Arcane caster 10 to 20

[kabreras]

I will soon enter a new campaign and i need to make an arcane caster that will fill from 10 to 20.

Hard (or easy) part is that the DM want ot play with recharge magic from unearthed arcana witch seems to make most of the spontaneous casters look useless compared to wizards.

Now i was looking about something like a malkonvoker thing but it look like someone in our party is going to make some kind of demon hunter and that would end bad.

What kind of build could i take that would be good for the whole campaign and that is not too basic to play.

[gkathellar]

You need to be more specific. There are dozens of widely-known complex, high-power arcane caster builds, with dozens of variations for many of them. What exactly do you want your character to do?

[hex0]

What kind of build could i take that would be good for the whole campaign and that is not too basic to play.

Warmage 1/Wizard 4/Ultimate Magus 5 to start can be fun. Take Practiced Spellcaster: Warmage and you'll cast as a 9th level Wizard and 4th level Warmage. Use Wizard spells for utility and Warmage spells for blasting and fueling Reserve Feats. More fun: ban evocation and be a focused specialist. :smallbiggrin:

Continue Ultimate Magus to level 15 then take Archmage etc.

Edit: I just read the recharge rules! :smallamused: Yeah, it makes the Reserve Feats powerful. And Arcane Strike.

[Randomguy]

Are you only allowed spells from core?

With this variant, you should consider not specialising, since specialising mainly sacrifices versatility for being able to cast more often. You can now, with this system, cast nearly as often as you like, so the main reason to specialise is now gone. If you do specialise, though, then you get more spells known per day. See if you can become a domain wizard. That would be the best solution.

I suggest you play a standard battlefield control wizard. Here's a guide (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19873034/Treantmonks_guide_to_Wizards:_Being_a_God).
You can, with this system, focus on battlefield control, debuffing and buffing all at once, and, if you have spare spells slots, prepare a few blasts.
You could spend your time invisible, as long as you don't blast or debuff, which is helpful at lower levels.

If you do take the ultimate magus route, then don't take warmage as you other class. Take beguiler, for the skill points and int synergy. That way, you can ban enchantment and maybe illusion.

Don't take reserve feats: Your spells recharge fast enough anyway.

Take the collegiate wizard feat, for more spells known. You need to have almost as many spells known as you have spell slots, or else you don't get the full benefit of the recharge magic system.

Get runestaves from MIC to expand your spell list.

[dextercorvia]

In agreement with Randomguy -- you want to be a generalist, specifically an Elven Generalist with Collegiate Wizard for 5 spells per level. You'll get the one extra slot at your highest level, which will probably be all you need to crank out a max level spell every round. You might also consider the Domain wizard variant which gives you an extra slot at each level that has to be filled with a specific list of 9 spells. It is essentially free if you can get it.

I'll recommend being a Silverbrow Human with Quicken Spell, Practical Metamagic (Quicken Spell), Easy Metamagic (Quicken Spell) and Spontaneous Divination (to qualify for Practical Metamagic). Metamagic School Focus would also be good with this variant, since you can only apply it to three spells per day, but you'll keep getting it back.

This will allow you to pick 3 (Max level -2) spells and quicken them in (Max level -1) slots -- totally rocking the action economy.

With the recharge mechanic, you should be rocking two spells/round every round.

Pick out good buffs, and use the rest of your slots to keep you buffed to the nines.

[Snowbluff]

Just take ten levels of Incantatrix and some Easy Metamagic mixed with Arcane Thesis and call me in the morning.

[kabreras]

Im allowed prety much everything but dragon mags

[Ducklord]

Just play a standard wizard with some buffs, some battlefield control and a damage spell every once in a while. At those levels casters outshine the other party members even in a regular game and without trying.

[candycorn]

In agreement with Randomguy -- you want to be a generalist, specifically an Elven Generalist with Collegiate Wizard for 5 spells per level. You'll get the one extra slot at your highest level, which will probably be all you need to crank out a max level spell every round.
Nitpick. Using a general spell of level X locks out ALL spells of that level for the cooldown time.

This means that if your level 11 wizard casts a Chain Lightning (level 6 spell), that wizard cannot cast any level 6 spell for the cooldown time.

Yes, players will lead off with the power spells, but, after a few rounds, they're slinging small spells, unless they rolled well on cooldown.

[Mnemnosyne]

Take the collegiate wizard feat, for more spells known. You need to have almost as many spells known as you have spell slots, or else you don't get the full benefit of the recharge magic system.I've never really understood why anyone would want to use a feat on more spells known for a wizard, when wizards can just buy more spells anyway. It makes no sense!

Over a 20 level career, Collegiate Wizard saves you a grand total of 14,450 GP, assuming each one of the bonus spells you get is a spell of your highest possible level at each levelup. Is 14,450 GP spread out over 20 levels really worth a feat? A precious resource that you only get a very limited number of in your entire career, compared with gold which is effectively infinite and you can always get more of?

[dextercorvia]

Nitpick. Using a general spell of level X locks out ALL spells of that level for the cooldown time.

This means that if your level 11 wizard casts a Chain Lightning (level 6 spell), that wizard cannot cast any level 6 spell for the cooldown time.

Yes, players will lead off with the power spells, but, after a few rounds, they're slinging small spells, unless they rolled well on cooldown.

I caught that was how it worked for a Sorcerer, but I missed that general rule in my read through. That does change things a bit.


I've never really understood why anyone would want to use a feat on more spells known for a wizard, when wizards can just buy more spells anyway. It makes no sense!

Over a 20 level career, Collegiate Wizard saves you a grand total of 14,450 GP, assuming each one of the bonus spells you get is a spell of your highest possible level at each levelup. Is 14,450 GP spread out over 20 levels really worth a feat? A precious resource that you only get a very limited number of in your entire career, compared with gold which is effectively infinite and you can always get more of?

It isn't optimal under ideal circumstances, but it can be worth it in a campaign where the DM is strict with scroll access, or very low on down time. It doesn't just save you gp, it saves time, as well. Learning/scribing a spell is a 2 day process -- I don't always get 96 hours of down time between each level. This feat allows me to just say they are there.

I usually have something better to spend the feat on, though.

[Little Brother]

Warmage 1/Wizard 4/Ultimate Magus 5 to start can be fun. Take Practiced Spellcaster: Warmage and you'll cast as a 9th level Wizard and 4th level Warmage. Use Wizard spells for utility and Warmage spells for blasting and fueling Reserve Feats. More fun: ban evocation and be a focused specialist. :smallbiggrin:

Continue Ultimate Magus to level 15 then take Archmage etc.

Edit: I just read the recharge rules! :smallamused: Yeah, it makes the Reserve Feats powerful. And Arcane Strike.If you're actually using UM, and want to be a **** about it, you could go Spontaneous Divination Wizard 5/UM 6/Ur-Priest 2/Mystic Theurge 2/(Some Divine-progressing PrCs 5 or MT +3)/Whatever the hell you want that progresses casting to get 20 in both, or martial adept, or whatever. You cast as a 13th level wizard at level 10, a fifteen at 11, and it just progresses obviously from there. Or if you want to be more dickish than that build, you can use my Spell-to-Power Cerebremancer trick: Ardent 1(Magic Mantle)/Erudite 3(Spell-to-Power and Favored Discipline(Magic))/Crebremancer 7/whatever you want, since you already have 9th level arcane and psionics. I recommend Ur-priest 2/Psychic Theurge +3/Divine progression(Or more levels in Ur-Priest) 5, or going Nar Demonbinder 1/Cerebremancer +3/Mindbender 1/Arcane Progression +1/Thrallherd 3, to get access to another list, though you really can get Blasphemy already, I think getting Dictum/Word of Chaos/Holy Word is nice.

I recommend being a magic-blooded Deep Imscari, or whatever it's called. You might want to take your first Thrallherd level earlier, but keep the last two at the end. Around level 10 is when you should take it. Either way, Erudites get Mind Switch, so what you should do is either make your own thrall with the best physical stats, or if your DM doesn't let you, just ask for something to that effect. Use Psionic Dominate and the patsy trick (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10202996&postcount=160) to mind switch into its, your thrall's, body.

Look at your full caster, now back to my build, now back to your full caster, now back to my. Sadly, it isn't my build. But if you didn't use boring builds, and used something like my build, you could be three full-casters in a great warrior body. Look down. Back up. Where are you? You're in a campaign with the build your build could look like. What's that in your hand? Back to me. I have it. It's an oyster, with this on a character sheet. Look again. The build is now DIAMONDS. Anything is possible when you are three full casters on a warrior chassis. I'm on a phantom steed.

[kabreras]

Ah yes.. no psionics :(

[gkathellar]

You still haven't said anything about what kind of character or build you want to play. Anyone can recommend a Rainbow Dreadsnake w/a wizard level and Versatile Spellcaster, or a Mailman build, or a Batman-style Incantatrix, or an Anima Mage, or a UM/Sublime Chord with an absurd caster level, or any other number of builds. You need to be more specific.

[kabreras]

You still haven't said anything about what kind of character or build you want to play. Anyone can recommend a Rainbow Dreadsnake w/a wizard level and Versatile Spellcaster, or a Mailman build, or a Batman-style Incantatrix, or an Anima Mage, or a UM/Sublime Chord with an absurd caster level, or any other number of builds. You need to be more specific.

True.
Well lets say that im more about control and staying alive.
Campaign will apparently be hard and in underdark.
Planing to be cahotic neutral so beeing a bit selfish is not a problem.

[dextercorvia]

If you're actually using UM, and want to be a **** about it, you could go Spontaneous Divination Wizard 5/UM 6/Ur-Priest 2/Mystic Theurge 2/(Some Divine-progressing PrCs 5 or MT +3)/Whatever the hell you want that progresses casting to get 20 in both, or martial adept, or whatever. You cast as a 13th level wizard at level 10, a fifteen at 11, and it just progresses obviously from there.

This does not work. Your class features will overlap rather than stack. A Wizard5/UM10 casts as a 15th level wizard with a +4 to CL.

[Godskook]

Assuming you want *HIGH* powered, I suggest building an Ultimate Magus Dragonwrought Kobold.

At level 5, you're Wizard 4/Sorc 1, with at least Dragonwrought and Draconic Reservoir. At Ultimate Magus 1, progress your sorcerer side, take practiced caster(sorc), and perform the greater rite of passage. By ECL 15, you're effectively a Sorc 12 and Wizard 14. If you take Legacy Champion, you'll reach Wizard 18 and Sorcerer 16, or you can simply choose your prestige class of choice and end with Wizard 18 and Sorc 12.

The benefit of such a build is that it bypasses the fundamental nerf that's involved in the supposedly high-powered recharge-magic variant, and that's your ability to throw out high-level spells within the same combat. And the build is perfectly functional without the kobold and legacy champion cheese, just slightly less potent(Although you might want to add Illumian to the build to keep your wizard levels up).

[kabreras]

Well ultimate magus look quite bad to me... way too many lost levels of spells or am i missing some part of it ?

[Big Fau]

Well ultimate magus look quite bad to me... way too many lost levels of spells or am i missing some part of it ?

Wizard 4/Sorcerer 1/UM 10, taking Practiced Spellcaster on the Sorcerer side. You end up only losing 2 levels from UM, and can use Dragonwrought Kobold to decrease the lost levels further.

The end result is a character with 9th level spells and free metamagic several times each day.

[kabreras]

There is something i must be missing i count 4 levels loss not 2.
Practiced spellcaster only bump the caster level not the max spell level you can cast. I really miss how you manage to end up with just 2 levels missing.

Canot be a kobold.

[Big Fau]

There is something i must be missing i count 4 levels loss not 2.
Practiced spellcaster only bump the caster level not the max spell level you can cast. I really miss how you manage to end up with just 2 levels missing.

Canot be a kobold.

The advancement of UM is based on Caster Level, not on actual spellcasting ability. Practiced Spellcaster increases your Sorcerer side's caster level, tricking UM into progressing Wizard first.


You only need 1 level of Sorcerer to enter UM as a result. Other tricks can be used to increase your effective Sorcerer caster level, thus applying the advancement UM provides to Wizard even further.

[kabreras]

i see that it increase the caster level.. but i really dont get where these 4 missing levels of spells come from... sure i will cast spells i can cast as a level way highter as i could .. but at level 15 i will be still stuck with levels 6 spells when i should start hiting level 8 spells

NVM i got it after reading the text 10 times

[Godskook]

Ultimate Magus checks total caster level, not effective class levels, for determining what classes you're allowed to apply the spellcaster increases to at levels 1, 4 and 7. With practiced caster, you can increase one of your classes by as much as +4. On its own, this is enough to ensure that you only lose 2 levels of wizard by level 15(1 to Sorcerer, 1 to UM 7). With Illumian, you can bump both classes by an additional +2, up to a max of your HD. When you take UM 7 as an Illumian(Krau) with practiced caster(sorcerer), you still have equal caster levels on both sides.

[gkathellar]

Ultimate Magus is fun, but for the most part there's very little it does that can't be done better by a different build, non-UM. It does do one thing really well, though: exploiting Sublime Chord for stupid-high caster level.

See, SC sets your caster level for all arcane spells to the total of your SC levels and your level in one other arcane casting class. And since UM progresses both SC and wizard ... bam.

You'll need Bardic Music for entry, of course, which costs you a wizard level absent Dragon Magazine. But Wizard 8/Bard 1/Sublime Chord 1/UM 10 nets you CL 30 out of the box, without any further optimization, and won't cost you more than Practiced Spellcaster (Bard) so long as you take your UM level as early as possible.

Other builds ... this is pretty high-cheese, but I'm fond of it: you can play an Ikea Beholder Mage dropping a level of wizard on any spontaneous arcane caster alongside Versatile Spellcaster. Since spells in your spellbook are technically spells known, you can use Versatile Spellcaster to turn your spontaneous spell slots into any spell in your spellbook without preparation. (I'm personally fond of dropping this on Rainbow Necrosnakes alongside IotSV, so you get almost every spell and a character built around rainbows.)

Aside from somewhat specific builds and tricks along those lines, building a wizard is really just a question of taking good PrCs and good feats and knowing how to use your spells.

[Little Brother]

This does not work. Your class features will overlap rather than stack. A Wizard5/UM10 casts as a 15th level wizard with a +4 to CL.Not true. There is nothing to indicate this. It is an unnamed bonus from multiple sources. So, bull. No. Not true.

[ericgrau]

Looks like the old spell lists got buried too deep in google and I can't find a link to one. So I'll repost a sample list I used that worked extremely well:

Level Name
0 Message
Read Magic
Detect Poison
Detect Magic
Open/Close
Light
Mage Hand
Mending
Prestidigitation
1 Mage Armor
Shield
Feather Fall
Alarm
Benign Transportation (SC)
2 False Life*
Invisibility
Melf’s Acid Arrow ^
Glitterdust*
Baleful Transportation (SC) ^
3 Invisibility Sphere ^
Shrink Item: on a rotating (caster level) cycle so (caster
level) items were always affected. Good for
carrying several large objects from the PH
equipment table.
Fireball
Protection from Energy
4 Dimension Door
Solid Fog*
Otiluke’s Resilent Sphere*
Greater Invisibility*
5 Stoneskin*
Wall of Stone*
Wall of Force *
6 Mass Bear’s Endurance *
Veil
7 Brilliant Aura* (SC)
* Very good in play
^ Bad in play

Another error was that it has way too many low level combat spells, which should be swapped out for extended buffs and so on. You can't cast 20 combat spells in a 5 round combat. I also had a gazillion level 1-2 utility scrolls which worked out well to be ready for anything, no matter how random. For your highest level slots generally you put battlefield control or area debuff into them. The above list has a lot of examples at levels 4 and 5. 6 and 7 didn't have many good options other than repulsion and reverse gravity, but I think solid fog and wall of force are better.

[gkathellar]

Not true. There is nothing to indicate this. It is an unnamed bonus from multiple sources. So, bull. No. Not true.

It's questionable whether having the ability to cast a small number of wizard spells spontaneously turns the wizard into a "spontaneous spellcasting class," however, and unless it does your wizard levels can't benefit from those 7 extra increases.

And by questionable I mean it doesn't work: the wizard is ultimately a prepared casting class even if it has limited spontaneous casting ability, just as the cleric is.

[ericgrau]

There might be differences between a recharge wizard and a non-recharge sorcerer, but the difference between a recharge sorcerer and a recharge wizard is miniscule. One can swap his spells each day, one has a faster recharge. Both are roughly as spontaneous as the other. I might still want to be a sorcerer for 4th level spells because I love them so much and it would suck to wait a long time for another after casting one. But once I have 6th level spells it's not so bad because you can switch back and forth between 3 good levels of spells and I'd probably want wizard.

[kabreras]

Just a last little question,
wouldnt it be better to take beggiler as the spontaneous class, skill wise it look better and got a synergy on the spells per day with wizard int.

[dextercorvia]

Not true. There is nothing to indicate this. It is an unnamed bonus from multiple sources. So, bull. No. Not true.


as if you had also gained a level in both a prepared arcane casting class and a spontaneous arcane casting class to which you belonged before adding the prestige class level.

First, you can only claim that Wizard is a spontaneous class if it has a class ability to spontaneously cast. That rules out everything except Spontaneous Divination.

Second, if you have satisfied the first clause, and you gain a level of Wizard, then you have gained a level in both a prepared class and a spontaneous class. The ability does its work without double leveling. If it had said, "You gain an effective level of X, and you also gain an effective level of Y..." then you might have a case, but fortunately for sanity, it does not.

Third, this is stupid. If you want ultimate arcane power, and you want it now, and you don't care about head injuries from flying rulebooks, check out my Versatile Domain Generalist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10197586&postcount=9). Note: that version only requires one flaw, despite saying you need two.

[Little Brother]

First, you can only claim that Wizard is a spontaneous class if it has a class ability to spontaneously cast. That rules out everything except Spontaneous Divination.Which I explicitly said it was.

Second, if you have satisfied the first clause, and you gain a level of Wizard, then you have gained a level in both a prepared class and a spontaneous class. The ability does its work without double leveling. If it had said, "You gain an effective level of X, and you also gain an effective level of Y..." then you might have a case, but fortunately for sanity, it does not.Exactly. You gain a level of your lower level and a higher level, both of which are one class, so you get both to one class.

Third, this is stupid. If you want ultimate arcane power, and you want it now, and you don't care about head injuries from flying rulebooks, check out my Versatile Domain Generalist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10197586&postcount=9). Note: that version only requires one flaw, despite saying you need two.One, that's even more questionable, two, no, if you want omnipotence, you want the Ardent/Spell-to-power erudite/Cerbremancer. SU transformation makes your spells are free, so wishes are free.

Or, you could go Illumian Cloistered Cleric with Heighten, Earth Sense, Earth spell, and Extra Slot. This gives you a slot 3-8, and two at nine. Or, just Heighten and Extra Slot, for free 8s at level one, and then shuffle into the above, at level 1.

[gkathellar]

Which I explicitly said it was.

Exactly. You gain a level of your lower level and a higher level, both of which are one class, so you get both to one class.

Spontaneous Divination lets you qualify for UM, but Wizard simply isn't a spontaneous casting class, even if it has a limited ability to cast spontaneously.

Again, saying so would be the same as saying that all clerics are spontaneous casters — which they're plainly not.

[dextercorvia]

Exactly. You gain a level of your lower level and a higher level, both of which are one class, so you get both to one class.

No, you get one increase, which satisfies both clauses. As I said, if you argue that the Wizard is both spontaneous and prepared, then the ability granting one level of wizard casting will have done its work.

[Randomguy]

Just a last little question,
wouldnt it be better to take beggiler as the spontaneous class, skill wise it look better and got a synergy on the spells per day with wizard int.

Sublime chord is better than beguiler, which is better than sorcerer. Of course, if you want to get into sublime chord, you need a way to meet the extremely difficult skill requirements as a wizard. Even with beguiler it might not be worth it, since you don't get very high level beguiler casting, so instead of letting you cast multiple high level spells in quick succession, it lets you cast multiple low level spells in quick succession.

Don't specialise and then ban illusion and enchantment if you do UM with beguiler, since if you do, you lose access to the higher level illusions.

[kabreras]

Sublime chord is better than beguiler, which is better than sorcerer. Of course, if you want to get into sublime chord, you need a way to meet the extremely difficult skill requirements as a wizard. Even with beguiler it might not be worth it, since you don't get very high level beguiler casting, so instead of letting you cast multiple high level spells in quick succession, it lets you cast multiple low level spells in quick succession.

Don't specialise and then ban illusion and enchantment if you do UM with beguiler, since if you do, you lose access to the higher level illusions.

As i can see there is no way to get sublime chord without screwing my wizard progression.

As for specializing i wont. only thing that is crap is that i cant get ride of familliar and scribe scroll with the specialist varriants.

[Little Brother]

Spontaneous Divination lets you qualify for UM, but Wizard simply isn't a spontaneous casting class, even if it has a limited ability to cast spontaneously.

Again, saying so would be the same as saying that all clerics are spontaneous casters — which they're plainly not.Here's the deal: Does it prepare spells through a class feature? Yes? Okay, it's a prepared caster. Casts spontaneously through a class feature? Okay, it's a spontaneous caster. Therefore, yes, the cleric is a spontaneous caster of sorts.

No, you get one increase, which satisfies both clauses. As I said, if you argue that the Wizard is both spontaneous and prepared, then the ability granting one level of wizard casting will have done its work.Not how it works. It isn't a satisfy thing, it is a flat gain. What you're saying is that, if I'm gestalting with two classes that, say, get +2 strength each, unnamed, I then only get +2, not +4, because it satisfies both, or if I go Fighter/Feat Rogue or Psychic Warrior, I gain 1 feat every two levels, because the bonus feats satisfy each other, which is absurd.

[kabreras]

so i end up with this :

"Amaris: Female Illumian Wiz4/Beg1/UlM5; CR 10;
Medium Humanoid(human);
HD 9d4+1d6+30;
Init +3; Spd 30 ft/x4;
AC 13 (+3 dex), touch 13, flat-footed 10;
Base Atk/Grapple +4/+3;
SA&SQ ;
AL CN; SV Fort +8, Ref +8, Will +13;
Str 8 (-1), Dex 16 (+3), Con 16 (+3), Int 24 (+7), Wis 10 (+0), Cha 10 (+0);;

Racial Abilities:
× Base land speed of 30 feet.
× Luminous Sigils (Su): The sigils that orbit your head glow softly,
providing illumination equal to that of a candle. You can make them
diseapear as a standard action and reapear as a free action, you don't
receive the sigils beneficts while they are doused.
× Glyphic Resonance (Ex): You interact strangely with symbol-based spells.
× Power Sigils (Su): One or more of your sigils glows brightly and
provides certain bonuses.
× Krau: +2 bonus to caster level for all spells and spell-like
abilities (up to a maximum value equal to the illumian’s character level).
× Vaul: +2 bonus on Charisma checks and Charisma-based skill checks.
× Illumian Words (Su): Combinations of power sigils make an Illumian word
of great power granting extra abilities.
× Vaulkrau: Twice per day, the illumian can expend a spell slot (but
not a slot holding a prepared spell) as an immediate action to gain an
insight bonus equal to the spell’s level on the next saving throw she
makes before the start of her next turn.
× Final Utterance (Ex): At death your body releases the stored Illumian
language for 1 round per Hit Die.
× +2 racial bonus on saves vs spells with the shadow descriptor.
× Superior Literacy: Illumians are always literate. Speak Language is
always a class skill.
× Favored Class: Any

Class Abilities:
× Trapfinding(Ex): You can use the Search skill to locate traps when the
task has a DC higher than 20. You can use the Disable Device skill to
disarm magic traps.
× Armored Mage(Ex): You may wear light armor with no chance of arcane
spell failure.(Beggiler)
× Arcane Spell Power(Ex): Your caster level for all arcane spells
increases by 2.
× Expanded Spell Knowledge(Ex): See Pg.78 CM.
× Augmented Casting(Su): You can choose to sacrifice a spell or spell
slot from one of your classes to apply the effect of a metamagic feat
that you know to a spell cast using another arcane class. 5/day

Skills: Concentration¹ +16, Diplomacy¹ +8, Knowledge (arcana) +15, Knowledge (arch & eng) +8, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +8, Knowledge (geography) +8, Knowledge (history) +8, Knowledge (local) +11, Knowledge (nature) +8, Knowledge (nobility) +12, Knowledge (religion) +8, Knowledge (the planes) +8, Listen¹ +5, Search¹ +14, Spellcraft +22, Spot¹ +7, Use Magic Device +15;

Feats: Scribe Scroll(PH 99)², Empower Spell(PH 93), Still Spell(PH 101), Practiced Spellcaster(CAr 82) (Beguiler), Sculpt Spell(CAr 83), Transdimensional Spell(CAr 84);

[dextercorvia]

Not how it works. It isn't a satisfy thing, it is a flat gain. What you're saying is that, if I'm gestalting with two classes that, say, get +2 strength each, unnamed, I then only get +2, not +4, because it satisfies both, or if I go Fighter/Feat Rogue or Psychic Warrior, I gain 1 feat every two levels, because the bonus feats satisfy each other, which is absurd.

Actually, that is exactly how it works....


Class features that two classes share (such as uncanny dodge) accrue at the rate of the faster class.

You have one class that is both a prepared and a spontaneous casting class. You have an ability that adds one level of casting to both a prepared and a spontaneous class. Adding one level of casting to that class increases your spontaneous casting ability by one level, and your prepared casting ability by one level.

If you allowed it to double up, the net effect would be increasing a prepared class by 2 effective casting levels, and a spontaneous class by the same amount. That would conflict with the wording of the ability.

[kabreras]

Ah well i did found what i was looking for in UA, swaped scribe scroll for improved initiative.

[Little Brother]

Actually, that is exactly how it works....



You have one class that is both a prepared and a spontaneous casting class. You have an ability that adds one level of casting to both a prepared and a spontaneous class. Adding one level of casting to that class increases your spontaneous casting ability by one level, and your prepared casting ability by one level.

If you allowed it to double up, the net effect would be increasing a prepared class by 2 effective casting levels, and a spontaneous class by the same amount. That would conflict with the wording of the ability.No, it wouldn't It tells you what you get, not the result. If I give you an apple and an orange, you have one of each, for two fruit, but if I give you a red apple and a green apple, you end up with two apples. Does this change the fact that you got two separate pieces of fruit? No. You still received the same thing. The class features don't give a damn about the effects, just what you directly get.

And adding one to the prepared casting and one to the spontaneous are TWO SEPARATE EFFECTS! The fact that it happens to get you farther is irrelevant. Competence and luck bonuses stack. Two unnamed bonuses from different sources stack. This isn't like uncanny dodge. Uncanny dodge gives you the flat "Rogue of blah blah blah..." Period. That's it. It doesn't advance jack ****. This is the same. Nice try, though.

[dextercorvia]

The ability isn't giving you an apple and an orange. It is increasing your pool of apples and your pool of oranges by one.

You have a fruit which is a weird apple/orange combo. Therefore, increasing your apple pool and orange pool by one is equivalent to giving you one more of your combo fruit.