Protecting against Wish

[kardar233]

So, I'm working on a protection system for a very valuable set of items (my Clone and the character sheet that gives me my power) and I wondered if you guys could help me out with proofing it.

So here's the plan:

Drawing heavily from the Dream of Metal, I've built 163 Warforged followers. I take 162 of them and Miracle (or Wish) for a Microcosm, making a dream plane from the minds of my followers. I Dream Walk in with my character sheet, build a Clone trap and a Gentle Repose trap in some place in the dreamscape, and have my followers dream up the most powerful beings they can imagine to defend them.

Then, I take a ton of Quintessence, put them all into a block of it, encase the block in a 60-foot cage of Riverine, put a Disjunction trap on it and then cover it all in an Antimagic Field. I then shoot the whole thing out into a supermassive black hole. The Riverine shouldn't be affected by gravity, and the Warforged are outside of the time stream.

With the final follower, I will Teleport Through Time to the early days of the Earth, Miracle or Wish for a Forced Dream on him, knock him into a vat of Quintessence, seal it in a box of Riverine and drop it into the Earth's core.

Now, what I want to do is to have some sort of contingent spell that activates when I permanently die that removes enough Quintessence to bring the follower out of stasis, resetting time back to when I cast Forced Dream on him. Unfortunately, Quintessence's interaction with other spells isn't very well defined, so I don't know whether a Disintegrate would be enough or whether it would take more interesting measures, like teleporting some away.

So what it comes down to is:

In order to kill me permanently, they have to kill me (not easy, being a dual-full-caster gestalt), and then they have to kill my Clone or destroy my character sheet.

In order to do that, they have to travel to a black hole (using Reverse Gravity to not be instantly crushed), Disintegrate one of the Riverine walls (eating a Disjunction to the face, which will knock out their Reverse Gravity which will likely kill them). If they succeed there, they have to either destroy the Warforged or Dream Walk into the dream.

If they Dream Walk in, they'll be faced with the most powerful beings 162 Warforged working in tandem can imagine, in a dream world that is sculpted to their advantage. If they succeed in that, then the final clause is activated.

If they destroy the Warforged or destroy the Clone and the character sheet in the Dream, the final Warforged will wake up (due to my death) and reset time to when I kicked him in.


Now, I can't see any good ways to defeat this except for Wish-spam (like Wishing the black hole away and leaving the cage, Wishing that time doesn't reset when I die, Wishing my backups destroyed, etc.).

Is there any way to beat this that I've missed, and is there any way to defend against Wish-spam? Epic Magic is out, so I don't have to worry about that, thankfully.

[Flickerdart]

You're still vulnerable to all the stuff that doesn't kill you, like Flesh to Stone.

[erikun]

Ironically enough, Truenaming will still wipe you out of existance regardless.

Simply scraping away quintessence will cause it to dissipate, and anything that would destroy an object would reasonably destroy the quintessence as well. Just destroy enough that the Warforged isn't covered; it should wake up at that point.

I'm not familiar enough with Forced Dream to say if it would reset things back to creation if you do die, or how to properly trigger/interrupt the trigger, so I will leave that up to others to discuss.

I do note that you assume a very physics-based function of the universe, which is certainly not guaranteed and almost always contradicted in most campaigns I've seen.

[kardar233]

Well, the campaign is set in the real world, so physics shouldn't be a problem.

I hope I'll be able to deal with stuff that doesn't kill me through two sets each of Extended Persisted Archivist, Cleric and Sha'ir casting.

So I only need disintegrate to open up the quintessence? That works.

[Suichimo]

I know practically nothing of high level wizardry, so this may already be addressed or just not matter entirely.

What happens if you destroy the Warforged in the center of the Earth first? I'd rather face the molten core of the Earth before I went after a black hole.

[Alefiend]

Well, the campaign is set in the real world, so physics shouldn't be a problem.

What, aside from magic violating just about every known law or theory of physics? I suppose if you look at it that way, physics shouldn't be a problem. :smallannoyed:

[kardar233]

I don't think there's really much to do to that guy. He's really just a fail-safe just in case someone actually manages to take out my backups. Furthermore, the best thing to do would just be to leave him in there. If you pull him out of the Quintessence, he activates Forced Dream, resetting time. The only thing that might work is pulling him out and then hitting him with some sort of disable before his initiative count.

Ah ha! I'll shapechange him into a Dire Tortoise and hit him with Moment of Prescience before he goes in, giving him an action in the surprise round and a +25 to his Initiative roll, making sure he'll pretty much always go first. Thanks.

[Psyren]

1) Contingent spells are only active on you, so I'm not sure how you plan to set one up that will scrape away the Quintessence on your memory card in the past.

2) What's to stop a party from Teleporting through Time themselves to a few moments before you and your Dream-phylactery arrive? And I can only imagine that a deity - or at the very least, a bunch of miffed inevitables - would have a vested interest in aiding them.

[kardar233]

I'm not necessarily saying a Contingent spell. I just need some kind of trigger to go off when I permanently die, to do the time reset. Any ideas?

I'm not sure I'm a fan of your linear approach to time. Keep in mind that time is more of a ball of wibbley-wobbley... timey-wimey.... stuff. :smallconfused: That kind of got away from me there. What I'm saying is that in a collapsed-time-stream view (which is the one I personally hold) if they will later Teleport Through Time to stop me, they'll show up when I first put it in. Thus, by having already been there and said angry mob not shown up to kill me, they never will.

I don't know how much divine intervention will end up showing up in the campaign, but it's not exactly something you can really plan for. Inevitables I can deal with. This guy is a character, not a BBEG (yet) so I don't think I'll have parties of adventurers showing up on my doorstep.

I think I'll have to make sure that the fact that time will reset if I am killed available knowledge. I'll want anyone who's seriously thinking of taking a crack at me to know I'm effectively a civilization-killing nuke, so I'll spread it around so it's a DC35-40 Gather Information check or similar; so that any near-Epic level characters who might decide to bump me off know. To quote Doctor Strangelove: "Of course, the whole point of a Doomsday Machine is lost, if you *keep* it a *secret*! Why didn't you tell the world, EH?"

[Crasical]

I'm not sure I'm a fan of your linear approach to time. Keep in mind that time is more of a ball of wibbley-wobbley... timey-wimey.... stuff. :smallconfused: That kind of got away from me there. What I'm saying is that in a collapsed-time-stream view (which is the one I personally hold) if they will later Teleport Through Time to stop me, they'll show up when I first put it in. Thus, by having already been there and said angry mob not shown up to kill me, they never will.

Time travel gives me a headache, but if I'm following you, if it happens, it will happen 'the first time around' or not at all.

Doesn't that mean that (Since you assume people are going to come and stop you, I'm going to assume you are a villain) when you finish your scheme and become an unstoppable god king, other people will teleport back in time to stop you, and different groups will keep doing so until your reign of terror is over.

Doesn't that mean that when you teleport back the first time, you will be facing all the potential enemies you will make should this time stream be followed to it's conclusion, and thus have to fight an infinite number of adventurers, which will just kill you then and there?

[legomaster00156]

All I can say is that you've got a really awesome plan for protecting your sheet. Beats mine, for certain (mine is protected completely by level 8 or lower spells, mostly illusions).

[Flickerdart]

Time travel gives me a headache, but if I'm following you, if it happens, it will happen 'the first time around' or not at all.

Doesn't that mean that (Since you assume people are going to come and stop you, I'm going to assume you are a villain) when you finish your scheme and become an unstoppable god king, other people will teleport back in time to stop you, and different groups will keep doing so until your reign of terror is over.

Doesn't that mean that when you teleport back the first time, you will be facing all the potential enemies you will make should this time stream be followed to it's conclusion, and thus have to fight an infinite number of adventurers, which will just kill you then and there?
Eventually you'll run out of flowers untouched since that time. Unless, of course, the first thing travellers do after going back is plant a ton of flowers in various places. Then you'll have to have a squad of guys who does nothing but disturb flowers. So a kind of villainous botanist society.

[Crasical]

What do flowers have to aldfkjasdf s oh gods my brain

[Flickerdart]

The material component for Teleport Through Time is a flower that's been untouched since the time you want to travel to.

[kardar233]

I'm not a villain. I'm just not a very nice guy (CN Pragmatic). While I don't expect to fight anyone that I can't beat with 3 sets of Extended Persistent spells, I like to make backup plans.

I'm not going for a reign of terror; I just want to be ready for anything.

So the time reasoning is that anyone who is going to show up when I set the DoomsdayForged will show up that time, or not at all. So, depending on how many enemies I leave alive, I'll have people I haven't met yet showing up to kill me. I'll have the BlackHoleForged up and running by that point, so I have a backup.

[RaggedAngel]

You may want to have some way to cast spells as supernatural abilites, ala Dweomerkeeper. Then you can Teleport Through Time without worrying about the flowers. You still have to worry about the failure chance, however, and the fact that the spell has a 25% chance of killing you outright, unless you have some way to prevent hundreds of thousands of points of Int damage.

Even if you pull it all off, you have to consider other, worse things that may happen to you. Dominate Monster. Imprisonment. Mind Rape. Death is easy to escape, just ask a Disney villain. Contingent Miracle/Wishes should be enough. To keep your sheet safe just Greater Teleport a random, incomprehensibly large distance from Earth, put it in a block of Riverine to keep it save, and Permanency up a Private Sanctum. If you're really worried, put a few other Permanent MPS's up around the universe whenever you build up enough xp.

Problem=Solved

[Analytica]

I think you are so far into interpretation territory (obscure spells from lots of sources with unclear interactions and unclear details) and houserule territory ("character sheet that gives me my power") that the only person who can determine if this will, in fact, work the way you want is the DM. Present the scheme to them, and they can tell you if your character believes it will work, depending on your character's in-universe knowledge and their own knowledge-by-arbitration of the rules. In any case, impressive strategy.

[Jack_Simth]

I'm not necessarily saying a Contingent spell. I just need some kind of trigger to go off when I permanently die, to do the time reset. Any ideas?

How about you cut a deal with an unaging person, who automatically revives in 2d4 days when slain, and can cast True Resurrection without the components once a day?

Really, though, there is no 'ultimate defense'. See, Forced Dream can be Dispelled or Disjoined if someone is expecting it - meaning that Wish is not strictly necessary, if someone readies an action to remove the Forced Dream from the Quintessance-encased Warforged once the other methods are stripped away.

Likewise, you don't know exactly what happens when the sheet is destroyed - it could be that all the preparations you've made cease to be in that instant, which gets rid of the stuff in the black hole, the stuff in the center of the earth, all the Warforged, the Forced Dream, and everything else all at once. Which is to say, all preparations other than keeping people from getting to it in the first place could very easily be for naught.

And, of course, there's the inherent problem with the Dream: You're resetting time, without preserving your own memory of events (and the Warforged doesn't really know anything about what happened while in stasis).


I'm not sure I'm a fan of your linear approach to time. Keep in mind that time is more of a ball of wibbley-wobbley... timey-wimey.... stuff. :smallconfused: That kind of got away from me there. What I'm saying is that in a collapsed-time-stream view (which is the one I personally hold) if they will later Teleport Through Time to stop me, they'll show up when I first put it in. Thus, by having already been there and said angry mob not shown up to kill me, they never will.

This is the "fate" theory of time travel that shows up in fiction (and is one of the most common). If you try to go back in time to kill your grandfather, something happens to stop it (you misidentify your grandfather, you get hit by a bus when you try, et cetera). Very old, goes all the way back to Oedipus Rex, and very common in fiction. Incidentally, this theory of time travel also makes most reasons for going back in time null and void - the past can't be changed. While you normally think of this applying to big changes, any time you're going into the past, there's a reason for it. If this reason has already been accomplished, you're not going to do so - which means that the only ones you can do are ones that you wouldn't have known about had you not gone back. Information gathering, 'seeding' items in places where they wouldn't be noticed (or at least, would never have come to your attention) for pickup at a later date (e.g., stock certificates in pre-paid safe deposit boxes), et cetera. Works great in fiction, doesn't work so great in a game.

This is not the only theory of time travel, however! There's also insulated effect: If you go back in time to kill your grandfather, he dies, and that change is 'insulated' - you may or may not get destroyed by the timestream for getting rid of your grandfather, but whether you do or not, there's no trace you ever walked the earth (other than the really mysterious death of the person who otherwise would have been your grandfather). This one gives you "Free Will", and is often called that as well. This can generally work reasonably well in gaming.

There's also others - reality split: changing the past doesn't change your personal past, it causes an alternate timeline to spawn. Almost impossible to distinguish from Insulated Effect (aka, Free Will), although when it crops up in fiction it's because travel between realities is possible in some manner. This can generally work reasonably well in gaming as well.

There's also various forms of 'effectively not possible' (ever read or seen The Langoliers? They traveled back in time accidentally... and everyone else had moved on...), and the three above can be mixed to varying degrees and flavors. But before you trust in the time defense, make sure to talk it over with your DM, as you may not be operating under the same theory of time travel as your DM.

[kardar233]

You may want to have some way to cast spells as supernatural abilites, ala Dweomerkeeper. Then you can Teleport Through Time without worrying about the flowers. You still have to worry about the failure chance, however, and the fact that the spell has a 25% chance of killing you outright, unless you have some way to prevent hundreds of thousands of points of Int damage.

Even if you pull it all off, you have to consider other, worse things that may happen to you. Dominate Monster. Imprisonment. Mind Rape. Death is easy to escape, just ask a Disney villain. Contingent Miracle/Wishes should be enough. To keep your sheet safe just Greater Teleport a random, incomprehensibly large distance from Earth, put it in a block of Riverine to keep it save, and Permanency up a Private Sanctum. If you're really worried, put a few other Permanent MPS's up around the universe whenever you build up enough xp.

Problem=Solved

As the flowers don't technically have a listed cost I think I can Eschew Materials them.

As for the INT damage, I'm immune to ability damage. The other things are probably covered by the list of immunities that I'm working on.

I don't feel the "random area of space MPS'd and block of riverine" is quite as secure though. Though that reminds me, I should put scrying protection on all the components of this.


How about you cut a deal with an unaging person, who automatically revives in 2d4 days when slain, and can cast True Resurrection without the components once a day?

Trusting? What kind of universe do you live in?


Really, though, there is no 'ultimate defense'. See, Forced Dream can be Dispelled or Disjoined if someone is expecting it - meaning that Wish is not strictly necessary, if someone readies an action to remove the Forced Dream from the Quintessance-encased Warforged once the other methods are stripped away.

Yeah, the only thing I can think of that can counter a Readied Action is an Immediate Action, and I can't think of a way to use an Immediate Action to take a Swift Action.


Likewise, you don't know exactly what happens when the sheet is destroyed - it could be that all the preparations you've made cease to be in that instant, which gets rid of the stuff in the black hole, the stuff in the center of the earth, all the Warforged, the Forced Dream, and everything else all at once. Which is to say, all preparations other than keeping people from getting to it in the first place could very easily be for naught.

Could be. I'd have to ask the DM. I was assuming that things would stick around the way they were, just I'd lose my powers.


This is the "fate" theory of time travel that shows up in fiction (and is one of the most common). If you try to go back in time to kill your grandfather, something happens to stop it (you misidentify your grandfather, you get hit by a bus when you try, et cetera). Very old, goes all the way back to Oedipus Rex, and very common in fiction. Incidentally, this theory of time travel also makes most reasons for going back in time null and void - the past can't be changed. While you normally think of this applying to big changes, any time you're going into the past, there's a reason for it. If this reason has already been accomplished, you're not going to do so - which means that the only ones you can do are ones that you wouldn't have known about had you not gone back. Information gathering, 'seeding' items in places where they wouldn't be noticed (or at least, would never have come to your attention) for pickup at a later date (e.g., stock certificates in pre-paid safe deposit boxes), et cetera. Works great in fiction, doesn't work so great in a game.

This is not the only theory of time travel, however! There's also insulated effect: If you go back in time to kill your grandfather, he dies, and that change is 'insulated' - you may or may not get destroyed by the timestream for getting rid of your grandfather, but whether you do or not, there's no trace you ever walked the earth (other than the really mysterious death of the person who otherwise would have been your grandfather). This one gives you "Free Will", and is often called that as well. This can generally work reasonably well in gaming.

There's also others - reality split: changing the past doesn't change your personal past, it causes an alternate timeline to spawn. Almost impossible to distinguish from Insulated Effect (aka, Free Will), although when it crops up in fiction it's because travel between realities is possible in some manner. This can generally work reasonably well in gaming as well.

There's also various forms of 'effectively not possible' (ever read or seen The Langoliers? They traveled back in time accidentally... and everyone else had moved on...), and the three above can be mixed to varying degrees and flavors. But before you trust in the time defense, make sure to talk it over with your DM, as you may not be operating under the same theory of time travel as your DM.

Nah, it isn't a Fate theory that I'm talking about here; I'm talking about the time stream as viewed from the outside. From my perspective, it doesn't matter when you teleport back in time to stop me, as you'll show up when I first get there. There aren't multiple iterations of the same event; all the versions of my enemies that show up are what's going to show up.

I'll ask my DM.

Anyone have any ideas for the Doomsday trap to trigger on my permanent death?

[Psyren]

The material component for Teleport Through Time is a flower that's been untouched since the time you want to travel to.

If it has no cost, there's one in his pouch. (Which he picked wearing gloves, thus leaving it "untouched.")

[lorddrake]

(OBS: I'm the DM)

Nice. You're really putting some thought into it.

About time travel you gotta be warned. The game is about how long it will take for reality to break. So, be careful with time.

About time travel. You (player and character) don't know how time paradox will affect reality. So I'll make it a surprise.

And last thing. What happen when the sheet is destroyed is another surprise. :smallamused:

(Loved the plan, really)

[Flickerdart]

If it has no cost, there's one in his pouch. (Which he picked wearing gloves, thus leaving it "untouched.")
The actual wording is "disturbed", and it goes into detail. If it's in the pouch in the first place, then it was disturbed, and doesn't qualify. Eschew Materials could get around it though.

[lorddrake]

The actual wording is "disturbed", and it goes into detail. If it's in the pouch in the first place, then it was disturbed, and doesn't qualify. Eschew Materials could get around it though.

He may have picked it up singing a lullaby?

(Well, it actually depends on how well he can sing... It might be a little more disturbing...)

[Crasical]

I'm not a villain. I'm just not a very nice guy (CN Pragmatic).

Trust? What kind of universe do you live in?


Anyone have any ideas for the Doomsday trap to trigger on my permanent death?


.... All evidence to the contrary?

[Jack_Simth]

He may have picked it up singing a lullaby?

(Well, it actually depends on how well he can sing... It might be a little more disturbing...)
The Spell in Question (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/pg/20030409b) is very specific about what constitutes "Disturbed":

Material Components: The material components of this spell are a pinch of dead skin, a drop of oil of timelessness, and a flower grown in soil untouched by any intelligent creature since the desired destination time. The flower must be picked during the casting of the spell. Untouched soil is defined as soil that no creature with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher has walked on, touched, or disturbed in any way, and it is usually found in remote locations (putting soil in a portable container disturbs it). The caster does not know whether the soil has been disturbed too recently for the time travel attempt, and many wizards simply use trial and error to find suitable locations. In short, you must find a pristine area to cast this spell, then you travel back in time to the exact same location at which you cast the spell. Because important events in a character's life are highly unlikely to take place in pristine locales, it's unlikely you'll have the ability to use this spell to make two of yourself to appear in the same place at the same time. Once you cast the spell in a particular location, it is no longer pristine, making it even more difficult to arrange for three or more of your future selves to assemble together.
(Emphasis added)

Now, it's entirely possible to use that clause to manufacture return points - set up circumstances in which a flower bush will survive indefinitely, but that nobody will disturb - but that limits you to going back to pre-established points in time.


.... All evidence to the contrary?
Heh. Yeah... the ultimate pragmatic who never trusts, and builds a "Doomsday device" for the event of his permanent demise... yeah, that does sound like a villain.



Yeah, the only thing I can think of that can counter a Readied Action is an Immediate Action, and I can't think of a way to use an Immediate Action to take a Swift Action.

The way to do that is to be a spontaneous caster (or find a way to do spontaneous casting, such as with Signature Spell). Greater Celerity gives you a full-round action, which you then use to metamagic the one you were originally planning on having as a Swift action (as it's now a full-round action, and suitable to cast in a Greater Celerity).

Could be. I'd have to ask the DM. I was assuming that things would stick around the way they were, just I'd lose my powers.
Well, you know what they say about the spelling of assume....

Nah, it isn't a Fate theory that I'm talking about here; I'm talking about the time stream as viewed from the outside. From my perspective, it doesn't matter when you teleport back in time to stop me, as you'll show up when I first get there. There aren't multiple iterations of the same event; all the versions of my enemies that show up are what's going to show up. As far as various versions of time travel are concerned, that does indeed fall under the Fate theory, as there is exactly one chain of events in a single stream that can't really be changed - as you said - "all the versions of my enemies that show up are what's going to show up" that's another phrasing of "what did happen is what will happen," or "observed events cannot be altered." Sure, you're putting a different spin on it - you're not protected against changes to the time stream, so anything that changes is exactly what happened - but it is very much the "Fate" category of time travel theory, even if you're not calling it that.

Really, from a timeline perspective, the no worries bit of anyone who was going to stop your preparations doing it having been there the first time is the same as laying a penny down in a secure location, watching it for a day, and then going back in time 12 hours and picking up the penny if the penny was still there after the day of observations. Oh yes, and if you're planning on attempting time travel, I would very much suggest performing this experiment first. Almost anything can deter you from picking up a penny, so if you run headlong into Fate, you'll know about it without fatal consequences. If you've got Insulated Effect or Reality Split, you'll know. If you've got "Effectively not possible" by some flavor, you're very likely to find out (although certain flavors of "effectively not possible" will kill you if you try this expiriment. Oh well, what's life without risk?)