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Thespianus
2011-12-13, 08:33 AM
Hello. I'm trying to understand Druids.

I have posted an earlier thread where I tried to make sense of the rules for Animal Companions and how to advance them, but I didn't want to violate rules about thread necromancy. So I ask a similar question here. Can this be right?

As far as I understand it: Getting an Ape (4HD) as your Animal Companion as a Druid 1 can be done by taking the Natural Bond feat, and after that, you can spend some time, make a DC 24 Handle Animal check (difficult, ofcourse, at level 1), and end up with a Warbeast Ape as your Animal Companion? A Large Animal with 5HD , 10ft reach and a Strength of 24?

The next time the Ape gains a level/HD (which will happen when the Druid reaches level 3) , the Ape gains a Feat (at 6HD) and directly after that, he will gain another HD (to 7 HD) since Druid level 3 increases the Animal Companion's HD with 2, and he also gains +2 to Natural Armor, +1 to Str and Dex, one more Trick and Evasion?

Am I doing the math right here? Or am I being very stupid?

The 4HD from the base Ape makes things difficult for me. :) Please have patience, I'm trying to wrap my head around this whole thing.

It seems like a very good option for a Druid, and inspite of this, I am given to understand that the Riding Dog is a better option all together?

Keneth
2011-12-13, 08:44 AM
Natural Bond will not work unless you're multiclassing.

This bonus can never make your effective druid level exceed your character level.

Ceaon
2011-12-13, 08:48 AM
No matter whether the shaky "Natural Bond can make your effective druid level higher than your character level if you choose an animal companion from an alternative list" interpretation is the right one, the SRD is quite clear about if it works at level 1.


A druid of 4th level or higher may select from alternative lists of animals. Should she select an animal companion from one of these alternative lists, the creature gains abilities as if the character’s druid level were lower than it actually is. Subtract the value indicated in the appropriate list header from the character’s druid level and compare the result with the druid level entry on the table to determine the animal companion’s powers. (If this adjustment would reduce the druid’s effective level to 0 or lower, she can’t have that animal as a companion.)
(Emphasis added.)

So, no, at level 1 you can't select an ape, since you're not a druid of 4th level, no matter how high your effective druid level is.

Keneth
2011-12-13, 08:54 AM
Who actually interprets it like that? It says "as if" which clearly implies that it doesn't actually change your effective level whereas natural bond does. :smallconfused:

Thespianus
2011-12-13, 08:58 AM
So, no, at level 1 you can't select an ape, since you're not a druid of 4th level, no matter how high your effective druid level is.
Ah, ok. That's kinda good, then. It seemed a bit too crazy.

However, at level 4, I ought to be able to use Natural Bond to gain a 7 HD Warbeast Ape. ;)

I'm basing this on the phrasing of the SRD:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/druid.htm


Should she select an animal companion from one of these alternative lists, the creature gains abilities as if the character’s druid level were lower than it actually is. Subtract the value indicated in the appropriate list header from the character’s druid level and compare the result with the druid level entry on the table to determine the animal companion’s powers. (If this adjustment would reduce the druid’s effective level to 0 or lower, she can’t have that animal as a companion.)

And, from the Natural Bond feat:


This bonus can never make your effective druid level exceed your character level

But that might be an ongoing RAW discussion that is better suited for another thread.

Thanks, anyway, for clearing this up.

Gwendol
2011-12-13, 09:34 AM
Yup, looks like you got it right. That's going to be one mean animal companion...

Thespianus
2011-12-13, 09:59 AM
Yup, looks like you got it right. That's going to be one mean animal companion...

When the Druid hits level 6, the Ape (at 9HD) will be able to get Improved Grapple with an unboosted Str of 26. Mean. Mean. Mean Animal Companion. :)

Keneth
2011-12-13, 10:02 AM
You're choosing to ignore the entire wording in order to exploit the ability. You better hope your DM is lenient because core rulebooks are heavy. :smallbiggrin:

gkathellar
2011-12-13, 10:04 AM
You should switch the Ape for a Fleshraker. Search your feelings, you know it to be true.

Thespianus
2011-12-13, 10:31 AM
You're choosing to ignore the entire wording in order to exploit the ability. You better hope your DM is lenient because core rulebooks are heavy. :smallbiggrin:

I'd like to see it like I'm applying feats and abilities in the most beneficial order, like the rules tells us to do. ;)

Ofcourse, I can still get smacked down with books, but I don't see how this violates any rules. I underlined what I see is the two key segments in the rules, and they use the same term "effective druid level".

I'm not ignoring the entire wording, I'm checking to see where the phrase "effective druid level" is used: In the Animal Companion rules, as quoted, and in the text of the feat for Natural Bond.



The Fleshraker is just too intense. ;) I'll smack myself with books in that case.

gkathellar
2011-12-13, 10:39 AM
The Fleshraker is just too intense. ;) I'll smack myself with books in that case.

... shared venomfire ...

Skelengar
2011-12-13, 11:14 AM
If this is wrong, I don't want to be right.

Novawurmson
2011-12-13, 11:28 AM
The way I understand it, is if you go Commoner 3/Druid 3 (replace commoner with another class of our choice) and take Natural Bond as your 6th level feat, you'll have the animal companion of a 6th level Druid (3+3), despite only having three levels of Druid. If you are just a single-class Druid, this feat has no use for you.

Gwendol
2011-12-13, 11:41 AM
It does if you pick a tougher animal by which you reduce your "effective" druid level. At least that is the interpretation put forward here.


Should she select an animal companion from one of these alternative lists, the creature gains abilities as if the character’s druid level were lower than it actually is. Subtract the value indicated in the appropriate list header from the character’s druid level and compare the result with the druid level entry on the table to determine the animal companion’s powers. (If this adjustment would reduce the druid’s effective level to 0 or lower, she can’t have that animal as a companion.)

With natural bond, and a generous interpretation of what en effective druid level is in this case, the player could still use her actual level (or effective level +3 depending on ECL and choice of animal companion).

Keneth
2011-12-13, 11:44 AM
I'm not ignoring the entire wording, I'm checking to see where the phrase "effective druid level" is used: In the Animal Companion rules, as quoted, and in the text of the feat for Natural Bond.
And yet you are ignoring the first part which provides context and which makes no mention of actual change to the effective druid level. As far as I'm concerned, this is just another case of selective reading but whatever may be the case, when exploiting the system, it's always up to the DM if he'll let it fly.

Druids need no love however, I'm now considering a rule of thumb "if you're a druid an you're not sure if you get a bonus from something - you don't" for my group. :smallbiggrin:

Thespianus
2011-12-13, 11:58 AM
With natural bond, and a generous interpretation of what en effective druid level is in this case, the player could still use her actual level (or effective level +3 depending on ECL and choice of animal companion).

The way I see it, it's not even a very generous interpretation:

At level 4, the Druid with the Natural Bond feat says "Now I want to call forth an Ape Animal Companion".

That then happens is, from the SRD: "Subtract the value indicated in the appropriate list header from the character’s druid level".

Druid level is 4 (because Natural Spell cant push the effective level over the character level), and then the value indicated in the approproiate list header (-3) is subtracted from that, leaving the Druid with an effective druid level of 1. With Natural Bond, however, the effective level is increased with +3 to 4.

This kind of maneuvers are used all the time. For example, the Unseen Seer gets a Caster Level penalty for all other schools than Divination, but with Practiced Spellcaster, this penalty is removed/reduced.

Same type of scenario: One factor reduces the value in question, another factor increases it, and the rules are clear that we can apply feats in the order that gives the player the best benefit.

But to each his own, I've never played a Druid and I'm just now starting to look into the crazy powers that turn up once you start to look into the class. And the Animal Companion is still the least powerful of the major class features of the Druid. :)

Gwendol
2011-12-13, 03:34 PM
Oh, I'm with you on this. And I would also refer tothe unseen seer example.

Urpriest
2011-12-13, 03:38 PM
Be aware that having a Warbeast animal companion is also somewhat contentious ruleswise: for one, the rules for "training a warbeast" make more sense as DCs to train a preexisting warbeast, not to turn something else into a warbeast.

Thespianus
2011-12-13, 04:39 PM
Be aware that having a Warbeast animal companion is also somewhat contentious ruleswise: for one, the rules for "training a warbeast" make more sense as DCs to train a preexisting warbeast, not to turn something else into a warbeast.

Well, the rules for training a wild animal into a Warbeast are right there in the Monster Manual II, it takes a year and two months (more than I wrote earlier, my mistake), and the Handle Animal rolls are a bit different, but I see nothing that prevents a Druid spending some time training the Animal Companion into a Warbeast after he gained the Animal Companion.

In fact, I would think that the training can arguably be made easier with an Animal Companion, but that's outside of RAW, I believe.

deuxhero
2011-12-13, 04:57 PM
Note that while ACs gain bonuses to their strength/dex, racial hit die don't give ability score boosts.

Chaosblade
2011-12-13, 06:28 PM
This is a troll thread, right?

This bonus can never make your effective druid level exceed your character level.

Level 1 Druid
Character Level 1
4 > 1

Why is this hard to understand?

skycycle blues
2011-12-13, 06:36 PM
This is a troll thread, right?

This bonus can never make your effective druid level exceed your character level.

Level 1 Druid
Character Level 1
4 > 1

Why is this hard to understand?

It's usually helpful to read past the first post. This has been handled soundly.

Coidzor
2011-12-13, 06:41 PM
No matter whether the shaky "Natural Bond can make your effective druid level higher than your character level if you choose an animal companion from an alternative list" interpretation is the right one, the SRD is quite clear about if it works at level 1.

You're either misunderstanding or mischaracterizing the argument.

It doesn't make effective druid level higher than character level, it partially or fully counteracts the penalty to effective druid level from taking a higher level animal companion.


Note that while ACs gain bonuses to their strength/dex, racial hit die don't give ability score boosts.

Where is that noted anyway?

Urpriest
2011-12-13, 06:46 PM
Well, the rules for training a wild animal into a Warbeast are right there in the Monster Manual II, it takes a year and two months (more than I wrote earlier, my mistake), and the Handle Animal rolls are a bit different, but I see nothing that prevents a Druid spending some time training the Animal Companion into a Warbeast after he gained the Animal Companion.

In fact, I would think that the training can arguably be made easier with an Animal Companion, but that's outside of RAW, I believe.

Care to back that up? The rules you're quoting look like the rules for training an animal that's already a warbeast. That would explain the DCs, given how those DCs were structured in 3.5.

Coidzor
2011-12-13, 06:49 PM
Care to back that up? The rules you're quoting look like the rules for training an animal that's already a warbeast. That would explain the DCs, given how those DCs were structured in 3.5.

How does it look like what you're saying it looks like and what DC structure are you referring to specifically?

Toliudar
2011-12-13, 07:02 PM
How does it look like what you're saying it looks like and what DC structure are you referring to specifically?

Now you've got me curious. Looking at the relevant passage in the MM:

A warbeast can be reared and trained just as the base creature
can. If the base creature is a domestic animal, the creature
need not be specially reared, but it must be trained for
two months (Handle Animal DC 20) to develop its abilities.
A warbeast based on a wild animal must be reared for one
year (Handle Animal DC 15 + HD of the warbeast), then trained
for 2 months (Handle Animal DC 20 + HD of the warbeast).
A warbeast based on a beast must be reared for one year
(Handle Animal DC 20 + HD of the warbeast), then trained
for 2 months (Handle Animal DC 25 + HD of the warbeast).
A warbeast based on a vermin, being mindless, is untrainable.
A trained warbeast is capable of carrying a rider into battle,
and it gains the combative mount special quality (see above).

The difficulty seems to be whether training a warbeast is the activity that applies the template, or a separate activity that simply adds tricks and the ability to be ridden.

In defense of the former interpretation, there's no other indication of a way to acquire the template. In defense of the latter, the initial fluff refers to a warbeast being "born and raised", implying that it is an inherent rather than an acquired template.

Also, the fact that warbeast vermin exist but cannot be trained suggests that the training is not, in fact, how the template is acquired in the first place, because there would be no way for a vermin to become a warbeast.

Urpriest
2011-12-13, 07:05 PM
How does it look like what you're saying it looks like and what DC structure are you referring to specifically?

Hmm, I thought as a forum old-timer you'd have encountered this argument before now. Here's how it works:

First, look at Special Qualities: you'll see Combative Mount.


A rider on a trained warbeast mount gets a +2 circumstance bonus on all Ride checks. A trained warbeast is proficient with light, medium, and heavy armor. A vermin warbeast, being mindless and therefore untrainable, cannot have this ability.

Right here we have a distinction between two types of warbeasts: trained and untrained. Clearly some warbeasts are the former and some are the latter, because vermin warbeasts are apparently restricted to being the latter.

How does a warbeast go from untrained to trained? Why, you train them of course:


A warbeast can be reared and trained just as the base creature can.

This means that, despite the fact that warbeasts are bred a mounts, they are not automatically treated as domestic animals. Rather, the Handle Animal DC is the same as it would be for the base animal: domestic animals stay at the domestic DC, while wild animals stay at the wild DC.

Indeed, the numbers given below that sentence back up this assertion. Remember this was 3.0, so Handle Animal had a different DC structure. Reading the entries for each type, you see that the time and DC matches that of the base animal/beast/vermin. You also see again that vermin warbeasts cannot be trained, which would make it impossible for them to exist under (what I presume is) your interpretation, despite the template explicitly allowing them.

The end of this section says that a trained warbeast gains the combative mount feature. Again, this indicates that before training the creature is a warbeast without the combative mount feature, not a wild animal.

Finally, while fluff is of course not RAW, I direct you to the description:

A warbeast is a creature born and raised to serve as a rider's mount. Bred for exceptional strength, aggression, and surefootedness, these creatures are powerfully built, strong-willed, and openly belligerent.
Warbeasts are born, not trained.

Ceaon
2011-12-13, 07:47 PM
You're either misunderstanding or mischaracterizing the argument.

It doesn't make effective druid level higher than character level, it partially or fully counteracts the penalty to effective druid level from taking a higher level animal companion.

You are right! It was a mischaracterization fueled by speedy typing. My other points still stand, though: it is a shaky interpretation (as evidenced by the fact that there are some posters here who advocate against it) and, in any case, can't be used by druids of level 1, 2 or 3, since such druids are unable to select ACs from an alternative list.

NeoSeraphi
2011-12-13, 08:26 PM
Where is that noted anyway?

From the SRD:


Extra eight-sided (d8) Hit Dice, each of which gains a Constitution modifier, as normal. Remember that extra Hit Dice improve the animal companion’s base attack and base save bonuses. An animal companion’s base attack bonus is the same as that of a druid of a level equal to the animal’s HD. An animal companion has good Fortitude and Reflex saves (treat it as a character whose level equals the animal’s HD). An animal companion gains additional skill points and feats for bonus HD as normal for advancing a monster’s Hit Dice.

Emphasis mine. In this case, the bonus HD mechanic is different from simply advancing the creature's racial hit dice. The statement at the end says "you gain additional skill points and feats for bonus HD as normal for advancing a monster's Hit Dice". It covers BAB. It covers saves. It says nothing about advancing ability scores "as normal". Instead, you get the Str/Dex progression.

Godskook
2011-12-13, 10:16 PM
1.RHD most certainly do give ability score improvements. The relevant text I could find was:


Treat monster Hit Dice the same as character level for determining ability score increases. This only applies to Hit Dice increases, monsters do not gain ability score increases for levels they "already reached" with their racial Hit Dice, since these adjustments are included in their basic ability scores. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm)

2.@NeoSeraphi, while it doesn't actually call out ability scores, the text there is worded as reminder text, saying that it works "as normal". Arguing that something not mentioned works "not as normal", based on that quote, sounds very illogical to me.

NeoSeraphi
2011-12-14, 12:02 AM
2.@NeoSeraphi, while it doesn't actually call out ability scores, the text there is worded as reminder text, saying that it works "as normal". Arguing that something not mentioned works "not as normal", based on that quote, sounds very illogical to me.

Well, granting the player the ability to A) increase the animal's mental ability scores and B) grant additional ability score advancement on top of +1 Str, +1 Dex per two RHD seems very illogical to me. So no, I think that in this case, bonus HD are different from racial hit dice, and follow their own rules.

Edit: Plus, saying "Okay, here's how your companion works. Here's the rules for his hit dice, here's the rules for BAB and saves, and he gains skill points and feats as normal" does not imply he gets ability score bonuses "as normal" as well. It directly states that he receives skill points and feats at the regular rate. It does not directly state that he receives an ability score increase. Therefore, my RAW interpretation is that he does not receive an ability score increase.

Coidzor
2011-12-14, 12:15 AM
Well, granting the player the ability to A) increase the animal's mental ability scores and B) grant additional ability score advancement on top of +1 Str, +1 Dex per two RHD seems very illogical to me. So no, I think that in this case, bonus HD are different from racial hit dice, and follow their own rules.

Which doesn't really help answer the question of where it states that RHD can't give ability score advancement.

NeoSeraphi
2011-12-14, 12:23 AM
Which doesn't really help answer the question of where it states that RHD can't give ability score advancement.

RHD always give ability score advancement. Just not the bonus HD that an animal companion receives from the animal companion class feature.

Thespianus
2011-12-14, 01:11 AM
Warbeasts are born, not trained.

I see this now, and I admit I was in error earlier. Thanks.

This also ought to mean that Druids can't get a Warbeast as their Animal Companion, as the rules say that "The Animal Companion is typical for its race" (paraphrasing).

Seems to me that the Warbeast template goes beyond what can be called "typical". :)

Godskook
2011-12-14, 01:43 AM
Well, granting the player the ability to A) increase the animal's mental ability scores and B) grant additional ability score advancement on top of +1 Str, +1 Dex per two RHD seems very illogical to me. So no, I think that in this case, bonus HD are different from racial hit dice, and follow their own rules.

This is a argument about it being illogically balanced, while my argument was one of illogical wording. They're not really comparable, and giving argument about something being imbalanced has no bearing on if something is RAW or not.


Edit: Plus, saying "Okay, here's how your companion works. Here's the rules for his hit dice, here's the rules for BAB and saves, and he gains skill points and feats as normal" does not imply he gets ability score bonuses "as normal" as well. It directly states that he receives skill points and feats at the regular rate. It does not directly state that he receives an ability score increase. Therefore, my RAW interpretation is that he does not receive an ability score increase.

BAB and Saves rates change, according to the HD gained, so it makes sense that these would be stated explicitly. Everything else in that paragraph is stated in a "as normal" tone. And while I'll admit that it doesn't imply that it gains ability scores "as normal", it certainly can't be used to say the HD don't grant ability scores "as normal", cause there's nothing abnormal about how those HD work.

ClothedInVelvet
2011-12-14, 02:18 AM
BAB and Saves rates change, according to the HD gained, so it makes sense that these would be stated explicitly. Everything else in that paragraph is stated in a "as normal" tone. And while I'll admit that it doesn't imply that it gains ability scores "as normal", it certainly can't be used to say the HD don't grant ability scores "as normal", cause there's nothing abnormal about how those HD work.

You can't say "cause there's nothing abnormal about how those HD work" in an argument about how bonus HD work. It's begging the question.

They're bonus HD, and we're told that they add feats and skills as normal, but that's all we're told. In fact, it seems like these HD work differently than any other HD because BAB and Saves are modified.

I'm siding with NeoSeraphi on this. There is nothing in this text to tell me that I should boost attribute scores based on bonus HD (besides the special bonuses that aren't based on bonus HD).

Philistine
2011-12-14, 02:41 AM
I see this now, and I admit I was in error earlier. Thanks.

This also ought to mean that Druids can't get a Warbeast as their Animal Companion, as the rules say that "The Animal Companion is typical for its race" (paraphrasing).

Seems to me that the Warbeast template goes beyond what can be called "typical". :)

In fact, I believe the rules specifically refer to a first-level Druid's animal companion as being typical for its race.

Gwendol
2011-12-14, 04:53 AM
Why can't the druid get a warbeast as animal companion? In that case they can't get warhorses either since those animals already have the war template applied. I know warhorses aren't explicitly listed as AC's, but I do think there are quite a few druids running around with a heavy warhorse companion.

It's just a template describing an unusually strong animal, suited as mount. As DM it wouldn't be overly harsh to lower the druid's level by one to determine the animal companion HD progression, thus preventing the player to get the animal at level 1, but other than that I see no issues with this.

Keneth
2011-12-14, 05:16 AM
At level 4, the Druid with the Natural Bond feat says "Now I want to call forth an Ape Animal Companion".

That then happens is, from the SRD: "Subtract the value indicated in the appropriate list header from the character’s druid level".

Druid level is 4 (because Natural Spell cant push the effective level over the character level), and then the value indicated in the approproiate list header (-3) is subtracted from that, leaving the Druid with an effective druid level of 1. With Natural Bond, however, the effective level is increased with +3 to 4.

This kind of maneuvers are used all the time. For example, the Unseen Seer gets a Caster Level penalty for all other schools than Divination, but with Practiced Spellcaster, this penalty is removed/reduced.

Same type of scenario: One factor reduces the value in question, another factor increases it, and the rules are clear that we can apply feats in the order that gives the player the best benefit. There's a clear difference between unseen seer and druid mechanics. Unseen seer's divination spell power specifically reduces the caster level for all other schools ("Your caster level for all other arcane spells is reduced by X"), for a druid you merely treat your level as if it were lower than it actually is, whether the provided instruction on how this is achieved affects your effective level at any particular time where you could apply the feat is up for debate. Now I'm not saying your interpretation is wrong but it's far from de facto and should therefore always be brought up with the DM, if he agrees or if you are the DM, then go wild (no pun intended). :smallbiggrin:

ShriekingDrake
2011-12-14, 08:13 AM
I see this now, and I admit I was in error earlier. Thanks.

This also ought to mean that Druids can't get a Warbeast as their Animal Companion, as the rules say that "The Animal Companion is typical for its race" (paraphrasing).

Seems to me that the Warbeast template goes beyond what can be called "typical". :)

Hoping not to incite a riot ...
A 1st-level druid’s companion is completely typical for its kind except as noted below. (Emphasis mine.) My only point here is that the typicality reference seemingly applies to first level druids. When I am the DM and players want templated animal companions, I'll allow some, but I apply an appropriate adjustment. But, no templates at first level.

Thespianus
2011-12-14, 11:01 AM
There's a clear difference between unseen seer and druid mechanics. Unseen seer's divination spell power specifically reduces the caster level for all other schools ("Your caster level for all other arcane spells is reduced by X"), for a druid you merely treat your level as if it were lower than it actually is (...)

I agree that's a difference in phrasing, but I fail to see the effect it will have. Regardless of if X IS 4, or if X is treated as 4, the effect is the same: X counts as 4.

In the Druid case, the feat and the AC text both mention "effective" druid level, and it's the effective druid level that cant be higher than your character level.

But, sure, I agree that the Druid don't need this interpretation. However, in a scenario where a DM has banned Natural Spell, boosting the AC makes sense, and the argument might be reasonable to have with the DM.

DrDeth
2011-12-14, 11:23 AM
Why can't the druid get a warbeast as animal companion? In that case they can't get warhorses either since those animals already have the war template applied. I know warhorses aren't explicitly listed as AC's, but I do think there are quite a few druids running around with a heavy warhorse companion.

It's just a template describing an unusually strong animal, suited as mount. As DM it wouldn't be overly harsh to lower the druid's level by one to determine the animal companion HD progression, thus preventing the player to get the animal at level 1, but other than that I see no issues with this.

I suppose they could. But they can’t get the template for “free” by “training”.

Nor does the Natural Bond feat help if you have a single class druid.

Coidzor
2011-12-14, 08:21 PM
I suppose they could. But they can’t get the template for “free” by “training”.

Nor does the Natural Bond feat help if you have a single class druid.

If you're the DM. As has been noted, this is a contentious subject. :smallwink:

Urpriest
2011-12-14, 10:02 PM
Why can't the druid get a warbeast as animal companion? In that case they can't get warhorses either since those animals already have the war template applied. I know warhorses aren't explicitly listed as AC's, but I do think there are quite a few druids running around with a heavy warhorse companion.

It's just a template describing an unusually strong animal, suited as mount. As DM it wouldn't be overly harsh to lower the druid's level by one to determine the animal companion HD progression, thus preventing the player to get the animal at level 1, but other than that I see no issues with this.

They don't actually have the war template, though. There is a big difference between creatures with a template and merely modified creatures (put another way, would you allow Druids to grab animals with the Paragon template? Why not?)

You're saying it would be reasonable to lower the level by 1, but why 1 in particular? Why not 2, or 26, or anything in between? There are no guidelines beyond the printed options. Once you use reasonability you're veering into homebrew, which is fine for your game, but rather not what the thread is about.

And if it isn't explicitly listed as a choice, it isn't one. You can't have a warhorse animal companion. If you had chosen war-trained riding dog you would have had a better argument, but again, it's a rules system, not a fluff system, and there is a difference between something being in the statblock and something being a template.

Gwendol
2011-12-15, 03:39 AM
I know it's not listed, just offering advice on how to go about such a request. The animal gains a HD, thus lowering the druid effective by one seems reasonable.


The Monster Manual describes a few "war creatures" that have qualities similar to those of a warbeast but differ from standard creatures of a given kind. These creatures are considered to already have a separate "war template" and cannot have the warbeast template added. For example, one cannor apply the warbeast template to a heavy warhorse.

They actually are already "war templated". Furthermore, the argument can certainly also be made that the riding dog be part of the "already warbeast templated" animals (+1 HD, bred for use as mount, etc); just slap on the 2 months training for the trip.

But back to the question at hand: no, you cannot expect to gain a warbeast animal as a druid, and certainly not at 1st level, although it is not unreasonable to argue that at higher levels the druid can gain such an "augmented" animal (they do get access to dire animals after all).

Urpriest
2011-12-15, 10:04 AM
although it is not unreasonable to argue that at higher levels the druid can gain such an "augmented" animal (they do get access to dire animals after all).

Dire animals also aren't augmented, any more than a Wolverine is an augmented Weasel.

Gwendol
2011-12-15, 10:20 AM
Of course they are augmented; just not by applying a template, or advancing HD.

Dire animals are larger, tougher, meaner versions of ordinary animals. Each kind tends to have a feral, prehistoric, or even demonic appearance.

The higher level druid has to decide whether to advance his ordinary animal or swap it for a dire animal (or a more powerful ordinary beast).

Morph Bark
2011-12-15, 10:31 AM
Natural Bond will not work unless you're multiclassing.

Good thing too, otherwise level 1 human druids could have Warbeast Dire Bear animal companions.

Thespianus
2011-12-15, 11:55 AM
Good thing too, otherwise level 1 human druids could have Warbeast Dire Bear animal companions.

Really? That would be a 12 effective druid level difference. How do you figure?