Warrior Beats Wizard

[Anthrowhale]

I'd like to suggest an approach for a weapons type that can beat a wizard, using a combination of tricks. The tricks are:

Custom Antimagic field items
Incorporeal (via Psion Uncarnate)
True Mindswitch into a 34HD Huge Solar (via UPD)
Elvencraft Serren Wood longbow
Bloodstorm Blade 2

Classes look something like:

Fighter 2/Psion 1/Barbarian 1/Warblade 1/Psion Uncarnate 10/Bloodstorm Blade 2/Crusader 2/Warblade 1

Alignment: nonlawful, not true neutral

Feats should look like:
1. Hidden talent (for Psion Un.)
1. (human) Pierce Magical Protection
1. (flaw) Psionic Body (for Psion Un.)
1. (flaw) Mage Slayer
1. (Fighter) Blind-fight (for PMC)
2. (Fighter) Pierce Magical Concealment
3. (psion) Practiced Manifester (for Psychic Chirurgery)
3. Point Blank Shot (req: bloodstorm blade)
between 5&6: Psychic Chirurgery (works via WBL)
6. Combat Reflexes
9+ free
At higher level: True Mind Switch, possibly with double Psychic Reformation to boost UPD enough.

Abilities should look like:
Str enough to survive
Dex enough to survive
Con high
Int 14
Wis 14
Chr who cares?

Items consist of:
Elvencraft Serren wood longbows (+backups)
Flight Arrows
Custom Item of continuous widened AMF.
Barbed Arrows (where are rules for that?) with custom single use AMF enchantment.

The tricks:
AMF+incorporeal makes us immune to 99% of direct attacks from a wizard and most indirect attacks. All spells are suppressed by AMF and all conjuration effects are nonmagical at the point of impact. Mord's disjunction works, but it's an L9 spell, and we'll have two AMFs up to stop it in expectation.
A solar gives us fly 150'(good) which is overwhelmingly fast compared to most movement modes + regen 15 + DR/15. This allows us to avoid anything nasty, and with a Barbarian Pounce full attack in a broad range.
Elvencraft Serren wood longbows have ghost touch and can be used as a quarterstaff. In combination with Bloodstorm Blade 2 this lets us throw anything as a melee attack, implying that we ignore armor, natural armor, shield, and all magical AC (via Pierce magical protection), making up for our otherwise pathetic BAB.
We qualify for Psion Uncarnate by taking practiced manifester+Hidden Talent + Psychic Chirurgery during level 5, which just works according to WBL.
And for extra fun, the single use-activated AMF arrows are invulnerable to friendly fire, and stick the wizard in the middle of an AMF bubble.
Levels of Crusader give thicket of blades which means that if we get close to the wizard, all magic is lost _and_ there is an AOO for casting or movement.

We lose on initiatve and we lose on AC, but that seems unavoidable.

[AmberVael]

If you optimize this thoroughly, then you must assume your enemy will also. At which point, defeating the wizard is going to be nigh impossible, as it is highly unlikely that you will ever be able to engage the actual wizard... especially as you have no real skills to track them. They'll just use various tricks to hide, and attack you with various projections and/or minions, particularly ones tailored to fight you once they divine your capabilities.

Also, every time someone makes a custom AMF item, another spellcaster finds a way to take Initiate of Mystra. :smalltongue:

[gkathellar]

Remind me what UPD is?


Also, every time someone makes a custom AMF item, another spellcaster finds a way to take Initiate of Mystra. :smalltongue:

This is really pretty important. The Cheater is going to turn you into a fine paste on the wall.

[AmberVael]

Remind me what UPD is?

Use Psionic Device, presumably.

[Telonius]

Mage Slayer has a prereq of BAB +3; you can't get it before 3rd level. If you take Psion before Barbarian, you won't meet that requirement until 6. That also pushes Pierce Magical Protection and Pierce Magical Concealment back, since they both have MS as a prereq.

Normally I'd say that a reading of psionic-magic transparency that applies to items and powers, but not feats, reeks of cheese (if technically legal). But you are sending this guy up against Batman, so I'd let it slide.

[gkathellar]

Also, how is this build getting reliable access to a 34HD Solar? It's not impossible, but the build needs to specify.

And on that note, how will it then ensure the Solar fails its save vs. True Mind Switch? If it can't ensure that, how will it survive fighting 34HD Solars over and over again until it gets one that fails its save?

[ShriekingDrake]

To me, this is also only a pseudo-warrior. Psionics are just another form of spellcasting--not that there's anything wrong with that or your pursuit in general.

Generally speaking, in my opinion, the best way for a warrior to beat a wizard, is to encounter that wizard at low levels.

[CTrees]

Right, so a gish, built off a tier one casting side, could maybe fight a tier one caster, assuming a lot of luck (finding a 34HD solar and having it fail a save, for starters) and some very cheesy rules interpretations.

*yawn*

[Eldan]

Yeah. At level 1 or 2, you can probably just ambush the wizard and put two longbow arrows into him before he has a chance to react.

[candycorn]

UMD + Skill Cheese + Custom Staff with Disjunction.

Get UMD to a level that will hit a check of 120 via spells, buffs, item familiars, and the like.

Emulate the caster level of a level 100 wizard with a casting stat of 100 for purposes of using the staff. Activate Disjunction from the staff at CL 100, with a Save DC of 64.

Every AMF is gone.
Every spell buff is gone.
Unless your Will save is higher than +45, 95% of magic items are gone.
Follow up with a UMD Staff Hold Monster, then drop about 40 negative levels onto it.
For more fun, use Astral Projections.

Doesn't even really need a wizard. An Expert 20 could do this, and a Factotum 20 or Factotum 10/Chameleon 10 could do it easier.

There's little that proper optimization can't kill.

But, on a side note:


Summoned or conjured creatures of any type, as well as incorporeal creatures, wink out if they enter the area of an antimagic effect. They reappear in the same spot once the field goes away.You won't be killed, true... But only because you won't exist while the AMF is up.

[Anthrowhale]

If you optimize this thoroughly, then you must assume your enemy will also. At which point, defeating the wizard is going to be nigh impossible, as it is highly unlikely that you will ever be able to engage the actual wizard... especially as you have no real skills to track them. They'll just use various tricks to hide, and attack you with various projections and/or minions, particularly ones tailored to fight you once they divine your capabilities.


I agree here. This is only useful with some form of strategic surprise like underestimation of the warrior, if the wizard is somehow otherwise confined to a not-too-large-arena, or if the wizard has something they really want to protect. Edit: or on defense.



Also, every time someone makes a custom AMF item, another spellcaster finds a way to take Initiate of Mystra. :smalltongue:

Sure, but IoM is setting specific while everything here is generic, and it feels like some accomplishment to withstand even a normal wizard's attack.


Mage Slayer has a prereq of BAB +3; you can't get it before 3rd level. If you take Psion before Barbarian, you won't meet that requirement until 6. That also pushes Pierce Magical Protection and Pierce Magical Concealment back, since they both have MS as a prereq.


Good catch.


Also, how is this build getting reliable access to a 34HD Solar?

You'd need a party to help out, but the AM fields should be very helpful here in capturing. In any case, size huge vs. large is a minor optimization for damage and reach.


To me, this is also only a pseudo-warrior. Psionics are just another form of spellcasting--not that there's anything wrong with that or your pursuit in general.

Note that I'm not using the psionics at all, because they don't work in an AMF.


UMD + Skill Cheese + Custom Staff with Disjunction.


UMD(disjunction) is definitely a solid approach. You must also win initiative and spot.



You won't be killed, true... But only because you won't exist while the AMF is up.

I'm not sure where your text comes from, but here:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/antimagicField.htm
it says "incorporeal undead". A solar isn't undead.

[AmberVael]

I'm not sure where your text comes from, but here:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/antimagicField.htm
it says "incorporeal undead". A solar isn't undead.

Doing a quick check, rules compendium actually updates this to say incorporeal creature. Anything incorporeal does not exist in antimagic.

[candycorn]

I'm not sure where your text comes from, but here:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/antimagicField.htm
it says "incorporeal undead". A solar isn't undead.

General Rules for Antimagic Effects (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#antimagic).

As long as there is no contradiction, an AMF would follow all rules for both, unless there is a contradiction.

On another note, a custom AMF item cannot work.
Magic items with continuous effects do not function in the area of an antimagic effect, but their effects are not canceled (so the contents of a bag of holding are unavailable, but neither spill out nor disappear forever).
If it creates an AMF effect, the item ceases to function. If it ceases to function, it cannot create the effect.

[gkathellar]

Doing a quick check, rules compendium actually updates this to say incorporeal creature. Anything incorporeal does not exist in antimagic.

So this build causes itself to wink out of existence?

/thread

[candycorn]

Another Side note: Solars lose their DR in an AMF. DR/Epic is supernatural. There are likely other things you'd lose too.

[Cardea]

So this build causes itself to wink out of existence?

/thread

/slowclap. That's beautiful.

[CTrees]

You'd need a party to help out, but the AM fields should be very helpful here in capturing [the solar].

So... you're using True Mindswitch, in an anti-magic field, with magic/psionic transparency?

[Geigan]

So this build causes itself to wink out of existence?

/thread
Permanent Time Hop (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/timeHop.htm)! Except entirely useless!

[gkathellar]

Indeed. It's like the Arcane Swordsage's infinite Time Stop — except that instead of getting to create the universe by achieving infinite power over a single moment, you get to be excluded from the universe by being shunted an infinite distance into the future.

[Dr.Epic]

If you optimize this thoroughly, then you must assume your enemy will also.

Seconded. You've created a very specific build to beat an average strength wizard. The build is only goo for beating wizards. A wizard with a very specific to beat warriors, I see the wizard winning.

[TheCountAlucard]

Again, I gotta make the suggestion: if you wanna play a game in which Wizards are not necessarily godlike in power, and their dominance over other classes is no sure thing, why not play another system? :smallsigh:

[Geigan]

Indeed. It's like the Arcane Swordsage's infinite Time Stop — except that instead of getting to create the universe by achieving infinite power over a single moment, you get to be excluded from the universe by being shunted an infinite distance into the future.

So it's like the ultimate achievement in personal Nihilism? "**** this universe, I'm out."

[Anthrowhale]

As long as there is no contradiction, an AMF would follow all rules for both, unless there is a contradiction.


RAW there is a contradiction. In particular, the AMF spell in PH3.5 says "incorporeal undead wink out if they enter an antimagic field". A general principle in reading a description is that things not described do not occur, and so incorporeal nonundead, magic items, my friend Bob, grass, stones, etc.. do not wink out, turn into soup, or otherwise change state.

The general rules for resolving contradictions are: specific beats general and later rules beat earlier rules.

Specific beats general says incorporeal nonundead do not wink out because the spell description is more specific than the general effect. (Incidentally, this rule also applies to the nonstandard incorporeality of Psion Uncarnate.)

Later beats earlier suggests incorporeal nonundead wink out because the Rules Compendium came later than PHB. However the SRD was simultaneous with the PHB, right? In which case this would not be later beats earlier.

I just checked, and there is no official errata for PHB3.5 AM field.

So do incorporeal nonundead wink out in an spell-based AM field? I'm leaning towards "no", as specific beats general is clear here while later beats earlier is ambiguous. And incidentally, balance-wise, this doesn't screw anything up.

An extra credit question is: What happens to a Necropolitan IoM (Permeable Form) in an AMF? My answer is no wink-out, because the specific rules of IoM beat general again.



On another note, a custom AMF item cannot work.
If it creates an AMF effect, the item ceases to function. If it ceases to function, it cannot create the effect.

That is not correct, two ways. The first is by noting the existence of Antimagic Torc in Underdark (page 73), costing a mere 25k. The second is by noting that an item can cast a spell with a duration. If the spell happens to be AMF, the item is then suppressed, but since you don't need the item after the spell is cast this is irrelevant.


Another Side note: Solars lose their DR in an AMF. DR/Epic is supernatural.

How do you know? The monster manual just says "Ex or Su".


So... you're using True Mindswitch, in an anti-magic field, with magic/psionic transparency?

That would be silly.

There are two obvious ways to get a solar body. The first approach is to steal one: you (and plausibly a party) simply inflict sufficient damage so that it drops. For methods to do this, see many other high damage builds. The regeneration helps a lot here, because you don't need to be careful. Then you curse it to where all saves are meaningless, and then jack up your UPD and perform the mindswitch (while not in an AMF, obviously).

The other way is to earn it. There is a strong justification that this character is just better than a Solar at doing what a Solar does. A Solar might appreciate this and accept the switch.


The build is only goo for beating wizards.

No. This is a solid combatant. It's damage is not great, but the magic busting touch attack and general invulnerability means that it will eventually win against a great many opponents. The counters I know are IoM, and Metamagic Effect, both of which are setting specific, and buffed UMD(Disjunction staff), which is not, but it's not specific to a wizard.


So it's like the ultimate achievement in personal Nihilism? "**** this universe, I'm out."

It definitely works for a necropolitan Psion Uncarnate.

[Tr011]

The basic of the build is that Psionics/Magic are not transparent. Ok, this may be in a world. This build is made to kill any wizard of level 20 or lower by beeing level 20 or lower on himself. Be sure the wizard will use psionics as well (should be default for all wizards in not transparent world for various reasons).

[Anthrowhale]

The basic of the build is that Psionics/Magic are not transparent.

This is incorrect. I'm assuming that the AMF suppresses psionics, just as it suppresses spells.

[CTrees]

On the anti-magic field... from the SRD, on the general effect of anti-magic fields: "Summoned or conjured creatures of any type, as well as incorporeal creatures, wink out if they enter the area of an antimagic effect. They reappear in the same spot once the field goes away." The spell would be the specific rule, trumping the general description. However, while the spell states that summons and incorporeal undead wink out, it does not state anything about what happens to incorporeal creatures which are not undead. Therefore, one must default to the general description, which would be that ALL incorporeal creatures wink out in an AMF. As the SRD includes psionics, we can assume the general description of AMFs would have specified if it was intended to exclude creatures which gained incorporeality through psionics. Thus, one must assume it does not include such creatures. Transparency or not, you're still stuck. The SRD should be the most up to date rules, yes?

All in all, this don't work at my table.

[Tr011]

o.O and True Mind Switch doesn't care?
Btw IIRC there's only a 50% chance of affecting each other, maybe you should get a Null-psionics field as well.

[Gavinfoxx]

Have you read this, regarding antimagic?

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10104

[Geigan]

The SRD should be the most up to date rules, yes?

Not quite. The SRD only includes the information from the first printing of the core books and the errata on their website which unfortunately doesn't get everything. It neglects the errata you'll find in the rules comp. as well as things changed in later printings of the core books. It's good most of the time, but it has an error or two.

[gkathellar]

Later beats earlier suggests incorporeal nonundead wink out because the Rules Compendium came later than PHB. However the SRD was simultaneous with the PHB, right? In which case this would not be later beats earlier.

I just checked, and there is no official errata for PHB3.5 AM field.

Rules Compendium is definitive, and contains things not necessarily addressed in errata (page 11, paragraph 4, sentence 2, incidentally).


How do you know? The monster manual just says "Ex or Su".

Rules Compendium, page 41. Again, definitive.


It definitely works for a necropolitan Psion Uncarnate.

And also for that other, non-undead kind.

[Keld Denar]

RC trumps the PHB. RC says that all incorps wink out in an AMF.

Also, it was clarified somewhere, probably the RC. DR that is overcome by a type of weapon or material is Ex. DR that is overcome my magic or an alignment is SU. Since DR Epic is overcome by using a weapon with a +6 or higher enhancement bonus (magic) it is most definately SU. DR - is Ex, as well, IIRC.

As far as the AMF torc, its not continuous, its use activated. It generates an AMF effect, basically casting it as a spell. The effect is created, and the item is no longer doing any work. It is sustained by its own energy in the same way an AMF cast by a Wizard is sustained. Your custom item is creating a continuous effect. It is constantly emitting magic, except that its own magic prevents it from emmiting that magic. The item can't continue to do work if it is non-magical, and if its non-magical, it should work, which in turn prohibits itself from working. As a use activated item, it can exist. As a continuous item, it can not. Well, unless you had an item that produced a 1/day Persistant AMF. I don't even want to know what the pricing on that would be...

[Anthrowhale]

The spell would be the specific rule, trumping the general description. However, while the spell states that summons and incorporeal undead wink out, it does not state anything about what happens to incorporeal creatures which are not undead.

I agree up to here.



Therefore, one must default to the general description, which would be that ALL incorporeal creatures wink out in an AMF.


Here I disagree. Changes not specified by a spell don't occur by default. You're trying to make an exception so that wizards can rule in their standard way.



As the SRD includes psionics, we can assume the general description of AMFs would have specified if it was intended to exclude creatures which gained incorporeality through psionics.

The method of gaining incorporeality seems irrelevant to whether or not all incorporeal creatures wink out.



The SRD should be the most up to date rules, yes?


Again, there is no errata for PHB3.5 concerning the AMF spell.


o.O and True Mind Switch doesn't care?


True Mind Switch is an Instantaneous effect. You apply it during a brief moment without AMF and then live with the results.



Btw IIRC there's only a 50% chance of affecting each other, maybe you should get a Null-psionics field as well.

I don't understand.


Have you read this, regarding antimagic?

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10104

Yeah, that's a nice post.

[CTrees]

Not quite. The SRD only includes the information from the first printing of the core books and the errata on their website which unfortunately doesn't get everything. It neglects the errata you'll find in the rules comp. as well as things changed in later printings of the core books. It's good most of the time, but it has an error or two.

Ah, quite. And... as two people have stated, while the forums were being unresponsive for me after I checked the RC, yeah, being incorporeal in an AMF is a great way to not die, but not a good way to get anything done, as you definitely do not exist for the duration.

Plus, yeah, DR/epic is SU, per the RC.

EDIT: Argh, stupid forums "too busy" grumble grumble

Real Edit: RC citation for the antimagic is page 11. Vael is listing a slightly easier to read form of my opinion (obviously, we're in agreement). I'm done fighting arguing about this build - RAW, it doesn't work in a handful of ways, but I suspect you're not going to be dissuaded. All I can say is, it wouldn't work at my table, but it'd be up to you to convince your DM/the theoretical judge in whatever arena match you used this in.

[gkathellar]

Again, there is no errata for PHB3.5 concerning the AMF spell.

It's been pointed out that Rules Compendium trumps SRD and general errata, and that according to the RC your build doesn't work. I can give you the page citations again, but the point is that you have no ground to stand on with this claim. EDIT: Especially given the Antimagic section in Rule Compendium specifically mentions it refers to the Antimagic Field spell.

[AmberVael]

Here I disagree. Changes not specified by a spell don't occur by default. You're trying to make an exception so that wizards can rule in their standard way.

The logic here is as follows:

1) Antimagic Field states how summoned creatures, and incorporeal undead are affected. It says nothing about other types.
2) Antimagic Field creates antimagic.
3) The general rules on antimagic state that all incorporeal creatures are affected in a certain way.
4) Antimagic Field does not specifically state an exception to the general antimagic rules.
5) Therefore, Antimagic Field affects incorporeal creatures as per the general antimagic rules.

And the general antimagic rules (which are listed in the Rules Compendium, which is to my knowledge is the most recent of rules errata, and supersedes generally anything in previous books), state that the way incorporeal creatures are affected is that they wink out while antimagic lasts.


Also, if the solar's DR is supernatural, then not only does it not work in antimagic, but the character in question would never gain it in the first place due to the wording of True Mind Switch.

[Anthrowhale]

Rules Compendium is definitive, and contains things not necessarily addressed in errata (page 11, paragraph 4, sentence 2, incidentally).


Ok. So Rules Compendium definitive implies wink out, and no one else believes the specific-beats-general argument here. I'll accept that.

But what about the extracredit question: What happens to an Initiate of Mystra casting Permeable Form in an AMF? Initiate of Mystra definitely states an AMF mechanics exception, so it seems general-to-specific should beat rules compendium here and you get incorporeal in an AMF, although not in this build.



Rules Compendium, page 41. Again, definitive.


Good to know.



As far as the AMF torc, its not continuous, its use activated.


This seems like a cosmetic distinction when considering custom items. Consider the custom AMF item use activated.

[gkathellar]

But what about the extracredit question: What happens to an Initiate of Mystra casting Permeable Form in an AMF? Initiate of Mystra definitely states an AMF mechanics exception, so it seems general-to-specific should beat rules compendium here and you get incorporeal in an AMF, although not in this build.

Initiate of Mystra lets you cast spells in an AMF, and prevents spells with a duration from being instantly cancelled. It says nothing about negating the effects of and AMF on Incorporealness — by RAW, even with IoM you cease to exist until either AMF or Permeable Form ran out of duration.

Which is kind of stupid, but then IoM is also stupid, so it evens out.

[Anthrowhale]

Initiate of Mystra lets you cast spells in an AMF, and prevents spells with a duration from being instantly cancelled. It says nothing about negating the effects of and AMF on Incorporealness — by RAW, even with IoM you cease to exist until either AMF or Permeable Form ran out of duration.


I disagree---it specifically states that AMF effects are negated.

RAW is "In an antimagic field ... your spells function normally." The normal function of Permeable Form is not ceasing to exist, just like the normal function of any spell is not being suppressed by the AMF.

[MukkTB]

Mage slayers are things that exist in E6 or worlds where there aren't many NPCs over level 5 or so. If you really want to have one around I wouldn't recomend worrying about a build beyond level 8.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

First off, that's not a fighter, that's a psi-gish.

Second off, you're a couple of days early. Fighter vs Wizard threads are for Wednesday. Today is Monkday.

[Anthrowhale]

First off, that's not a fighter, that's a psi-gish.

It looks that way, but the Psion level is just there to provide 3 power points, Knowledge(psionics) 8 and Psicraft 8. It's not really using psionics otherwise.



Second off, you're a couple of days early. Fighter vs Wizard threads are for Wednesday. Today is Monkday.

Sorry, flying Wednesday :)

[gkathellar]

RAW is "In an antimagic field ... your spells function normally." The normal function of Permeable Form is not ceasing to exist, just like the normal function of any spell is not being suppressed by the AMF.

The normal function of Permeable Form is becoming incorporeal. This is the effect of the spell, and until the spell's duration runs out of it is dispelled, its target has the (Incorporeal) subtype.

Because of Initiate of Mystra, Permeable Form may be cast and continue to exist in the radius of an antimagic field with a successful check, as per: "If this check is successful, your spell functions normally."

(Incorporeal) creatures interact uniquely with antimagic fields, as per: "Summoned creatures of any type disappear if they enter an antimagic area. Incorporeal creatures do the same. These creatures reappear in the same spot once the antimagic effect goes away, unless they were summoned by an effect whose duration has expired."

There is no real conflict or interaction between these statements. IoM lets you cast the spell, and the spell takes effect normally, granting the (Incorporeal) subtype. Creatures with the (Incorporeal) subtype cease to exist in an antimagic field, something IoM has no effect on.

[Keld Denar]

Ok. So Rules Compendium definitive implies wink out, and no one else believes the specific-beats-general argument here. I'll accept that.
Its not a matter of specific or generality (which in itself is arguable 99% of the time). Its a mater of rules hierarchy. RC is the top document when it comes to rules clarifications, being pretty much the last book ever published for 3.5 and being the primary source for rules. If RC states that it happens a certain way, then it happens a certain way, barring houserules.


This seems like a cosmetic distinction when considering custom items. Consider the custom AMF item use activated.
Then it would simply be a matter of creating an unlimited use item, which the custom item rules do allow for, and it would create a half a round of vulnerability every couple hours or so (depending on the CL of the item, which directly factors into its cost). The basic item would be 132,000g. The highest you could make the item pre-epic is 16, since a CL17 one would cost you more than 200,000 (and thus make it an epic item subject to epic cost multipliers. So it would last for 16*10/60=2 hours 40 minutes. Sure, its not a LONG vulnerability time, and its not very frequent, but its something you'd have to notice and pick up on, and reactivate. And it could be something that could be divined about you with a Contact Other Plane, a common Wiz-o trick.

And again, thats assuming that you can even be incorp in an AMF, which its looking dramatically like you can't.

[Randomguy]

You won't be killed, true... But only because you won't exist while the AMF is up.

Does this mean that if you put antimagic shackles on an incorporeal creature, they're permanently erased from reality? Because that would be an awesome way to kill a big bad.

I call your magicless doom-ghost and raise you one astral projection, cast by an astral projection, cast by an astral projection, each on a seperate demiplane, that casts spells through a permanently invisible ring gate held by the astral projection's familiar.

[Anthrowhale]

The normal function of Permeable Form is becoming incorporeal. This is the effect of the spell, and until the spell's duration runs out of it is dispelled, its target has the (Incorporeal) subtype.


Permeable form does not explicitly grant the incorporeal subtype. (FTR, ghostform does, explicitly.)



(Incorporeal) creatures interact uniquely with antimagic fields, as per: "Summoned creatures of any type disappear if they enter an antimagic area. Incorporeal creatures do the same. These creatures reappear in the same spot once the antimagic effect goes away, unless they were summoned by an effect whose duration has expired."


Consider this argument w.r.t. summoning instead. It implies that an IoM cannot summon a creature within an AMF. But, I could call this abnormal behavior w.r.t. spell outcome.

The core issue: Does 'spells function normally' imply they are not suppressed within an AMF, or does it mean the spells function as if not in an AMF? You are interpreting it as the first, but the second seems simpler to me.

There is another issue, which relates even to this build: If a creature ceases to exist, it's emanations cease to exist. AMF is an emanation. If AMF causes the creature to cease to exist, then when AMF ceases to exist, the creature returns.

This is like the previous argument that a continuous AMF item doesn't work because it shuts down the item generating the AMF.

I'm not sure what happens when you run into a paradox (world breaks?), but it must be broken somehow. It's fun to conjecture a semiAMF which does not suppress the effect of instantaneous spells, but does suppress all others.



The highest you could make the item pre-epic is 16, since a CL17 one would cost you more than 200,000 (and thus make it an epic item subject to epic cost multipliers.


A combination of infinite use AMF and 1/day use widened AMF seems fine.

Yes, there is a brief window of vulnerability when you need to retrigger it. Fighting wizards with weapons is tough.

[Zale]

Perhaps this is a stupid question, but how do you intend to damage things?

You're Incorporeal and can't use psionics, right?

So how do you hit things?

[Anthrowhale]

Does this mean that if you put antimagic shackles on an incorporeal creature, they're permanently erased from reality? Because that would be an awesome way to kill a big bad.


Can you force something to be incorporeal? I don't know a method.



I call your magicless doom-ghost and raise you one astral projection, cast by an astral projection, cast by an astral projection, each on a seperate demiplane, that casts spells through a permanently invisible ring gate held by the astral projection's familiar.

Why bother leaving your demiplane?

[Keld Denar]

The issue is, you can't layer it then. Activating your Widget of AMF causes an AMF to spring into being, centered on you, with a duration stated by the CL. While the AMF is running, your amazing Widget of AMF is just an amazing Widget.

You could get like, an Everburning Torch or something. Every time the torch ignites, reactivate the item. Otherwise, you'd have to have some kind of non-magical timer or something. 2 hours and 40 minutes is a really awkward time to count to in your head with a margin of error of 3 seconds, all while doing complicated stuff like saving the world.

[Anthrowhale]

Perhaps this is a stupid question, but how do you intend to damage things?

You're Incorporeal and can't use psionics, right?

So how do you hit things?

Serren Wood bow (BoED) is Ex ghost strike.


The issue is, you can't layer it then. Activating your Widget of AMF causes an AMF to spring into being, centered on you, with a duration stated by the CL. While the AMF is running, your amazing Widget of AMF is just an amazing Widget.

You could get like, an Everburning Torch or something. Every time the torch ignites, reactivate the item. Otherwise, you'd have to have some kind of non-magical timer or something. 2 hours and 40 minutes is a really awkward time to count to in your head with a margin of error of 3 seconds, all while doing complicated stuff like saving the world.

It makes sense.

[gkathellar]

The core issue: Does 'spells function normally' imply they are not suppressed within an AMF, or does it mean the spells function as if not in an AMF? You are interpreting it as the first, but the second seems simpler to me.

You're misunderstanding me. The spell Permeable Form functions normally — it makes you incorporeal. Once it takes effect, the spell Antimagic Field interacts with the spell's now-incorporeal target in a very specific way (existence negation).

In other words, Antimagic Field has no effect on Permeable Form. Rather, it interacts with the outcome of Permeable Form.


There is another issue, which relates even to this build: If a creature ceases to exist, it's emanations cease to exist. AMF is an emanation. If AMF causes the creature to cease to exist, then when AMF ceases to exist, the creature returns.

Yes, and this is why I compared your original build to Arcane Swordsage.

[Anthrowhale]

The spell Permeable Form functions normally — it makes you incorporeal. Once it takes effect, the spell Antimagic Field interacts with the spell's now-incorporeal target in a very specific way (existence negation).


I understand your argument. Do you understand mine?

You believe that 'spell functions normally' means that the spell is not suppressed by AMF. An alternative interpretation is that the spell functions as if there is no AMF. These interpretations differ w.r.t. spell-based summoned and incorporeal creatures.



Yes, and this is why I compared your original build to Arcane Swordsage.

A pointer? I'm not familiar with the exploit.

[olentu]

I understand your argument. Do you understand mine?

You believe that 'spell functions normally' means that the spell is not suppressed by AMF. An alternative interpretation is that the spell functions as if there is no AMF. These interpretations differ w.r.t. spell-based summoned and incorporeal creatures.



A pointer? I'm not familiar with the exploit.

Um yeah whether the spell functions as if there is no antimagic field or is just not suppressed is meaningless because your character is not a spell.

[gkathellar]

You believe that 'spell functions normally' means that the spell is not suppressed by AMF. An alternative interpretation is that the spell functions as if there is no AMF.

Again, there's no difference between the two in this case. The spell functions as normal and makes you incorporeal, as normal. There's no question of that, I agree with you entirely. However, incorporeal creatures cease to exist in an AMF. That's not a statement that conflicts with the previous one in any way.

Permeable Form's effect still fires exactly as normal: you become incorporeal. Once incorporeal, you interact with your environment as an incorporeal creature would — and in this case, your environment is an antimagic field. The environmental interaction between an incorporeal creature and an antimagic field is a temporarily negated existence.

Therefore, once Permeable Form makes you incorporeal, your personal interaction with the AMF in your environment, as an incorpoeal creature, is a temporarily negated existence. The interaction is entirely linear, has nothing to do with the spell that made you incorporeal in the first place, and requires no weird doubling-back or complicated rules interpretation at all.


A pointer? I'm not familiar with the exploit.

Arcane Swordsages get access to infinite nested Time Stops, allowing them to become incarnations of Zeno's Paradox and achieve infinite power within a single moment in time.

[Anthrowhale]

Um yeah whether the spell functions as if there is no antimagic field or is just not suppressed is meaningless because your character is not a spell.

You'll need to read the conversation. This is about what happens when an IoM casts permeable form.


Again, there's no difference between the two in this case.


Still not getting across. You have a particular interpretation of what "spell functions normally" means and keep running through the implications of your interpretation. I agree that under your interpretation, the logic is correct. But, I'm saying that "spell functions normally" has another interpretation which seems more natural to me. Unless you can see the other interpretation, we can't move forward.

Maybe it helps to think about yet another interpretation of "spells functions as normal". Let's consider Vortex of Teeth.

Vortex of Teeth's effect still fires exactly as normal: you create jaws doing force damage. VoT interacts with it's environment as any VoT would---and in this case, the environment is an antimagic field. The environmental interactions between VoT and an antimagic field is temporary suppression.

See the parallel?

There are (at least) three interpretations of "spell functions normally":
(1) (alterna) IoM allows you to cast any spell, but AM effects the result as normal, including spell suppression and wink out.
(2) (yours) IoM allows you to cast any spell and eliminates the spell suppression clause in AMF but not the wink out clause.
(3) (mine) IoM allows you to cast any spell and eliminates all AM interactions with the result including spell suppression and wink out.

Interpretations (1) and (3) seem more natural than (2) to me, because (2) is halfway between (1) and (3).



Arcane Swordsages get access to infinite nested Time Stops, allowing them to become incarnations of Zeno's Paradox and achieve infinite power within a single moment in time.

Impressive loop.

[olentu]

You'll need to read the conversation. This is about what happens when an IoM casts permeable form.

Perhaps you can direct me to the language in the feat that makes you a spell cast by yourself. If not then as I said the way in which the feat allows a spell to function normally with regards to antimagic fields is meaningless because you are not a spell.

[gkathellar]

Vortex of Teeth's effect still fires exactly as normal: you create jaws doing force damage. VoT interacts with it's environment as any VoT would---and in this case, the environment is an antimagic field. The environmental interactions between VoT and an antimagic field is temporary suppression.

See the parallel?

This says nothing for your point. The spell Vortex of Teeth (like any other spell you care to name) has an effect, and IoM potentially allows you to ignore the suppression of that effect's occurrence. That's what IoM does. I'm not commenting on that.

But there are specific rules governing how Incorporeal creatures behave in an AMF. Those rules has nothing to do with how they became Incorporeal, or how long they'll be incorporeal — all that matters is that they're incorporeal for that stretch of time. And while they are incorporeal, they will behave according to the rules for incorporeal creatures, barring specific exceptions.

IoM is not such an exception, because it ensures spells fire as written despite the presence of an antimagic field, and nothing more. Just as it allows Vortex of Teeth to create a cloud of damage for its duration, it allows Permeable Form to render you incorporeal for its duration. But what happens to an incorporeal creature as a result of occupying an AMF is beyond the scope of the spell, just as getting hit with an incorporeal object is, even if the spell ultimately enables it.

The AMF is not going to prevent Permeable Form from acting as normal, just as it wouldn't prevent Vortex of Teeth from acting as normal, due to the intervention of IoM. But the AMF will also interact with an incorporeal creature as normal, because its interactions with incorporealness have absolutely nothing to do with where that incorporealness came from.

Is this a case of the RAW being kind of stupid? Maybe, but we're dealing with so many pieces of bad game design that it doesn't matter. You don't get to combine your mutually incompatible fiat-all-mundane and fiat-all-magic abilities. Sorry.


Interpretations (1) and (3) seem more natural than (2) to me, because (2) is halfway between (1) and (3).

Natural or not, (3) is not a RAW-supported interpretation because the "wink-out clause" has to do with being incorporeal, not the spell you cast to become incorporeal. (In essence, it doesn't matter how you get cold immunity unless someone means to directly interact with the way you got cold immunity: otherwise, all cold immunity is identical.)

(1) could be argued, but it's really a question of what the phrase "your spell functions normally" really means.

[Hirax]

Arrows are already barbed. You can see the points coming off the sides of the arrowhead in the PHB picture. The picture of Krusk in the barbarian class section also pictures barbed arrows, which are hilariously strapped to Krusk's leg. Aside from all your other shenanigans, I'm curious how your invented AMF arrows work. edit: not just their use mechanics, but how you're making and pricing them.

[CTrees]

Serren Wood bow (BoED) is Ex ghost strike.

Wait, so with Initiate of Mystra (we're considering high-op), a single third level spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/windWall.htm) shuts down your build? Neat.

[Gavinfoxx]

Serren Wood Bow with the *force* enhancement. ;)

[Anthrowhale]

Perhaps you can direct me to the language in the feat that makes you a spell cast by yourself. If not then as I said the way in which the feat allows a spell to function normally with regards to antimagic fields is meaningless because you are not a spell.

The logic is incomprehensible to me. Maybe you can quote the relevant bits and explain?


...IoM potentially allows you to ignore the suppression of that effect's occurrence. That's what IoM does.

You present this as fact, but it does not say this explicitly in the IoM text, so the statement above is an _interpretation_ of the "spell functions normally" clause. You acknowledge below that there is at least one other interpretation of the mechanics of "spell functions normally", so you should understand that this is just an interpretation.

(chopping a bunch because it just restates the outcome of your interpretation)



(1) could be argued, but it's really a question of what the phrase "your spell functions normally" really means.

That is the crucial question.

IoM definitely allows overriding of casting restrictions in the AMF, as that's explicitly stated. It also says "spell functions normally". Maybe that means (3), "spell functions as if there is no AMF". There is no RAW basis to exclude this interpretation. Interpretations (1) and (3) have the virtue of being simpler than your interpretation of the mechanics.


Aside from all your other shenanigans, I'm curious how your invented AMF arrows work. edit: not just their use mechanics, but how you're making and pricing them.

Single use, use activated AMF arrows that trigger AMF centered on themself when they are in flight and lasting 110 minutes. The cost is 3300gp. Spendy but effective when hunting big game.


Wait, so with Initiate of Mystra (we're considering high-op), a single third level spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/windWall.htm) shuts down your build? Neat.

No, on several accounts. First, the reply was in reference to this build, not IoM builds. Second, ghost strike makes a weapon incorporeal or corporeal as the wielder prefers, and we can simply prefer that it be incorporeal when bypassing wind wall. Third, IoM has access to many other arrow enhancements under all interpretations of the "spell functions normally" clause. Fourth, the hypothesized AMF arrows associated with this build would blow through any spell-based defense: windwall, friendly fire, protection from arrows, etc...

[dextercorvia]

Single use, use activated AMF arrows that trigger AMF centered on themself when they are in flight and lasting 110 minutes. The cost is 3300gp. Spendy but effective when hunting big game.

In flight is not a valid trigger for use-activated. It isn't like contingency where you get to pick whatever trigger you want, it has to be used -- which it is when you launch it (in an AMF).

[olentu]

The logic is incomprehensible to me. Maybe you can quote the relevant bits and explain?

Actually the problem is that you have not quoted the relevant bits. You are making a claim that this particular instance differs from the norm and so you need to show that it is not the default case. If not then well it defaults back to the default case.

What part of the feat regardless of which interpretation of the antimagic field line protects you the character who is not a spell from the effects of the antimagic field. Or hey who cares about any tangential effect how about just the winking out one we are talking about.

Of course I suppose I should give consideration to your position. So I suppose if you can provide the relevant part of whatever spell you are supposedly casting that makes you the character who is not a spell immune to the effects of the antimagic field that would be fine too.

If you can not provide something that is making you the character who is not a spell immune to the effects of the antimagic field then well you are not. So the default interaction applies because your character is not a spell cast by yourself and as such the feat does not make you immune to the effects of an antimagic field. And please be specific in your quoted text.

[dextercorvia]

The spell works as normal. It makes you incorporeal in an AMF (which it couldn't otherwise do). Unfortunately for you, that has unintended consequences.

[gkathellar]

The logic is incomprehensible to me. Maybe you can quote the relevant bits and explain?

EDIT: Swordsage'd hard.

He's saying that an incorporeal creature, even if rendered incorporeal through a spell, is not itself a spell, and is therefore effected by Antimagic as normal due to IoM's exception only applying to spells.


You present this as fact, but it does not say this explicitly in the IoM text, so the statement above is an _interpretation_ of the "spell functions normally" clause.

It's the only sensible interpretation. Spells have effects, and those effects taking place is what "functions normally" constitutes. Now, you can argue that those effects don't persist in an AMF, which is what (1) is. But you can't argue that they don't take place at all, or else IoM does literally nothing.


You acknowledge below that there is at least one other interpretation of the mechanics of "spell functions normally", so you should understand that this is just an interpretation.

The presence of two reasonable explanations does not imply the validity of a third. You're arguing this based on your answer seeming more "natural," or "simple," but that's not how RAW works.


Maybe that means (3), "spell functions as if there is no AMF".

Emphasis mine. You need to understand that this is exactly what I've been arguing. The spell functions exactly as if there is no AMF. The effected creature, however, does not — which in most cases means nothing, but in the specific case of turning incorporeal does.

You need to separate what the spell does from the indirect consequences of what the spell does. There are multiple distinct factors at work here that effect each other in distinct ways, and whether their effects seem "natural" or "straightforward" has no bearing on how they actually play out by RAW.

As I've said, you cast Permeable Form exactly as normal, and it comes into effect exactly as normal, rendering you incorporeal. Once you are incorporeal, however, you behave as an incorporeal creature would — which has nothing to do with IoM's specific exemption for spells and their functions.

Casting the spell *enables* you to stop existing, but it does not *cause* you to stop existing. What *causes* you to stop existing is the interaction between being incorporeal and the AMF. Your being incorporeal does not take its source into account — the spell and the effect are obviously related, but in terms of their ongoing interactions with other effects they are mechanically distinct.

[Anthrowhale]

In flight is not a valid trigger for use-activated. It isn't like contingency where you get to pick whatever trigger you want, it has to be used -- which it is when you launch it (in an AMF).

Maybe an arrow is used when it stabs somethings, implying that it activates on impact even if you use it in your fist as an improvised dagger. Maybe an arrow is used when it is drawn, meaning that it activates before launching. Maybe an arrow is used when it is launched form a bow, as your prefer. Maybe an arrow is used when it is in flight, implying that telekinesis works on it or it activates when you drop it from a height. These are all plausibly valid meanings of "use". As long as we are hypothesizing custom items, we might as well hypothesize which version of "use" is used.


The spell works as normal. It makes you incorporeal in an AMF (which it couldn't otherwise do).



He's saying that an incorporeal creature, even if rendered incorporeal through a spell, is not itself a spell, and is therefore effected by Antimagic as normal due to IoM's exception only applying to spells.


Ok, I think these make sense. Thank you.

My understanding is as follows:

For this build, a use-activated AMF causes the character to disappear, which causes the AMF to no longer exist, which causes the character to reappear, which causes the AMF to reappear, which... This loop can be broken one of several ways within the rules:
(a) The character disappears for the duration of the AMF.
(b) The character doesn't effectively disappear, because every disappearance is instantaneously canceled by a reappearance.
(c) An inbetween state, something like a hyperfast blink. The outcome would be something like 'slow': 1/2 normal movement and either move or standard action each turn.
(d) Character disappears forever. The duration of AMF is dependent on time relative to the character, and no time happens when you don't exist.

Dead magic isn't covered in Rules Compendium. However, the Faerun definition implies equivalence to AM-Field with irrelevant exceptions.

And an IoM based permeable form in an AMF would have the same effect, unless you use the (nonstandard?) "spells are normally suppressed" interpretation of IoM, in which case either the permeable form is suppressed or (a)-(d), with unclear precedence.

[gkathellar]

I'd say A) is the only one of those options that seems to be supported, but it's really a judgement/house-ruling call. Mixing AMF and incorporealness is basically a bad idea, and giving them an identical source is like dividing by zero.

In any case, I'd say this is a good option for explaining a "sealed away" BBEG — he got turned incorporeal in a dead magic zone (or he's always incorporeal and the area around him got dead magic-ed), and his minions are trying to remove the zone.