help make the Thronehold Deneith Shield [Eberron]

[Kol Korran]

Alon, Ariel, Guy and Tomer - stay out!
if any of you is reading my campaign journal, the following thread might spoil things for you. you've been warned.

i need help making a certain special game obstacle better. :smallamused:

the campaign is coming to a close in the next session, and as part of it the party (12th level) will try to reach the depths beneath Thronehold. (the details are unimportant). i'm not sure whether i read it somewhere or invented it (probably the former), but i decided the ancient seat of power is protected by An elite force of the Sentinel house of Deneith. for the sake of this thread we'll call it "Shield of Thronehold".

this force has been possessed by a demonic entity however, but this possession has been partly broken, so now the protecting force is divided: a large force that is still possessed and holds the palace, and a smaller liberated force that barricades itself outside. (which the party might use for help).

now, what i want from this situation is basically:
- an interesting obstacle on the way through, that should have prevented lower level individuals getting into the palace (should stop up to level 7-8 i think) but shouldn't be too big a deal for a 12th level party. this is an interesting dish, but far from the main course.

- a situation that can't be dealt with (or at least easily dealt with) purely by force. ideally some trickery, subterfuge or clever thinking will be needed to overcome the Shield.

- The Shield should have themed powers of the house, most notably is some sort of major magical effect. my thought for this was some sort of a super-shield-other effect, meaning that each damage any of them takes, is spread out amongst them all. this means just one huge HD pool for them all, where they either all stand, or all fall, making a battle against any of them a battel against this conjoined HP pool.

true- this makes for a unique challenge, but i don't like it very much- i think the party will figure this out only way too late, even with prior knowledge which they'll have. any other ideas?

- some powers, resources or influences of other houses could be given, such as mage bred griffons from Vadalis, or perhaps wands from Cannith, or sight enhancers from Medani and the like.

- the Shield should feel like a serious guard force, with abilities to block simple mundane and magical ways of intrusion (the party lieks to fly, invisibility and Meld into Stone). the party might have information on some of these abilities (to a smaller or greater extent).

My Problem
i'm not sure how to balance making this force between "impregnable fort nox" and "THESE are the guys holding Thronehold?". I've written some things down to myself, but they feel lacking, so i thought to ask the forum. mainly puzzled about the following:
- what composition do you think the shield had to begin with? (this the party might know) and what does each of the two parts constitutes now?

- special feature of the Shield?

- safety procedures? (i fairly suck at this. my players usually find easy way around stuff)

- the meeting will already be pressed for time (for reasons i won't go into now). any suggestions as how to prevent bogging this situation down WITHOUT handing the party some easy way in?

if it matters, the party is fairly low op (the ranger is on par with power with the cleric) and is composed of:
- Kalashtar ultimate magus (4th level spells wiz and sorc. lots of metamagic feats.)
- Aasimar cleric (6th level spells, but knows very little how to use 5th and 6th level spells to their full effect. no persist)
- half elf rogue/ duskblade (3rd level DB spells. also acts with the ranger as the sneaky guys)
- half orc ranger 12, bow focused, intelligent bow, mainly act as mini machine gun.

i know this is a weird request, but hopefully you can help. :smallsmile:
thanks in advance,
Kol.

[LansXero]

- For the first, living spell or resetting magic trap of spell-that-doesnt-work-on-10HD-or-more-individuals? (or color spray to stun lowbies followed by spiked death from above?).

- an overly CR foe that can be thwarted by diplomacy? Depending on how long you want it to take, it could be as simple as one of the "trick" traps I read about in the forum somewhere (Like the golem sitting below an arch with the inscription "sometimes, all you to do is _____" (last part broken off and missing) that can destroy the party, but if they just ask it to stop, it does. Or the full-lockdown, countdown timer that can be resetted by touching a gem, and whenever it gets low enough swarms of enemies start coming through. On 0... they go away, and the lockdown stops, and they are free to move on. Or others of the same kind)

- You could have them have Empathic Transfer as an spell-like ability; that way they can take a swift action to share their HP, as it were, and it would be more obvious that they will have to be dealt in this manner. Also, have them use their dragonmark powers?

- Wind Wall should help, burrowing can be stopped by iron bars going deep into the ground (you can say they are there to reinforce the construction) invisibility doesnt negate smell (from magebred hounds or wolves or any other tracking animal), they can get a monocle of see invisible (that way the party knows to target the one wearing it so they get to use their invisibleness, so its a hazzle but not a complete negation of their abilities).

As for what they are made of... dwarfs. lots of stubborn, tough-as-nails dorfs. Who are crusaders. With the usual lockdown tricked out builds, white raven leaders and devoted spirit seargeants. Alternatively, look for the Iron Tortoise homebrew discipline in the homebrew forums, its so shieldish its not even funny.

A few guards (3-5) could "combine" to shield an area with an impassable wall of force, to narrow rooms down and push back the party. They could teleport past them or go around the wall, and taking down one of the dorfs casting it would remove the effect, but it should make them think. Aditionally, this lets you field a lot of dorfs without having to have them take actual turns.

Make it a rather binary ocurrence. They are hard as hell to get past, but once you do, you are home free. They are supposed to be the best of the best, so no one even considered them getting bypassed. Or you could make the barricaded non-posessed be what was supposed to be the emergency response team, the ones that were supposed to reinforce the shield should anyone get past them. But wont now.

[Madcrafter]

I made a deneith bodyguard character once, with his shtick being to make himself and his ward pretty much invincible. I could see something like that working for the shield guys. Have them in the citadel, and when the party meets the first pair they can try and either talk/trick their way past, or fight. If they talk their way by, then you have succeeded in what you tried to do (and the guards could escort them, discouraging any further encounters). If they decide to fight, make them start to realize that any combat against them is going to be nigh impossible (Shield Other, Protection from energy, and Delay Death as dragonmark abilities, along with the diehard feat, and perhaps bottleneck corridors and other things) even if the guards aren't doing that much to hurt the party, just preventing them from getting inside. But wait, that demon inside them is getting angry at the fighting, and every round they start to fight a little better. That should hopefully discourage them from going into combat with too many more guards, and speed them on their way (once they think of a way to get by the rest).

As for their ways of getting past the guards, if it is the end of the campaign, might not hurt to have each patrol with a ring of true seeing (the OOTS comic having just given me that idea) and/or detect magic . Along with some spell effects or magic traps to keep the party from burrowing in or something. The party might have to avoid detection by ducking into side rooms when a patrol is going by, or melding into the wall, or somesuch. Also, to keep them from having an easy ride once they start doing this (if you are still good on time for your session) you could make the layout of the place deliberately confusing, maybe forcing them to find a map or somesuch to find the right staircase. The ceilings in the hallways could be low, to prevent flying above any guards (or give them some wands of that spell that makes flying things fall), and some groups might have a specially bred guard dogs with them, forcing the party to flee or find a way to mask their scent.

For the composition of the guard itself, unless deneith is employing some full time wizards (which I don't think fits with the fluff for the guard at Thronehold), I would make them some combination of crusaders, survivors, dragonmark heirs, deneith wardens, devoted defenders (the 3.0 class), maybe some low level clerics/paladins (devoted to guarding the fortress), perhaps even and heir of syberis or two. Have them use their dragonmark abilities extensively (most would probably have greater marks, since it is and honoured position IIRC. At least lesser) and combo shield other with DR and energy resistance, have them delay death when someone gets killed.

Those are just a few ideas, that turned into a much larger wall of text than I thought.

[Kol Korran]

first of all, thanks for the replies, i'm trying to do something that can be overcome in an hour and a half or two.


- For the first, living spell or resetting magic trap of spell-that-doesnt-work-on-10HD-or-more-individuals? (or color spray to stun lowbies followed by spiked death from above?). hmmm.. such a magical affect only surrounding the entire palace? Deep slumber comes to mind, but perhaps something else? could be the work of house Khudarak... i'll need to try and think of a spell when i get the time.



- an overly CR foe that can be thwarted by diplomacy? Depending on how long you want it to take, it could be as simple as one of the "trick" traps I read about in the forum somewhere (Like the golem sitting below an arch with the inscription "sometimes, all you to do is _____" (last part broken off and missing) that can destroy the party, but if they just ask it to stop, it does. Or the full-lockdown, countdown timer that can be resetted by touching a gem, and whenever it gets low enough swarms of enemies start coming through. On 0... they go away, and the lockdown stops, and they are free to move on. Or others of the same kind) this is intriguing... some sort of a unique Golem (or golems) that protects the palace? hey! maybe even ancient good gargoyles. i assume you read the Journal, the party will get some info from Porica, that may include how to bypass this threat.

i'm not quite sure about this special kind of traps. they seem to be a time waster for the party, but perhaps. the idea merits thought...


- You could have them have Empathic Transfer as an spell-like ability; that way they can take a swift action to share their HP, as it were, and it would be more obvious that they will have to be dealt in this manner. Also, have them use their dragonmark powers? the idea is to have some sort of super dragonmarked effect, usable only with those with dragonmarks. the empathic transfer is similar to my super-shield-other idea, but it might make it more apparent. and perhaps- it functions only to groups in a certain distance of each other? this way individual groups can be beaten.... but this just makes it a tougher fight, a sort of HP punching bag with multiple foes... i'll need to think


- Wind Wall should help, burrowing can be stopped by iron bars going deep into the ground (you can say they are there to reinforce the construction) invisibility doesnt negate smell (from magebred hounds or wolves or any other tracking animal), they can get a monocle of see invisible (that way the party knows to target the one wearing it so they get to use their invisibleness, so its a hazzle but not a complete negation of their abilities). excellent ideas! i loved the bars in the grounds especially! thanks! i'll refluff the monocle to something less ridiculous.


As for what they are made of... dwarfs. lots of stubborn, tough-as-nails dorfs. Who are crusaders. With the usual lockdown tricked out builds, white raven leaders and devoted spirit seargeants. Alternatively, look for the Iron Tortoise homebrew discipline in the homebrew forums, its so shieldish its not even funny. crusaders? yes! a good idea! dwarfs- no... it's a Deneith thing, they should be humans. dwarfs won't even have the mark.


A few guards (3-5) could "combine" to shield an area with an impassable wall of force, to narrow rooms down and push back the party. They could teleport past them or go around the wall, and taking down one of the dorfs casting it would remove the effect, but it should make them think. Aditionally, this lets you field a lot of dorfs without having to have them take actual turns. hmmmm.... combining the shiled effect for a movable police riot shield sounds cool! teleporting might be doen for elite untis (through dimension door) but i hope to avoid such tangled battles. butwon't hurt to be prepared!


Make it a rather binary ocurrence. They are hard as hell to get past, but once you do, you are home free. They are supposed to be the best of the best, so no one even considered them getting bypassed. Or you could make the barricaded non-posessed be what was supposed to be the emergency response team, the ones that were supposed to reinforce the shield should anyone get past them. But wont now. i intend that once they get into the palace they should be free from the forces, but that should most hopefully be due to diversion from outside (the not possesed troops) and diversion from within (which i'm keeping secret for now. spoilers!)

thanks LansXero! you gave me quite a bit to think about!


If they decide to fight, make them start to realize that any combat against them is going to be nigh impossible (Shield Other, Protection from energy, and Delay Death as dragonmark abilities, first of all, what is Delay Death? secondly, the party might easily get most magical defenses down with dispel magic and vulnerability and more. i'd like individual foes to seem fairly easy to beat (in Eberron 6th level characters are serious bad asses, and the party is level 12) but as a whole very tough to get down, therefor- the specific magic effect i'm looking for.


But wait, that demon inside them is getting angry at the fighting, and every round they start to fight a little better. That should hopefully discourage them from going into combat with too many more guards, and speed them on their way (once they think of a way to get by the rest). i probably should have mentioned- the demon inside is a sort of a controlling hive mind (though now somewhat impaired), it can't make them fight stronger. they aren't likely to meet just 2 here, 4 there. the Shield is barricaded in defenses in large numbers (at least those that remain) against the non possessed.


As for their ways of getting past the guards, if it is the end of the campaign, might not hurt to have each patrol with a ring of true seeing (the OOTS comic having just given me that idea) true seeing is good for key locations, but too expensive for each patrol. it's a 5th level spell, and these don't come easy or cheap in Eberron.


Also, to keep them from having an easy ride once they start doing this (if you are still good on time for your session) you could make the layout of the place deliberately confusing, maybe forcing them to find a map or some such to find the right staircase. perhaps i should have mentioned this as well. once they are in the palace things will go smoother. GETTING THERE is the problem- getting over the outside defenses. i rarely use dungeon or maps, and the palace should have a fairly simple straight forward layout (except for some hidden passages)


The ceilings in the hallways could be low, to prevent flying above any guards (or give them some wands of that spell that makes flying things fall), and some groups might have a specially bred guard dogs with them, forcing the party to flee or find a way to mask their scent. dogs are good, and as for flyers- arrows, griffons with mounted troops i think, and some magic wands for the mages and the like.


For the composition of the guard itself, unless deneith is employing some full time wizards (which I don't think fits with the fluff for the guard at Thronehold), I would make them some combination of crusaders, survivors, dragonmark heirs, deneith wardens, devoted defenders (the 3.0 class), maybe some low level clerics/paladins (devoted to guarding the fortress), perhaps even and heir of syberis or two. Have them use their dragonmark abilities extensively (most would probably have greater marks, since it is and honoured position IIRC. At least lesser) and combo shield other with DR and energy resistance, have them delay death when someone gets killed. i do intend them to have mages. mostly to counter other mages and supply some buffing, but your other ideas are good. i'm thinking warblades and crusaders and dragon mark heir. most will be about 6th level, with a few "high commanders" of 8/9th level. the heir of Syberis won't be used for guard duty i think, but to actively protect someone (Perhaps Kaius and his secrets?)

i have no idea what Survivor, Deneith warden and devoted defenders are and again- what is Delay Death?

thanks for the feedback, it helps me jostle ideas and try tocome up with a better one. :smallsmile:

Those are just a few ideas, that turned into a much larger wall of text than I thought.

[Madcrafter]

Ah, sorry for misconstruing what you were looking for. I figured it was the guards themselves that were supposed to be the challenge to get by once inside.


this is intriguing... some sort of a unique Golem (or golems) that protects the palace? hey! maybe even ancient good gargoyles.

I'd say the gargoyles are a good idea, and could help protect the outside too from flying PCs if you needed.


the idea is to have some sort of super dragonmarked effect, usable only with those with dragonmarks. the empathic transfer is similar to my super-shield-other idea, but it might make it more apparent. and perhaps- it functions only to groups in a certain distance of each other? this way individual groups can be beaten.... but this just makes it a tougher fight, a sort of HP punching bag with multiple foes... i'll need to think

Well shield other is a deneith dragonmark ability, and with a bit of description it can be pretty obvious that the shield is up (you could have a glowy force field around them if you wanted to, but even something like "You slash down at the guard's chest, but leave a lot shallower a cut than you would expect. Beside you, the other guard flinches as blood begins to seep through his armour" or something would give them the idea)


hmmmm.... combining the shiled effect for a movable police riot shield sounds cool! teleporting might be doen for elite untis (through dimension door) but i hope to avoid such tangled battles. butwon't hurt to be prepared!

There are some feats for that sort of thing I'm pretty sure. Maybe they have a lesser orien heir on call for teleporting if they need it.


true seeing is good for key locations, but too expensive for each patrol. it's a 5th level spell, and these don't come easy or cheap in Eberron.

Depends how nitpicky your party is I suppose. Mine probably wouldn't notice that every patrol having a ring of true seeing is a bit out of the means of the elite guard unit. Although it isn't unreasonable that they may have quite a few.


i have no idea what Survivor, Deneith warden and devoted defenders are and again- what is Delay Death?

Survivor is a prestige class from Savage species that essentially makes you harder to kill, deneith warden is a deneith only prestige class from dragonmarked, and devoted defender is a bodyguard prestige class from sword and fist (3.0). Delay death is a spell from the spell compendium, that stops the target from dying for rounds/level no matter how much damage they take (immediate action cast time), and can be gotten as a deneith dragonmark ability through a feat.


And if its getting into the castle that should be the challenge, have only one door (reasonable), guarded by a swarm of the possessed guards. There might be an entrance on the roof, but they have to brave the gargoyles to try. Some divination magic might reveal a long forgotten secret escape passage down on the side of the island too. That leaves them a couple options, the least desirable of which is fight their way in.