Zen Archer?

[Turkagent]

So a few people from my regular group can't make it so I'm having everyone roll up some level 5's for a 1-2 shot session(who can make it). Someone mentioned that they know something about a "Zen" archer class. I found a wiki on it but... no idea if its just some homebrew class or if there is a book for it.

EDIT: I know there is a feat called Zen Archery but I"m talking about a class.

[Aegis013]

There's a feat called Zen Archery, which allows ranged attacks to made with your Wisdom mod instead of your Dex mod. That might be what it is.

[Cog]

If they're talking about a class rather than a feat, there's the Soulbow, which does have some synergy with the Zen Archery feat.

[Turkagent]

YEah, you posted that right as I edited.

This is apparently what he saw: http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Zen_Archer_%283.5e_Class%29 that made him ask me if he could make it.

[Gavinfoxx]

Zen Archery is a feat from complete warrior.

If you want the quintessential zen archer, just read the quickstart cleric archer handbook:

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10961.0

The Zen Archer class is a blatantly homebrew class...

If you want an archery focused monk, my favorite monk remix class (also homebrew), has an archery option:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=150122

[Cog]

As for the Zen Archer class, while dandwiki homebrew, it's certainly not as unbalanced as a lot of what's to be found there. At a glance, it's slightly better than a normal Monk, but not by far.

[Curious]

You are thinking of the Pathfinder Monk archetype. You can find it on the PFSRD.

[Ravens_cry]

With Guided (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/magic-weapons-non-core/weapon-property---guided), it turns a notoriously MAD class basically monostat. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo---monk-archetypes/zen-archer) And to answer the question based on wording, the example item in the source book was a crossbow, so yes, it is meant to be used with Ranged weapons, RAI.

[Viktyr Gehrig]

There is a Zen Archer Monk archetype (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo---monk-archetypes/zen-archer) in Pathfinder that replaces some of the Monk's normal class abilities with enhanced archery abilities. It synergizes really well with the Soulbow, and the Pathfinder version of the Soulknife (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/soulknife) also has some good Wisdom synergy and useful class features.

Zen Archer Monk 4/Soulknife 1/Soulbow 1 into Psychic Fist is really good, and even in a low-psionics game you should be able to persuade your DM to let you use the optional rule about psionic PrCs and Soulknife.

[NamelessNPC]

There's a PF monk archetype called zen monk, it probably has all you want

link (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk)

archetypes in the bottom



edit: bah, ninjas

[Ravens_cry]

No, no, in this case you, good sir, have been monked:smallamused:

[Psyren]

There is a Zen Archer Monk archetype (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo---monk-archetypes/zen-archer) in Pathfinder that replaces some of the Monk's normal class abilities with enhanced archery abilities. It synergizes really well with the Soulbow, and the Pathfinder version of the Soulknife (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/soulknife) also has some good Wisdom synergy and useful class features.

Zen Archer Monk 4/Soulknife 1/Soulbow 1 into Psychic Fist is really good, and even in a low-psionics game you should be able to persuade your DM to let you use the optional rule about psionic PrCs and Soulknife.

Better yet, use the PF version of the Soulbow (Soulbolt archetype) from Psionics Expanded. Then combine that with the Gifted Blade archetype, also from Psionics Expanded. Now you have a psionic ranger, only with much better powers, and who tosses all the nature fluff to be a walking machine-gun.

[Douglas]

Looking at that pathfinder archetype, I just have to wonder what they were thinking when they put in this combination:

A zen archer cannot use Rapid Shot or Manyshot when making a flurry of blows with his bow.

A zen archer’s bonus feats must be taken from the following list:

Combat Reflexes, Deflect Arrows, Dodge, Far Shot, Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot, and Rapid Shot.

At 6th level, the following feats are added to the list:

Focused Shot*, Improved Precise Shot, Manyshot, Mobility, and Parting Shot*.
:smallconfused:

[Urpriest]

Looking at that pathfinder archetype, I just have to wonder what they were thinking when they put in this combination:


:smallconfused:

To be fair, unless they can flurry as a standard now in Pathfinder, Manyshot is still relevant. But yeah, why would anyone take Rapid Shot as a bonus feat if they're unable to Flurry at the same time, since Flurry already gives an extra attack? Silly PF, tricks are for kids.

[Douglas]

To be fair, unless they can flurry as a standard now in Pathfinder, Manyshot is still relevant.
Not Pathfinder's version of Manyshot - they made it a modifier for full attacks (the first attack shoots two arrows), not a multi-arrow standard action.

Oh, and to add more incentive to always Flurry even if for some reason you took both feats, Flurry upgrades your Monk medium BAB to full for the Flurry attacks. Yes, this can potentially grant you yet another bonus attack, in addition to boosting the attack bonus of all your attacks by between +1 and +5 (partially offset by the -2 penalty).

[Psyren]

To be fair, unless they can flurry as a standard now in Pathfinder, Manyshot is still relevant. But yeah, why would anyone take Rapid Shot as a bonus feat if they're unable to Flurry at the same time, since Flurry already gives an extra attack? Silly PF, tricks are for kids.

Well, it's unlikely to come up often, but Rapid Shot works with any weapon whereas the Zen Archer's flurry only works with bows and shuriken (IIRC.) So if you grab some throwing knives off the barroom floor Rapid Shot will let you pseudo-flurry with them.

I still wouldn't blow a feat on it (even a bonus feat) but it could be relevant occasionally.

[El Dorado]

Rapid Shot is a prereq for Snap Shot and Improved Snap Shot, which allow you to threaten squares with your bow.

[Douglas]

Rapid Shot is a prereq for Snap Shot and Improved Snap Shot, which allow you to threaten squares with your bow.
And the archetype itself gives that ability for free at level 9. It's limited to your unarmed strike reach, but that still means Snap Shot is redundant and only Improved Snap Shot actually gives anything useful - and even that can be rendered redundant by getting bigger or otherwise increasing your reach.

[El Dorado]

And the archetype itself gives that ability for free at level 9. It's limited to your unarmed strike reach, but that still means Snap Shot is redundant and only Improved Snap Shot actually gives anything useful - and even that can be rendered redundant by getting bigger or otherwise increasing your reach.

Ah, missed that. I got nothing then.:smallwink:

[Telonius]

YEah, you posted that right as I edited.

This is apparently what he saw: http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Zen_Archer_%283.5e_Class%29 that made him ask me if he could make it.

Just FYI, that is a homebrew class. You can tell since it has the "Rating" box underneath the class name, and down at the bottom it has "Back to Main Page → 3.5e Homebrew..." (It took me a while to figure out the site's display too; I really wish they'd have a banner splash or something in the title to indicate Homebrew stuff).

[Qwertystop]

No, no, in this case you, good sir, have been monked:smallamused:

Can I sig this?

[Ravens_cry]

Can I sig this?
By all means.:smallsmile:

[Viktyr Gehrig]

Better yet, use the PF version of the Soulbow (Soulbolt archetype) from Psionics Expanded. Then combine that with the Gifted Blade archetype, also from Psionics Expanded. Now you have a psionic ranger, only with much better powers, and who tosses all the nature fluff to be a walking machine-gun.

Soulbolt is a trap. It doesn't give you +Wis to damage. I agree with Gifted Blade, but Gifted Blade X/Soulbow 2 is better than Soulbolt X+2 in most important ways-- being able to shape your mind arrows' damage type being the only exception I can think of.

[Psyren]

Soulbolt is a trap. It doesn't give you +Wis to damage. I agree with Gifted Blade, but Gifted Blade X/Soulbow 2 is better than Soulbolt X+2 in most important ways-- being able to shape your mind arrows' damage type being the only exception I can think of.

The Focused Offense bladeskill from Unlimited Possibilities gives the Soulknife Wis to attack and damage as long as s/he maintains psionic focus. It is not on the list of prohibited bladeskills for Soulbolts, making it fair game.

[Novawurmson]

The Focused Offense bladeskill from Unlimited Possibilities gives the Soulknife Wis to attack and damage as long as s/he maintains psionic focus. It is not on the list of prohibited bladeskills for Soulbolts, making it fair game.

I asked about that on the forum. Jeremy said it only applies when you would be getting Strength to damage anyway - so short-range only.

[Rubik]

The biggest problem with Zen Archery is that it doesn't qualify you for any Dex-based archery feats. This makes me sad.

[Ceaon]

Ironic, since the point of Zen Archery is making you SAD.

[Heliomance]

There is a Zen Archer Monk archetype (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo---monk-archetypes/zen-archer) in Pathfinder that replaces some of the Monk's normal class abilities with enhanced archery abilities. It synergizes really well with the Soulbow, and the Pathfinder version of the Soulknife (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/soulknife) also has some good Wisdom synergy and useful class features.

Zen Archer Monk 4/Soulknife 1/Soulbow 1 into Psychic Fist is really good, and even in a low-psionics game you should be able to persuade your DM to let you use the optional rule about psionic PrCs and Soulknife.
Can you get some Tash in there? Seems to me it might work well.


Not Pathfinder's version of Manyshot - they made it a modifier for full attacks (the first attack shoots two arrows), not a multi-arrow standard action.

...huh. So, what is the point of PF manyshot over rapidshot then? Doesn't seem to have any advantages.

[Swooper]

This is apparently what he saw: http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Zen_Archer_%283.5e_Class%29 that made him ask me if he could make it.
That class looks about as hilariously underpowered as the regular monk. I love how it gets an ability that is sort of like a ranged power attack, but only up to wis modifier instead of BAB, and at 18th level. :smallsigh:

[Emmerask]

For a sad class +10 at 18th level is pretty easy and without anything like shocktrooper for powerattack you likely shouldn´t decrease your to hit more then ~10 to have any chance of hitting the enemy ^^

So I wouldn´t really count that as extremely detrimental, however the class still looks kind of low powered :smallwink:

Oh and of course for min maxing bab is actually worse then stat dependency where I think +30 should be possible without too much rule bending :smallbiggrin:

[Swooper]

For a sad class +10 at 18th level is pretty easy and without anything like shocktrooper for powerattack you likely shouldn´t decrease your to hit more then ~10 to have any chance of hitting the enemy ^^

So I wouldn´t really count that as extremely detrimental, however the class still looks kind of low powered :smallwink:

Oh and of course for min maxing bab is actually worse then stat dependency where I think +30 should be possible without too much rule bending :smallbiggrin:
Fair enough - but my main point was that this ability comes way too late. Pathfinder makes a similar ability (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/deadly-aim-combat) (note that power attack is equally lame in PF) available by a single feat as early as 1st level. :smalltongue:

[Eisirt]

Not Pathfinder's version of Manyshot - they made it a modifier for full attacks (the first attack shoots two arrows), not a multi-arrow standard action.

Oh, and to add more incentive to always Flurry even if for some reason you took both feats, Flurry upgrades your Monk medium BAB to full for the Flurry attacks. Yes, this can potentially grant you yet another bonus attack, in addition to boosting the attack bonus of all your attacks by between +1 and +5 (partially offset by the -2 penalty).

From the 3.5 PHB, page 40-41
When using flurry of blows, a monk may attack only with unarmed strikes or with special monk weapons (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham). She may attack with unarmed strikes and special monk weapons interchangeably as desired.

From the Pathfinder Core Rulebook, page 57
Flurry of Blows (Ex): Starting at 1st level, a monk can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action. When doing so he may make one additional attack using any combination of unarmed strikes or attacks with a special monk weapon (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham) as if using the Two-Weapon Fighting feat (even if the monk does not meet the prerequisites for the feat).
A monk cannot use any weapon other than an unarmed strike or a special monk weapon as part of a flurry of blows. A monk with natural weapons cannot use such weapons as part of a flurry of blows, nor can he make natural attacks in addition to his flurry of blows attacks.

Made bold for emphasis.

Stop applying feats to action they can not effect, you are getting people all excited over nothing.

While this means that a monk can flurry with an Elvencrafted Composite Longbow to use it as a quarterstaff and have the extra attacks ( and in PF more BAB to hit with) it would exclude him from using the bow for ranged attacks in the same round.

[Psyren]

I asked about that on the forum. Jeremy said it only applies when you would be getting Strength to damage anyway - so short-range only.

Even if that's ruled to be the case, you can instead just take the Greater Intuitive Shot feat from the same book, and add Wis to damage on all your attacks in a full-attack. You'd need another way to add Wis to attack but damage was always the harder part anyway.

[Heliomance]

From the 3.5 PHB, page 40-41
When using flurry of blows, a monk may attack only with unarmed strikes or with special monk weapons (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham). She may attack with unarmed strikes and special monk weapons interchangeably as desired.

From the Pathfinder Core Rulebook, page 57
Flurry of Blows (Ex): Starting at 1st level, a monk can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action. When doing so he may make one additional attack using any combination of unarmed strikes or attacks with a special monk weapon (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham) as if using the Two-Weapon Fighting feat (even if the monk does not meet the prerequisites for the feat).
A monk cannot use any weapon other than an unarmed strike or a special monk weapon as part of a flurry of blows. A monk with natural weapons cannot use such weapons as part of a flurry of blows, nor can he make natural attacks in addition to his flurry of blows attacks.

Made bold for emphasis.

Stop applying feats to action they can not effect, you are getting people all excited over nothing.

While this means that a monk can flurry with an Elvencrafted Composite Longbow to use it as a quarterstaff and have the extra attacks ( and in PF more BAB to hit with) it would exclude him from using the bow for ranged attacks in the same round.

From the Pathfinder SRD, Zen Archer archetype
Starting at 1st level, a zen archer can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action, but only when using a bow (even though it is a ranged weapon). He may not make a flurry of blows with his unarmed attacks or any other weapons. A zen archer does not apply his Strength bonus on damage rolls made with flurry of blows unless he is using a composite bow with a Strength rating.

A zen archer’s flurry of blows otherwise functions as normal for a monk of his level.

A zen archer cannot use Rapid Shot or Manyshot when making a flurry of blows with his bow.


Made bold for emphasis. You can flurry with a bow if you're a PF Zen Archer. You still can't use Manyshot, though.

[Eisirt]

Thank you for that addition, PF is not the system I use, and I merely posted the monk entry to complement the one I took from 3.5, but this makes it a lot more viable.

[Douglas]

...huh. So, what is the point of PF manyshot over rapidshot then? Doesn't seem to have any advantages.
No attack penalty for Manyshot, and you can use both at once to get 2 extra arrows instead of 1.