe the magic items could be upgraded to something trickier. Or class levels put into something else. It was pretty much fighter tree feats + melee weapon mastery.

EDIT: the lack of posts in these topics with simple stats totals like attack bonus for each attack, damage, AC, and HP is disturbing. Especially after a wall of text with 37 other things.

[limejuicepowder]

DMM (Persist) doesn't really become powerful until mid to high levels. At low levels, it can only make you a somewhat decent fighter.

Let's see, level 10:
Human
Cloistered Cleric7/Sacred Exorcist 2/Death Delver 1
Swap knowledge domain for Knowledge Devotion
Swap CC's Turning for Destroy Undead (from Expedition to Castle Ravenloft; there are 2 or 3 other options in other sources that will do, but I like this one)
Take Undeath and Planning domains
Take 2 flaws
You get Extend Spell and one Extra Turning for free. You have to spend two feats on Persistent Spell and Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell). Let's take Power Attack too, just because. You get 4 feats from levels, 1 from race, 2 from flaws, for 7 total, leaving 4 you can spend on more Extra Turnings. With the free one, that's 5 copies of Extra Turning.
Get a Reliquary Holy Symbol and a Nightstick.
You have 3 + 20 (Extra Turning) + 2 (holy symbol) + 4 (Nightstick) + charisma, or 29 + charisma, uses of Turn Undead.
You have the same number of uses of Destroy Undead.
You also have the same number of uses of Rebuke Undead.
That's 87 plus triple charisma bonuses uses to fuel DMM with. Assuming a modest 14 charisma, that's enough for 13 spells.

Persist the following spells:
Righteous Might
Righteous Wrath of the Faithful
Recitation
Divine Power
Lesser Holy Transformation
Mass Lesser Vigor
Invisibility Purge
Channeled Divine Shield
Divine Retaliation
Cloud of Knives
Stretch Weapon
Divine Favor
Nightshield

You have:
+12 strength
+4 constitution
+5 AC
DR 10/evil
Large size with 15' reach (or medium with 10' reach, depending on casting order)
+6 on attack rolls
+6 damage
Haste-like extra attack
+8 all saves
Full BAB
9 temp hp
60' fly speed (good maneuverability)
60' darkvision
Fast Healing 1
Mobile Invisibility negation
A free attack every time someone hits you
A free 30' range knife attack every round
Immune to Magic Missile

Your party also gains:
+5 on attack rolls (+6 if they follow your deity)
+3 damage
Haste-like extra attack
+2 AC (+3 if they follow your deity)
+2 all saves (+3 if they follow your deity)
Fast Healing 1

Good luck finding feats that will let a Fighter match that. Granted, some of these bonuses won't stack with a Belt of Giant Strength, Amulet of Natural Armor, and Cloak of Resistance, but you can just spend that money on other items instead. Also, you have Power Attack (replacing it with another Extra Turning would get 2 more Persisted spells, but the pickings are getting slim unless you count "touch" as a fixed range, which is debatable), and Knowledge Devotion will give you an extra +1 to +5 attack and damage depending on your knowledge skills, of a type that stacks with all the spells.

Oh, and you still have (a small number of) spells left over.

I'm sorry this is not legitimate in the slightest. Destroy, turn, and rebuke undead are not separate abilities, they don't each get their own pool of uses you can use to fuel DMM, and extra turning certainly wouldn't apply 3 times.

Plus I have a thing about flaws: total cheese IMO - I would never allow them.

[skycycle blues]

I'm sorry this is not legitimate in the slightest. Destroy, turn, and rebuke undead are not separate abilities, they don't each get their own pool of uses you can use to fuel DMM, and extra turning certainly wouldn't apply 3 times.

Plus I have a thing about flaws: total cheese IMO - I would never allow them.

The Turn Undead pool comes from Sacred Exorcist and I believe that the Rebuke Undead pool comes from Death Delver. They all come from separate sources and are definitely different abilities. Compare to a Cleric of Earth Domain. They can turn Air creatures and explicitly have a pool for Turn/Rebuke from Cleric 1 and a pool for Air turning for Earth Domain.

At least Extra Turning explicitly applies to any pools that a character might have, so it would also apply to all three Destroying Undead. But rather or not Destroying Undead can be used for DMM, I'm unsure about.

From the SRD
Extra Turning.
If you have the ability to turn or rebuke more than one kind of creature each of your turning or rebuking abilities gains four additional uses per day.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#extraTurning

[Gnaeus]

The majority of posts here have focused on exactly that: taking what martial does and doing it better on top of spell-casting. If the clericzilla doesn't do that, then what you actually have is a tweaked out support character who is superb to have alongside non-caster melee rather than replacing them.

What does martial do, exactly?

If what martial does is pure damage, the cleric probably doesn't do it as well. (Still debatable. Martial could mean your shock trooper fighter, or it could mean a Knight, Paladin, S&B or TWF fighter, ranger etc.)

If what martial does is to be the guy who goes into the room first, takes the enemy's first hit, and generally stands between the bad-guy and the soft caster or the archer, cleric does that as well as or better than the fighter. Magic Vestments on his armor and shield probably means that he will have equal or better AC, for a lot less gp spent. Con bonuses + temp hp (Via spells, or via items purchased with the gold fighter is spending on magic armor + weapon) mean cleric is likely to have similar or more HP, while retaining the option to drop an in-combat heal if necessary to stay up, and of course out of combat healing.

Throw in all those spells that I mentioned above that make the cleric vastly better as a tank than a fighter in different situations.

If I have a Sorc/Wiz, and you ask me who I want to be standing between me and the bad-guys while I cast the spell to end the combat, it will be cleric 7 days a week, twice on Sundays.

[limejuicepowder]

The Turn Undead pool comes from Sacred Exorcist and I believe that the Rebuke Undead pool comes from Death Delver. They all come from separate sources and are definitely different abilities. Compare to a Cleric of Earth Domain. They can turn Air creatures and explicitly have a pool for Turn/Rebuke from Cleric 1 and a pool for Air turning for Earth Domain.

At least Extra Turning explicitly applies to any pools that a character might have, so it would also apply to all three Destroying Undead. But rather or not Destroying Undead can be used for DMM, I'm unsure about.

From the SRD
Extra Turning.
If you have the ability to turn or rebuke more than one kind of creature each of your turning or rebuking abilities gains four additional uses per day.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#extraTurning

So your saying the cleric could also take the Earth and Fire domains, destroy undead AFC, sacred exorcist turn undead, death delver rebuke undead, and have 15+(5x cha mod)+(20x extra turning feats) of "turn" attempts to fuel DMM? With a charisma of 16 and extra turning x2, that would be 70 turn attempts - and that's not even using any nightstick shenanigans.

An argument could certainly be made for the domain turning and death delver rebuking - but absolutely not for the sacred exorcist. The ability explicitly says that sacred exorcist levels stack with cleric levels to determine the effectiveness of turning. If took the destroy undead AFC, sacred exorcist levels would increase damage done with that ability, not give a new pool of turn undead uses.

[Douglas]

So your saying the cleric could also take the Earth and Fire domains, destroy undead AFC, sacred exorcist turn undead, death delver rebuke undead, and have 15+(5x cha mod)+(20x extra turning feats) of "turn" attempts to fuel DMM? With a charisma of 16 and extra turning x2, that would be 70 turn attempts - and that's not even using any nightstick shenanigans.

An argument could certainly be made for the domain turning and death delver rebuking - but absolutely not for the sacred exorcist. The ability explicitly says that sacred exorcist levels stack with cleric levels to determine the effectiveness of turning. If took the destroy undead AFC, sacred exorcist levels would increase damage done with that ability, not give a new pool of turn undead uses.
Domains? No. DMM specifically requires Turn or Rebuke Undead. The various elemental domains do not qualify because their abilities do not work on undead.

Sacred Exorcist stacks with an existing class if you already have Turn Undead. A Cleric with Destroy Undead does not have Turn Undead. A character who does not have Turn Undead and enters Sacred Exorcist gains Turn Undead.

Rebuke Undead and Death Delver work similarly - it stacks with an existing class if you already have the ability, but if you don't (and the build as described does not since neither Turn nor Destroy Undead are the same as Rebuke Undead) then you gain it as a new and separate ability.

Extra Turning specifically states that it applies to every Turn/Rebuke/etc. ability you have all at once, so it's +4 to each.

Note, btw, that Destroy Undead specifically states that it can be used to fuel Divine feats the same as Turn Undead, so DMM's specificity in that regard is satisfied.

[skycycle blues]

So your saying the cleric could also take the Earth and Fire domains, destroy undead AFC, sacred exorcist turn undead, death delver rebuke undead, and have 15+(5x cha mod)+(20x extra turning feats) of "turn" attempts to fuel DMM? With a charisma of 16 and extra turning x2, that would be 70 turn attempts - and that's not even using any nightstick shenanigans.

An argument could certainly be made for the domain turning and death delver rebuking - but absolutely not for the sacred exorcist. The ability explicitly says that sacred exorcist levels stack with cleric levels to determine the effectiveness of turning. If took the destroy undead AFC, sacred exorcist levels would increase damage done with that ability, not give a new pool of turn undead uses.

I just took a look at the wording of Divine Metamagic and it just says you spend turn or rebuke attempts. You must have turn or rebuke undead to take the feat, but it does not specify that you must spend turn or rebuke undead attempts, only turn or rebuke attempts, unless there is errata that I'm unaware of. So you should be able to take Earth and Fire domain and have extra pools from which you can power DMM.

I also took a look at the Destroy Undead ACF and Sacred Exorcist and that interaction is less clear. Destroy Undead can definitely be used to fuel DMM. But from the wording of Destroy Undead, it seems that Sacred Exorcist could be reasonably thought to instead add to the effective Cleric level for it.

But if it doesn't, Sacred Exorcist explicitly grants Turn Undead as a class feature if you don't have it. If you have the Destroy Undead ACF, you could be said to not have Turn Undead so you gain it instead of it stacking because Turn and Destroy are different things.

But I'm seeing your point on this one. It seems debatable RAI and unclear RAW.

[Douglas]

I just took a look at the wording of Divine Metamagic and it just says you spend turn or rebuke attempts. You must have turn or rebuke undead to take the feat, but it does not specify that you must spend turn or rebuke undead attempts, only turn or rebuke attempts, unless there is errata that I'm unaware of. So you should be able to take Earth and Fire domain and have extra pools from which you can power DMM.
You're missing a sentence. This one, specifically:

As a free action, you can take the energy from turning or rebuking undead and use it to apply a metamagic feat to spells that you know.


I also took a look at the Destroy Undead ACF and Sacred Exorcist and that interaction is less clear. Destroy Undead can definitely be used to fuel DMM. But from the wording of Destroy Undead, it seems that Sacred Exorcist could be reasonably thought to instead add to the effective Cleric level for it.
Destroy Undead says it counts as Turn Undead for the purpose of prerequisites, yes, but Sacred Exorcist stacking is not a prerequisite.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Well that makes a lot more sense xD

It's not that the pimped-out cleric will out damage an optimized fighter (whatever that means), it's that the cleric will fill the melee role of a fighter - threatening squares, getting up in caster's grills, that sort of thing - and still cast mad spells. A fighter with the right selection of feats will still do more damage than the cleric, but be much more 1-dimensional.

A DMM cleric does better than that, actually...

A Fighter can swing his Sword of Pwning for A BIZILLIONTY DAMAGES!
A Cleric casts Holy Word and every single opponent dies, no save.

A fighter can swing his Sword of Pwning for A BIZILLIONTY DAMAGES!
A Cleric shrugs and casts Hold Monster, and CDG's it to death.

Here's the thing... a Cleric has effectively a full BAB, more hit points (on average), higher AC (thanks to self-buffing with Magic Vestments), and better DR than a Fighter. So, in regards to taking a hit... he's better.

As far as dealing damage... he's got way too many spells that make things fall down, regardless of how much damage he deals. That's about equivalent to doing infinite damage, per target. And can target multiple threats across an area. Fighter just can't keep up with that.

[Arael666]

If you're looking for spells to persist, my post here (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?634310-Help-me-build-a-high-op-Gestalt-Gish&p=25149414#post25149414) might be usefull

[gijoemike]

So your saying the cleric could also take the Earth and Fire domains, destroy undead AFC, sacred exorcist turn undead, death delver rebuke undead, and have 15+(5x cha mod)+(20x extra turning feats) of "turn" attempts to fuel DMM? With a charisma of 16 and extra turning x2, that would be 70 turn attempts - and that's not even using any nightstick shenanigans.

An argument could certainly be made for the domain turning and death delver rebuking - but absolutely not for the sacred exorcist. The ability explicitly says that sacred exorcist levels stack with cleric levels to determine the effectiveness of turning. If took the destroy undead AFC, sacred exorcist levels would increase damage done with that ability, not give a new pool of turn undead uses.

I am surprised this hasn't been said. Stacking pools is the key. Douglas, our moderator, came closest. As a DMM cleric you want to TRADE AWAY turn/rebuke undead at level one using an ACF that gives you some other named pool that has the phrase or similar "it can be used to fuel Divine feats the same as Turn/Rebuke Undead." Destroy undead is the most common. Rebuke Dragons was mentioned first in the thread and was mentioned first in a thread a few days back. Channel Incarnum hasn't been mentioned at all but also works the same way. Maybe I missed it. All 3 of these have the phrase. Also Dread Necromancer gives you rebuke undead. There are 5 separate pools that can be mixed and matched.


So, take cleric but not turn/rebuke undead. Sacred Exorcist, SE is almost always the crux of the build. SE adds Turn Under uses if and only if you have turn under. Douglas said it best. You don't have turn undead, instead you have destroy undead, or rebuke undead, or rebuke dragons. So SE gives you a pool of turn undead. This ability can cause undead to run in fear or quiver in a corner. SE by both theme and text should have turn undead as a power. So, even though it is silly, A Cleric who takes sacred Exorcist has 2 ( OR MORE, most likely more) separate pools of channeling that all can fuel divine metamagic. Taking 1 extra turning feat then will give you 8 or 12 more uses of the abilities.


A properly built DMM cleric will never run out of turn attempts that can fuel DMM, starting at about lvl 5. And that is in a game without flaws. But seeing as a DMM cleric doesn't come online until lvl 7, that isn't a problem.

[truemane]

Metamagic Mod: Thread Necromanc-zilla-y!