(PF) Best Unarmored Fighter = Eldritch Knight?

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

In a lot of fantasy settings (novels, movies, etc.) theres usually an unarmored guy who is a badass, and manages to contribute, without dying, without armor.

In 3.5/PF, this is notoriously difficult to pull off. There is no reason for a martial character to wear NO armor, unless their DEX is nearing epic levels.

I increasingly see the Eldritch Knight as the only real method to maintain decent combat ability without wearing armor. Spells can easily make up for said lack of armor, via obvious methods such as Mage Armor, Shield, Mirror Image, etc. and no doubt numerous other, less obvious methods exist.

In any case, I am wondering if I am correct in this, or if I've missed something.

Im looking forward to what you all have to say about this!

[Gnaeus]

Given the various Alternate Class Features, It is possible to make a monk in PF that doesn't suck utterly.

If you mean wearing armor as actual armor, Synthesist summoner can be a melee monster without wearing armor (although he is wearing his eidolon...)

[Mantarni]

The Kensai (a Magus archetype) is not proficient with armor or shields, and is a bloody crit factory from a quick look at it. They don't seem to have any armor boosting stuff though, so its probably dex/magic gear dependent.

Edit: Skipped that part accidently, Kensai gets Canny Defense and can add Int to AC. Since Int is a good part of their build and they have spells too, their AC is a lot more viable.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

Given the various Alternate Class Features, It is possible to make a monk in PF that doesn't suck utterly.

If you mean wearing armor as actual armor, Synthesist summoner can be a melee monster without wearing armor (although he is wearing his eidolon...)

right. Monk. I don't object to the monk on a basis of power and cohesion, merely on flavor. I didn't even consider monk an alternative. Sadly, I still dont.

as for a synthesist summoner using its eidolon... sure, viable. but the eidelon is the real fighting force there. I was referring mostly to the actual character, in a more... traditional sense. :)

[imneuromancer]

I actually played a monk in PF, and after a few levels of ironing out the kinks, I was actually pretty effective. I ended up being the party "tank" to a bunch of arcane casters. Worked out better than expected, actually.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

I actually played a monk in PF, and after a few levels of ironing out the kinks, I was actually pretty effective. I ended up being the party "tank" to a bunch of arcane casters. Worked out better than expected, actually.

again, I know monks are viable in PF... I merely object to them flavor wise. You are correct though, they are unarmored and viable now.

However... is the BEST unarmored fighter an Eldritch Knight?

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

The Kensai (a Magus archetype) is not proficient with armor or shields, and is a bloody crit factory from a quick look at it. They don't seem to have any armor boosting stuff though, so its probably dex/magic gear dependent.

Edit: Skipped that part accidently, Kensai gets Canny Defense and can add Int to AC. Since Int is a good part of their build and they have spells too, their AC is a lot more viable.

I hadn't looked at the Kensai archetype but in passing. I guess I'll take another gander at it.

[stack]

As all the ultimate combat magus archetypes, the magus is weak compared to the base class. Hitting them with reduced spellcasting AND taking away spell recall is just too much.

That said, they'll do what you want.

[Psyren]

Psychic Fist is the best, if you allow psionics. Go monk, psywar, then use the version that advances Psywar manifesting.

[Tyndmyr]

In a lot of fantasy settings (novels, movies, etc.) theres usually an unarmored guy who is a badass, and manages to contribute, without dying, without armor.

In 3.5/PF, this is notoriously difficult to pull off. There is no reason for a martial character to wear NO armor, unless their DEX is nearing epic levels.

I increasingly see the Eldritch Knight as the only real method to maintain decent combat ability without wearing armor. Spells can easily make up for said lack of armor, via obvious methods such as Mage Armor, Shield, Mirror Image, etc. and no doubt numerous other, less obvious methods exist.

In any case, I am wondering if I am correct in this, or if I've missed something.

Im looking forward to what you all have to say about this!

EK is the more magical of the PF core gish PrCs. Dragon Disciple is the more melee based one. Having D12s, bonus con and natural armor makes the lack of regular armor somewhat less problematic. It's a *lot* better than the 3.5 version, and competitive with EK overall.

[hushblade]

How about an unarmed swordsage? wis to AC certainly makes it more viable.

[CTrees]

Everything so far has been about Gishes (or 3.5 material) except the monk, and even then... the prefered PF monk these days seems to be Qiqong+Hungry Ghost, which is essentially a gish, itself. In the spirit of including at least SOMETHING non-magical/psionic, there's Free Hand Fighter + Dervish Dance -> Duelist. That, at least, is reasonably competent and is capped at light armor for maximum effectiveness (also has big incentives to go for huge Dex, making wearing the heavier light armors less inviting until Celestial Armor comes online. *shrug* It's something. It's also a high dex, high int fighter, which has a lot of personal appeal to me, for reasons I don't entirely understand.

For PF gishes, my favorites are Magus (no archetypes) and Synthesist Summoner. There's just... a little more class in either of those, than EK or DD. Plus, single classed, in a system which gives more bonuses to that.

[Psyren]

EK is an okay gish, but as far as going unarmored it offers you no support there beyond the spells themselves. Getting hit with a dispel or disjunction will wreak havoc with your defense.

Dragon Disciple, Psychic Fist and Kensai Magus at least give you static bonuses while naked, which you can then augment with magic if you so choose.


How about an unarmed swordsage? wis to AC certainly makes it more viable.

1) We're assuming pure Pathfinder since the OP didn't say 3.P
2) If you want to get technical, Unarmed Swordsages need light armor for their bonus. (It's silly and likely an error but there it is.)

[ericgrau]

The problem is, what's better than a dragon disciple is a dragon disciple in full plate. With mage armor you have 4 AC which is not subject to magical enhancements. Instead of 9 plus enhancements. Shield is a waste of a turn. Etc.

A dex focused character could work. Like an arcane archer and/or eldritch knight archer. Otherwise you'd need some sort of finesse build that doesn't come with no damage and/or lots of low HD and/or lower attack bonus.

Or 10-11 AC from magical armor rather than 4. 3.5 has greater mage armor for 6, but besides that I dunno what to do. A monk's belt, mage armor (via casting, potions, or similar from bracers of armor or etc.) plus a monster race with a good wis and high natural armor also works at higher levels.

Pathfinder improved the duelist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/core-rulebook/duelist) so that could work and fit the theme well. True it also works in light armor, but some source of mage armor might at least come close to that. It takes a bit of MAD to get the AC but it has full BAB with bonus damage somewhat comparable to and stackable with strength damage. You might reasonably hit 7-8 AC that way plus some from dex if you use the finesse pre-req. For ability scores I might do 14 int, 12 wis, 12 str, dump cha, 12-14 con and the rest to dex (as much as possible). Then magic items to get a +2 int/dex/con and elf for another 2 int and dex (but -2 con).

[Gnaeus]

Or 10-11 AC from magical armor rather than 4. 3.5 has greater mage armor for 6, but besides that I dunno what to do. A monk's belt, mage armor (via casting, potions, or similar from bracers of armor or etc.) plus a monster race with a good wis and high natural armor also works at higher levels.

PF doesn't have Monk's Belt. Monk's Robe, which replaced it, specifically does not add wis to AC.

[CTrees]

Also, if you can take third party stuff, there's the Web of Steel feat (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/3rd-party-feats/super-genius-games/combat-feats/web-of-steel-combat), which would work great with Duelist. Honestly though... it feels a little overpowered. I think restricting it to "no armor," instead of "light or no armor" would be a lot more acceptable.

[ericgrau]

It's an armor bonus so it doesn't stack with armor anyway. It actually takes a very long time to catch up with regular armor; the only thing that makes up for it is that there's no dex limit. So with a dex focus your AC should catch up by level 6-8 and exceed the curve after that, only problem is your damage is a little behind.

[CTrees]

Er, hrm, yes. That's the problem with posting at work - divided attention means I miss some really obvious things, occassionally. In which case... having clauses regarding type of armor which may be worn are largely redundant. I suppose it's nice to be able to take the ol' armored kilt, enchant it with plenty of nice effect, and just have it's armor bonus overridden, but yeah.

[ericgrau]

Well armor would still be nice to have when you're flat-footed.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

yes, PF pure...

The way Im seeing it right now, is that there are alternatives... but none are really BETTER per se. Dragon Disciple is competitive, but not better. various monks, duelists, etc. are good... but they aren't "I'm a caster" good.

Im not really looking at it from a "whats my AC potential" but more as... can I not wear armor and but also not have a death wish? What do I bring to the table? how versatile am I, how much can I contribute?

I don't think you get much better than a full caster to answer those questions (as usual). And an Eldritch Knight (or Dragon Disciple) is an almost full caster, who can also hold his own in a fight.

So, as i see it... a fighter/mage type has got to be the best unarmored "fighter" option available.

[Psyren]

yes, PF pure...

The way Im seeing it right now, is that there are alternatives... but none are really BETTER per se. Dragon Disciple is competitive, but not better. various monks, duelists, etc. are good... but they aren't "I'm a caster" good.

Im not really looking at it from a "whats my AC potential" but more as... can I not wear armor and but also not have a death wish? What do I bring to the table? how versatile am I, how much can I contribute?

I don't think you get much better than a full caster to answer those questions (as usual). And an Eldritch Knight (or Dragon Disciple) is an almost full caster, who can also hold his own in a fight.

So, as i see it... a fighter/mage type has got to be the best unarmored "fighter" option available.

My problem with EK is that it's going to cost you two CL (one on entry, and one for the proficiencies, unless you enter as a 0 HD outsider.) In PF pure, that means you'll be 2 levels behind on your dispel protection. And once your buffs are dispelled, you are in for a world of hurt - that, or simply dropping the pointy stick and staying at range, in which case you are now a wizard that is 2 levels behind at everything else with little to show for it.

And the opportunity cost is much higher in PF, because staying pure wizard actually has benefits now.

I guess my question is; if you're going to be a primary caster, and rely exclusively on magical buffs to cover you in melee anyway, what benefit does waving a piece of metal around give you?

[ericgrau]

The way Im seeing it right now, is that there are alternatives... but none are really BETTER per se. Dragon Disciple is competitive, but not better. various monks, duelists, etc. are good... but they aren't "I'm a caster" good.
Then it's not a fighter anymore. A casting eldritch knight might be decent, or one that switches between fighting and casting, but you can't do both at the same time. Even after buffs he'll be worse off than just about anything else with armor, so there'll be no point to swinging your sword (EDIT: "waving around a piece of metal") 90% of the time.

[CTrees]

A casting eldritch knight might be decent, or one that switches between fighting and casting, but you can't do both at the same time.

*cough*magus*cough*

[ericgrau]

Also better in armor :P, though good gishes true.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

My problem with EK is that it's going to cost you two CL

Magical Knack trait. 2 CL difference? not anymore.

[jmelesky]

Magical Knack trait. 2 CL difference? not anymore.

That makes up for CL, but doesn't give you the additional spells per day, etc...

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

Then it's not a fighter anymore. A casting eldritch knight might be decent, or one that switches between fighting and casting, but you can't do both at the same time. Even after buffs he'll be worse off than just about anything else with armor, so there'll be no point to swinging your sword (EDIT: "waving around a piece of metal") 90% of the time.

I agree mostly. You can't do both at the same time as an EK, and even after buffs, yes, you will be worse off than someone WEARING armor. (point is to be the best NOT wearing armor though, if you recall). and true, an EK is probably better off as a ray specialist, using the EK BAB as compensation for the wizards. So optimized, you are correct, there would be no "waving a metal piece around".

But the point of EK is to give a wizard that option. To what degree that was successful or optimized is academic. The point is with fighter feats, BAB, etc, it can be done. IF you choose to do so, as an EK, you can wave a sharp pointy stick at someone and actually hit them, unlike a wizard. Like a wizard (with a proper build) you have 9th level spells. You CAN fight decently, and CAN cast as a level 18 wizard, if you so choose.

IS that not fighting smarter (i.e. magic) rather than harder? Though buffing yourself to fight better is admittedly a sub-par use of spells, does it still not make you a match for an appropriate encounter? include the spells you still have that you didn't use for buffing... the same as the level 18 wizard... Does that not make you the best unarmored fighter?

I find this discussion fascinating. thank you all for the thought provoking posts.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

That makes up for CL, but doesn't give you the additional spells per day, etc...

very true, but the poster I quoted and responded to referred only to CL, especially in the sense of having a lower CL, and getting your various buffs dispelled, due to said difference. So, in this SPECIFIC case, the additional spells per day increase is irrelevant... though i agree, it is important in general.

[ericgrau]

Ah then it seems you have a different goal and your goal is actually the DMG description of the EK: Chucking a spell one round and swinging a sword another. In which case the focus of your build is probably casting but with the backup option of a weapon. In that case you should keep your resources on the weapon side moderate. One shot melee tricks like spell storing weapons and so on will be very effective. You could grab a reach weapon to take advantage of attacks of opportunity even on rounds that you cast. It also partially lessens the need for defense. Draconic reservoir + selective spell to blast yourself and foes but not your allies can charge your weapon with energy damage. At 10 min/level it's good in dungeons but not wilderness. Melee touch spells like irresistible dance to take advantage of your good melee attack bonus and so-so defense. Not to mention the target provokes an attack of opportunity every round. Etc., etc. See, I'm synergizing melee with a casting focus rather than buffing out a melee focus with casting.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

Ah then it seems you have a different goal and your goal is actually the DMG description of the EK: Chucking a spell one round and swinging a sword another. In which case the focus of your build is probably casting but with the backup option of a weapon. In that case you should keep your resources on the weapon side moderate. One shot tricks like spell storing weapons and so on will be very effective. You could grab a reach weapon to take advantage of attacks of opportunity even on rounds that you cast. It also partially lessens the need for defense. Draconic reservoir + selective spell to blast yourself and foes but not your allies can charge your weapon with energy damage. At 10 min/level it's good in dungeons but not wilderness. Melee touch spells like irresistible dance to take advantage of your good melee attack bonus and so-so defense. Etc., etc.

what about a ranged EK? would that mesh more easily with ray spells and no armor? some feats would pull double duty: archery/rays, your lack of armor/defenses wouldn't be as important...

or does melee lend more versatility to the EK tactics?

[ericgrau]

That would be the easiest way to solve AC issues as it provides dex and often keeps you away from harm, yes. I assumed earlier if you wanted ranged you'd go arcane archer. It could work as an EK caster with ranged backup rather than a focused archer. In that case it might still be good to eventually get 3-4 levels of arcane archer for imbue arrow and elemental arrow. PF no longer has the elf requirement so you can decide on AA or no AA whenever you want.

It is a bit more feat intensive as rapid shot and usually precise shot are almost required even for halfway decent backup archery, and if you go AA it requires weapon focus on top of that.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

That would be the easiest way to solve AC issues as it provides dex and often keeps you away from harm, yes. I assumed earlier if you wanted ranged you'd go arcane archer. It could work as an EK caster with ranged backup rather than a focused archer. In that case it might still be good to eventually get 3-4 levels of arcane archer for imbue arrow and elemental arrow. PF no longer has the elf requirement so you can decide on AA or no AA whenever you want.

It is a bit more feat intensive as rapid shot and usually precise shot are almost required even for halfway decent backup archery, and if you go AA it requires weapon focus on top of that.

The problem I have with arcane archer is that it loses a lot of its flexibility (i.e. spells) for a some decent, but largely underwhelming class abilities. plus, the pre-reqs are harsh, and require a more martial bent.

a couple levels wouldn't be a bad idea, but an Eldritch knight gives much more to versatility than the arcane archer. Sadly, I find the arcane archer more flavorful and interesting as a class conceptually, but mechanically it falls short. As is, arcane archer should be able to be entered earlier, I feel the best entry (in my opinion, Ranger 4/wizard 4) is too late.

[ericgrau]

I'd do either wizard 1-2 or wizard 12 to enter, depending on your focus. Or perhaps martial-class 1 / wizard 5-6 / EK 3+.

[Blyte]

I played a barbarian in a campaign who for all intensive purposes was unarmored.. sure I wore armor but I shoulda just gone bare chested because my ac was garbage.

just go entirely offensive, charge, reckless abandon, lunge, rage etc. let your ability to end fights quickly with lots of violence be your damage control, and if fights get drawn out, you have that sweet barbarian HD+con to (hopefully) keep you up and running. Invulnerable rager DR also helps to soften blows, and if you go with a superstition build be certain to have the cleric put shield other on you, as this will greatly extend your longevity as well.

I opted for a greater overrun build and was able to knock down all the opposition then end my move 10 feet away from them, so they would have to double move to get to me.