Spell steal tricks?

[Bloodgruve]

Hey playgrounders,

I'm running a Beguiler9/Spelltheif1/Daggerspell Mage10 in a 3.P game. Looking for ways improve my spell list. Taking the Master Spellthief for full spell stealing (I believe this works?), and Magical Training/Versatile Spellcaster for a spellbook and a way to cast from it. Also doing the Trickster Spellthief ACF for a few more.

Is there a way to retain stolen spells? Will a Spell Storing item work to deposit a stolen spell? Is there any ways to input a stolen spell into your spellbook? Are there any other fun things you can do with stolen spells?

Input appreciated.

Blood~

[dextercorvia]

Master Spellthief increases the level of spell you can steal, but not the level of spell you can retain.

Magical Training, only lets you learn those three cantrips. You still have no mechanic for learning other spells that you write into your book, so Versatile Spellcaster won't let you cast them.

For spellthief fun, my necrotic apprentice trick works.

Spellthief 20 with Apprentice(Spellcaster), Mother Cyst, (Any) Bloodline, and Master Spellthief, has full CL instead of half, and an extra 20 spells known (3 1st, 3 2nd, 2 each 3rd-9th) so you always have something useful to do with stolen spell energy.

[Talionis]

Master Spellthief increases the level of spell you can steal, but not the level of spell you can retain.

This is RAW, RAI many DM's will allow it to also work for the number of spells you can retain too. Or just use a House rule. Spell theft is such a narrow power. Can it be abused absolutely, but without fighting casters you are greatly diminished.

I've seen Arcane Disciple advised. As well as the prestige classes like Sandshaper from Sandstorm and Fiend Blooded (I think) from Heroes of Horror.

I really enjoy the steal spell like ability at level 5 of Spellthief. It has limits too on what it can steal, but being able to take abilities from your own Familiar or Summons can be a fun way to increase options and performance.

[dextercorvia]

This is RAW, RAI many DM's will allow it to also work for the number of spells you can retain too. Or just use a House rule. Spell theft is such a narrow power. Can it be abused absolutely, but without fighting casters you are greatly diminished.

He asked if it worked, not if his DM would allow it.

[Talionis]

I asked if it worked, not if his DM would allow it.

Dex, I wasn't trying to correct you. You gave the correct answer. I was just telling him not to give up since much of the feat makes little sense without being able to hold the spell. Its a good thing to talk to DM's about.

[dextercorvia]

Dex, I wasn't trying to correct you. You gave the correct answer. I was just telling him not to give up since much of the feat makes little sense without being able to hold the spell. Its a good thing to talk to DM's about.

Sorry -- guess I'm a little touchy today. Also, I had horrible pronoun usage. Fix'd

[Fax Celestis]

You can use wracking touch to trigger sneak attack even in conditions you wouldn't normally be able to. Also, check here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=44299).

[Bloodgruve]

You are correct, the feat doesn't stat that you can retain the spells but that seems to me to remove the purpose of the feat. Lets assume that my DM allows level stacking for spell retention. This leave an hour after the spell is stolen.

It was determined in another thread that spells in a spell book are known and learned. To input a spell into a spell book you need to read the spell or know the spell and then make a spellcraft check after 24hrs. I have not seen anything stating that I couldn't, with this build, write spells in a book as long as the spellcraft succeeds. Versatile Casting would then be used to cast a known spell, dropping the beguiler spells for one out of the book. This is how I am reading it anyways.

TY for the input

Blood~

[dextercorvia]

You are correct, the feat doesn't stat that you can retain the spells but that seems to me to remove the purpose of the feat. Lets assume that my DM allows level stacking for spell retention. This leave an hour after the spell is stolen.

It was determined in another thread that spells in a spell book are known and learned. To input a spell into a spell book you need to read the spell or know the spell and then make a spellcraft check after 24hrs. I have not seen anything stating that I couldn't, with this build, write spells in a book as long as the spellcraft succeeds. Versatile Casting would then be used to cast a known spell, dropping the beguiler spells for one out of the book. This is how I am reading it anyways.

TY for the input

Blood~

This is only true for a Wizard, and anyone who has an ability to use a spellbook like a Wizard. Magical Training only gives you the ability to prepare 3 cantrips that are in the feat granted spellbook. It gives you no mechanism for learning new spells.

[Fax Celestis]

Godsblood Spelltheft (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070606) should be one of your feats. Using this you can get access to any one of these domains: Air, Animal, Arcana, Bestial, Cavern, Chaos, Darkness, Death, Evil, Fate, Good, Healing, Illusion, Knowledge, Law, Luck, Magic, Moon, Nobility, Pestilence, Planning, Plant, Portal, Protection, Rune, Scalykind, Spell, Strength, Storm, Time, Trade, Travel, Trickery, Tyranny, Undeath, War. Most of these domains have good spells to burn stolen spells into.

Good spells available from nonstandard domains:
Arcana: antimagic field, imbue with spell ability, spell turning, disjunction
Bestial: claws of the savage, spread of savagery
Cavern: secure shelter, meld into stone, passwall, earthquake, imprisonment
Illusion: silent image, minor image, displacement, persistent image, mislead
Moon: faerie fire, moon beam, moonblade
Nobility: divine favor, magic vestment, geas/quest
Pestilence: summon swarm, contagion, poison, plague of rats, otyugh swarm
Planning: augury, heroes' feast, time stop
Portal: summon monster I, dimensional anchor, dimension door, teleport, etherealness, gate
Rune: glyph of warding, explosive runes, lesser/greater planar binding, teleportation circle
Scalykind: poison, eyebite, creeping doom, shapechange
Spell: silence, mnemonic enhancer, anyspell, greater anyspell, limited wish, antimagic field
Storm: call lightning, sleet storm, ice storm, summon monster VI, control weather
Trade: gembomb, sending, fabricate, true seeing, magnificent mansion, mind blank
Tyranny: command, greater command, geas/quest, mass charm person, dominate monster
Undeath: desecrate, animate dead, death ward, create undead, control undead, create greater undead, energy drain

At the very least, if you have one of these domains, your wizard or cleric buddy doesn't need to prepare spells from said domain, as you can simply borrow a spell of the appropriate level and cast it for them, at their full caster level.

[Bloodgruve]

This is only true for a Wizard, and anyone who has an ability to use a spellbook like a Wizard. Magical Training only gives you the ability to prepare 3 cantrips that are in the feat granted spellbook. It gives you no mechanism for learning new spells.

In an effort to understand RAW and its nature better..

Magical Training states; If you choose to cast spells as a wizard, the DC for saves against your spells is 10 + your Int modifi er. You have a spellbook with three 0-level spells of your choice from the sorcerer/ wizard list. You prepare your spells exactly as a wizard does.

Arcane Writing states; Once a wizard understands a new spell, she can record it into her spellbook.

Is recording a spell strictly a Wizard function?

If you have a spell book why would you not be able to place more spells in it?

Is it stated anywhere that you can not record spells if you make the check? Or is this simply only stated in specific class descriptions?

If you gain a spellbook and you 'read magic' to understand the spells does that mean that you know/have learned the spell?

If a wizard gains a spell book can he use it as long as he can read the spell?

If you scribe a scroll does that mean you know/have learned the spell?

Again, all to understand RAW better. Sorry for all the questions.

TYVM
Blood~

[dextercorvia]

Is recording a spell strictly a Wizard function?

No, but learning a spell you copy is limited to Wizards and those like Wu Jen that have the same explicit ability.

If you have a spell book why would you not be able to place more spells in it?

You may. As Curmudgeon likes to say, you can even put soup recipes in there. However, unless you have a mechanic to learn a spell (like a Wizard, there is nothing in RAW that allows you to prepare the spell you record.

Is it stated anywhere that you can not record spells if you make the check? Or is this simply only stated in specific class descriptions?

No, but the list of classes that can learn spells by recording them is small and explicit.

If you gain a spellbook and you 'read magic' to understand the spells does that mean that you know/have learned the spell?

No. It means you recognize the writing, and have deciphered the text. In the case of Wizard, it means you are ready to begin the Spellcraft check to learn the spell if you choose to do so.

If a wizard gains a spell book can he use it as long as he can read the spell?

No. A wizard can only prepare spells he already knows from a 'borrowed' spellbook. He can either learn those spells by scribing them, or by attuning the spellbook(CArc).

If you scribe a scroll does that mean you know/have learned the spell?

No. Normally, you may only scribe a scroll of a spell you know. However, you may scribe a scroll in cooperation with someone else who is providing the spell, even if it is one you don't know. In that case, you don't learn the spell as part of the process.

[Bloodgruve]

Tyvm Dex,

One more for ya,

If you are able to record a spell into a spellbook do you know it opposed to learning it?

Your input is appreciated.

Blood~

[dextercorvia]

Tyvm Dex,

One more for ya,

If you are able to record a spell into a spellbook do you know it opposed to learning it?

Your input is appreciated.

Blood~

Wizards know spells that they learn.

[Bloodgruve]

Would a 1 level dip into Wizard allow you to learn spells then? Could a lvl 1 wizard learn a 9th level spell if they made the skill check to record it even if they couldn't cast it?

Blood~

[Talionis]

Part of the disconnect is that Spelltheft can only cast the spell you steal or a spell thief spell you know. Even if you know the spell for another class of casting, such as Wizard you cannot use the wizard spells with the energy captured with your spell theft ability.

[dextercorvia]

Would a 1 level dip into Wizard allow you to learn spells then? Could a lvl 1 wizard learn a 9th level spell if they made the skill check to record it even if they couldn't cast it?

Blood~

Yes. A Wizard can learn a spell that he is not yet able to cast. However, Talionis is absolutely correct. Spellthieves may only use steal spell to cast the stolen spell, or a spellthief spell they know.

[Bloodgruve]

Actually, and I apologize for not stating this in a better way, the questions are all an effort to expand my spell list.

I am looking to use the Versatile Spellcaster feat to tap into the different spell lists and spells known. I am running Beguiler as my main casting progression. Master Spellthief to steal spells and use with Arcane Strike when able as levels improve (pending DM approval of retained thefts with the feat).

My goal with Magical Training was to simply gain a spellbook to record spells and 'know' them, using Versatile Spellcaster as the only means to cast from the book. Maybe a dip in Wizard is required instead of Magical Training feat.

Ultimatly I wanted to know if there was a way to permanently retain a stolen spell.

TY again for the input

Blood~

[dextercorvia]

You can't use Versatile Spellcaster to make spells count as Spellthief spells. You can use it (in the RAWest sense, YMMV) to cast spells you know from other class' abilities using Spellthief slots, bu that isn't the same.

You want some way to add spells to the spellthief class. I find the following to be useful. My aforementioned Necrotic Apprentice Trick. A one level dip in Sand Shaper. Exalted Arcanist(not for everyone) adds two spells known at first level, and adds the entire list of Sanctified Spells at 5th level.

The best thing about these abilities is that they can add spells known of a higher level than a spellthief could normally learn, therefore giving you ammo to use your higher level stolen spell energy with.

Spellthieves have no mechanism for learning a stolen spell. A wizard, or other scribing class, could steal and copy (with sufficient shenanigans) level 5(maybe 6) or lower spell, but would know it as a Wizard (or Wu Jen, etc.), so it couldn't be cast again later in place of a stolen spell. It could be cast from the beguiler side, using Versatile spellcaster.

I think the build you want is something like:

Human Beguiler1/Wizard3/Spellthief1/Sandshaper1/UltimateMagus10/X4

Feats
H Quicken Spell
1. Versatile Spellcaster
3. Shape or Chain Spell or other metamagic
6. Master Spellthief
9. Rapid Metamagic (you are casting spontaneously out of Beguiler and Wizard Slots)
12. Residual Magic
15. Metamagic
18. Metamagic

X needs to be Wizard full casting.

You will be 3 casting levels behind, which you will make up for with Versatile Spellcaster, and using stolen spells to cast Sandshaper spells.

[Bloodgruve]

^ is great. Think I'd run Sand Shaper 2 for the Sand Form ability cuz it looks fun.

TY
Blood~