Bulding a spellsword for my campaign

[Venser]

Hello :)

So, our ranger died yesterday xD

He asked me to make him a new character. Since the ranger was an overpowered damage dealer who had 5 attacks and could deal up to 120 damage in a full round attack and he killed every single monster there was, I really don't want his next character to be that powerful, yet the party is looking for a damage dealer.

So I thought about spellsword, which is a decent class(not too powerful, yet not too weak and could easily be their new damage dealer)

Since we are using only phb feats and base classes, I am kindda torn between wizard or sorcerer as a 4th level arcane caster(which I need for the spellsword).

I am a bit afraid that if I give him a wizard that he will be insanely powerful, but if I give him a sorcerer he might end up too weak.

Please help :)

[CigarPete]

Unless you have major amounts of downtime and a magic mart with every spell available, there really isn't much difference between the Wizard and Sorcerer, IMO. Wizard has a bit more flexibility initially, Sorcerer has more later in the adventuring day. It really comes down to what flavor you like better.

If you want the purest form, I would just go with straight Cleric :smallbiggrin: medium attack progression, full casting, d8 hit die, excellent spells for making melee more effective, even without the availability of divine metamagic.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

Hello :)

So, our ranger died yesterday xD

He asked me to make him a new character. Since the ranger was an overpowered damage dealer who had 5 attacks and could deal up to 120 damage in a full round attack and he killed every single monster there was, I really don't want his next character to be that powerful, yet the party is looking for a damage dealer.

So I thought about spellsword, which is a decent class(not too powerful, yet not too weak and could easily be their new damage dealer)

Since we are using only phb feats and base classes, I am kindda torn between wizard or sorcerer as a 4th level arcane caster(which I need for the spellsword).

I am a bit afraid that if I give him a wizard that he will be insanely powerful, but if I give him a sorcerer he might end up too weak.

Please help :)

Sounds like you want a Duskblade, From players handbook 2.

If you are still stuck on Spellsword, Sorcerer will not make your friend weak... he'll still be much better off than his "broken" ranger.

[Essence_of_War]

Yeah...I'm with Duncan here.

I'd say make your friend a duskblade. They're fantastic, and feel very gish-y out of the box.

If you want a sorcerer gish, the standby is:
Paladin 2/Sorcerer 4/ Spellsword 1/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Sacred Exorcist 8

But if your group things a ranger is overpowered, I wouldn't let the sorcadin gish near them...

Edit:

If you're actually constrained to PHB classes, you could do:
Wizard 5/Fighter 1/ Eldritch Knight 10/Wizard 6-10 or Archmage

[Venser]

That ranger really was overpowered.

A lvl 12 ranger with 5 attacks, each of them with an enchanted +3 dwarven waraxe and a high attack...and to make things worse, he had an oathbow with him that had two +2 enchantments on it.

[Randomguy]

That's just using magic items. A single slow spell locks down that ranger. Or solid fog. The list goes on. And a barbarian/fighter/frenzied berserker built for ubercharging at that level could do 216 damage on a charge before you factor in weapon damage or strength bonus, if all his attacks hit. (Not nearly as much with only core feats though.) Yeah, these forums can be a scary place.

If you want a good gish build, take essence of war's suggestion. If you want one that's toned down a bit, replace the sacred exorcist levels with dragon disciple, or more levels of spellsword. If you want him to be weak, then take away abjurant champion as well for one of those two.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I'll toss in another vote for Duskblade... that Ranger wasn't actually all that powerful. Most damaging builds can piss out 100 damage by accident by level 12.

Your traditional 'gish' build would completely dominate this game. Even a Fireball, hitting more than three opponents, would be doing about that damage. And that's about the least optimal thing a caster can do with his actions.

[Godskook]

A Ranger with 120 damage between *5* attacks is not 'overpowered'. I think its actually below par. By that point, a fighter with a vicious greatsword, enlarge person, haste, power attack and leap attack is dealing ~60 damage per swing and ~240 per full attack, and I'm *NOT* optimizing yet. that's all basic stuff, and except for leap attack, core.

[DoctorGlock]

@OP, are you familiar with mid/high level play? Because 10/level damage is below the base competence threshold. Enemies have far more HP by this point and the casters just roflstomp.

[Coidzor]

...What are the rest of the players' characters? :smallconfused:

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

That ranger really was overpowered.

A lvl 12 ranger with 5 attacks, each of them with an enchanted +3 dwarven waraxe and a high attack...and to make things worse, he had an oathbow with him that had two +2 enchantments on it.

yeah... no. Im sorry, but if you think making a proper 'gish" type (spellsword) out of a tier 1 or 2 chassis (wizard and sorcerer, respectively) would be LESS powerful than a mere ranger, you are mistaken.

regardless of number of attacks or items, if he doesnt get a full attack, your ranger is screwed. There are MANY spells that would also cramp his style of standing there and full attacking. Too many to mention, really. Your "Overpowered" ranger has the same faults all martial classes have; they are easily shutdown by a caster, mediocre or otherwise.

its a good plan to make a fighter/mage type character... but it ain't gonna be less powerful than a ranger. Any person here can guarantee that.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

...What are the rest of the players' characters? :smallconfused:

This is important. If your group thinks Fireball is "broken," then they probably have a skewed perspective of the game. It could be everyone is doing simple things while the ranger just stumbled into amazing damage output or a number of other things. It could also be due to how your DM runs enemies and the fact that their HP, AC, or something else is just too "low."

Also, you mention that you're only doing PHB classes, but what does the group have access to, as a collective?

Building a gish (really, any sort of caster+melee character) can be both difficult and unintuitive. Generally, though, when played right, they can stomp their foes, either through shear damage (hour/level buffs with swift action ones for deadly full attacks) or tactical advantages (Swift action teleportation spells, immediate action "I don't think so, Tim" life-savers) and action advantage (either via getting more actions or simply being able to almost always do swift/immediate+others).

[Endarire]

Doing 120 damage per round is expected. You're expected to one-shot or one-round foes, especially at 12.

Challenging 3.5 and Pathfinder Parties in Practice (http://antioch.snow-fall.com/~Endarire/DnD/Challenging%203.5%20and%20Pathfinder%20Parties%201 %2031%2011.doc). It gives ideas on what the systems expect.

[Little Brother]

That's just using magic items. A single slow spell locks down that ranger. Or solid fog. The list goes on. And a barbarian/fighter/frenzied berserker built for ubercharging at that level could do 216 damage on a charge before you factor in weapon damage or strength bonus, if all his attacks hit. (Not nearly as much with only core feats though.) Yeah, these forums can be a scary place.

If you want a good gish build, take essence of war's suggestion. If you want one that's toned down a bit, replace the sacred exorcist levels with dragon disciple, or more levels of spellsword. If you want him to be weak, then take away abjurant champion as well for one of those two.216 at level 12 is pathetic. Seriously. That's closer to level 6 damage than anything.

Now, OP, if you want a gish, you're gonna want something like Paladin 2/Sorcerer 6/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Sacred Exorcist X.

For something like your game, however, where the power level is that low, you might want to go with a Stalwart Battle Sorcerer, and not bother multiclassing. Use arcane strike, wraithstrike, etc, take a two-level dip in paladin, and you should be on par with your group. Your Sorcerer levels will be 3/4 BAB, and D8+Con+2 for HP. You're gonna also want at least one level in spellsword or Abjurant Champion, just for BAB 16 at level 20, or both, really. Now, you're going to NEED arcane fusion and GAF, as well as Arcane Spellsurge. Truestrike is nice on a build like yours. I, personally, recommend your build to look something like Paladin 2/Sorcerer 5/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Sorcerer +7, just to go not as far over the top. Keep your intelligence decent, and put some ranks in Perform(Dance), so you can benefit from the Slippers of Battledancing. You REALLY want the Gauntlet of Heartfelt Blows(DrC 136), for Charisma to melee damage. This build gives you 17 BAB, good HP, 9th level spells, casting in light armor, and some other tasty stuff. Remember, power attack and Arcane Strike(Or whatever) are needed.

Suboptimal, I admit, but good for your group.

EDIT: And I cannot count, apparently.

[Greenish]

216 [is] closer to level 6 damage than anything.That's not really true for many groups. Not every damage dealer in every group is a charger.

[Godskook]

216 at level 12 is pathetic. Seriously. That's closer to level 6 damage than anything.

Reality Check: A Mature Adult Green Dragon(CR 16!) has 264 HP. The hypothetical CR 12 Green Dragon would be 1-shotted. And these are dragons. Most CR 12s have much, much lower HP. When you stop asking 'what can I 1-shot', and start asking 'what can't I 1-shot', that's no longer 'pathetic' damage.

[Little Brother]

That's not really true for many groups. Not every damage dealer in every group is a charger.Yes, but that particular quote was about a charger, and I responded about the same, a charger. And if you charger, at 12th level, isn't very near or at quadruple digits, you aren't trying. If you aren't past 500~, you're really doing something wrong.

Reality Check: A Mature Adult Green Dragon(CR 16!) has 264 HP. The hypothetical CR 12 Green Dragon would be 1-shotted. And these are dragons. Most CR 12s have much, much lower HP. When you stop asking 'what can I 1-shot', and start asking 'what can't I 1-shot', that's no longer 'pathetic' damage.So? If you're throwing out things like a Charger, your DM is throwing out templated monstrosities to respond. Instead of a dragon, how would this charger react to, say, a Paragon Were-Dire Lion Troll? A troll-blooded Warforged Juggernaut? A custom monster? A Ghost? A mid-leveled Unbodied, or whatever they're called?

If you just throw out monsters from the manual against a well-made party, you're gonna get spanked. And a level 5 rogue can kill that dragon anyways, I see no issue here.

[DoctorGlock]

Yes, the dragon will get instagibbed by the charger... assuming all attacks hit.

Dragons have good AC
Dragons fly
Dragons have spell defenses
Dragons have terrain advantages in their lairs

A level 6 char can have a damage output of 900+ and it will not matter most of the time because you need ideal circumstances to pull it off.

There is a baseline competence threshold and that is 10/lvl damage at 1-3, 15/lvl at 4-8, and 20/lvl 9 and higher... and those are consistent numbers. You rarely fight one enemy so you need to drop it quick and move to the next.

LB's sorcadin is ideal for a mid range damage dealer with consistency, I second the build.

[Godskook]

If you just throw out monsters from the manual against a well-made party, you're gonna get spanked. And a level 5 rogue can kill that dragon anyways, I see no issue here.

You also missed my point, which was simply "That damage(216) = not pathetic".

[Little Brother]

You also missed my point, which was simply "That damage(216) = not pathetic".You missed my point "While optimized, 216 damage=pathetic."

[Keegan__D]

You've all missed the point of the thread. The group is low-op, and the DM doesn't need to hear what crazy, ten levels of hell, optimization can take his game to. Duskblade is not an option (though it's the perfect mid-power gish). Abjurant Champion is probably op.

I would go with Wizard, since he's losing caster levels to his martial half already. Wizard only gets as powerful as the DM allows. Veto his spell choices if you're worried about them, and let him have just enough down time to make a few items if he wants, or learn a few (approved) spells. As for the martial half (two more BAB), two levels of fighter is a good dip.
Or, if you want to do Sorcerer, Paladin makes a great two-level dip thanks to Divine Grace. Since it seems you're giving appropriate WBL, the Sorcerer might actually be the right choice. Sink some money into boosting his Charisma, and he'll go far, but not too far with a PrC like Spellsword.
As said before, Cleric (or druid) also makes a good gish, and without other books for feats, they won't be getting overpowered.
Enlightened Fist (Complete Arcane) is another good mid-power gish, though the BAB kinda tanks, even with the fractional version.
Do you allow variants like the ones from Unearthed Arcana? If so, looking into the Barbarian variants might be a good idea for PrCs looking to fill a few BAB. Also, the Stalwart (Complete Mage) and Battle (Unearthed Arcana) Sorcerer can do wonders for a gish looking for just a smidge of casting.

[Randomguy]

You missed my point "While optimized, 216 damage=pathetic."

Yeah, I'm not so great at optimising melee builds. But that's actually not counting frenzy or strength or magic items or weapon damage. Counting the extra attacks from frenzy and whirling frenzy that would be about 540 damage if all attacks hit. Counting strength bonus (assuming orc as race, maxed out strength and a +1 collision weapon), it would be 660 damage, and that's without the actual weapon damage or any strength boosting equipment. But that's kind of off topic.

A stalwart battle sorcerer with a 2 level dip in paladin and 5 levels of abjurant champion would be a fairly decent build. It would be a bit weaker than a standard sorcadin but stronger than taking levels in dragon disciple or taking more than one level in spell sword.

[Greenish]

Yes, but that particular quote was about a charger, and I responded about the same, a charger.Ah, I thought you were responding to the OP (and misstyped "120" as "216"). :smalltongue:

[Godskook]

You missed my point "While optimized, 216 damage=pathetic."

For TO, sure, but not for PO, and I didn't miss it, I responded directly to it.

And as far as your slippery slope argument, your own optimization is invoking it, cause you're already 1-shotting the monster manuals, forcing the DM to optimize to compensate for your excessive damage.

[Little Brother]

For TO, sure, but not for PO, and I didn't miss it, I responded directly to it.No, for any attempt at building a charger, that is pathetic. Period.

And as far as your slippery slope argument, your own optimization is invoking it, cause you're already 1-shotting the monster manuals, forcing the DM to optimize to compensate for your excessive damage.Or, yanno, the DM can play smart? Rough terrain, flight, obstacles, etc. Not every single battle is gonna be 60 feet away on a flat field. Even then, have your melee enemies be, say, an Ogre bodyguard with three levels in Knight and the rest in Warblade. There we go, rough terrain, and good offence.

[Coidzor]

No, for any attempt at building a charger, that is pathetic. Period.

Why are you so desperate to be universally right about this tangent?

[Little Brother]

Why are you so desperate to be universally right about this tangent?I'm not. I am just right.

[herrhauptmann]

Coidzor, just drop it with little brother. Trust me. His standard level of optimization makes a well played Cindy look average.


He asked me to make him a new character. Since the ranger was an overpowered damage dealer who had 5 attacks and could deal up to 120 damage in a full round attack and he killed every single monster there was, I really don't want his next character to be that powerful, yet the party is looking for a damage dealer.

So I thought about spellsword, which is a decent class(not too powerful, yet not too weak and could easily be their new damage dealer)

Since we are using only phb feats and base classes, I am kindda torn between wizard or sorcerer as a 4th level arcane caster(which I need for the spellsword).

I am a bit afraid that if I give him a wizard that he will be insanely powerful, but if I give him a sorcerer he might end up too weak.

Please help :)
As a gish, using a tier 1 or 2 character won't appreciably change power level. Unless you're in a game where the iconic fireball is strong. In which case, a higher number of fireballs approaches 'overpowered'.
Would you be able to tell us approximately what the rest of the party plays? If you've got a sword+board fighter, a dual dagger fencer type fighter, and a heal bot cleric in the party, it would be very easy for us to accidentally overpower this gish (in comparison to the rest of the party).

Perhaps we build you the character, but you leave the player to choose all his own spells. It sounds like he got lucky with a combination of good loot, and one or two ok feats with his last character. So there's a very real chance he'll be grabbing fireballs and lightning bolts for his spells (not realizing that gishes should be buffing themselves, not trying to overpower the enemy with spells).
So how about this:
Sorc6/Ftr1/Spellsword1/Swiftblade (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327) 4 (Sorc 6/Ftr1 is enough to enter spellsword, right? I'm away from my books.) Swiftblade is a fun PrC. Though perhaps a few less levels in swiftblade, and a couple in the primary gish PrC
Abjurant Champion will significantly raise the optimization level of this gish.
A Standard gish is the sorcadin. Sorc4/Pal2/Spellsword1/Abjurant Champ5/Sacred Exorcist 8.
-My favorite sorcadin lite: The Sublime Arcanamach.
Paladin1 (harmonious knight from champ of valor web enhancement)/Full Bab 5/Suel Arcanamach 4/Sublime Chord 1/Abjurant Champion/Sacred Exorcist
Still gets 9th level spells if you declare that Harm knight qualifies for sublime chord. Spell list is a bit limited compared to the sorcadin. And total number of spells known, and spells/day is lower than for the sorcadin. But still gets a number of neat little abilities that should make up for it.

Also, if his character died as a result of bad/dumb decisions on his part, it used to be standard to have a replacement character come in 1 level lower than the dead character (encourages people to get their characters rezzed, rather than always bringing in a new one). But if he died as a result of excellent roleplaying, or terrible luck (bad rolls on a crit/fumble chart vs a level 2 mook), it would be acceptable to ignore that old rule.

[Coidzor]

Spellsword would require Sorcerer 6/Fighter 1 to get into it as it requires BAB 4, unlike Abjurant Champion which requires BAB 5, part of why Spellsword is called the 0th level of Abjurant Champion or possibly 1st... At any rate, the combo of the two go together like bread and butter.

Unless one is a Battle Sorcerer, in which case the sorcerer would need to be Sorcerer 4/Fighter 1 to qualify. Which is convenient as it requires all simple and martial weapons and 2nd level spells so one couldn't get lower than sorcerer 4 anyway.

I think that's part of why "standard" sorcadin builds are sorc 4/pally 2/Spellsword1/AbjurantChampion5/Sacred Exorcist8. At least, if I'm recalling what sorcadin builds look like correctly...

Best part is, unless one is trying to qualify in a game that starts out too low level to start as one, the special fluff requirement can just be glossed over.