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The Boz
2011-12-13, 06:19 PM
How the hell does this ability work? What is the Strength ratio on the extra attacks? Is there an attack penalty? Is it full attack only? What happens when dual wielding? What happens when wielding a two-handed weapon? Do you need to be unarmed? Do you provoke attacks of opportunity because it's basically unarmed attack? What's the crit chance and multiplier? What is the damage type? Can it be used while performing maneuvers?

Stone Heart
2011-12-13, 08:12 PM
They are natural attacks, you treat them as you would treat any creatures claw attacks. I don't see any reason to treat it any differently. Am I missing something here?

Edit: Natural attack rules (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/universal-monster-rules#TOC-Natural-Attacks)

Only difference I've noticed is that they do more damage than normal. (1d6 instead of 1d4)

The Boz
2011-12-14, 01:37 PM
So if a character is already wielding a giant axe, for example, his full attack would be the axe chop and two secondary attacks with 1d6 bludgeoning or slashing damage at a -5 penalty and half strength, with a 20, x2 crit? Is the PC considered proficient with this attack? If not, is there an attack of opportunity?

DrDeth
2011-12-14, 02:06 PM
No. He gains claws at the end of his hands, thus he can attack either with those claws or weapon(s) held in those hands. They are primary attacks, full BAB and STR. They are not in addition to other attacks made with the Bbns hands. I suppose if the Bbn had a bite there might be a issue which is primary and which is secondary.

The Boz
2011-12-14, 02:16 PM
Really? That's rather useless...
I'm asking because this wording here:

Creatures with natural attacks and attacks made with weapons can use both as part of a full attack action (although often a creature must forgo one natural attack for each weapon clutched in that limb, be it a claw, tentacle, or slam). Such creatures attack with their weapons normally but treat all of their available natural attacks as secondary attacks during that attack, regardless of the attack’s original type.
is rather ambiguous. Especially the italicized part. Often? The rage power doesn't mention losing the attacks if you're wielding.

stack
2011-12-14, 02:40 PM
Not terribly ambiguous. If you two-hand a weapon, you can't use the claw attacks of those hands. If you attack with a one-handed weapon, then you lose the one claw attack, the one from that hand. If your race has extra arms, I suppose you could two-hand a weapon and make the two claw attacks, using the unclawed hands for the weapon and taking a -5 to the claw attacks.

Also, claws and bite are both primary attacks by default, so unless specified otherwise they get full AB and STR bonus. A claw/claw/bite routine at full AB is pretty nasty at low levels, so no, it's not useless at all.

The Boz
2011-12-14, 03:00 PM
Also, claws and bite are both primary attacks by default, so unless specified otherwise they get full AB and STR bonus. A claw/claw/bite routine at full AB is pretty nasty at low levels, so no, it's not useless at all.

But the power becomes useless as early as level 6. The Animal Fury power that adds a bite does so as a Secondary weapon, and it doesn't actually help the quality of this power, since it is compatible with weapons and has no special interaction. And you can't really focus these natural attacks because you'll only ever get three of them, the fourth (gore) is locked out, being in the Fiend line. At best, you'll have two primary claws with 1d8 and an x3 critical, and a secondary 1d4 bite.
At this point, the power seems like feat tax for pounce.

stack
2011-12-14, 03:18 PM
At level 6 you have less base damage, but higher accuracy than with weapons. Lacking ways to get more natural attacks is a deficiency though. At least an alchemist with feral mutagen gets a primary bite. Forcing the bite attack rage power to be secondary seems contrary to most PF natural attack rules and hurts the style. I would house-rule it as a normal bite attack, but that's just me.

Ultimately, it's not optimal at mid to high levels, but does provide a particular flavor.

And is a tax for pounce.:smallfrown:

The Gilded Duke
2011-12-14, 03:20 PM
Pick up Improved Unarmed Strike, Unarmed Strikes can count as natural weapons. Do your full attack routine with Unarmed Strike, then Claw, Claw, Bite as secondary weapons. Also there are other ways to pick up additional natural attacks outside of barbarian if you want to do some multiclassing. And the style feats can be applied to natural weapons if you take the right feats.