Looking for PF build advice

[Roto]

So I'm working on a PF Rogue5/Shadowdancer2 and a Cleric. Both starting at level 7.

For the Rogue, I intend to focus more on ranged attacking, but I'm wondering if I should take weapon finesse just in case I get into melee somehow. Or should I grab another ranged feat. What I have right now is: Improved Initiative, Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Combat Reflexes, and Mobility. Right now my str modifier is -1 which makes melee combat without finesse a bad idea. So should I grab it just in case, or should I get another ranged feat? Or something else entirely?

As for the Cleric. I want to know how useful the Crusader archetype is. I'm setting it up as a Cleric of Sarenrae. If I go Crusader, I'd pick Fire as my domain, but do the pros of extra combat and armor feats outweigh the cons of only having one domain and 1 fewer spell per level per day? If not, what other Cleric archetypes would you recommend to me?

[grarrrg]

So I'm working on a PF Rogue5/Shadowdancer2 and a Cleric. Both starting at level 7.

For the Rogue, I intend to focus more on ranged attacking, but I'm wondering if I should take weapon finesse just in case I get into melee somehow.....

As for the Cleric. I want to know how useful the Crusader archetype is....If not, what other Cleric archetypes would you recommend to me?

Definately get Weapon Finesse (it can be picked up as a Rogue Talent).

As for Cleric/Crusader, I wouldn't recommned different Archetype, I would recommend a different CLASS.
Inquisitor (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/inquisitor), it's roughly halfway between Paladin and Cleric, and is _the_ most versatile base class.
At level 8 when you can have 2 judgement effects running is when you really get rolling.
Granted you have even LESS casting then a Crusader, but you were considering Crusader to begin with so....

[Roto]

Perhaps I should have elaborated on why I want a Cleric. I want to be able to heal. Being an inquisitor wouldn't really allow me to do that.

[grarrrg]

Perhaps I should have elaborated on why I want a Cleric. I want to be able to heal. Being an inquisitor wouldn't really allow me to do that.

In that case, Oracle (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/oracle), Life (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/oracle/mysteries/paizo---oracle-mysteries/life) Mystery.
You start with ALL Cure spells already on your Known list, so no worries there.
Level 7 gets you 3 Revelations, Channeling is a must. For your other 2 pick your favorites from Life Link, Safe Curing, and Spirit Boost.

I recommend Life Link and then taking 4 levels of Holy Vindicator, you lose a Caster level, but gain a Bab, Heavy Armor Prof., all cure spells effect YOU as if "empowered" (+50%), and a Stigmata Bonus (which can apply to a variety of things, including Caster Level, giving you a net +1 CL for spell effects). (See build discussion here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=217280))

Life Link is very useful for a healer type, as it lets you "heal" without needing Touch Range.

[Curious]

Don't forget, you don't actually need the heal spells as long as you have Glorious Heat.

[Dr.Orpheus]

A human paladin with a 20 Cha can resurrect people with ultimate mercy if you are level 3 and don't use traits for a bonus feat. How's that for a healer.

[Roto]

A human paladin with a 20 Cha can resurrect people with ultimate mercy if you are level 3 and don't use traits for a bonus feat. How's that for a healer.

How does that work?

[Khantin]

A human paladin with a 20 Cha can resurrect people with ultimate mercy if you are level 3 and don't use traits for a bonus feat. How's that for a healer.

You'd have to spend 2 feats on extra lay on hands, but yea. Also the resurrect is free if you opt to gain a negative level for 24 hours.

[Khantin]

How does that work?

this feat, ultimate mercy (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/ultimate-mercy) lets you spend 10 uses of lay on hands to cast resurrect. In order to get 10 uses of lay on hands you need to grab 2xextra LoH feats and the 2 mercy feats.
1 feat for human
1 for first
1 for trading your 2 traits in (I've never heard of this before tbh)
1 for 3rd level

Actually the earliest you can do it is level 5, because you need the mercy class feature gained at level 3 before you can take the pre requisite for ultimate mercy.

[Roto]

this feat, ultimate mercy (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/ultimate-mercy) lets you spend 10 uses of lay on hands to cast resurrect. In order to get 10 uses of lay on hands you need to grab 2xextra LoH feats and the 2 mercy feats.
1 feat for human
1 for first
1 for trading your 2 traits in (I've never heard of this before tbh)
1 for 3rd level

Actually the earliest you can do it is level 5, because you need the mercy class feature gained at level 3 before you can take the pre requisite for ultimate mercy.

While I admit that it VERY impressive... It doesn't really go with the flavor I'm trying to make.

[DrDeth]

I want to point out that you may be going Shadowdancer for the wrong reasons- note that Stealth according to the current PF RAW- does NOT make your foe lose his Dex. Thus HiPS does NOT grant you Sneak attack, unless of course you use it to maneuver around to a flanking position.

Glorious Heat??

[SamBurke]

I want to point out that you may be going Shadowdancer for the wrong reasons- note that Stealth according to the current PF RAW- does NOT make your foe lose his Dex. Thus HiPS does NOT grant you Sneak attack, unless of course you use it to maneuver around to a flanking position.

Glorious Heat??

Glorious Heat is one of the more common Cleric trolls; if you cast a spell with the "[Fire]" Descriptor, you heal a person within 30' for half your class level. Use with Spark, and you now have infinite healing. Note: this is a AP-specific feat, and some GMs might not let you take it. It has also been fixed in Society errata, but not in official PFSRD.com errata.

[Real Sorceror]

As for Rogue, I've been wanting to see someone grab a small-sized Familiar at lvl 10 (via the advanced talents in UC) and then use that fox/goat/pig to flank and go to town on the sneak attacking. Of course, if you're doing it for the familiar its probably faster to go Wiz 3/Rogue 3/Arcane Trickster 1 since thats a straight 7 lvl build.

[CTrees]

I want to point out that you may be going Shadowdancer for the wrong reasons- note that Stealth according to the current PF RAW- does NOT make your foe lose his Dex. Thus HiPS does NOT grant you Sneak attack, unless of course you use it to maneuver around to a flanking position.

I always thought of this as being hidden from an enemy means they lose their Dex bonus to AC with respect to attacks from you (similar to how they are with Invisibility (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/conditions#TOC-Invisible), which allows for sneak attack. Thus, attack -> move/stealth via HiPS -> attack -> repeat. However... I can't actually locate any text which says anything to that effect on the SRD. :smallfrown: As such... I don't know if it actually works or not in PF, RAW.


Glorious Heat??

Glorious Heat! (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/conditions#TOC-Invisible)
Combine with Spark for unlimited healing. Note that the Pathfinder Society errata makes this combo stop working, but that errata is only applicable to Pathfinder Society play. If anyone tries to say otherwise, bite him.

[DrDeth]

Well, take a look at this Blog where Paizo is suggesting rewriting stealth. It pretty much makes clear that under the current RAW, Stealth doesn’t make your foe lose his DEX.

http://paizo.com/paizo/blog/v5748dyo5lcml&page=7#306

Nor does hidden. Only invisible does under the current RAW. It’s one of those subtle things where PF differs from 3.5 but it’s not written out clearly in the rules.

Yeah, not only would my DM not allow a 0 level spell giving unlimited healing, but even my fellow players would ridicule me for trying it.

[CTrees]

Well, take a look at this Blog where Paizo is suggesting rewriting stealth. It pretty much makes clear that under the current RAW, Stealth doesn’t make your foe lose his DEX.

http://paizo.com/paizo/blog/v5748dyo5lcml&page=7#306

Nor does hidden. Only invisible does under the current RAW. It’s one of those subtle things where PF differs from 3.5 but it’s not written out clearly in the rules.

Yeah... which is what I was finding (or rather, not finding) while going through the rules. Silly, really, because take the following:

Alice is attacking Bob, and Cindy is attacking Dave. Alice and Cindy are both dwarven rogue/shadowdancers, and are mechanically identical. Bob and Dave are both fighters, and are also mechanically identical to each other (neither has Blind-Fight). They're all outside, at night. On the fourth round of combat, Alice drinks a potion of invisibility (regular, so it's broken as soon as she attacks), then takes a move action, attempting but failing a stealth check. Bob knows which square she's in, even if he can't exactly see her. Cindy does nothing to turn invisible, but takes a move action, also attempting a HiPS-enabled stealth check. Cindy succeeds, and not only can Dave not see her, he doesn't even have any idea what square she's in. Assuming both Alice and Cindy are in range to make sneak attacks, on their next round, Alice can make a sneak attack, but Cindy cannot.

Does it make sense that Dave, being attacked from an unknown direction, by a foe he cannot see, is better able to defend himself than Bob, who at least knows from which direction the attack is coming?

[DrDeth]

Right, excellent point. Likely why Paizo has that blog with those well needed potential rule changes. However, this does make HiPS more or less “invisible at will” and thus very powerful.

[CTrees]

The problem, really, is HiPS, but even with that, it's not *quite* "at-will invisibility." For a level seven character (per OP), a reasonable stealth bonus would be... Let's say Halfling (+4 size) with 20 Dex (+5), full ranks as a class skill (+10), with Shadow armor (+5), for a +24 check. Looking at a couple random-but-common CR7 enemies, say... a Huge Fire Elemental, a Young Brass Dragon, and a Drider (chosen randomly). These all have Perception checks of +13 or +14, meaning... it's actually really, really hard to beat that stealth check without even optimization, just somewhat competent building.

You know what, you're right. As long as there's some form of shadow, HiPS pretty much is at will invisibility if it's run in a more logical manner. Hrm. Don't know what to do about this, to make it reasonable.

[Talentless]

The problem, really, is HiPS, but even with that, it's not *quite* "at-will invisibility." For a level seven character (per OP), a reasonable stealth bonus would be... Let's say Halfling (+4 size) with 20 Dex (+5), full ranks as a class skill (+10), with Shadow armor (+5), for a +24 check. Looking at a couple random-but-common CR7 enemies, say... a Huge Fire Elemental, a Young Brass Dragon, and a Drider (chosen randomly). These all have Perception checks of +13 or +14, meaning... it's actually really, really hard to beat that stealth check without even optimization, just somewhat competent building.

You know what, you're right. As long as there's some form of shadow, HiPS pretty much is at will invisibility if it's run in a more logical manner. Hrm. Don't know what to do about this, to make it reasonable.

Meh, i'd honestly not include the halfling racial bonus in a "reasonable" stealth bonus. If they've gone halfling, they likely plan on optimizing the hell out of it, which shouldn't be the basis for which such things are judged.

Without the +4 from hafling, but lets say +2 from a feat, the bonus is +22. In which case those perception checks you mentioned have a better than 50% chance of success, which doesn't make the ability to sneak attack off of HiPS all that unreasonable IMO

/edit, whoops, blanked about the players d20 roll for a bit there. Yeah, some numbers would need to be changed around a bit, or a little something more would need to be done to bring it into reasonable

[Roto]

For the rogue, which is better for ranged.. A light crossbow or a shortbow?

[Talentless]

For the rogue, which is better for ranged.. A light crossbow or a shortbow?

Positive strength bonus, composite short bow.
Negative or none in strength bonus, crossbow

[Blisstake]

Positive strength bonus, composite short bow.
Negative or none in strength bonus, crossbow

I might consider the bow even with no strength modifier. You don't need a feat to reload quickly, so you could get off multiple sneak attacks once your BAB is over 5, or if you take rapid shot.