Zombies zombies everywhere...

[Isaac Malus]

Hey there, I'm hoping to run a campaign soon for some friends. I'm not the most experienced player and this will be my first time running a game. I find myself in an interesting situation, I am completely unfamiliar with people controlling the undead. Especially more than a couple of them however I have one player interested in the Dread Necromancer class. How many undead can one control in comparison to Levels/HD. Do the spells such as summon undead and whatnot count towards this limit? I just need help figuring out the commander and his swarm of stupids. :eek:

[Coidzor]

Hey there, I'm hoping to run a campaign soon for some friends. I'm not the most experienced player and this will be my first time running a game. I find myself in an interesting situation, I am completely unfamiliar with people controlling the undead. Especially more than a couple of them however I have one player interested in the Dread Necromancer class. How many undead can one control in comparison to Levels/HD. Do the spells such as summon undead and whatnot count towards this limit? I just need help figuring out the commander and his swarm of stupids. :eek:

Summons will have nothing to do with his control pools.

As a Dread Necromancer he will have about two and a half of them, 1.5 from spells and 1 from class features. The first from class features, is exactly like a cleric's Rebuking/Command Undead Pool (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#turnOrRebukeUndead)where he can control 2 HD of undead per level he possesses in Dread Necromancer, however, the undead can have, at maximum HD+Turn Resistance equal to half his rebuking level, so it limits him to weaker undead, but those can clutter up the game a bit, but at the number of HD they'd have, they'd get off the field pretty quickly. The real risk with rebuking is taking control of something like shadows, wights, or allips that do ability or energy drain and/or spawn undead and/or are incorporeal.

There are some items he can use to increase his effective level for rebuking so he can control some nicer things, but aside from shadows, most of what he can control that would be relevant would end up at about 2-4 undead

The other is Animate Dead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/animateDead.htm), which, at 8th level, when Dread Necromancers get animate dead as a spell they can cast at all, lets the Dread Necromancer have a larger number of HD controlled than is normally possible. I believe it's something like 4*Caster Level+Charisma modifier = HD or 4*(CL+Cha) = HD.

He can, however, use the spell Command Undead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/commandUndead.htm) to get semi-permanent control of X number of undead for Y days, which is helpful for the 4 levels before he gets animate dead but after he gets 2nd level spells. Mindless undead don't get a saving throw, so this gives him auto-control of skeletons and zombies regardless of their HD, which can be used to steal minions from others (or by you to temporarily or otherwise wrest control of some of his minions) or just stretch out the number of minions he has by taking up the slack on his animate dead control pool.

One thing I recommend you to do is read over the revised necromancer's handbook to understand the tricks available to him


All in all, I very heartily recommend you limit him to about 2-4 undead that he'll use as combatants and just make him keep track of the HD used for undead vehicles/porters.

[Isaac Malus]

Really that few? It's strange when we were looking through some of the threads here about it many seemed to suggest hordes of undead being at a DN's disposal. With that there were things about controlling undead great golden wyrms..

[Tvtyrant]

You can always take control of vampires or undead with rebuking abilities and make a control pyramid. They aren't going to be as strong, but you can get way over the cap that way.

[Isaac Malus]

Oh really? Is that how that works? Okay because so many make it seem as though it's just *Bam* you have an army at your hands. Some threads can be misleading I see :smallfrown:

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

You CAN have hordes of undead... it isnt recommended for actual play though, because it slows down the game to the point where your players (and you) will think the temperature is somehow nearing absolute zero. Nevermind that you can't feel the cold.

Point is, the more you roll the dice (for minions, cohorts, undead followers, etc.) the slower the game is gonna get. Hordes just aren't practical.

[Coidzor]

Oh really? Is that how that works? Okay because so many make it seem as though it's just *Bam* you have an army at your hands. Some threads can be misleading I see :smallfrown:

Even 3 minions can bog things down. 12 or so is a lot worse without careful measures to streamline things.

And while they're very vulnerable to AoEs and fragile, a large number of skeletal archers can be used, IIRC anyway, to make volley attacks using the rules from Heroes of Battle, which can be somewhat annoying.

The real scary thing is the spell Animate Dread Warrior(Unapproachable East) combined with spell-stitching(complete arcane?). 1/day take any enemy that's roughly humanoid and has class levels and make it into your minion with those class levels. AKA, bosses, minibosses, lieutenants of the BBEG... Even with the XP costs.

It's still not something to discount even if they have to pay XP costs, as it is basically a cohort that can be a higher level than they are that doesn't get XP. If they get their hands on a divine caster, those can still be useful even after they've become less relevant for combat because of their ability to cast healing spells/buffs/utility spells/restoration without eating away at the PCs' personal resources.

Command undead can be used to get a lot of minions (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=154158) though.

[Tvtyrant]

Undead minions are amazing if you have a DFI Bard (even better with one using both normal inspire courage and the DFI going at once). Then you get to add 5d6 to each attack, which with the boosts is going to hit and do a lot of damage if they have natural attacks. (5d6=17 average damage, multiply by 2 for skeleton claws and again by number of minions)

[Isaac Malus]

Oh wow really? :smalleek: That much? I'm not too familiar with many of these things... maybe I should hit the books... Again. *Grabs brainy specs*

[Doxkid]

Even without important NPCs getting reanimated, you have to deal with the largest, strongest monsters you throw at the party coming back to fight for him. And whatever monsters they happened to find dead already.

Giants, Outsiders that were called (not summoned) and dragons are all common threats at level 10 ish (dread necros really start reanimating at 8, but a pale master dip will make it free). Making them stronger than normal, suicidally loyal, faster and then putting them at the beck and call of an arcane caster with many save-or-suck/save-or-die spells will make it painful to balance against him and the rest of his party if he does not paly smart.

Summon Undead is simply a fast way to create an undead spawn/get a minion he didn't have prepared and, like normal Summon Monster spells, does not count against any control limit.

[motoko's ghost]

There are spells that stop the targets body from being reanimated, pretty sure its in the spell compendium. If they are starting to greatly overshadow the other players through horde,etc. just send in a paladin/cleric of pelor duo with that spell on it, should be interesting and its not DM fiat as that is what those organisations would do if they heard of a necromancer organising a massive undead horde.