Flurry of blows+TWF = headache

[Turkagent]

So in my campaign one of my players is a 3rd level monk with TWF and Weapon Finesse with a dexterity of 19.

My understanding of the rules is that for a single attack (BAB of +2) she gets +6, while using TWF will put her at +4/+4.

With the rules of TWF+Flurry of blows, my understanding of the rules is that flurry of blows goes by the rules according to the book which at her level is +0/+0 (after factoring in BAB). I think if she opts to TWF while Flurrying, the third punch should get an additional -2 for TWF+Flurry penalities, resulting in

+0/+0/-2

Now since these are all using her natural light weapon(unarmed strike) does she get to add her dex mod to each score to make this a total:

+4/+4/+2 for Flurry?

It seems like an odd question but discussions I'm reading makes it sound like she doesn't get to add her dex mod to her flurry to a total attack bonus, but this makes no sense to me.

[Aegis013]

I believe the dex mod would be added; so a full attack using flurry would be +4/+4/+2. It's the same idea as a TWF Swordsage using Flashing Sun maneuver.

[jaybird]

It's certainly fair enough.

[gkathellar]

She gets +2/+2/+2. Here's why:

Firstly, she has +2 BAB and a +4 Dexterity modifier. That gives her +6 to attack, like you've said.

Then, she uses TWF. That gives her one extra attack with her off hand at her highest attack bonus, and gives her a -2 (with a light weapon, which her unarmed strike is) on all attacks that round. That's +4/+4.

Then, she uses Flurry. That gives her one extra attack with her main hand at her highest attack bonus, and gives her a -2 on all attacks that round. That's +2/+2/+2.

There's nothing that restricts you from using Weapon Finesse alongside Flurry of Blows. Is there a specific piece of text that has you thinking so?

[Aegis013]

Right... +2/+2/+2... I feel dumb for not having revisited Flurry of Blows before posting.

[Siosilvar]

She gets +2/+2/+2. Here's why:

Firstly, she has +2 BAB and a +4 Dexterity modifier. That gives her +6 to attack, like you've said.

Then, she uses TWF. That gives her one extra attack with her off hand at her highest attack bonus, and gives her a -2 (with a light weapon, which her unarmed strike is) on all attacks that round. That's +4/+4.

Then, she uses Flurry. That gives her one extra attack with her main hand at her highest attack bonus, and gives her a -2 on all attacks that round. That's +2/+2/+2.

This. Both of them give one extra attack for a -2 penalty, so combining them gives two extra attacks for a -4 penalty. Add BAB and Dex and you get three attacks at +2 total.

[NeoSeraphi]

So in my campaign one of my players is a 3rd level monk with TWF and Weapon Finesse with a dexterity of 19.

My understanding of the rules is that for a single attack (BAB of +2) she gets +6, while using TWF will put her at +4/+4.

With the rules of TWF+Flurry of blows, my understanding of the rules is that flurry of blows goes by the rules according to the book which at her level is +0/+0 (after factoring in BAB). I think if she opts to TWF while Flurrying, the third punch should get an additional -2 for TWF+Flurry penalities, resulting in

+0/+0/-2

Now since these are all using her natural light weapon(unarmed strike) does she get to add her dex mod to each score to make this a total:

+4/+4/+2 for Flurry?

It seems like an odd question but discussions I'm reading makes it sound like she doesn't get to add her dex mod to her flurry to a total attack bonus, but this makes no sense to me.

The Flurry of Blows table has already factored BAB in (You take a -2 to each hit, and you have +2 BAB, so it's +0/+0). THEN you stack your TWF penalties on top of that, so its -2/-2/-2. Then you get your Dex bonus. So your total attack routine is +2/+2/+2. And that is why you shouldn't combine TWF and Flurry of Blows (-4 to hit at this level is just insane)

Edit: :smalleek: This...this is the first time I have ever been quadruple swordsaged...I need to type faster.

[Reluctance]

If this is the sort of build I think it is, you'll probably also want to throw your player a bone or two. Throwing out a lot of low damage, low accuracy attacks might work in certain systems, but D&D isn't one of them. It'd be wise to let some fist booster drop somewhere in the near future.

[Curmudgeon]

There's also the rules issue that you can't actually use two-weapon fighting unarmed; that's because you're required to have a second weapon for your off hand attacks, and you've only got the one unarmed strike (which you can implement with any/all parts of your body). There's nothing either unclear or unfair about using TWF unarmed; it's merely disallowed.

You could point out that using an attack routine that's mostly going to miss and requires the Monk to go toe-to-toe (i.e. full attack) with enemies isn't a good idea anyway; their full counterattacks are probably going to hit the Monk pretty often.

If the character can wait until their level 9 feat, they can pick up a greatly superior alternative: Snap Kick (Tome of Battle, page 32). Snap Kick gives a bonus unarmed strike with all of the following:

standard action melee attack
full attack with at least one melee attack
attack of opportunity
bonus melee attack (such as the one granted by Improved Trip)

[gkathellar]

There's nothing either unclear or unfair about using TWF unarmed; it's merely disallowed.

The developers seem to disagree with you. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20070403a) That's just the easy-to-find link, but I've heard the Sage and CustServ and just about everything even close to official express the opinion that TWF can be done unarmed.

Just because you can execute an unarmed strike with any part of your body does not disallow TWF with unarmed. Certainly that seems to be a logical claim, but it's not one that's supported.

[Krazzman]

remember her TWF bonus attack only deals dice + half strength mod.

and if it has to be a weapon she wears fistknuckles: solved.

[hex0]

remember her TWF bonus attack only deals dice + half strength mod.

I thought Monks always deal 1x damage even if using TWF? :smallconfused:

[Coidzor]

With the rules of TWF+Flurry of blows, my understanding of the rules is that flurry of blows goes by the rules according to the book which at her level is +0/+0 (after factoring in BAB). I think if she opts to TWF while Flurrying, the third punch should get an additional -2 for TWF+Flurry penalities, resulting in

+0/+0/-2

IIRC, the penalties stack so they'd all have the same penalty to hit if you're playing it that way.


Now since these are all using her natural light weapon(unarmed strike) does she get to add her dex mod to each score to make this a total:

Weapon finesse works with unarmed strike, yes.


It seems like an odd question but discussions I'm reading makes it sound like she doesn't get to add her dex mod to her flurry to a total attack bonus, but this makes no sense to me.

Flurry wouldn't cover the weapon finesse feat. The weapon finesse feat does that.

[NeoSeraphi]

I thought Monks always deal 1x damage even if using TWF? :smallconfused:

Yes. Here's the quote from the SRD:


There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed. A monk may thus apply her full Strength bonus on damage rolls for all her unarmed strikes.

The monk gets his full Strength bonus to all unarmed strikes, regardless of his right or left-handedness, or if he's using Two-Weapon Fighting. Which he shouldn't be. (Monks are MAD enough, you don't need to put a 19 in your Dex just to sit there and miss because you couldn't up your Strength enough to compensate for it)

[OracleofWuffing]

The developers seem to disagree with you. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20070403a) That's just the easy-to-find link, but I've heard the Sage and CustServ and just about everything even close to official express the opinion that TWF can be done unarmed.
Generally speaking, CustServ and Sage rulings are not held in high regard with regards to rules as written discussions. To quote from the D&D Boards General FAQ (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19579298/D38?pg=1):

Q: Who is Skip Williams (the Sage)?
A: Some guy who answers questions (and also one of the game designers who used to work for WOTC; he does freelance now - tjeck out the back of your core books and his name is listed there). The official D&D FAQ by Skip can be found here:
> Official D&D FAQ (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/er/er20020330a) <
Sometimes the rulings he makes are... well... somewhat questionable, inconsistent and strange.

Q: If I have a question that I want a quasi-official answer to, who should I email?
A: [email protected] is the WOTC customer service department. Their answers are sometimes right, sometimes wrong, and sometimes inconsistent, so I would cross reference their answers with other sources when possible.


If either of the two conflict with RAW, preference typically goes to RAW, as pretty much the only way to officially rewrite the books is via errata. If there is no supporting errata, well, their suggestions are little different than a random person saying, "This is how I play it out in my games!"

[Keld Denar]

The monk gets his full Strength bonus to all unarmed strikes, regardless of his right or left-handedness, or if he's using Two-Weapon Fighting. Which he shouldn't be. (Monks are MAD enough, you don't need to put a 19 in your Dex just to sit there and miss because you couldn't up your Strength enough to compensate for it)

My interpretation of that phrase is that even if a monk attacks unarmed and specifies that his attacks are made with either hand, he isn't TWFing normally. Thats consistant with the rules that NOBODY is TWFing, regardless of if they attack with either hand, so long as they aren't using the TWFing combat option. If a monk uses the TWFing combat option, THEN he's have an offhand, just like everyone else.

It promotes more internal consistency, is RAW legal, and just plain makes more sense than exception-based rulings.

[dextercorvia]

The developers seem to disagree with you. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20070403a) That's just the easy-to-find link, but I've heard the Sage and CustServ and just about everything even close to official express the opinion that TWF can be done unarmed.

Just because you can execute an unarmed strike with any part of your body does not disallow TWF with unarmed. Certainly that seems to be a logical claim, but it's not one that's supported.

Actually, that supports Curmudgeon's argument since it only discusses using UAS with another type of weapon when TWFing.

He wasn't claiming you couldn't TWF including UAS at all, just that you can't TWF an UAS with another UAS.

That would be like TWFing my Greatsword with my Greatsword.

[Dimers]

There's also the rules issue that you can't actually use two-weapon fighting unarmed; that's because you're required to have a second weapon for your off hand attacks, and you've only got the one unarmed strike (which you can implement with any/all parts of your body). There's nothing either unclear or unfair about using TWF unarmed; it's merely disallowed.

Regardless, you can use Flurry with TWF if you're using special monk weapons. I know that's not what the OP said, but it's an option that monk could start using.

[Snowbluff]

Next time, just play a Swordsage or Warblade.

[Evard]

Well first off the monk needs to take weapon prof (unarmed strike) since the class by RAW is not proficient with unarmed strike :smallbiggrin:

I felt like being that person today :)

[kulosle]

Yes the monk must use a weapon in his off hand. The usual fix to monks is shao disciple and drunken master. Drunken master is just to get improvised weapons (adamantine spiked steins) and shao disciple to let you flurry with them and the feat that combines monk and fighter levels (in a dragon magazine not sure which) for monk abilities and feat selection. Then choose your favorite way to full out attack on the end of a charge and enchant the spikes on the steins.

[Gwendol]

The developers seem to disagree with you. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20070403a) That's just the easy-to-find link, but I've heard the Sage and CustServ and just about everything even close to official express the opinion that TWF can be done unarmed.

Just because you can execute an unarmed strike with any part of your body does not disallow TWF with unarmed. Certainly that seems to be a logical claim, but it's not one that's supported.

That reference specifically states that the monk can use TWF when interchanging weapon swings (sword is the cited example) with unarmed strikes. By RAW it isn't possible to flurry and TWF, since you aren't using two weapons. I would argue that this includes monks using unarmed strikes and "special monk weapons".

[kulosle]

That makes no sense. A monk attacking with two saps is obviously TWF

[Gwendol]

No. A monk using unarmed strikes or special monk weapons isn't TWF. TWF is hitting enemies with an off-hand attack in addition to the normal attack. The monk does not have an off-hand (in that sense).

If that was the case the monk would only gain 1/2 STR bonus damage for the second attack.

If the monk uses another weapon, like a spear, and adds an unarmed strike, then this is TWF, with all associated penalties.