The secret of the Snarl's universe

[Jay R]

Does anybody have any idea why Vaarsuvius is keeping secret from the rest of the order that their entire mission is based on a false premise, since the gates are hiding, not an angry Snarl about to burst free, but an entire new universe? Shouldn't they know that they're operating under false assumptions?

(Yes, I know. The answer to most such questions is that the story is supposed to last a long time. But is there an in-character reason?)

[Palthera]

V says why to Blackwing, the information comes from Blackwing and s/he wants the party to acknowledge his existence before s/he tells the party that Blackwing found out some important information. Otherwise the party will likely just think this another part of V's delusion...

[Jay R]

V says why to Blackwing, the information comes from Blackwing and s/he wants the party to acknowledge his existence before s/he tells the party that Blackwing found out some important information. Otherwise the party will likely just think this another part of V's delusion...

If so, then it's time, now that a little bird told Roy where Vaarsuvius is.

[Bulldog Psion]

V says why to Blackwing, the information comes from Blackwing and s/he wants the party to acknowledge his existence before s/he tells the party that Blackwing found out some important information. Otherwise the party will likely just think this another part of V's delusion...

If that's the case, then V is insane, because the fate of the world counts for a bit more than the sensitive feelings of an individual raven ... :smallannoyed:

[NerfTW]

V says why to Blackwing, the information comes from Blackwing and s/he wants the party to acknowledge his existence before s/he tells the party that Blackwing found out some important information. Otherwise the party will likely just think this another part of V's delusion...

Um, no, where on earth did you get that idea? There's no indication of that in the comic.

V didn't pull a complete 180. He's still following the old habit of assuming that if he can't figure it out, his companions are certainly too dumb.

Also, there's really no point to it. For all we know, he DID tell them, and it's just not relevant. Knowing you can see a world within the rift doesn't change anything at all about their current mission.

But my guess is that it will come up later, when they meet the Draketooths and get the other side of the Scribble's quest/breakup story.

[rewinn]

Does anybody have any idea why Vaarsuvius is keeping secret from the rest of the order that their entire mission is based on a false premise, since the gates are hiding, not an angry Snarl about to burst free, but an entire new universe? Shouldn't they know that they're operating under false assumptions?

(Yes, I know. The answer to most such questions is that the story is supposed to last a long time. But is there an in-character reason?)

At times, V's very high Intelligence seems to be outweighed by a rather low Wisdom.

This is actually important to a lot of Heroic Novels.

[BaronOfHell]

I can easily follow V on this one. There's little point in informing them about any given information, no matter how important, if hir cannot validate it. Hir cannot validate it due to the disbelief regarding blackwing.

The only way they could believe it then would be through thrust, while still disthrusting the source of the information.
So either V's companion would be more stupid than I think V assumes, or V's companions would not believe V anyway.


If so, then it's time, now that a little bird told Roy where Vaarsuvius is.

Already did. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0809.html


Um, no, where on earth did you get that idea? There's no indication of that in the comic.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0693.html


V didn't pull a complete 180. He's still following the old habit of assuming that if he can't figure it out, his companions are certainly too dumb.

Um, no, where on earth did you get that idea? There's no indication of that in the comic.

[LuPuWei]

I think V would also be hesitant to tell the OotS because of the circumstances under which he recieved the information. So far, they haven't (on-panel) really questioned him or O-Chul about the nature of his confrontation with Xykon and V has chosen to be very close mouthed about the soul-selling. He may just be worried about bringing the issue under scrutiny again...

[Peelee]

I'm with BaronOfHell on this one. This (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0693.html) strip has V explicitly stating his reasons. And the rest of the party is still not accustomed to Blackwing, as they seem to believe Blacking is not V's familiar, but just some bird that follows him around, with some sort of a spell cast on it so it can relay messages. They don't see Blacking as V's familiar, they just see a bird that hangs out around him.

[Kish]

If that's the case, then V is insane, because the fate of the world counts for a bit more than the sensitive feelings of an individual raven ... :smallannoyed:
It's not about sensitive feelings. It's about Vaarsuvius not believing the Order will believe him/her if s/he says "I have this information from the raven you are all flatly refusing to believe exists."

And since Roy continues to find ways to not believe Blackwing exists even while acting on the information Blackwing has told him, whether it's time for Vaarsuvius to attempt to convince Roy of what Blackwing saw or not, Blackwing having told Roy about Vaarsuvius being banished to another dimension doesn't make a difference.

[FrankNorman]

Folks, something I should point out here:

Just because Blackwing reports that he saw what looked like a planet seen from high orbit, doesn't mean that's what is really there.
If the rifts are rifts in the fabric of reality, not dimensional doors or somesuch, some exotic effects, such as light from somewhere else being sent around by something akin to gravitational lensing, are possible.

[Peelee]

Folks, something I should point out here:

Just because Blackwing reports that he saw what looked like a planet seen from high orbit, doesn't mean that's what is really there.
If the rifts are rifts in the fabric of reality, not dimensional doors or somesuch, some exotic effects, such as light from somewhere else being sent around by something akin to gravitational lensing, are possible.

Completely true, but I saw the question as "Why hasn't V reported to the party what Blackwing saw," and did not address any importance, meaning, or significance what Blackwing saw may or may not have had. Much like someone telling not telling a dream to a friend - the reasons for not telling the dream to the friend and whatever the dream may have meant are two completely different things.

Just 'splainin' my answer there

[Bulldog Psion]

I'm with BaronOfHell on this one. This (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0693.html) strip has V explicitly stating his reasons. And the rest of the party is still not accustomed to Blackwing, as they seem to believe Blacking is not V's familiar, but just some bird that follows him around, with some sort of a spell cast on it so it can relay messages. They don't see Blacking as V's familiar, they just see a bird that hangs out around him.

That's true, but who cares about the stupid bird? This is a potentially vital piece of information. Why not just say "I looked into the rift in Azure City and it looked like there was a world in there and not the Snarl. I don't know what it means. Any ideas?"

There. Problem solved. No mention of Blackwing to cause the other party members to doubt the tale, etc. Not telling them is stupidity -- or insanity -- of the highest order. Mentioning Blackwing is totally superfluous to conveying the basic information that V has learned.

[Leecros]

Then they would all look at each other, shrug confusedly, and continue with what they were doing, because there isn't much that they can really do about it outside of what they're doing now.

Regardless, all in all, it doesn't matter what's in the gate. The OotS's first objective is to stop Xykon. Dealing with the Gates and what's in the gates is an issue for after they destroy the big scenery chewing villain who is more than happy to kill hundreds for fun.

Will the issue show up in the future before the end of the strip or the death of Xykon? Of course it will, but it's easy to make that deduction looking in. At which time, i'm sure V will divulge her information, but the big issue for the OotS right now is how to stop Team Evil.

How does a perceived planet inside of a rift help stop Team Evil?
To put it simply, it doesn't.

[Bulldog Psion]

Knowledge = power. Lack of knowledge = weakness.

True, we don't know what use this knowledge might have. But V is weakening the position of his team, overall, by keeping them in the dark -- pointlessly -- about a central fact of their quest.

What if V is killed before telling anyone about the world within the rift, and the information turns out to be vitally useful? You say "How does a perceived planet in the Rift help to stop Team Evil? It doesn't." But that, IMO, is much more than we know. How do we know it doesn't have a bearing on how to stop Team Evil?

I still maintain that the elf is being completely idiotic on this point.

[Vahir]

It's earth. The planet is earth, and there's no snarl, the gods just wanted to trap earth for some reason.




(I made an account just to say that)

[Gift Jeraff]

DStP commentary explicitly says it's not our Earth.

[Cirrylius]

It's earth. The planet is earth, and there's no snarl, the gods just wanted to trap earth for some reason.


I feel a Discworld/Roundworld parallel coming on eventually.

[Toofey]

Folks, something I should point out here:

Just because Blackwing reports that he saw what looked like a planet seen from high orbit, doesn't mean that's what is really there.
If the rifts are rifts in the fabric of reality, not dimensional doors or somesuch, some exotic effects, such as light from somewhere else being sent around by something akin to gravitational lensing, are possible.


It was shown in the comic. We, the audience, don't need to take blackwings report of there being a planet, because we saw it ourselves. I forget the number ... sorry.

[Leecros]

Knowledge = power. Lack of knowledge = weakness.
Only in situational circumstances. Knowing the grass is green is a completely irreverent piece of information that is, essentially, useless unless you're fighting some creature that can't step on grass and is colorblind.


True, we don't know what use this knowledge might have. But V is weakening the position of his team, overall, by keeping them in the dark -- pointlessly -- about a central fact of their quest.
WE know it's a central fact about their quest because WE know it's a story and it would have been brought up without a reason. V has no such privilege. It would be a curiosity to them, but as i said, it's rather irreverent when it comes to defeating Xykon. I'm sure when it comes up V will reveal what she knows, but until then it's just a curiosity. If my adventurers that i DM for paid attention to every curiosity i throw at them, they would never get around to completing the campaign.


What if V is killed before telling anyone about the world within the rift, and the information turns out to be vitally useful?
What if an asteroid falls on Team Evil, destroying Xykon, Redcloak, and the Phylactery?

What if Anakin never became a Jedi?

What if Bilbo killed Smeagol?

I could do this all day, the point is, there's no point is exploring different possibilities until they actually happen. If V is killed before telling anyone, then we can discuss how foolish it was for her to do what she did.


You say "How does a perceived planet in the Rift help to stop Team Evil? It doesn't." But that, IMO, is much more than we know. How do we know it doesn't have a bearing on how to stop Team Evil?

It doesn't matter what WE know. I'm not trying to put out some theory, it's what V knows and what V thinks that matters. All V knows right now is that there's some perceived planet* in the rift. all that revealing the information is going to cause is a lot of confusion and a continuance towards their ultimate objective of defeating Xykon and until the information becomes relevant or they meet someone who may know more about the gates and the rifts, revealing the information would accomplish nothing.






*(i say perceived because i don't feel like getting into a discussion as to what it may be)

[Jay R]

Then they would all look at each other, shrug confusedly, and continue with what they were doing, because there isn't much that they can really do about it outside of what they're doing now.

Except possibly go to the Oracle to find out if there really is still a Snarl back there that Xykon could use to gain power.


Regardless, all in all, it doesn't matter what's in the gate. The OotS's first objective is to stop Xykon. Dealing with the Gates and what's in the gates is an issue for after they destroy the big scenery chewing villain who is more than happy to kill hundreds for fun.

Simply untrue. They aren't trying to destroy Xykon right now; they are trying to deal with Girard's Gate. That has value only if there is still a Snarl to control. If they knew that there were no longer a Snarl to control, they could ignore the Gates and focus on Xykon directly.


How does a perceived planet inside of a rift help stop Team Evil?
To put it simply, it doesn't.

Everything they're doing is based on the idea that the Gates contain a Snarl's prison, and that the worst evil Xykon could do is to control that Snarl.

Either this is a prison containing a malevolent Snarl that Xykon could use to gain great power or it isn't. If it isn't, then they are giving Xykon extra time to continue his mass murder sprees by trying to find a now-insignificant gate.

[Bulldog Psion]

Agreed, Jay R. There's no real way that the information can't be important to their quest at some point. If the Gates are superfluous, then the best thing they could do, actually, is go off on a bunch of side quests, let Xykon pursue the useless gates, and use the time to build up their levels as much as possible so that they can get strong enough to hunt down the lich and kill him.

IMO, of course.

[Leecros]

Except possibly go to the Oracle to find out if there really is still a Snarl back there that Xykon could use to gain power.
Except that The Oracle is on a completely different continent from where the OotS is and where they believe Xykon will show up next.




Simply untrue. They aren't trying to destroy Xykon right now; they are trying to deal with Girard's Gate. That has value only if there is still a Snarl to control. If they knew that there were no longer a Snarl to control, they could ignore the Gates and focus on Xykon directly.
Um...the entire reason they're going to Girard's gate is to warn it's guardians about Xykon (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0670.html)(panel 9) so they can stop him there. Because they KNOW he'll show up there. I'm not entirely sure what you mean by 'deal with the gate' since there's nothing the OotS want to do with the gate outside of protect it....and you know, try to fix them afterwards.




Everything they're doing is based on the idea that the Gates contain a Snarl's prison, and that the worst evil Xykon could do is to control that Snarl.

Either this is a prison containing a malevolent Snarl that Xykon could use to gain great power or it isn't. If it isn't, then they are giving Xykon extra time to continue his mass murder sprees by trying to find a now-insignificant gate.

Regardless of whether it's important or not. They know Team Evil thinks the gates are important and they know...well, the oracle said, where team evil will strike next. Running around and blindly searching for something is stupid if you know almost exactly where they will be in the near future.




Agreed, Jay R. There's no real way that the information can't be important to their quest at some point. If the Gates are superfluous, then the best thing they could do, actually, is go off on a bunch of side quests, let Xykon pursue the useless gates, and use the time to build up their levels as much as possible so that they can get strong enough to hunt down the lich and kill him.

So basically what Xykon suggested to Roy which he already refused to do for good reason (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0442.html)?

[BaronOfHell]

Folks, something I should point out here:

Just because Blackwing reports that he saw what looked like a planet seen from high orbit, doesn't mean that's what is really there.

It was shown in the comic. We, the audience, don't need to take blackwings report of there being a planet, because we saw it ourselves. I forget the number ... sorry.

I believe FrankNorman is making a note of the difference of an observation and a conclusion.

All we have is an observation, we've observed a planet within the rift.

That doesn't mean the otherwise obvious conclusion, there's a planet within the rift, is correct.


Why not just say "I looked into the rift in Azure City and it looked like there was a world in there and not the Snarl. I don't know what it means. Any ideas?"
V could do that. I personally would think it'd be a bad idea. I think we all agree on the gates are of enormeous importance. Not revealing information of how observations were made could lead to the utter failure of the team. If we just focus on your solution, it also contributes the information that it's possible to look into the gates without being unmade. That's a very dangerous tidbit of false information to willingly give to the only people who, in my opinion, seems to actively try to hinder the possible unmaking of an entire world (which I imagine includes the afterlives, outer realms, etc. as well).


What if V is killed before telling anyone about the world within the rift, and the information turns out to be vitally useful?
As far as I know, the validity of information does not differentiate due to the delivers state of health.

In all honesty though, this is how I think V sees it. I agree V needs to share this information and it's very risky to go through mortal danger (such as the battle against the LG) without having shared this information. It still needs to be done in a way that convinces the party, though. Otherwise it makes absolutely no difference.

It's too bad it's not Elan with this information, at least he could use his charisma and sense of drama to argue that as a main character, any information he has is important to the plot.


Except possibly go to the Oracle to find out if there really is still a Snarl back there that Xykon could use to gain power.
The oracle gains his power from the Gods and the Gods have a black out on this kind of information.

[Howler Dagger]

Folks, something I should point out here:

Just because Blackwing reports that he saw what looked like a planet seen from high orbit, doesn't mean that's what is really there.
If the rifts are rifts in the fabric of reality, not dimensional doors or somesuch, some exotic effects, such as light from somewhere else being sent around by something akin to gravitational lensing, are possible.

And haley isnt a half-celestial, but that doesnt mean people at giantitp wont tak about it. :smallwink:

Anyway, the reason xe isnt telling them is, as V has ALREADY SAID, they wont trust it coming from the bird they dont want to acknowledge the existence of.

[Boogastreehouse]

Knowledge = power. Lack of knowledge = weakness.

I'd like to introduce you to :elan:

The less he understands, the more useful he is. He has "Ignorance" as a class power source. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0558.html)

(I know that's a joke)

[Bulldog Psion]

As far as I know, the validity of information does not differentiate due to the delivers state of health.


True, but an inert corpse has a very hard time communicating something which was unwisely kept secret until then. Are you suggesting that V can tell the other party members about the world in the rift when he's dead? :smallconfused:

[ORione]

True, but an inert corpse has a very hard time communicating something which was unwisely kept secret until then. Are you suggesting that V can tell the other party members about the world in the rift when he's dead? :smallconfused:

No, but with Durkon's help, he could tell them after he comes back to life.


Another argument against going back to the oracle: the oracle doesn't like the Order, and Roy now knows it.

[BaronOfHell]

True, but an inert corpse has a very hard time communicating something which was unwisely kept secret until then. Are you suggesting that V can tell the other party members about the world in the rift when he's dead? :smallconfused:

I think you did not understand my point. I have said what I wanted to say in this thread, so please forgive me for not continueing this subject past this post.

Regarding this post, though, I'll try with an analogy that might explain my point better. I think the 2012 doomsday prophecy interpretation is quite common knowledge, and I don't think it falls within the banned religious discussion rule. Therefore I'll use this case as my analogy.

The 2012 doomsday prophecy might be right, it might be wrong. We can of course not know for sure, because we don't know for sure what the future brings. However, the future is no different with, or without, the knowledge of this prophecy, and the likelyness of this prophecy to be true, is independent of the prophecy itself. As an example, gravity exists no matter if we acknowledges its existance and no matter if we can describe the way it works.
As such, unless V has a way to justify hir information, it's analogous equivalent to the maya's doomsday prophecy (or rather equivalent to the interpretation of said prophecy, but that's beside the point). It might be extremely important, but it's really not been made into a sufficient likely scenario that it's worthwhile to take seriously and invest ressources into. Likewise had the Maya's not made their prophecy (or had it not been interpretated as it has), then the world would not be any different (apart from the complication which arises through possible conflict over different beliefs, though I'm confident in V's head, such conflict would either not exist, or would not be percieved as something helpful at all).

So like I said to begin with. I can easily follow V on hir's decision, should it turn out she/he hasn't informed the group about blackwings observation yet.

[Bulldog Psion]

No, but with Durkon's help, he could tell them after he comes back to life.


Quite true. Let's hope his body isn't disintegrated, Xykon doesn't bind his soul, 10,000 gp worth of diamonds is on hand, and the information isn't needed between V's death and when Durkon manages to revive him. After all, Roy stayed dead for what, 7 months? 9 months?

A LOT can happen in 9 months, and if that information that V is deliberately hiding turns out to be vitally important during that period (or even a week during which V is dead and unable to communicate, or taken prisoner, etc.), then having concealed that information could potentially be disastrous.

I'm not saying V could never tell the others. I'm saying that V is engaged in a quite possibly fatal quest and is withholding crucial information from his teammates for no very good reason, thus tying availability of this knowledge to his own personal survival.

It's not like it's going to cause huge disruption if they know. But it could potentially cause huge disruption if they don't know.

[dps]

Does anybody have any idea why Vaarsuvius is keeping secret from the rest of the order that their entire mission is based on a false premise, since the gates are hiding, not an angry Snarl about to burst free, but an entire new universe? Shouldn't they know that they're operating under false assumptions?


Just because there is another world within the rift doesn't mean that there's not also an angry snarl in there waiting to break out and destroy the world the Order lives in.

[Bulldog Psion]

Just because there is another world within the rift doesn't mean that there's not also an angry snarl in there waiting to break out and destroy the world the Order lives in.

Also quite true, but it's still not a reason to hide quest-important information from the rest of the party. :smallfrown:

[eulmanis12]

V is a Man/Woman/It of quasi-science, he/she/it is not going to act until he/she/it has all the relevent data, and has sorted out a (semi)logical conclusion. Don't worry, V will share the information with the party at exactly the right time, too late to be good timing, but just early enough to avoid catastrophy. It is as certain as Belkar cutting off the kolbold's head, Elan employing a battering ram against the 4th wall, and Roy still being the smartest person in a given room.

Never doubt the power of plot people.

[veti]

That's true, but who cares about the stupid bird?

:vaarsuvius: does.

It's one of the more concrete signs that she's learned something and is trying to be a better person following the soul splice episode. She actually cares about Blackwing now, he's no longer just a class feature (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0154.html) to her.

Maybe if the information seemed relevant in some way, she might be a bit less dogmatic about it. But exactly how is the information "quest-important"?

[Leecros]

Quite true. Let's hope his body isn't disintegrated, Xykon doesn't bind his soul, 10,000 gp worth of diamonds is on hand, and the information isn't needed between V's death and when Durkon manages to revive him. After all, Roy stayed dead for what, 7 months? 9 months?

outside of body disintegration, Speak with Dead (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Speak_with_Dead) makes for a perfectly viable alternative. If the resources(or soul) weren't readily available.


Heck it's a low enough of a cleric spell level, if Durkon can't cast it...someone can.

[SPoD]

Why not just say "I looked into the rift in Azure City and it looked like there was a world in there and not the Snarl. I don't know what it means. Any ideas?"


Why not just say "I looked into the rift in Azure City and it looked like there was a world in there and not the Snarl. I don't know what it means. Any ideas?"


I don't know what it means.

If you don't understand why Vaarsuvius is having trouble making the above statement, I suggest you reread the story arc where he/she sells his/her soul to the forces of Evil so that he/she can be the one to save the day.

Pride--particularly about his/her intellect--is V's fatal flaw, and pride tells him/her not to admit to anyone that he/she doesn't know or understand something. The potential importance of that information makes it more likely that V will wait until he/she understands it before sharing, not less likely, because to do otherwise would be to admit ignorance when it mattered the most. You can't expect characters with deep personality flaws to rise above them on the spot just because, "It's important this time." The whole point of most stories is to show how and why a character changes their ways, and in this story, V has to share camera time with five other principles and a host of minor characters.

In other words, yes, it IS foolish for V to be doing what he/she is doing, but it is entirely within his/her established personality to be doing it. The fact that it is foolish is likely to be explored later in a way that furthers V's slow drift away from the path of Pride. Either the info will come out another way and V will realize he/she was being stupid, or V will realize he/she is being stupid and divulge it at a critical moment, saving the team in the process as a reward for his character growth. Either way, the time for that scene won't be right until the plot turns in such a way that the information is relevant.

[Jay R]

I realize that I haven't explicitly mentioned a connection that is important to my question.

Everything that the Order knows about the Snarl, and thus about their mission, has come from a story told by Shojo, a known skillful liar.

The first time it is possible to verify any of this information, it turns out to not match reality.

Yet, they are continuing to act on the information.

Yes, of course, I agree that if we still believe that there is nothing in there except a malevolent Snarl with which Xykon could use to threaten even more people than the ones he's currently mass-murdering, then we need to defend the gates more than we need to stop his current crimes.

But is it true? We're sacrificing a lot of people and letting Xykon do whatever he wants, just so we can get to the gate first and warn somebody whose entire life is dedicated to defending the gate that the gate needs to be defended, based on information that is, at best, misleading.

Wouldn't it be a good idea to try to find out?

The only solid evidence that Girard's Gate is still relevant is that Elan stumbled over the information, so it must be the plot.

[Leecros]

But is it true? We're sacrificing a lot of people and letting Xykon do whatever he wants, just so we can get to the gate first and warn somebody whose entire life is dedicated to defending the gate that the gate needs to be defended, based on information that is, at best, misleading.

Wouldn't it be a good idea to try to find out?


Regardless of whether it's true or not, the best thing they can do is still to go to Girards gate and help out the guardians to protect the gate from Xykon. Not only do they know that Xykon will be attacking there at some point in the very near future, but they will also have the help of the gate guardians in taking him down, which in the past have always proved quite powerful even to one such as Xykon.

Yes, they could go and try to find out more information on the gates, but it would require weeks if not more of traveling and looking for the information and it would probably ultimately prove fruitless or turn them towards a gate anyway since the information on it is so scattered. So not only would they have to hunt the information down for months and months which may prove fruitless, they would also lose their best chance at taking down Xykon so far. If they stop Xykon at Girards Gate, what's actually inside of the rift is a purely academic issue and they would probably reach the same conclusion if V presented the information she knows(and they believed her)

[Aurenthal]

Let me add a detail here...
V is in another plane, and the only one that could plane shift there is Durkon, right know. Also, they still don't know where she is, that is most likely going to be resolved soon (in comic time). So they need the following spells prepared:

Sending, wich may fail (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/sending.htm)
At least two plane shifts: one to the other plane, and from the other plane
And luck, so the sending arrives precisely, and both plane shifts arrive close enough of their intended location


Just my two cents...

[Denamort]

I think, as others have said, that the fact that there may be a world inside the rifts is intrascendental at the moment. The only reason we know is important is because we watch the tale from the outside. But whether there is or not a Snarl in the Gates doesn't matter at all.

Let's just assume the Gates hold nothing, and the ritual Red Cloak and X want to do will be useless. The best curse of action is still going to Girard's Gate. If they don't go to Girard's Gate this is what could happen: Xykon arrives by surprise, because Girard suspected nothing, kills everyone. RC and X, or Tsukiko and X try the ritual, it fails. Xykon saids "What a waste of time", blows RC to the stratosphere and keeps going with his army of undead to kill people for fun. I know, this is just a guess. Girard may have spies that told him X was coming. Or he may not know, but be prepared anyway. All scenarios are valid. But this is the "worst case", wich is what the Order has to assume will happen. They can't just hope Girard manages to defeat Xykon.
And what did the Order gain by not going to Girard's Gate? Nothing. They have no means to investigate the Rifts, no information on who could help them. The Oracle, as someone said, is blocked by the Gods from knowing anything about the Snarl. Even if they find someone who can help them, I think "There isn't a God-Killing abomination in the rifts" ranks below "An Epic Lich, probably the most powerfull Sorcerer on the world is conquering the world, one nation at the Time" in the list of pressing matters.
On the other hand, if they do go to Windy Canyion, they can warn Girard. He than can prepare for the great battle. Now Girard has time to bolster his defenses and 6 extra 15+ lvl PC to help him. This increases his chances of defeating X. They kill him and then V say "Oh, by the way, did you know there isn't a Snarl in the Gates after all?". The best chance of defeating Xykon is with the help of Girard, and that's what matters. After Xykon si defeated they can work on finding out what is within the Gates. This will help Azurite economy restart when they conquer Azure City back.
So, no matter what's in the Gates, the Order should still try to find Girard.

Now someone could argue: "Fine, no matter what they still have to find Girard. Why can't V tell them now so they know and sort it out later?"

Several possible reasons:
1) He doesn't think is important enough to trouble his friends with that knowledge.
2) He thinks giving them this knowledge may distract them from the ultimate goal of defeating Xykon or may cause the Order to question if they should follow the quest at all.
3) He thinks no member of the Order could have more knowledge than him, so they wouldn't be of any help in figuring out what is in the rifts.
4) He doesn't want to admit that he has no idea what they are dealing whit. Also, he probably enjoys being the "Keeper of Knowledge" an archetypical wizard role.
5) He is wating for them to reach Girard to ask him about it.
6) He just hasn't found the time to do it, with all the runing, and figthing, and searchin, nor a safe place where he fills he could talk about the Gates without that knowledge falling into the wrong ears.
7) He doesn't think the Order will trust Blackwings judgment, or they will dismiss it. This is what V said to Blackwing when he asked about it, but it sound like an excuse to me.

[Bulldog Psion]

Yes, the possibility that V is keeping quiet because he thinks that the information is so important and secret that only a wizard should know about it, reminds me of the Lord of the Rings, where "old men and masters of lore" were said to "blanch and fall silent" when people asked about Cirith Ungol.

Oh yes, let's keep our lips shut and not warn anyone about the ancient, destructive spirit of hunger in the shape of a spider that is lurking in the pass .... :smallbiggrin: :smalleek:

[Shhalahr Windrider]

I realize that I haven't explicitly mentioned a connection that is important to my question.

Everything that the Order knows about the Snarl, and thus about their mission, has come from a story told by Shojo, a known skillful liar.
Yeah Shojo is the only one that ever gave them any information about the gate. Not like a non-liar paladin ever told them about where the Azure City Gate was. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0411.html)

[Occasional Sage]

I can easily follow V on this one. There's little point in informing them about any given information, no matter how important, if hir cannot validate it. Hir cannot validate it due to the disbelief regarding blackwing.




So like I said to begin with. I can easily follow V on hir's decision, should it turn out she/he hasn't informed the group about blackwings observation yet.


I believe the gender-neutral word you want is "zhe", or "xe". Same pronunciation either way it's spelled.

[Gift Jeraff]

What is wrong with she/he? If someone said that in real life, it'd be fine, but if you said zhe or xe you'd probably get weird looks.

[Peelee]

I believe the gender-neutral word you want is "zhe", or "xe". Same pronunciation either way it's spelled.

Ahhhh. I see the the misunderstanding. See, "zhe" and "xe" (along with their close cousin, "hir") look incredibly stupid and make me want to slap everyone who uses them until they stop abusing the English language.

Or what Gift Jeraff said. That probably comes off as much less rage-y.

[Occasional Sage]

What is wrong with she/he? If someone said that in real life, it'd be fine, but if you said zhe or xe you'd probably get weird looks.

Nothing. The repeated use of "hir" suggests that the Baron would prefer to use a single word though.

I found them odd as well originally Peelee, but I know enough genderqueer folks that they've become reasonably commonplace for me, whether there is an inherent abuse of language or not.

[Peelee]

I found them odd as well originally Peelee, but I know enough genderqueer folks that they've become reasonably commonplace for me, whether there is an inherent abuse of language or not.

Ahhhh. I've just seen enough of the internet to become almost numbed to such things, in terms of trying to get people to stop, but it's still nice to be able to rant every once in a while. Thanks!

EDIT: I think I should point out that I just use the pronoun for the gender I believe V to be. Which probably lets me be more annoyed than if I did go the ambiguous route... I'm sure at some point "hir" and "xe" would be far more preferable to constantly writing "him/her" and the like. Would probably take a while, though.

[Occasional Sage]

Ahhhh. I've just seen enough of the internet to become almost numbed to such things, in terms of trying to get people to stop, but it's still nice to be able to rant every once in a while. Thanks!

EDIT: I think I should point out that I just use the pronoun for the gender I believe V to be. Which probably lets me be more annoyed than if I did go the ambiguous route... I'm sure at some point "hir" and "xe" would be far more preferable to constantly writing "him/her" and the like. Would probably take a while, though.

Yeah, I'm normally a hardliner when it comes to "proper" English. This set of pronouns detours around that part of my brain though, through the equal-opportunity section. By which I mean: don't stress the rant, I understand!

[Dr.Epic]

I got 5 gp it's a Twilight Zone twist ending. Like, they're all toys trapped in a giant bucket, and that noise is just a kid ringing a bell.:smallwink:

[Quackenbush]

V will tell them when she's good and ready. Or maybe she'll go on another soul-splice adventure via the IFCC. No matter what, she's not going to be quickly forthcoming with information that, in the eyes of the others, has no credible source.

[Analytica]

The impression I got was that the Snarl certainly is exactly the threat it seems to be. Only... maybe everything it eats actually ends up in a new world instead, that it builds inside itself. Which might conceivably be harmed by closing the gates, perhaps. So the knowledge might be completely irrelevant to the objective of saving the OOTS-verse, but may be relevant with regards to avoiding collateral damage to the other world. V is beginning to care about that sort of thing, but it's still a new thing to them. They're mulling over it, trying to decide if the fate of the Snarl's belly-dimension is important enough to have the rest of the Order potentially worrying about it too, but since it - probably - doesn't impact their mission; no need to tell the less intellectually gifted (yes, arrogance) about it at this point.