[DnD 3.5] Irresistible Dance vs. a Bard with Perform(Dance)

[theonesin]

Will the Bard be affected?

[Geigan]

By RAW? No. But it'd be a pretty cool houserule to allow a character with ranks in perform(dance) to make a saving throw with perform (dance) instead of getting no save. I'd say a typical save DC for a spell of that level?

[gbprime]

The spell effect makes it impossible for the subject to do anything other than caper and prance in place.
So how do you figure a Bard isn't affected by this? Sure, they might be GOOD at capering and prancing, but that's all the spell allows them to do while affected by it.

[theonesin]

I'm not the one who thought this. It was the DM asking about it. He thought that since a bard's dancing is "special", it might not work.

I never thought the Bard would have any specific resistance to it. But the DM thought that "if the Bard's already dancing with bardic music, would he be affected by the spell?".

[Geigan]

I'm not the one who thought this. It was the DM asking about it. He thought that since a bard's dancing is "special", it might not work.

Not special enough I'm afraid. Unless you can convince your DM to go for a houserule.

[Psyren]

The RAW is clear - you can't do anything else, which includes your Bardic Music or other Perform uses.

As for RAI, I find this clause interesting:


...complete with foot shuffling and tapping.

This says to me that you can't choose the type of dance you're doing anyway, even if you were to rule that someone good at dancing should be able to use their dance to do other things. For instance, if you're a master of waltzing, there isn't a whole lot of tapdancing in that; but the spell explicitly makes you tap, so just because you're good at dancing doesn't mean the dance the spell forces you to do is in any way related to the dancing you're good at.

And even if it is, there is no mention made of rhythm or meter; I interpret it as a series of spastic jerks more than anything else.

[Geigan]

And even if it is, there is no mention made of rhythm or meter; I interpret it as a series of spastic jerks more than anything else.
My mental image of how this spell looks in practice just got a lot creepier looking. More evil puppetmasterish forcing your body to dance to their whims, rather than the lighthearted thing I was imagining. I suppose whether the houserule about outdancing the spell works for you depends on how you're picturing it.

[Toliudar]

Regardless of RAW, I find the idea of a bard being able to continue with bardic performance actions, or perhaps even spells with somatic only components, while under the effect of this spelll...irresistible.

[CTrees]

I always interpretted it as something halfway between standing seizure and St. Vitus' Dance. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sydenham's_chorea) Spastic, uncontrolled, unpleasant, but (via magic) allowing the victims to at least remain standing.

[Geigan]

Regardless of RAW, I find the idea of a bard being able to continue with bardic performance actions, or perhaps even spells with somatic only components, while under the effect of this spelll...irresistible.

:smallcool:
YEEEEEEEEAAAAAAHH!!

[Doug Lampert]

Regardless of RAW, I find the idea of a bard being able to continue with bardic performance actions, or perhaps even spells with somatic only components, while under the effect of this spelll...irresistible.

Yep, I'd definitely let him continue an ongoing performance, I don't CARE what RAW says, it's just too cool, and continuing the performance doesn't require any action but dancing.

I'd be a lot more reluctant to let him do anything else, and I'll point out that by the SRD:

Every bard spell has a verbal componentSo there's no such thing as a bard somatic only spell.

[theonesin]

Regardless of RAW, I find the idea of a bard being able to continue with bardic performance actions, or perhaps even spells with somatic only components, while under the effect of this spelll...irresistible.

I can't tell, but are you agreeing or disagreeing that Bards should be immune to Irresistible Dance?

Yes, I'm still arguing with the DM over if it works like this or not. I even showed him this thread, but he's not convinced.

[Psyren]

I can't tell, but are you agreeing or disagreeing that Bards should be immune to Irresistible Dance?

Yes, I'm still arguing with the DM over if it works like this or not. I even showed him this thread, but he's not convinced.

Ask him flat out if he plans to houserule it or not, because RAW it affects Bards, Dervishes, Battledancers etc. the same way it affects everybody else.

[CTrees]

Ask him flat out if he plans to houserule it or not, because RAW it affects Bards, Dervishes, Battledancers etc. the same way it affects everybody else.

Seconded. It will end the matter, at least.

That said, while I agree on the RAW, if it came up at my table, I'd argue that it's awesome enough, having bards/dervish/other perform: dance users be unaffected that it should be houseruled.

[Mr. Zolrane]

Here's an expansion upon the ideas presented:

When a bard (or anyone else who can dance as a matter of their class) currently in the process of dancing is the target of an Irresistible Dance spell successfully saves he may, as an immediate action, initiate an impromptu dance-off, making opposed Perform (Dance) checks with the caster. If the bard wins said check, the caster is affected by the spell instead, receiving the usual chance to save of course.

[Psyren]

Here's an expansion upon the ideas presented:

When a bard (or anyone else who can dance as a matter of their class) currently in the process of dancing is the target of an Irresistible Dance spell successfully saves he may, as an immediate action, initiate an impromptu dance-off, making opposed Perform (Dance) checks with the caster. If the bard wins said check, the caster is affected by the spell instead, receiving the usual chance to save of course.

Er... you do realize it has no saving throw, right? That's why it's so good despite being a mind-affecting compulsion.

[Geigan]

Here's an expansion upon the ideas presented:

When a bard (or anyone else who can dance as a matter of their class) currently in the process of dancing is the target of an Irresistible Dance spell successfully saves he may, as an immediate action, initiate an impromptu dance-off, making opposed Perform (Dance) checks with the caster. If the bard wins said check, the caster is affected by the spell instead, receiving the usual chance to save of course.
Er... you do realize it has no saving throw, right? That's why it's so good despite being a mind-affecting compulsion.

Maybe he means the Perform(Dance) save I suggested?:smallbiggrin:

[Mr. Zolrane]

Er... you do realize it has no saving throw, right? That's why it's so good despite being a mind-affecting compulsion.

It has a partial save, at least in Pathfinder. *checks 3.5 SRD* Yeah, okay, no save in 3.5... ouch... yeah, the Perform (Dance) save looks pretty nice for something other than the inherent humor of declaring yourself Lord of the Dance and bouncing an enemy's spell back at him.

[Heliomance]

I did hear of a character in a light hearted campaign who made a Perform (mosh) check to be able to attack under the effect of Otto's Dance

[Mr. Zolrane]

I did hear of a character in a light hearted campaign who made a Perform (mosh) check to be able to attack under the effect of Otto's Dance

That is marvelous.

[Namfuak]

I did hear of a character in a light hearted campaign who made a Perform (mosh) check to be able to attack under the effect of Otto's Dance

And now I know what my next bard is going to look like and act like. Thanks!

[Psyren]

It has a partial save, at least in Pathfinder. *checks 3.5 SRD* Yeah, okay, no save in 3.5... ouch... yeah, the Perform (Dance) save looks pretty nice for something other than the inherent humor of declaring yourself Lord of the Dance and bouncing an enemy's spell back at him.

I know it's Will Partial in PF, but this thread is explicitly about the 3.5 version.

PF nerfed it because it's harder to become totally immune to mind-affecting in that game (Mind Blank won't necessarily protect you from this, for instance.)

[Coidzor]

This says to me that you can't choose the type of dance you're doing anyway, even if you were to rule that someone good at dancing should be able to use their dance to do other things. For instance, if you're a master of waltzing, there isn't a whole lot of tapdancing in that; but the spell explicitly makes you tap, so just because you're good at dancing doesn't mean the dance the spell forces you to do is in any way related to the dancing you're good at.

Type of dancing you're good at? :smallconfused: What are you talking about. All bards that are good at waltzes are also good at tap and samba and mambo and jazz and modern and traditional tribal dances of cultures they've never even heard of and blues and swing and....

[Cirrylius]

I did hear of a character in a light hearted campaign who made a Perform (mosh) check to be able to attack under the effect of Otto's Dance

"LET THE BODIES HIT THE FLOOR, LET THE BODIES HIT THE FLOOR!"

[desmond1323]

Heh, I really like the idea of giving anyone with Perform (Dance) a check to resist the spell...it's a nice bit of fluff that won't really come up too often. Just treat the spell like it has a save, only instead of a Will save, it's a Perform (Dance) check. Alternatively, I also kind of like Mr. Zolrane's counterspell style check too...

[Psyren]

Type of dancing you're good at? :smallconfused: What are you talking about. All bards that are good at waltzes are also good at tap and samba and mambo and jazz and modern and traditional tribal dances of cultures they've never even heard of and blues and swing and....

Perhaps, but my point still stands; the spell specifies how you dance, not you. And the fact that the spell imposes so many penalties on you, when regular bardic dancing does not, is a pretty clear implication that you're not in control of your movements.