Multiple Natural Attacks PF and 3.5 How do they work?

[MukkTB]

I am confused. I would like to know what the RAW ruling is for a full attack action in the following situations.

(a) 3.5 A monster with claw + claw + bite
(b) 3.5 A PC with claw + claw + bite
(c) PF A monster with claw + claw + bite
(d) PF A PC with claw + claw +bite

I was not able to find rules for (b). I found rules that said that for (a), the monster entry's full attack section determined what it could do.

In case (d) I found that a PC with base attack 1 could only make one attack. Say a claw. A PC with base attack 6 could could claw twice at +6 (+6 claw / +6 claw) where if he had been using a sword he could only have attacked twice with a much poorer swing the second time (+6 sword / +1 sword).

Trying to determine case (c) I found that the words that tied the number of attacks possible to BA had been removed.

How does this stuff work? Does a character with multiple natural attacks get the shaft in pathfinder? IDK. Does multiattack just give a +3 bonus on secondary attacks or does it enable more? Please help.

[kardar233]

I don't know PF, so I can only answer for 3.5.

Remember all that stuff about BAB giving you extra attacks? Throw it out the window. It doesn't work for natural attacks.

Natural attacks work this way:
You have a Primary Natural Attack. This gets its base damage plus your full Strength bonus (1+1/2 your Str bonus if it's your only natural attack) and you make the attack at your full attack bonus.
You may have one or more Secondary Natural Attacks. They get their base damage plus half your Strength bonus, and they make attacks at your attack bonus -5, which is reduced to -2 if you have Multiattack.

When you make an attack as a Standard Action, you make an attack with one natural attack; usually your Primary. When you make a Full Attack, you attack with all of your natural attacks.

That's how it works. There's no difference as far as natural attacks go between PCs and monsters.


~EDIT~ Oh, and if anything is unclear, here (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10994.0) is the Guide to Natural Weapons.

[Darrin]

I am confused. I would like to know what the RAW ruling is for a full attack action in the following situations.

(a) 3.5 A monster with claw + claw + bite


Depends on the monster, and which weapon is the primary. Without any other context:

claw +0/claw -5/bite -5

(Bite is *usually* primary, although some creatures get two primary claw attacks... this is determined somewhat on physiology but more on the whims of the designer.)



(b) 3.5 A PC with claw + claw + bite


Again, without specifically knowing how the natural weapons were acquired, a PC would use the same attack progression. If it's an ability/feat/spell, it usually says which is the primary, which can be secondary, and if both claws can use the same BAB:

claw +0/claw -5/bite -5



(c) PF A monster with claw + claw + bite
(d) PF A PC with claw + claw +bite


As far as I know, there are no significant differences with how PF/3.5 handles natural attacks.



In case (d) I found that a PC with base attack 1 could only make one attack. Say a claw. A PC with base attack 6 could could claw twice at +6 (+6 claw / +6 claw) where if he had been using a sword he could only have attacked twice with a much poorer swing the second time (+6 sword / +1 sword).


You're confusing iterative attacks with natural attacks. While they can be mixed into the same full attack progression, you attack with manufactured weapons first as normal, and then can add any available secondary attacks at a -5 penalty. Adding additional natural attacks to your full attack has no effect on your iterative BAB, you just keep on adding -5 secondary attacks for as many natural weapons as you can get. However, some abilities/feats/spells state explicitly whether the natural attacks granted can be used as secondary (some, such as the psionic power claws of the beast, can't be mixed with manufactured weapons, period.)



How does this stuff work? Does a character with multiple natural attacks get the shaft in pathfinder? IDK. Does multiattack just give a +3 bonus on secondary attacks or does it enable more? Please help.

Could you be a bit more specific about how your Monster/PC got the claw/claw/bite attacks?

[Zombimode]

For natural attacks in 3.5 there is a comprehensive guide here (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10994.0;).

[Yora]

I think when you have two claws and claw is a primary attack, then both claws are primary. I don't know of any monster that has different attack bonuses for two attacks of the same type.

[Darrin]

I think when you have two claws and claw is a primary attack, then both claws are primary.

By RAW, only one natural weapon is primary, and the rest of your natural weapons are secondary. Claws are usually an exception, in that if you have multiple claw attacks, they are sometimes treated as all primary attacks (no BAB penalty), but that has to be stated explicitly somewhere, either in the "Full Attack:" section of the stat block, or in the description of whatever ability/feat/spell/item gave you the claws.

I'm feeling too lazy to look up any specific examples.

[Gwendol]

If the creature has, e.g., several limbs for the same attack (claw, tentacle, or slam for example), and this is the primary attack, then all those attacks uses the same attack bonus. The creature still needs to full attack to be able to use all limbs as usual.

[Gullintanni]

The more vexing question is what happens when mixing iterative attacks into the equation.

Say you're a PC with:

Claw/Claw/Bite - Claws are Primary; and
20/15/10/5 attack progression.

From what I understand, if you make iterative attacks, then you can still make all of your natural attacks, but they're all treated as secondary. So let's say you were TWF, had a sword in each hand and wanted to make natural attacks. Lets say you had GTWF. Your attack routine would be:

18/18/13/13/8/8/3 (-2 each for TWF with light weapons) and Claw/Claw/Bite at 15/15/15 (-5 each for secondary attack penalties). But your two hands with Claws are both full...with weapons. Argh!

[Darrin]

18/18/13/13/8/8/3 (-2 each for TWF with light weapons) and Claw/Claw/Bite at 15/15/15 (-5 each for secondary attack penalties). But your two hands with Claws are both full...with weapons. Argh!

Oh, it gets much worse. The rules never explicitly state that if you attack with a sword in your claw, you can't attack with that claw. In fact, they almost say the exact opposite:

"These secondary attacks don’t interfere with the primary attack"
(from the Rules Compendium, p. 100).

Actually, what it's saying is that "don't interfere" means the secondary attacks don't incur a penalty on the primary/iterative attacks.

We have to infer that attacking with a weapon held in that appendage does not allow that appendage to attack as a secondary attack. At least the stat blocks are very consistent with this, though.

[Keneth]

As far as I know:

c) They're all primary attacks and you can attack once with each at full BAB, regardless of your actual bonus.

d) Same as above OR if using a manufactured weapon, attack normally with the weapon, then attack once with every natural weapon except the one holding the weapon with a -5 penalty.

You cannot make iterative attacks with a natural weapon. A lvl20 fighter with nothing but a bite attack can still only bite once.

[Psyren]

Oh, it gets much worse. The rules never explicitly state that if you attack with a sword in your claw, you can't attack with that claw. In fact, they almost say the exact opposite:

"These secondary attacks don’t interfere with the primary attack"
(from the Rules Compendium, p. 100).

Actually, what it's saying is that "don't interfere" means the secondary attacks don't incur a penalty on the primary/iterative attacks.

We have to infer that attacking with a weapon held in that appendage does not allow that appendage to attack as a secondary attack. At least the stat blocks are very consistent with this, though.

I don't know about 3.5, but Pathfinder (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/combat.html) at least nips this problem in the bud:

"You can make attacks with natural weapons in combination with attacks made with a melee weapon and unarmed strikes, so long as a different limb is used for each attack. For example, you cannot make a claw attack and also use that hand to make attacks with a longsword. When you make additional attacks in this way, all of your natural attacks are treated as secondary natural attacks, using your base attack bonus minus 5 and adding only 1/2 of your Strength modifier on damage rolls. Feats such as Two-Weapon Fighting and Multiattack can reduce these penalties."

[Gullintanni]

"You can make attacks with natural weapons in combination with attacks made with a melee weapon and unarmed strikes, so long as a different limb is used for each attack. For example, you cannot make a claw attack and also use that hand to make attacks with a longsword. When you make additional attacks in this way, all of your natural attacks are treated as secondary natural attacks, using your base attack bonus minus 5 and adding only 1/2 of your Strength modifier on damage rolls. Feats such as Two-Weapon Fighting and Multiattack can reduce these penalties."

The logic! It burns!!! Get it off!!!!! :smallamused:

[stack]

In PF, they are handled differently. If no weapons are used, than all attacks listed as primary get full bab (usually bite, claws, and gore attacks are primary). All secondary attacks take the -5 (or less with feat) penalty.

Rules here (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/universal-monster-rules#TOC-Table:-Natural-Attacks-by-Size).

[Novawurmson]

In PF, they are handled differently. If no weapons are used, than all attacks listed as primary get full bab (usually bite, claws, and gore attacks are primary). All secondary attacks take the -5 (or less with feat) penalty.

Rules here (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/universal-monster-rules#TOC-Table:-Natural-Attacks-by-Size).

There's a reason why Eidolons are limited to a certain number of attacks per round.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Natural Weapons and You: A Mini-Guide
Or How I Learned To Stop Worrying And Love My Claws
By Keld Denar and Solo
(http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10994.0)

[Coidzor]

I don't know about 3.5, but Pathfinder (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/combat.html) at least nips this problem in the bud:

"You can make attacks with natural weapons in combination with attacks made with a melee weapon and unarmed strikes, so long as a different limb is used for each attack. For example, you cannot make a claw attack and also use that hand to make attacks with a longsword. When you make additional attacks in this way, all of your natural attacks are treated as secondary natural attacks, using your base attack bonus minus 5 and adding only 1/2 of your Strength modifier on damage rolls. Feats such as Two-Weapon Fighting and Multiattack can reduce these penalties."

So no goring and biting or biting and headbutting. Aww.

[bobothegoat]

So no goring and biting or biting and headbutting. Aww.

Making your PC have two heads gets around this problem.