Is using MM 2 "OK"?

[Balor01]

I had this discussion with a friend of mine regarding MM2. I am DM and am recently sort of cracking open MM2. During past years my players discovered many tricks creating PCs so "squishy Wizard" is now "Save or suck" monster, sword-and-board is maneuvers-spewing Warblade, Cleric is ... well, Cleric - a well armored caster able to pwn things by himslef, etc., etc.

Anyway, it is all faaar from ideas, presented in PHB.

So, I decided to delve into this famous MM2 and I find monsters quite awesome. These things might really make a dent in my PCs. But this friend of mine says that is sort of cheating, because MM2 monsters were made closer to 3.0 rules then 3.5 rules.

So I would like your opinion on this. And I am not talking adamantine horror here. Just regular MM2 monsters.

[Hirax]

You can't disqualify any book on the basis that it contains something broken. Some books have worse things than others, but as long as you cherry pick appropriately for your campaign, there is no book that should be outright banned, because nearly all books contain broken things, PHB included. Dive in, MM2 does have quite a few awesome monsters.

[Flickerdart]

MM2 isn't "closer" to 3.0, it is 3.0 - but an update booklet (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20030718a) has been released by WotC to make everything in it 3.5.

However, the book is still very wonky - the adamantine horror wasn't its only flaw. In a thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187046), on these forums, people started delving into how wacky the rest of the book's monsters are. I recommend reading through the thread before using the MMII.

[The-Mage-King]

Here's a question for you:


Are you the DM?


If yes, then no, it isn't cheating. Rule 0, remember?


And yeah. The monsters in MM2 ARE awesome.

[Serpentine]

Of course it's okay. It is, indeed, 3.0, but there's an official Errata to make it work better with 3.5.

[zanetheinsane]

There's no such thing as "cheating" for a DM resource. Delve through all of the DM resources for 3.0e, 4e, 2e, 1e. Doesn't matter. Look into another game system for that matter. Somebody "made up" all of the monsters in every single monster manual, why should that stop you from making up some?

Once you learn how to create monster stat blocks and calculate CR appropriately, you can easily convert anything to 3.5 to be honest. Take your newly-minted monster and run a few dummy numbers against your players' expected ACs, attack rolls, and saves and see if it's too powerful.

The only thing I promise my players is that any monster I make will be "rules legal" to the extent that it plays within the system that created it. If you start making monster that arbitrarily can do things outside the stipulation of the rules your players will start to lose trust in you that you are playing "fairly".

[Runestar]

You may like to read the thread in my signature first. Mm2 is chock full of cool monsters but I find their balance really leaves much to be desired.

[Curmudgeon]

Many monster abilities in Monster Manual II get brought into line by this passage, from page 4 of the 3.5 update booklet:
In addition to the information below, remember the following general rule: If a monster has a common special attack, special quality, or subtype, refer to the glossary in the revised Monster Manual instead of the monster’s entry in its original sourcebook. Likewise, use the type definitions and properties, such as undead or construct traits, in the Monster Manual in preference to the ones in the original sourcebooks. Also use the rules for improving monsters in Chapter 4 of the Monster Manual, the information on monster creation in Chapter 5, and the new feat definitions in Chapter 6 rather than the material in the first 21 pages of the Monster Manual II.

[Eldan]

Of course, you just have to ask yourself if you really think your player's characters can handle some of the stuff inside it. Some of those monsters have CRs that are just laughable.

[Big Fau]

But this friend of mine says that is sort of cheating, because MM2 monsters were made closer to 3.0 rules then 3.5 rules.

Using 3.0 material in 3.5 is not cheating, it's even in the DMG that you can use 3.5 with 3.0 material:


This revision is compatible with existing products, and these products can be used with the revision with only minor adjustments.

However, several 3.0 splats have been given updates on WotC's website, and several others have had material printed in them reprinted in 3.5 splats (Complete Warrior, for example, "borrows" a lot from Sword and Fist).

[FearlessGnome]

Is the intention to kill the party without giving them a fair chance? If no, then yes, go ahead and use whatever books you like. Your players are making characters that are more and more powerful. If monsters don't get tougher as well, then everything will be easy mode, and no fun for anyone. Just keep things balanced, and nobody should have any reason to call it cheating.

Now, about this crab I heard about...

[Cieyrin]

Now, about this crab I heard about...

That Damn Crab isn't MM2, though, that's Far Corners of the World (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20040221a). :smallwink:

[Sir_Elderberry]

I find the concept of books being off-limits to the DM very odd. Since you're the DM you can bring in homebrew, you can refluff existing monsters to meet your needs, etc. Players limiting your monster choice just seems a bit, well, nonsensical.

Which makes me imagine a table where ToB maneuvers show up on enemies as exotic techniques from a faraway land, while the players have no access to it at all--or considering my players, no knowledge of it. That might be kinda mean though.

[Lord Il Palazzo]

I find the concept of books being off-limits to the DM very odd. Since you're the DM you can bring in homebrew, you can refluff existing monsters to meet your needs, etc. Players limiting your monster choice just seems a bit, well, nonsensical.

Which makes me imagine a table where ToB maneuvers show up on enemies as exotic techniques from a faraway land, while the players have no access to it at all--or considering my players, no knowledge of it. That might be kinda mean though.I would only limit the sources that I use as a DM in cases where my players only have a very limited range of sources and even then I'd avoid using certain concepts that were off limits to the players rather than whole books. For example, if my players are playing core only, I wouldn't throw Tome of Battle maneuvers at them but if there's a non-core monster I want to use that "plays by the rules" the players have access to, I'll use it.

[Axinian]

I actually really like MM2, use it all the time. Just avoid Adamantine Horrors and you're all set.

[Cieyrin]

I actually really like MM2, use it all the time. Just avoid Adamantine Horrors and you're all set.

IDK, Chronotyryns are also in the MM2. I like 'em but...ye gods...

[arguskos]

IDK, Chronotyryns are also in the MM2. I like 'em but...ye gods...
Seriously, Chronotyryns. What. The. Balls. :smallyuk:

That entire book is pretty kkkyeah in so many respects. Same with Fiend Folio, though it's better on the whole.

[Hirax]

Chronotyryns are from Fiend Folio, not MM2.

[Cieyrin]

Chronotyryns are from Fiend Folio, not MM2.

My mistake. Still, though, Fiend Folio has some crazyness to it, too.

[missmvicious]

I use MM2 and we don't even play optimized games. I don't really see the problem.

[Big Fau]

I use MM2 and we don't even play optimized games. I don't really see the problem.

Page 47-48. Read through the SLAs, and then look at the challenge ratings.

[FMArthur]

Meenlocks are a favorite MM2 monster around here, and I gotta admit they are pretty outrageously creepy in a good way.

Its CR isn't quite as far off as MMII's bad ones, but does need work. If played like the stalker it is, it could reasonably be expected to win against a level 3 party on its own. Two of its abilities completely disable characters for a long time on a failed save, target different saves, and do not interfere with one another action-wise (one is a free aura and the other takes place on either of its claw attacks).

Another ability is a 60ft dimension door every 2 rounds, and another one is a 300ft Wisdom damage attack that can soften the party up for its fear attack or can be used repeatedly over long periods of time to render characters unconscious from Wisdom loss. A +16 Hide modifier, accompanying 300ft telepathy and a habitat of burrows can give them a pretty easy time of it if they decide to do that. Meenlocks live in groups and abduct players when they knock them out, smuggle them into their tiny crawlspace burrows and touch them until they become a Meenlock, which can only be reversed by Miracle and Wish.

They are basically a unique nightmare foe that promises a fate worse than death if you let them catch you. Pretty rare for a low-level critter!

[DrDeth]

OK? Sure. But just don’t get the idea that the challenge ratings are anywhere near correct. Read the monster description carefully before tossing the monster at the party.

[Malachei]

Monster Manual II is as good or bad as most other sources, IMO.

In general, Challenge Ratings are an approximation, and they may fit one party, but overtax another, depending on party composition and optimization level.

And of course, they only fit the naked monster, not the setting: some monster excel when the enemy cannot fly etc.

Also, monsters can become a different challenge when combined, similar to some spells, which are average on their own but deadly in combination.

[Dr.Epic]

It don't know why it wouldn't be okay. It's a 3.5 book. And it's got great monster to spice things up.

[Eldariel]

It has a huge chunk of the classic monsters that didn't make it to MM. There's no excuse for excluding it. That said, as with all WoTC material, you have to gauge and adjust everything you use manually since the systems WoTC has in place for such purposes are worthless. That goes triply for MM2.

But yeah, you are the DM. You can use self-created monsters with no written stats if you like. There's absolutely nothing "wrong" with using monsters from an official 3.0 book with a 3.5 update.

[Calanon]

Page 47-48. Read through the SLAs, and then look at the challenge ratings.

WHAT IS THIS!? I DON'T UNDERSTAND!My reaction at seeing the Adamantine Horror

[Curmudgeon]

WHAT IS THIS!? I DON'T UNDERSTAND!My reaction at seeing the Adamantine Horror
Note that only one Adamantine Horror is believed to exist in all the D&D multiverse, so it's not a credible threat. Either you learn about the thing and decide specifically to go up against it, or it doesn't matter; any DM who drops the thing unexpectedly on you deserves a mutiny.

[PlzBreakMyCmpAn]

Shame no forums have split-screen mashup capabilities. I'd pair these ones with the others wondering if dnd is too eas

[Big Fau]

Shame no forums have split-screen mashup capabilities. I'd pair these ones with the others wondering if dnd is too eas

You don't even say his name and you go missing...

[MeeposFire]

It don't know why it wouldn't be okay. It's a 3.5 book. And it's got great monster to spice things up.

No its a 3.0 book. Still usable in 3.5 but not a 3.5 book. The biggest issue is the CRs of the critters. While CR is never even close an exact science MM2 is REALLY bad at it.