[PF] Help me build a Sorceror or "Monk"

[Krazzman]

Hello fellow playgrounders

I stumbled unto a little problem.
Our group played 2 Sessions of our last campaign when the bloody things began...
One of our players went into some sort of hiding it seems, the other one can't on the playing days anymore and the third person is somehow stuck with being a douche, so campaign broke apart and we are going to start over soon.

So again I need a character, but don't really know how to build the thing I have in mind.

Things I assume:
Point buy 25, NO Traits, NO Flaws, (my own rule: no real dump stat)
Books allowed: Core Rulebook, Ultimate Magic, Ultimate Combat, Advanced Players Guide.

Things I'm unsure of so far:
Setting, have in mind when giving advice on Races.
Wealth and Alignment Restrictions (so stay minimalistic).

So that are the ground terms you would need.

I've got 2 concepts so far that I would probably find fun.

#1 "Monk"

A charismatic trustworthy able melee/gish. Never gonna lie, not dependent on a weapon (see wealth) and a good observer.

TL;DR: Dragon Ball-esce/ Street fighter-esce (Energy Attacks, Fighting in melee, self buffs)

#2 Sorceror
A bit hyperactive character that tends to like to set things(most likely enemies) ablaze (little bit weird [insane] but not disturbingly much). His favourite element is lightning. He likes to be free, but has a good soul and wants to protect the ones he cares for with all he got.

TL;DR Sorcerer(?) with Lightning Elemental Spells and other goodies.


Hope you can help me, especially for the #2 since i've never played a caster properly...

[missmvicious]

What's your starting level?

If you're starting low, then I can help, a little. I've played some Sorcerers. I'm just going to say though... they're not all they're cracked up to be. We house-ruled them as NPC casters after a few attempts to make a fun, easy-to-play Sorcerer. You might be better off playing a Wizard re-fluffed as a Sorcerer and move on. But that's not what you were asking, so here we go.

Sorcerer's are fine with dump stats, really. Don't be afraid to pour all your points into CHA and DEX, but if you want to spread it around here's the order in which I tend to prioritize points:
CHA, DEX, INT, WIS, CON, STR.

You could swap out DEX for INT to get those extra skill points, since a lot of good Skills are CHA based, but don't count on your Sorcerer to be a Skill Monkey.

If you're living lean, don't take a familiar. It chews up 100 pieces of your starting GP, and since starting GP for a Sorcerer is 3d4x10, you'd be up the creek on a great roll (AVG = 75 GP, MAX GP = 120 GP) and in debt on anything less. Plus, at lower levels, they die easily and can cost you precious XP if they do.

As for races, consider something with a CHA bonus like Chaos Gnome, Child of Nature, or almost any member of the Fey. However, if you want to keep it Core, try Human, since you'll get the bonus feat. Feats are helpful for any class.

Since you want to play a battle Sorcerer, think about feats like Combat Casting and Empower Spell. Spell Penetration may be good (since you're specializing in one kind of element) so you can punch through Spell Resistance. Just remember though, there's a decent list of enemies who are completely immune to lightning. Our party recently encountered two Babau who had this. You'll have to get creative with your lightning if you want to hurt something like that. Lightning Reflexes would be amusing, fluff-wise, but not even remotely optimized. If, for some weird reason, you have feats to spare, consider Magical Aptitude. An overly specialized caster will find themselves in need of an Element or School of Magic often enough to make it worthwhile to have a Scroll, Wand, Ring, etc that can fill a gap in your spell selection. Thanks to your CHA, UMD will already be buffed, but ironically it's not a class skill. Every little boost will help, because you don't want a wand to fizzle mid-combat just because you couldn't roll a decent UMD.

For your spell list, that's easy. Just pick Lightning spells and call it a day, but you won't have many lightning options at L1. I think all you'll get from PHB is Shocking Grasp, so you'll need to dig deep into the other books for some decent low-level spells. I don't have Ultimate Magic, so I can't help you there.

Spell Compendium, pgs 261-262 should have what you need:
L-0: Electric Jolt
L-1: Orb of Electricity, Lesser; Thunderhead

And there were some other ones in there that, fluff-wise would compliment a lighting caster well, Like Sonic Snap, Benign Transposition, Targeting Ray, Shock & Awe, Guiding Light, Light of Lunia, Luminous Gaze, so on.

As for skills:
Your class skills are Bluff, Concentration, Craft, Know: Arcana, Profession, and Spellcraft.

For the love of Boccob, put ranks in Concentration. You'll need it it if you want to create a good battle caster. Forget Craft and Profession... you're built to kick in doors, not repair them. Put your leftover points into Bluff because at level 2, you'll be able to get +5 ranks in there and get Synergy bonuses out the wazoo, plus it's always handy to have a Diplomancer of some kind in the group, especially since you can't win every battle with electricity spells. At some point, please pour your heart and soul into Spellcraft and UMD... I don't care if UMD is cross-class. As you build up some cash, you will want to arm yourself with magic items, and many of these will require Spellcraft checks to even understand and UMD checks to use even if you understand them.

That's all I've got for now. It would really help if I knew the starting level.

[ericgrau]

Uh, what level is it?

Melee needs wealth badly, including monks. I'd go sorcerer. A high level gish might be passable but you can't even get all the good buffs from 1 casting class. And they all scale much slower than magic items, even before your reduced caster level. But if you must do it then dragon disciple (melee-class 4/ sorcerer 2 / DD X) might work.

Sorcerers are all about spell selection. If you google "spell selection site:www.giantitp.com", or similar (without quotations) you can get some good spell ideas. However a common mistake is to get all 20 good spells when you can only cast 4 in a fight. Use your high level spells on good spells and your low level ones on hour/level buffs like false life and other good stuff that won't eat an in-combat action like invisibility, feather fall, alarm (if your party frequently sets up camp in dangerous areas), mount or phantom steed (if your party travels a lot), etc. But still pick things you can use frequently; comprehend languages and such belong on 25 gp scrolls since you'll rarely use them.

[Stone Heart]

Since your Sorcerer idea would favor lightning, definitely go with the Stormborn bloodline. At early levels its not the greatest, giving your melee weapons shock isn't great for a caster, but you do get better electric (and sonic) spells. It also allows you to use spells that create storms and fog and still be able to see at 9th level, and at 15th you can become a lightning bolt.

If you are willing to take the drawbacks (less spells known and -2 to will) you could go crossblooded and also take elemental bloodline so that you can replace all of your spells energies types with electricity. (Fireball? No no, Lightning Ball)

It also allows you to pick and choose the bloodline abilities, so if you don't like stormborns shock weapon ability, you can instead take Elementals Ray attack.

You can also offset the penalties of being crossblooded by being a human. Use the bonus feat for Iron Will, and instead of 1hp or skill point each level take an extra spell. Its not a perfect trade off, but it helps.

[ericgrau]

I don't understand why cross-blooded gets mentioned so often. You lose your one and only highest level spell (on top of all other levels), effectively putting your casting a level behind. Even with bloodline damage boosts your damage goes down. Human does not give bonus spells known for your highest level, only for lower levels.

I also wouldn't pick all spells of the same type on any sorcerer. Even a focused blaster shouldn't get all damage spells. It's redundant. Yeah storms, fogs and so on provide non-damage options. Google the list I mentioned for ideas.

[jaybird]

Regarding the Monk idea - have you considered the Synthesist archetype for Summoner, the Magus, or the Psychic Warrior? All three are excellent Gishes, particularly the Synthesist with a Paladin 2 dip.

[Krazzman]

Wow, thats some nice feedback already.
Level could be from 1 to 8 I think, but we rarely start higher. (Highest start I played with him was level 4 for a one-shot)

@ missmvicious:

You seem to mix a bit up about Pathfinder and DnD 3.5 Concentration is no longer a Skill, it's a caster level check.
Humans get a free +2 to any one stat and can get 1 spell of one level lower as the highest I can cast. That was a "no-brainer" for me.

@ Stone Heart:

The problem I've got is my sorcerers were only dnd 3.5 and they were just blasters and rarely reached higher than level 3. My highest arcane caster was a level 5 evoc wizard, followed by a level 3 wu jen. But the Stormborn bloodline seems quite cool. Even the enchant weapon with shock...you could call him crossbow-zeus now :D
Additionally Elemental only gives me Air, Fire, Earth and Water.

@ jaybird:
directly spoken: no, since I've got some dislike about the summoner (I think the eidolon system is a bit broken), Magus is out because I played one in the last campaign and the psychic warrior is out because of book selection.

@ ericgrau:

thanks but I've not found anything about a spell list particular to what i want to achieve.

So, assuming a level 1 start:

Level 1 Human Stormborn Sorcerer.
STR 10 (0)
DEX 14 (5)
CON 14 (5)
INT 14 (5)
WIS 10 (0)
CHA 18 (10) (+2 human bonus)

Leaving me with:
+2 ranged combat
+0 melee
8 HP & 5 Skillpoints/level (skilling fly and kn nature 1/2 level) (bluff, UMD, kn arc, Spellcraft)
+2 Fortitude
+2 Relfex
+2 Will

Spells Known: 5 Cantrips, 2 level 1 spells.
Feats: Imp Ini, Combat Casting (?)

The point about 8 HP is...would Toughness be a viable option, since I don't want to give the bonus spells up for 1hp/level.

So, could you give me advice on Feats? Metamagic (if it is possible please with explanation)? Other worthwhile? Should I use a throwing weapon? A crossbow? Should I spend feats on archery? Spells I should take?

Hope you reply soon.

[ericgrau]

Pathfinder boosted toughness a great deal so it's a great choice for squishy casters. On sorcs I typically start with spell focus(es). Schools with saves tend to be conjuration and enchantment. Illusion, evocation and transmutation as well to a lesser extent. Plan your future spells, check their schools and see which have saves and how much the save matters (do they always get a save, for all of the effect or only part of the effect, etc.). Once I'm high enough level I get metamagic like empower. Imp Ini and Combat Casting are so-so, more like secondary options after you've already got greater spell focus on your favorite school.

Ability scores look good, though on int vs wis I'd tend to favor saves over skills. You could also dump str to get a 14 and a 12 if you wanted.

You shouldn't blow significant resources on secondary options like archery. A crossbow is probably your highest damage there. Sleep is perhaps the best spell at level 1. I've seen arguments for color spray because it's faster but I don't think squishy casters should get so close. OTOH there aren't many other good options so you could get both or you could plan for the future with a spell like feather fall, grease, mage armor, magic missile, shocking grasp, silent image, etc., but while passable none of these are very good at level 1.

If you don't like to decide yourself then: int 12, wis 12, str 11, dagger, light crossbow, case of 10 bolts, backpack, bedroll, waterskin, flint and steel, X trail rations (as needed for travel, str allowing), sleep, mage armor, toughness, spell focus (evocation?). Not necessarily the best or even what I'd do every time, but it's an example. Then if you have an electricity bloodline you'd get shocking grasp + combat casting for level 3 now that its damage is 3d6 and you have the safety of mage armor + toughness + combat casting.

[Stone Heart]

@ Stone Heart:

The problem I've got is my sorcerers were only dnd 3.5 and they were just blasters and rarely reached higher than level 3. My highest arcane caster was a level 5 evoc wizard, followed by a level 3 wu jen. But the Stormborn bloodline seems quite cool. Even the enchant weapon with shock...you could call him crossbow-zeus now :D
Additionally Elemental only gives me Air, Fire, Earth and Water.


:smallconfused:
But Electricity is the energy type that comes from the Air bloodline.


Also to ericgrau, for one thing being one spell level behind is not that big of a deal to a lot of people. Another its not always matter of damage output, as well. Flavor and fluff often win out over crunch, and he was not asking for super optimized, just lightning themed sorcerer.

[ericgrau]

@ ericgrau:

thanks but I've not found anything about a spell list particular to what i want to achieve.
Good electricity/storm spells by level:
0: spark, maybe jolt
1: obscuring mist*, alter winds*, ~feather fall*, shocking grasp***
2: fog cloud*
3: sleet storm, lightning bolt
4: solid fog, ball lightning
5: lightning arc (UM), wall of sound
6: chain lightning
levitate*/fly*/overland flight are semi-thematic too, though you only need 1.
stinking cloud/cloudkill are likewise a loose fit to the theme and are decent

unrelated spells too good to pass up:
0: detect magic
1: sleep**, mage armor*
2: false life*, flaming sphere** (especially if you have spell focus(evocation))
3: haste
4: maybe black tentacles to cluster for damage spells
5: wall of force

*don't use at low levels
**don't use at high levels
***moderate levels only

[Krazzman]

Nice, thanks.

That are some great spells.

So far I would put Str down to 8 to raise wis to 12.

If Air can be splitted to Electricity and Sonic then I would consider Crossblooded. But the point is, do I get both bonuses (changing elements to electric and +1 to the dc?). If an Air spell has both electricity damage and sonic damage, do i get +2 on the save dc?
And regarding the Elemental Bloodline:
Can I change Spells with the Force Descriptor? I.e. Making a Mage Armor an Shock Armor?

So far the only abilities for which I would take Elemental Bloodline are the Bolt Special, the Arcana and the spells. While I like nearly all (except the shock weapon ability) from the storm born bloodline.

If taking Crossblooded:
Feats:
H:Toughness
1: Iron Will
3: Combat Casting.

If not:
H: Toughness
1: Focus
3: Combat Casting

Now the problem is I somehow can't find good spells (except Cloudkill) where the +1 Save DC is that viable, maybe I'm just searching the wrong way, but evocation seems solid for the damage spells.

Any further recommendations?

[Stone Heart]

I am not sure about getting a +1 for both types, but I also am not immediately aware of any spells that have both. However, I am fairly certain that you can change the element type to electric to get a +1 dc on it, because it changes the spell damage type and type, and that means the spell is then now an electric one.

I also am unsure about the force one, sorry. I'm not the most well versed with the rules, I usually am more interested in fluff.

[Krazzman]

A question came to my mind just now...

if I take Crossblooded...would it mean that I learn my first 2nd Level spell when a wizard gets his 3rd Level Spells and so on?

If yes, then I know I'm going single bloodline.

[DrDeth]

Any idea what the other players are running?

I suggest Combat casting if you go Sorc, if your Sorc gets backed into a corner, you’re a dead man without it.

Synthesist is broken beyond repair- not broken as super powerful, just so badly written it seems to have a record for the most posts over at Paizo.

[Krazzman]

For the thing, what the others will take...that could be a bit hard since I only know so far that we maybe start one with my GF, me and the DM, other players are uncertain since one in the last campaign has become a douche, one went into hiding and the other seems to be only busy on the weekends...

But my GF would like to play either a Barbarian (she just likes them for their rage :D) or a Ranger (going to kill things with just one arrow).

And I for my part want to play a Thunder-themed Sorcerer.

[Stone Heart]

A question came to my mind just now...

if I take Crossblooded...would it mean that I learn my first 2nd Level spell when a wizard gets his 3rd Level Spells and so on?

If yes, then I know I'm going single bloodline.

Yeah, at level 5 you would get a 2nd level spell, while at level 5 wizards get a 3rd level spell. It is a big drawback of the crossblooded.